In a message dated 8/19/2002 10:32:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, chandler@firstva.com writes: << I think we'd better stop before the list loses patience. >> AMEN! Bob

I would like to purchase the third one listed, William Brewster Of The Mayflower And The Fifth Generation Descendants Of His Daughter Patience2, [2001]. Do they have a website where it can be purchased on line? Or if not on line, what is the cost so I may order it thru the mail. Thanks for your help! I was not aware of this booklet. Karla ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan E. Roser" <roser@iprimus.ca> To: <MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 5:11 AM Subject: Fw: [MFLR] Brewster MFIP clarification > Thought I'd jump in here and try to clarify a bit regarding the Brewster > MFIPs > > Sue & Christie were on the right track with their posts. There are three > different MFIPs for Brewster which follow different lines which I'll outline > below. Also I should point out that when citing these books, one cites the > family #, not the page #. These are "in progress" books which means they > are often being updated and revised, hence the page numbering changes with > each new revision, however unless new descendants are found, or old ones > deleted, the family # often remains the same. Since these booklets are not > "numbered by volume" and not referred to by a volume #, I agree that it > would be a good idea to cite them by year of printing, ie. MFIP (Brewster, > 2000) #240 or perhaps by family member which might be more explicit, i.e. > MFIP (Jonathan Brewster) #240. > > 1. William Brewster Of The Mayflower And His Descendants For Four > Generations [2000], 3rd Ed. > > 2. William Brewster Of The Mayflower And The Fifth Generation Descendants Of > His Son Jonathan2, [1999]. > > 3. William Brewster Of The Mayflower And The Fifth Generation Descendants Of > His Daughter Patience2, [2001]. > > Susan E. Roser, > Governor & Historian > Canadian Society > www.rootsweb.com/~canms/canada.html

***-----Original Message----- ***From: CICS [mailto:towle@sbcics.com] ***Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 10:09 AM ***To: MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com ***Subject: [MFLR] Semantics *** *** ***At 04:11 AM 8/19/02 -0600, you wrote: ***>John, ***> ***>The silver books alone are sufficient proof to cite that the ***line is valid. *** ***Don't you mean "evidence" as opposed to proof? Wouldn't DNA be ***the closest thing to "proof" available and usable? *** ***Tom Mmmm. "Proof" in stricter usage is the process of establishing or the establishment of fact from argument or evidence. (It is possible to quibble with that definition I know). The results of a DNA test are evidence, and can be part of a proof. You may consider DNA tests to be more convincing evidence than a written record--I think I would, but I don't know much about them. The Silver Books, I would think, marshal evidence to present proof, and in turn become evidence when an individual uses them to present his own proof of lineage. I think we'd better stop before the list loses patience.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/FO.2ADI/177 Message Board Post: Dear All: There have been questions on this message board about the last needed connection, brickwalls, and the status of various descendant lines. The best way to solve these mysteries is to get help from the Mayflower Society and the Silver Books. There has been a interesting thread running in the Mayflower mailing list. This thread pertains to the question of using the Mayflower Silver books as the documentation source for those last 5 to 8 generations. ( Normally these are the really tough ones). For most cases, the Silver books get you down to the mid 1700's or even 1800. This time zone is important because it gets a researcher to the point where a census is available, vital records became more widely available etc. You will see replies below from Susan Roser ( noted author) and Mrs Bette Bradway ( the assistant historian for the society). The short answer is that normally the Silver Books are acceptable. These Silver books are tremendous bargains. They provide information that took thousands of hours of research, and also looked at records and information that is only available on a very limited basis. Everyone should look first at these books. They are available by Interlibrary loan, most libraries, etc. The other major resource ( and great bargain) is the information available when you send in the preliminary request form. The cost is $5.00! The response to you is then the status of needed information and other people that may have provided information going to the same ancestor. You can then "piggyback" on that proven line of ancestors. What a deal! You can download those forms from the Society home page. http://www.mayflower.org/apform.htm There are some really good FAQ's at: http://www.macatawa.org/~crich/mayfaq.htm http://members.aol.com/calebj/mayflower.html http://www.rootsweb.com/~canms/applicat.html Susan Roser writes the following on her website: "A synopsis form can be printed from the General Society’s site (where you will also find their address) and should be filled out (Mayflower passenger #1) and sent along with $5 (U.S.). If a previously approved, well documented paper is found, you will be sent a copy, and will be able to use the data & sources from that paper, up to the point where your lines branch off, which means your documentation efforts will begin at this point. If the search proves successful, this could be extremely beneficial and cut down on the number of generations you will have to document." I hope this helps you to get going on that last push to make the application steps. The first application is the most important since you then find out where you need more documents and what the available documents are to assist you. Best Regards John A Hansen Board Admin Here is the summary of the thread: Dear Susan: Thanks so much for your reply. (Mrs.) Bette Innes Bradway Assistant Historian General, et. al. wrote: "the Silver Books have ALMOST ALWAYS been fully accepted by the Historian General, without any further documentation being submitted". This qualifier was due to the possibility that later correspondence had been received indicating some errors or conflicts etc. So it's now clear. I would like to post your answer on the message boards as well since there is some traffic over there and you and Mrs Bradway have cleared the question. Please confirm that posting would be ok. Thanks again. Best Regards John A Hansen Message Board Admin > -----Original Message----- > From: Susan E. Roser [mailto:roser@iprimus.ca] > Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 8:09 AM > To: MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [MFLR] GSMD Documentation > John asked: > > "Do you happen to know if there has been a change in > policy regarding the accepting of the documentation in > the Silver books as proof. In other words can the Silver > books be quoted as the documentation on > a certain line? At one time that was not the case and > independant certified copies had to be supplied with the > application" > > and > > "So my question remains: When a person submits > the application to the Historian , will the > Silver Books alone be sufficient proof that this line > of ancestors is properly documented? > John, > > The silver books alone are sufficient proof to cite that the > line is valid. I don't know about a change in policy as you > state above, this has been the case as long as I've been > a state Historian (10 years). And please note > while it may have been the case many years ago, copies of > your documentation do NOT need to be certified these days. > > Susan E. Roser,Historian, Governor > Canadian Society > www.rootsweb.com/~canms/canada.html >

