Mim.... Ha..ha.... I do like ..1..3...6...7...8...and 10 now will forward to my friends [girls only]...... Cyndy ----- Original Message ----- From: Miriam Taylor-Cotton For those in the Ya-Ya sisterhood: 1) If you love something, set it free. If it comes back, it will always be yours. If it doesn't come back, it was never yours to begin with. But, if it just sits in your living room, messes up your stuff, eats your food, uses your telephone, takes your money, and doesn't appear to realize that you had set it free....... You either married it or gave birth to it. 2) Reason to smile: Every 7 minutes of every day, someone in an aerobics class pulls a hamstring. 3) My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely. 4) The best way to forget all your troubles is to wear tight shoes. 5) The nice part about living in a small town: When you don't know what you're doing, someone else always does. 6) Just when I was getting used to yesterday, along came today. 7) Sometimes I think I understand everything, then I regain consciousness. 8) Amazing! You hang something in your closet for a while and it shrinks two sizes! 9) They keep telling us to get in touch with our bodies. Mine isn't all that communicative but I heard from it the other day after I said, "Body, how'd you like to go to the six o'clock class in vigorous toning?" Clear as a bell my body said, "Listen fatty....do it and die!" 10) I read this article that said the typical symptoms of stress are eating too much, impulse buying, and driving too fast. Are they kidding? That's my idea of a perfect day. > > Send this to seven bright women you know and make their > > day!!! Or at least make them laugh a little... > >

Thank you, I found a Silver Book #2 for a great price but couldn't make out the names.. Just checking to see who they were. Dianna Saario Digging up Roots

>> Could someone tell me who is respresented by the Silver Book #2.<< > >What are the three names??<< From Dale: >>They are Chilton, More and Rogers. Volume 2 has been supplanted by new volumes benefitting from further research - Chilton and More are in Volume 15 and Rogers in Volume 19.<< Thank you SO much Dale! Finally someone has told me where to look for the updated info heretofor in Volume 2 (which I own, but I guess it is time to buy some new ones, right??) Linda :-)

On Sun, 25 Aug 2002 10:01:59 -0700 "Dianna Saario" <dsaario@attbi.com> writes: > Could someone tell me who is respresented by the Silver Book #2. > What are the three names?? Dianna - They are Chilton, More and Rogers. Volume 2 has been supplanted by new volumes benefitting from further research - Chilton and More are in Volume 15 and Rogers in Volume 19. Dale H. Cook, Chief Engineer, WWWR Roanoke VA, WCQV Moneta VA, WKBA WZZI Vinton VA, WKPA WLNI WLVA WZZU Lynchburg VA

Could someone tell me who is respresented by the Silver Book #2. What are the three names?? Dianna Saario Digging up Roots

----- Original Message ----- From: <RicTurner@cs.com> To: <MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [MFLR] Descendants of John Howland - lines later proved invalid? > In a message dated 8/23/02 4:24:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonesgenealogy@yahoo.com writes: > > f someone joined the Society years ago and it was learned later that the > > line they joined on turned out to be invalid, does that person retain > > membership in the Society anyway? ____________ > Yes, based, at least on my personal experience. Allow me to plead my case. > > In the early 1980s, I applied as a descendant of Francis Cooke, via the > children of his daughter Jane, who married Experience Mitchell. > > At that time, it was presumed that all the children of Experience Mitchell > were descendants of his first wife, Jane Cooke, and not by his second wife, > Mary ------. > > Afterwards, two independently written articles were published by both NEHGR > and by TAG, which refuted this, saying that there was considerable > circumstantial evidence to suggest that some of Experience Mitchell's > children were by his second wife, who was not, because her surname was > unnown, a Mayflower descendant. > > I personally made the decision to resign, because I did not wish to file an > incorrect lineage. I later received a letter from the historian general of > the society stating that this was not necessary, as I applied in good faith, > according to the knowlege available at the time. > > I was fortunate to be able to prove an alternate line to Francis Cooke, which > was acceptable. But the point is this...if you prove a lineage, which > eventually is "unproven" you will still retain membership. However, on your > lineage paper, which is on file with the society, it will say, across the top > of said paper..."DISPROVED" > > I would invite both Ms. Roser and Ms. Bradway to comment on this matter, to > give their perspectives. > > Regards, > > Rick Turner ______________ Rick covered it very nicely above - there's not much more I can add. Susan www.rootsweb.com/~canms/canada.html www.rootsweb.com/~canms/canada.html

