On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:50:32 -0400 "Susan E. Roser" <roser@iprimus.ca> writes: > TG 1 [1980]: 229, ["Mayflower Families To Date: A > Critical Examination", by Neil D. Thompson, F.A.S.G.] - in response > to the Soule, vol. 3, MF silver book published in 1980 ... Susan - It is very good to see you back. Perhaps you can answer a queation I posed to Jim. In addition to the Thompson article you cited, was there not another critical article comcerning MF5G v. 3 Soule, perhaps by Wakefield, published perhaps in TAG? I recall reading one, and I don't have local access to TG so I'm sure it wasn't the Thompson article. Dale H. Cook, Chief Engineer, WWWR Roanoke VA, WCQV Moneta VA, WKBA WZZI Vinton VA, WKPA WLNI WLVA WZZU Lynchburg VA

Beth asked: > I have been chasing a "Wynnette" all over the internet,and I was so excited to contact her. Well...she does descend from the Doan/Doane family through Hannah Ruhamah Doane and her second husband William Cromartie, but... > > She is one of those who believes that Stephen Hopkins' first wife was Constance Dudley!!! Question, if that information has absolutely no basis of fact, then how did she receive Mayflower Society Membership? So you suppose that she proved it so long ago, that they can't take it away from her? > > Just wondering > Beth ______________ Beth, It doesn't matter who Stephen Hopkins wife is - or who it was thought she was. The line goes thru Stephen Hopkins and his children, regardless of his wife's name. You didn't say which of his children the line is thru - I'm assuming it's thru an approved child - if so, then the identity of the mother has little bearing on it because the approval is based on the line carriers (not spouses). Of course the identity of the mother is important - and it was a great day when the baptism records were found in England to show that Stephen had a wife Mary who was the mother of Elizabeth, Constance & Giles. Susan E. Roser, Historian Canadian Society

Jim asked: > Is there any evidence that Jonathan SOULE who m. Christian B0SWORTH 29 > Feb 1735/6 in Rehoboth and m. 2nd Elizabeth ROUNDS 31 Dec 1745 in > Rehoboth is the son of Sylvanus^3(Nathaniel^2, George^1) & Mary (SLADE) > SOULE? > > I've checked the Roser books and MD but found nothing on any children > for Sylvanus & Mary. I also looked at Rounds' abstracts of Bristol Co. > wills and found that Mary's mother left a will that named her & husband > Sylvanus, but nothing regarding their children. > ______________________________ Jim, According to the new research in the updated Soule MFIPs, Jonathan Soule4 (Sylvanus3, Nathaniel2, George1) (who married as above) is listed of one of 5 children of Sylvanus Soule (#21) & Sarah Slead with the caveat: "While there is no absolute proof they are the children of Sylvanus, their close association in Tiverton makes it very likely they are." The children listed (under #21) are: #108, Nathaniel, b. c1710, m. Lydia Gifford #109, William, b. c1711, m. Jemima Baker, Keziah Gifford #110, Jonathan, b. c1712/3 (married as you have above) #111, Sarah, b. c1718, m. Remembrance Davis Sylvanus, m. int. Ruth Davis (n.f.r.) The source for the above is "Mayflower Families In Progress, George Soule of the Mayflower..." 3rd Ed., 1999, family #s as given above. I get uneasy when the MF or MFIP books say children are "likely" or when they state there is no proof. Does this mean the line is accepted or not? I have had cases with applicants where the lines have and have not been accepted. In this case, there is no note saying that the line needs more proof before being accepted, so I'm assuming that the Soule researcher is satisfied with the line. However - note that TG 1 [1980]: 229, ["Mayflower Families To Date: A Critical Examination", by Neil D. Thompson, F.A.S.G.] - in response to the Soule, vol. 3, MF silver book published in 1980 - stated that "At least two purported children of Sylvanus3 Soule #21, Jonathan and Sarah, are so identified by elimination only." The only thing that seems to have changed since the 1980 MF book came out, is the inclusion of various deeds whereby Nathaniel, William, Jonathan and Sylvanus witnessed each other's deeds or were involved in the same deeds. The researcher has also shown that there was only one other Soule family in Tiverton at this time and all of his children appear to be accounted for. So, if this is your line Jim, looks like it's a Mayflower line. Susan E. Roser, Historian Canadian Society (PS - it's nice to be back, after a nasty computer virus and health problems, all of which have had me down for some time. Nice to see the list so active!) www.rootsweb.com/~canms/canada.html