I have a copy of the Freetown VR book which I would be happy to copy any pages for you. I bought my book on ebay, but have not seen one since. Dianna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ginny Core" <vcore@tctwest.net> To: <MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 8:58 PM Subject: [MFLR] Searching for a book > I am searching for Vital Records of the town of Freetown MA 1686-1890 > by Helen Gurney Thomas > > Does anyone have information of where I can purchase a copy? > > Thanks, > Ginny Core > > > ==== MAYFLOWER Mailing List ==== > Check out the web page of the General Society of Mayflower Descendants at http://www.mayflower.org/ > >

Thought I'd jump in here and try to clarify a bit regarding the Brewster MFIPs Sue & Christie were on the right track with their posts. There are three different MFIPs for Brewster which follow different lines which I'll outline below. Also I should point out that when citing these books, one cites the family #, not the page #. These are "in progress" books which means they are often being updated and revised, hence the page numbering changes with each new revision, however unless new descendants are found, or old ones deleted, the family # often remains the same. Since these booklets are not "numbered by volume" and not referred to by a volume #, I agree that it would be a good idea to cite them by year of printing, ie. MFIP (Brewster, 2000) #240 or perhaps by family member which might be more explicit, i.e. MFIP (Jonathan Brewster) #240. 1. William Brewster Of The Mayflower And His Descendants For Four Generations [2000], 3rd Ed. 2. William Brewster Of The Mayflower And The Fifth Generation Descendants Of His Son Jonathan2, [1999]. 3. William Brewster Of The Mayflower And The Fifth Generation Descendants Of His Daughter Patience2, [2001]. Susan E. Roser, Governor & Historian Canadian Society www.rootsweb.com/~canms/canada.html

Dear Tom: Well... Evidence is an interesting variation on Proof. The standard for most genealogical determinations is a term called : "preponderance of evidence". However, the FAQ for Mayflower used this question: "Q: In documenting my line for membership, what needs to be proven and what type of proof does one need? ". I guess a DNA study would be interesting as well. I'm currently involved in a DNA study for the Scottish Clans. Some interesting results coming in from that. BTW: Susan furnished a lot of clarification on the question of how the Silver books can be used. I also wanted to thank (Mrs.) Bette Innes Bradway Assistant Historian General for her very specific and enlightening clarification as well. She is in the process of moving and still took some time to answer the questions. Best Regards John A Hansen > -----Original Message----- > From: CICS [mailto:towle@sbcics.com] > Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 7:09 AM > To: MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [MFLR] Semantics > > > At 04:11 AM 8/19/02 -0600, you wrote: > >John, > > > >The silver books alone are sufficient proof to cite that the > line is valid. > > Don't you mean "evidence" as opposed to proof? Wouldn't DNA be > the closest thing to "proof" available and usable? > > Tom > > P.S. Thanks Susan for all your help and guidance. > > >I don't know about a change in policy as you state above, this > has been the > >case as long as I've been a state Historian (10 years). And please note > >while it may have been the case many years ago, copies of your > documentation > >do NOT need to be certified these days. > > > >Susan E. Roser,Historian, Governor > >Canadian Society > >www.rootsweb.com/~canms/canada.html > > > Tom Towle - Computer and Internet Consulting Services > towle@sbcics.com - http://www.sbcics.com > (805) 969-4517 - P.O. Box 5448, Montecito, CA 93150 > Corporate Member - HTML Writers Guild > > > ==== MAYFLOWER Mailing List ==== > Check out the Mayflower FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions)page at > http://www.macatawa.org/~crich/mayfaq.htm . > > >