I too am looking for Chipman references. Please let me know if you might have a copy of The Chipman Family by Bert Lee Chipman. Thank you Sincerely, Linda Chesson

Searching for parents of Naomi Warren; b.ca1797, possibly ?Maine; m. 1815, Augusta ME to Ebenezer Trask; d.?. In the "Hist. of Scituate" by Deane, I found a John Warren (from Plymouth) mar. Naomi Bates in 1713. And among others had a son John b. 1719. No further information. "The Ancestry of Eva Belle Kempton" 1878-1908, Part I has information on a Warren family, but nothing to connect with my Naomi. If information available to share would greatly appreciate. Thank you. Joan Reed Miller

The usual policy is that if one has joined the Society "in good faith" and based on the then available information (as Ric did, and many others have done) and the line is later disproven, no member is ever asked to resign or told that they can no longer be a member. Some people WILL resign their membership. Others, like you, will find another line from which they are eligible. In that case, everyone goes "merrily on their way" and the member just stands up at various functions to honor a different Mayflower Passenger from whom they really do descend. Bette Bradway

Does anyone have a copy of The Chipman Family by Bert Lee Chipman? I'm trying to track down a few pages from it. Thank you, Gayl

In a message dated 8/23/02 4:24:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonesgenealogy@yahoo.com writes: > f someone joined the Society years ago and it was learned later that the > line they joined on turned out to be invalid, does that person retain > membership in the Society anyway? Yes, based, at least on my personal experience. Allow me to plead my case. In the early 1980s, I applied as a descendant of Francis Cooke, via the children of his daughter Jane, who married Experience Mitchell. At that time, it was presumed that all the children of Experience Mitchell were descendants of his first wife, Jane Cooke, and not by his second wife, Mary ------. Afterwards, two independently written articles were published by both NEHGR and by TAG, which refuted this, saying that there was considerable circumstantial evidence to suggest that some of Experience Mitchell's children were by his second wife, who was not, because her surname was unnown, a Mayflower descendant. I personally made the decision to resign, because I did not wish to file an incorrect lineage. I later received a letter from the historian general of the society stating that this was not necessary, as I applied in good faith, according to the knowlege available at the time. I was fortunate to be able to prove an alternate line to Francis Cooke, which was acceptable. But the point is this...if you prove a lineage, which eventually is "unproven" you will still retain membership. However, on your lineage paper, which is on file with the society, it will say, across the top of said paper..."DISPROVED" I would invite both Ms. Roser and Ms. Bradway to comment on this matter, to give their perspectives. Regards, Rick Turner "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."---The Declaration of Independence "I love the word 'friends'. It means so much, for we are, and should be, friends for the glory of God and the salvation of the world."---Alice C. Winslow (1856-1927), 1913

This may seem like a silly question (or it may actually have been asked before), but your post made me think of it. If someone joined the Society years ago and it was learned later that the line they joined on turned out to be invalid, does that person retain membership in the Society anyway? Curious as to how that works. Thanks, Wendy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bette Bradway" <bibcg@nycap.rr.com> To: <MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [MFLR] Descendants of John Howland > A slight clarification on the "MI".... [rest of your post snipped for brevity] > Bette Innes Bradway, > Assist. Historian General