I have been chasing a "Wynnette" all over the internet,and I was so excited to contact her. Well...she does descend from the Doan/Doane family through Hannah Ruhamah Doane and her second husband William Cromartie, but... She is one of those who believes that Stephen Hopkins' first wife was Constance Dudley!!! Question, if that information has absolutely no basis of fact, then how did she receive Mayflower Society Membership? So you suppose that she proved it so long ago, that they can't take it away from her? Just wondering Beth

Is there any evidence that Jonathan SOULE who m. Christian B0SWORTH 29 Feb 1735/6 in Rehoboth and m. 2nd Elizabeth ROUNDS 31 Dec 1745 in Rehoboth is the son of Sylvanus^3(Nathaniel^2, George^1) & Mary (SLADE) SOULE? I've checked the Roser books and MD but found nothing on any children for Sylvanus & Mary. I also looked at Rounds' abstracts of Bristol Co. wills and found that Mary's mother left a will that named her & husband Sylvanus, but nothing regarding their children. Jim Bullock Littleton, CO

Thanks Dale for sharing this filing info. Very much appreciated. Maybe I'll get organized. Joan

Hello, I am researching the Brightman family with the view to complete documentation on a line from Alden and Mullins. My line is as follows: John Alden, Elizabeth Alden1, Martha Pabodie2, Martha Seabury3, Mercy Sawyer4, Mary Read5 m. Henry Brightman. All of the above are proven in MF Silver Book 16. Henry is named as Mary Read's husband in her father's will. But I can't find Henry's bdate and place and his Troy, MA 26 May 1825 death source. They were married Jun 30, 1763 and that is found in the Freetown VR. (been told this, haven't seen it) Going on to Benjamin Brightman (son of Henry and Mary) Benjamin was b. 29 Sep 1763, and d. abt 3 Sep 1872, in Fall River…have dates but no source information. He married in Freetown, 4 Jul 1786, Sally Bicknell. Sally was born in Fall River 19 Jan 1766 and d. Fall River on 26 Oct 1845. Haven't seen the proofs on these dates. Benjamin and Sally Brightman had Betsey. She married (1)John Weaver and had a son John T. He died and she married (2) Abiel Peirce Booth. I have their marriage date from Middleboro VR. I can't find death information on Betsey Brightman Weaver Booth…Probably in Lakeville where Abiel died. They are my gggrands. From there I have proofs on everything I need down to me. I live in Wyoming where there is no genealogy library. Is there a CD that would have this information? Or source where I can search on line? Once I have the information verified I will write the various Counties for the proofs or the FH Library in Salt Lake. I assume this will suffice for Mayflower requirements. I would appreciate any guidance on these areas. Thanks so much for any help you can offer. Ginny (Booth) Core

I second Harlow's nomination of Dale as most valuable listmember! I'm a tad bit new at this - how does one get to the PERSI? I can't get to the library mentioned and don't subscribe to Ancestry. Any other way to see that material? Thank you, Terri

Hi All, I'm doing this again since I see the list is active right now. If you have ancestors that may be in Colonial CT, they can be found at the Colonial Connecticut Records Site: http://www.colonialct.uconn.edu/ P.S. For some, it is hard to get into the site. I try to go into it with a lower browzer with the ads off rather than on. Ellen Baker Washington State

Thanks BJRobins. I'll try your suggestion, maybe I'll get a nibble. Roseline

I have begun listing books that I own on the "Books We Own" resource here at RootsWeb. I thought that the readers of this list would like to know which books I have volunteered to do lookups in. Three that pertain to this list are "Of Plymouth Plantation," "Mourt's Relation" and "Three Visitors to Early Plymouth." To see which works I have listed visit: http://www.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/local/mailmerge.cgi/~bwo/templates/dhc1 There is a list of titles that you can open in the request form. Under "Owner Information:" you can click on a category (such as "Mayflower") to the right of "DHC1" to see all BWO listings in that category. You can then search that page for "DHC1" with your browser to get full descriptions of the books I've listed. I'll be adding new items from time to time. You can always ask through this list for lookups in those books, or you can submit a request through the link above. I subscribe to other lists (and just added some more today) and I'm trying to streamline lookup requests. Since I have many partial photocopies of Plymouth Colony vital records volumes and other sources that I've mentioned here this is the best place to ask for those lookups. I'm using the BWO resource mainly to list hard-to-find or rare works from my collection. BTW, I have some complete vital records volumes that I can do lookups in. The towns are: Attleborough, Cohasset, Duxbury, Kingston, Norton, Rochester, Scituate and Taunton. I also have the vital records pages from "Braintree Town Records." All of these are either on microfiche or are electronic copies (scans). Dale H. Cook, Chief Engineer, WWWR Roanoke VA, WCQV Moneta VA, WKBA WZZI Vinton VA, WKPA WLNI WLVA WZZU Lynchburg VA