At 04:11 AM 8/19/02 -0600, you wrote: >John, > >The silver books alone are sufficient proof to cite that the line is valid. Don't you mean "evidence" as opposed to proof? Wouldn't DNA be the closest thing to "proof" available and usable? Tom P.S. Thanks Susan for all your help and guidance. >I don't know about a change in policy as you state above, this has been the >case as long as I've been a state Historian (10 years). And please note >while it may have been the case many years ago, copies of your documentation >do NOT need to be certified these days. > >Susan E. Roser,Historian, Governor >Canadian Society >www.rootsweb.com/~canms/canada.html Tom Towle - Computer and Internet Consulting Services towle@sbcics.com - http://www.sbcics.com (805) 969-4517 - P.O. Box 5448, Montecito, CA 93150 Corporate Member - HTML Writers Guild

***-----Original Message----- ***From: Ginny Core [mailto:vcore@tctwest.net] ***Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 11:58 PM ***To: MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com ***Subject: [MFLR] Searching for a book *** *** ***I am searching for Vital Records of the town of Freetown MA 1686-1890 ***by Helen Gurney Thomas *** ***Does anyone have information of where I can purchase a copy? *** ***Thanks, ***Ginny Core http://www.heritagebooks.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=HBI&Pro duct_Code=T190

While everyone has there Brewster books out could anyone clarify something for me? MFIP Jonathan2 published 1999 page 76: Re: Benjamin Prince... Abiel Nelson, who was born in Plymouth, Mass., circa 1697,4, reputedly the daughter of Samuel and Patience (Morton) Nelson, but more likely the daughter of John Morton of Plymouth.5 Is it possible John Morton is supposed to be John Nelson? I have never been able to find a document naming Abiel's parents. Anyone know for certain who they are? Thanks, Gayle

In a message dated 08/18/2002 10:23:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ChristieTrapp@aol.com writes: > Since the original message asked for page 240 of volume two, I believe she > meant volume one as it has 269 pages to be exact. > Or maybe referring to family #, i.e., in the MFIP for William Brewster of the Mayflower and the Fifth Generation Descendants of his son Jonathan2, compiled by Barbara Lambert Merrick, Typed and Indexed by E. Virginia Hunt, published 1999, #240 (not page) is: Mary Harris (Mary Wetherell4, Grace3 Brewster, Jonathan2, William1) was born in New London, Conn., 4 November 1690, the daughter of Thomas and Mary (Wetherell) Harris. Mary died in New London, Thursday, 4 March 1724/5, and buried 6 March 1724/5. It goes on to tell when she was married, to who, and the children and gives sources. Just a thought. Sue ================================================= Only a Genealogist regards a step backwards as progress

Dear Father John: For your's and everyone's information. There are 3 volumes to the MFIP for William Brewster. Volume One was published in 199 and covers his son Jonathan. Volume Two was published in 2000 and covers William Brewster himself. Volume Three was published in 2001 and covers the daughter Patience. Since the original message asked for page 240 of volume two, I believe she meant volume one as it has 269 pages to be exact. What the originator of the query probably should have done was specify the year of publication to avoid any confusion. When I mention volume one, two or three, I am referring to the publication dates. Of course, what may be confusing the entire issue is that for the one copy that I have that covers William Brewster may have originally been volume one, but I have a revised 3rd edition which was published in the year 2000, so that may make a differences as to the "numbering" discussed above. Apology to all those who have the earlier editions of the volume which was the one for William Brewster, the original Pilgrim. That one may have been volume one at one point in time before any revisions. Christie Trapp

I am searching for Vital Records of the town of Freetown MA 1686-1890 by Helen Gurney Thomas Does anyone have information of where I can purchase a copy? Thanks, Ginny Core

I am in need of a photocopy of the MFIP Brewster 2:240 for research purposes. Please let me know if you can help. Thanks. Emily

I have MFIP Brewster Volume 3 and there are only 150 pages... I am confused. Does your message have a "typo" or are there more than 240 pages in volume 2 (or am I reading the reference wrong)? Father John >From: Dickinsonadams@aol.com >To: MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [MFLR] I MFIP Brewster 2:240 >Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 20:05:04 EDT > >I am in need of a photocopy of the MFIP Brewster 2:240 for research >purposes. > Please let me know if you can help. Thanks. > >Emily > > >==== MAYFLOWER Mailing List ==== >Check out the web page of the General Society of Mayflower Descendants at >http://www.mayflower.org/ _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