On Mon, 24 Jun 2002 07:24:26 -0400 "Harlow Chandler" <chandler@firstva.com> writes: > ...The article by Elizabeth > Pearson White, C.G., F.A.S.G., "Finding_Mayflower_ Ancestors" which > precedes > the "New England Vital Records" article in this volume of NGSQ ... Harlow - Thanks - a copy of that article has been in my files for years and now I can enter >that< article in my NGSQ index file, too. Dale H. Cook, Chief Engineer, WWWR Roanoke VA, WCQV Moneta VA, WKBA WZZI Vinton VA, WKPA WLNI WLVA WZZU Lynchburg VA

On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:33:56 -0700 "Richard" <solutions@solanobiz.net> in the article "Re: [MFLR] New England Vital Records in the 17th Century - citation" writes: > The citation to the article mentioned by Dale (i.e. "New England > Vital > Records in the Seventeenth Century" by the late Ruth Wilder Sherman) > is: > > National Genealogical Society Quarterly (i.e. "NGSQ"), Volume 73, > No. 4 > (December 1985), pp. 277-289. > > Highly recommended reading! Richard - Thank you - I'll add that to my NGSQ index. As folks on the list have probably gathered I have in my files photocopies of many articles from genealogical periodicals, family genealogies and other works. I'm sure that many of you have drawers (or boxes or piles) of photocopies. I have a couple of filing cabinets full of the stuff. I'd like to share a couple of techniques that I use to let me quickly find any given photocopy. Perhaps others on the list would like to share information about their filing systems. The first technique is my filing system. When I started out I filed >everything< by surname. Beyond a certain point that got cumbersome, and, besides, some items such as the Sherman vital records article mentioned above don't belong under a surname. I switched to a four-part filing system. Part 1 holds photocopies of vital records pages, ordered by town. Each town has a seperate folder for births, marriages and deaths. I've been a registered user of Brother's Keeper since, I think, version 3-point-something. I write the BK number for each person in pencil in the margin of each photocopy next to every VR entry in my database for that person. I also pencil in BK numbers in other types of photocopies and in books that I own. Some of you may consider that defacing books and horrible, but I paid for the books and can do whatever I want with them. It is very useful to open up a book or pull out an article and be able to see immediately which people in it are in the database (and be able to find them in that database without a search). Part 2 is still organized by surname. It contains photocopies from books and magazines that pertain to specific families. I don't have a folder for every surname in the database, just those for whom I have more than a few pages to file. Other copies are filed with the family to which they most closely relate - I'll tell you how I find those below. Part 3 is also organized by surname, but contains birth, marriage and death certificates, as well as copies of probate files and deeds. Because these are more expensive and more difficult to obtain than photocopied pages from books and magazines I like to keep them safely away from the much-handled surname files. Most of the items in part 3 are fully transcribed on the computer and linked to individuals from within BK. That way I don't have to handle the originals very often - I can refer to the computer transcriptions. I also transcribe and link obituaries and other newspaper articles as well as items such as copies of cemetery lot records from cemetery offices. Part 4 holds items that don't belong anywhere else, such as the Ruth Wilder Sherman article mentioned above, passenger lists, cemetery records, census pages and anything else that pertains to multiple surnames. The second technique lets me find specific items in the files, especially magazine articles. I have a number of index files on the computer, one each for major journals such as NEHGR, MD, MQ, TAG, and NGSQ, as well as a catch-all. In each file are full source citations for articles from that publication sorted by publication date. An entry is flagged to show if it is cited in my database. Each entry also contains an item to show that I have a photocopy or an electronic copy (scan). When a copy is filed with a family other than that of the titles's surname the file folder is indicated. All articles used as database sources (and many that aren't) are in these indices which live in a dedicated folder on the hard drive. If I want, say, an article on the ancesrtry of Wright Bartlett, I need only remember that "Wright Bartlett" is in the title. In Windows Explorer I can use Tools / Find / Files or Folders / Advanced to search the index files in that folder for one containing "Wright Bartlett." The result of that search is the index file NEHGS.txt. I can open that file in an editor and search within that file for "Wright Bartlett." The search finds the article "Parentage of Wright Bartlett of Bridgewater" and the entry shows that I have cited it in the database and have a photocopy in the Packard surname file (Wright married Bethia Packard). Another benefit to the index files is that when I'm reading a magazine or book and see, say, "MD v. 15, p. 254" I can look in the index file for MD and see that it is a reference to the article "Samuel Packard's Will" and that I have a photocopy. Thanks to Richard's citation above the Sherman article on vital records is now in the index file for NGSQ. I instituted the filing system about 10 years ago and the magazine indices about 5 years ago. They have served me well. Although this system may not appeal to you I urge everyone who is not well organized to institute some kind of a filing system. It can save a lot of time and eliminate duplicated effort (and duplicate photocopies). BTW, a complete copy of the database, as well as all linked transcriptions and scanned photographs, all articles that I have electronic copies of, and the magazine index files, are duplicated on my laptop. I use LapLink to keep the laptop and desktop computers synchronized. That way I can enter information into BK or an index file on the laptop at a library and, when I get home, use LapLink to bring the desktop database and other files up to date. That also lets me have up-to-date files on the laptop in case I find myself downtown with some unexpexted free time and decide to visit the genealogy room at the city library. I also keep my Juno email files (and many other files for work) synchronized on both machines this way. Before I leave the house today I'll update the laptop and do the same when I return home at night. This proved most useful a few months ago when my desktop motherboard died. I was able to keep working on genealogy with the laptop until I got a new motherboard. Dale H. Cook, Chief Engineer, WWWR Roanoke VA, WCQV Moneta VA, WKBA WZZI Vinton VA, WKPA WLNI WLVA WZZU Lynchburg VA

***-----Original Message----- ***From: Richard [mailto:solutions@solanobiz.net] ***Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 12:34 AM ***To: MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com ***Subject: [MFLR] New England Vital Records in the 17th Century - citation *** *** ***The citation to the article mentioned by Dale (i.e. "New England Vital ***Records in the Seventeenth Century" by the late Ruth Wilder Sherman) is: *** ***National Genealogical Society Quarterly (i.e. "NGSQ"), Volume 73, No. 4 ***(December 1985), pp. 277-289. *** ***Highly recommended reading! *** ***Richard Richard, Thank you for the citation and it is indeed an excellent article. Anyone who looks up this one might also be interested in the article by Elizabeth Pearson White, C.G., F.A.S.G., "Finding_Mayflower_ Ancestors" which precedes the "New England Vital Records" article in this volume of NGSQ (begins p. 264). The White article has much information concerning where Mayflower families went when they left the Plymouth area.

*** While I'm here, is there anywhere to check on new "finds" concerning ***our Mayflower relatives? If you mean in general, there's always PERSI ("PERiodical Source Index" from the Allen County Public Library).

Amen, Harlow. Dale has been helpful to me, and probably a bunch of other folks, too. But that's what the listserv idea is about. Bruce Harlow Chandler wrote: > ***-----Original Message----- > ***From: Dale H Cook [mailto:radiotest@juno.com] > ***Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 7:45 PM > ***To: MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com > ***Subject: Re: [MFLR] What does intention mean? > *** > *** > ***On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:13:24 -0400 "Mark & Joyce" <mj2ewe@bright.net> > ***writes: > *** > ***> I was wondering if someone could explain the following phrase: > ***> > ***> >The marriage entry indicates that there is no record of an > ***> > intention... > *** > ***Joyce - > *** > ***In colonial New England couples were required to publicise their intent > ***to marry, or "marriage intention" (in other parts of the world sometimes > ***called "marriage banns"). The intention had to posted in a designated > ***public place, entered in the town record book, or announced at a public > ***gathering such as a church service. If there were no valid objections to > ***the marriage it could take place, usually two or three weeks after the > ***intention, depending on the year and location. This prevented people such > ***as the underaged and indentured servants from marrying without > ***permisiion. > > He's fast, he's thorough, and he seems to be always right. I'm hereby > nominating Dale as Most Valuable Lister of this year. > > Here, by way of illustration from PCR, Laws 1623-1682 (PCR 11:13), is one > relevant law from the early years of Plymouth Colony (bearing in mind that > as Dale said practices varied from time to time and place to place): > > "That none be allowed to marry that are under the covert of parents but by > their consent and approbation, but in case consent cannot be had then it > shall be with the consent of the Governor, or some assistant [there were > seven assistants] to whom the persons are knowne whose care it shall be to > see the marriage be fitt before it be allowed by him. And after approbation > be three several times published before the solemnising of it. or els in > places where there is no such meetings that contracts or agreements of > marriage may be so published, that then it shalbe lawful to publish them by > a writing thereof made and set upon the usual publike place for the space of > fifteen days, provided that the writing be under some magistrates hand or by > his order." > > ==== MAYFLOWER Mailing List ==== > Check out the Mayflower FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions)page at http://www.macatawa.org/~crich/mayfaq.htm .