In a message dated 8/18/02 12:39:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ajh2@adelphia.net writes: <OOPS! You forgot to tell us the Fuller feller's first name, and approximate <ages would help also. Glad you asked. I was concentrating more on the general question of known Mayflower FULLERs in Nova Scotia or elsewhere in Canada. But I did note an error in my question. The earliest person traced is John A. FULLER and it was HIS wife Jane --- who is said to have been born in "Peterboro, Vermont-?". I would have to guess that John A. FULLER was born about 1825-30. His son, John E. FULLER, was born about October 1860 (based on 1900 Census). He was the naturalized US citizen, with conflicting info found in his 1884 Massachusetts marriage certif. which says he was born in Massachusetts. He was married to Marie Clara FLEURIE, born about 1865 in Massachusetts. Her surname sounds to me like French origin, yet the 1900 Census says BOTH her parents were born in Scotland! There is a Scottish surname spelled various ways: FLEURY, FLORY, etc. so it's possible. Len

I have seen posts that branches of some Mayflower families settled in Canada. I am researching a FULLER family which may descend from a Canadian family of that name but thus far I have no indication of a Mayflower connection. Some indicators point to Nova Scotia as a place of residence. The person concerned was born about about 1860, with a conflict between census records and Mass. vital records. His wife and all children are listed in the 1900 US Census as having been born in Massachusetts. 1900 US Federal Census gives his place of birth, and also of both his parents, as "Canada - Eng" meaning, I assume, born in Canada, of English citizenship. He emigrated to the United States in 1880 and became a Naturalized citizen. An inconsistency is found in his Boston marriage record dated 15 January 1884. This gives his birthplace as "Boston, MA" and that of his spouse, Marie C. FLEURIE, as "Peterboro, VT", yet her birthplace in the 1920 Census is given as "Massachusetts". Moreover, there is no Peterboro, Vermont, that I am aware of. Perhaps New Hampshire is meant. Can anyone offfer any help?? Thanks, Len

Hello Listers, I am attempting to prove my line from John Alden and get stuck at Ruth Arnold Thomas, daughter of Nathaniel Robbins Thomas and Ruth Arnold (d. of Samuel Arnold and Mary Nash). She was supposedly born in Braintree about 1808, but there is no town record confirming the date or parentage. Her father was definitely living there in 1800, 1804, and 1810. He died in 1819 in Braintree, but the town has no record. His Probate papers do not indicate names of children. Ruth married Alvan Cutler in Braintree on 12 Jan 1827; they subsequently moved to East Machias, Maine, where they both died in the 1870s. Looking for any information that will lead me to proof of Ruth's birth and parentage. Thanks to all. Connie

In a message dated 8/18/2002 5:13:39 AM Central Daylight Time, MAYFLOWER-D-request@rootsweb.com writes: > 4. Kathy: John D. Austin cites the following source regarding the Woodworth > family: "Woodworth family of America" by James R. Pierce, et ano. (1975). I > don't know how this differs from the one you asked about that was authored > by Jeanette Behan. However, you will find a discussion of Ebenezer > Woodworth and his marriage to Rebecca Small on pp 295-296 in the "Hopkins > silver book" (Generation 5). At this time, the family was of Lebanon, New > London, CT, although some did remove to Nova Scotia. I'd appreciate any information on the Woodworth line in Nova Scotia. I have a Woodworth (first name unknown) who married Catherine Archibald of Nova Scotia. Catherine was b. 1836. Please contact me off list if this request for information is off topic. Thank you, Carol Reed Kennedy

My apologies if this message is hitting the list more than once. It keeps being sent back to me as "undeliverable" so I keep trying.... John asked: "Do you happen to know if there has been a change in policy regarding the accepting of the documentation in the Silver books as proof. In other words can the Silver books be quoted as the documentation on a certain line? At one time that was not the case and independant certified copies had to be supplied with the application" and "So my question remains: When a person submits the application to the Historian , will the Silver Books alone be sufficient proof that this line of ancestors is properly documented? The way I read your answer and the FAQ infers, the answer to my question is still NO." ______________ John, The silver books alone are sufficient proof to cite that the line is valid. I don't know about a change in policy as you state above, this has been the case as long as I've been a state Historian (10 years). And please note while it may have been the case many years ago, copies of your documentation do NOT need to be certified these days. Susan E. Roser,Historian, Governor Canadian Society www.rootsweb.com/~canms/canada.html