On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:00:01 -0400 "Harlow Chandler" <chandler@firstva.com> writes: > He's fast, he's thorough, and he seems to be always right. The operative word here is "seems." When I make a goof it is usually pretty big. The fast part is easy. I have a good memory, and, more inportant for genealogy, well-organized references. To refresh my memory about intentions I pulled out "New England Vital Records in the Seventeenth Century" by Ruth Wilder Sherman. It was published in the National Genealogical Society Quarterly, but for once I don't know which volume. I've had it in my files for about 10 years. The most recent source citation is from 1985, so that narrows the possible dates of publication. I'll look it up when I get to the library. It gives a superb overview of the origins of, sources for, and problems with vital records. I'll post the exact reference when I get it - I think many of you will find it as illuminating as I have. Dale H. Cook, Chief Engineer, WWWR Roanoke VA, WCQV Moneta VA, WKBA WZZI Vinton VA, WKPA WLNI WLVA WZZU Lynchburg VA

BJRobins et al Everyone was most kind and my queries were all answered. However no one had any information or clues. I followed up on the suggestions, but again no info. Sorry about the ambiguity - must be my Canadian accent (grin). Roseline

***-----Original Message----- ***From: Dale H Cook [mailto:radiotest@juno.com] ***Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 7:45 PM ***To: MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com ***Subject: Re: [MFLR] What does intention mean? *** *** ***On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:13:24 -0400 "Mark & Joyce" <mj2ewe@bright.net> ***writes: *** ***> I was wondering if someone could explain the following phrase: ***> ***> >The marriage entry indicates that there is no record of an ***> > intention... *** ***Joyce - *** ***In colonial New England couples were required to publicise their intent ***to marry, or "marriage intention" (in other parts of the world sometimes ***called "marriage banns"). The intention had to posted in a designated ***public place, entered in the town record book, or announced at a public ***gathering such as a church service. If there were no valid objections to ***the marriage it could take place, usually two or three weeks after the ***intention, depending on the year and location. This prevented people such ***as the underaged and indentured servants from marrying without ***permisiion. He's fast, he's thorough, and he seems to be always right. I'm hereby nominating Dale as Most Valuable Lister of this year. Here, by way of illustration from PCR, Laws 1623-1682 (PCR 11:13), is one relevant law from the early years of Plymouth Colony (bearing in mind that as Dale said practices varied from time to time and place to place): "That none be allowed to marry that are under the covert of parents but by their consent and approbation, but in case consent cannot be had then it shall be with the consent of the Governor, or some assistant [there were seven assistants] to whom the persons are knowne whose care it shall be to see the marriage be fitt before it be allowed by him. And after approbation be three several times published before the solemnising of it. or els in places where there is no such meetings that contracts or agreements of marriage may be so published, that then it shalbe lawful to publish them by a writing thereof made and set upon the usual publike place for the space of fifteen days, provided that the writing be under some magistrates hand or by his order."

The citation to the article mentioned by Dale (i.e. "New England Vital Records in the Seventeenth Century" by the late Ruth Wilder Sherman) is: National Genealogical Society Quarterly (i.e. "NGSQ"), Volume 73, No. 4 (December 1985), pp. 277-289. Highly recommended reading! Richard -----Original Message----- From: Dale H Cook <radiotest@juno.com> To: MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com <MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Sunday, June 23, 2002 8:44 PM Subject: Re: [MFLR] What does intention mean? On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:00:01 -0400 "Harlow Chandler" <chandler@firstva.com> writes: > He's fast, he's thorough, and he seems to be always right. The operative word here is "seems." When I make a goof it is usually pretty big. The fast part is easy. I have a good memory, and, more inportant for genealogy, well-organized references. To refresh my memory about intentions I pulled out "New England Vital Records in the Seventeenth Century" by Ruth Wilder Sherman. It was published in the National Genealogical Society Quarterly, but for once I don't know which volume. I've had it in my files for about 10 years. The most recent source citation is from 1985, so that narrows the possible dates of publication. I'll look it up when I get to the library. It gives a superb overview of the origins of, sources for, and problems with vital records. I'll post the exact reference when I get it - I think many of you will find it as illuminating as I have. Dale H. Cook, Chief Engineer, WWWR Roanoke VA, WCQV Moneta VA, WKBA WZZI Vinton VA, WKPA WLNI WLVA WZZU Lynchburg VA ==== MAYFLOWER Mailing List ==== Check out the web page of the General Society of Mayflower Descendants at http://www.mayflower.org/