Janet asked: > Would the book "The Kelloggs in the Old World and the New" by Timothy Hopkins > be acceptable as a source for application to the Society of Mayflower > Descendants. What other books would be acceptable sources? Have traced my > lineage back to Edward Doty, thru Edward 2, Mary 3, Hannah 4. > ______________________________ Janet, Family genealogies as well as town histories can be used as sources to document your line - but there are conditions and certain limits. First, every attempt must be made to source your data from primary sources - and there are many to choose from so don't give up too easily. When birth, death and marriage records cannot be found there could be church or cemetery records, deeds or probates, census or bible records, etc. And, in the case of the last 3 (latest) generations, in fact any date in the 1900's, primary documentation is expected and required - citing a family genealogy will not be sufficient. When you have exhausted all efforts to obtain that elusive record for your *earlier* generations, then you may certainly turn to family or town histories. These publications can be cited whether or not they contain sources to back up their data. Note also that while the silver MF books may be cited on their own, the pink MFIP booklets (being "in progress" works) should be cited with supporting sources. The "limits" to citing these secondary books is that you cannot source an entire lineage, or several generations, based on one book, nor can you use one book as a source for the parentage of multiple line carriers. We can usually source a lineage for the first 5-6 generations and the last three - which leaves perhaps 3 generations in between that sometimes prove challenging. My rule of thumb is that I try to use these books sparingly in these 3 middle generations and I try to support the use of one book with another - two secondary sources are better than one. Susan E. Roser Governor & Historian Canadian Society www.rootsweb.com/~canms/canada.html

Cathy - the first four generations of your Brewster line (and birth of the 5th generation) should be in the William Brewster "MFIP." At this point, we do not yet have a continuation of the 5th/6th generation of Love [2] Brewster's descendants, although you may be able to find a little more in the 1908 "Brewster Genealogy" by Emma Brewster Jones. You will have to go to a genealogical library to locate that, unless someone on the list can provide you with the exact page references. For those of you who are looking for information on sources that can be used, go to www.Mayflower.org, click on Contacts, then Canada, then "Canada Mayflower" (not Susan Roser's e-mail address) then "Application Procedures." She has posted information which provides you with most of the answers to questions that you are asking. The first thing listed under "Secondary Sources" is: Local Histories and Family Genealogies (or vice versa). We normally accept BOTH as references, as long as they were formally published, although primary sources are always better. We do NOT accept typewritten or computer generated UN-published material, mss. material, most Family Society Newsletters or compilations that were put together for family members with little or no references. Most of the genealogies that were published in the late 1880's to early 1900s are accepted (even though they may not show references), especially for the middle generations of a lineage (roughly 6th to 9th), when other records may be very difficult to locate. When using these secondary sources, it is always better to locate a second independent source which shows the same information, (e. g., a local history and a genealogy, 2 different family genealogies which contain the same information, or other records to augment any published work). This is especially true for the documentation of the Mayflower line carrier. Information on the "Silver Books" and "MFIPs" published by the General Society of Mayflower Descendants can also be found on the Society's web page, including prices and how to order. Bette Innes Bradway, Assistant Historian General

From: Cathy PORTER-Maynard Greetings, All: I am appreciative of Janet's initial question regarding acceptable documentation; and, the informative response by Mr. Dale H. Cook. I, too, had wondered whether a particular Timothy Hopkins book (in my own case, "JOHN HOPKINS OF CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS, 1634, AND SOME OF HIS DESCENDANTS," published 1932), would be an acceptable source for application to the Mayflower Society. Mr. Cook's response clarified that "as a general rule, family histories are not acceptable documentation without corroboration." . . . NEW QUESTION: Would anyone know of acceptable sources/documentation for the William Brewster line, through his son, Love Brewster? My (unproven) Brewster line is attached below. I would be extremely appreciative of suggestions or guidance from anyone on the list regarding this line. I sincerely thank you for your help and guidance... Peace & blessings, Cathy PORTER-Maynard <>< (In Minnesota) . . . __________________________ __________________________ 1-WILLIAM BREWSTER, b.1566 / 67 Scrooby, Nottingham England, married Mary _____. 2-Love Brewster, b. 1601 Scrooby, Nottingham England, m. Sarah Collier 3-Wrestling Brewster, b. 1644, Plymouth Massachusetts, married Mary _____. 4-Jonathan Brewster, b. 1680, Plymouth Massachusetts, m. Mary Partridge 5-Jerusha Brewster, b. 1720, Windham, Connecticut, m. Zebulon Rudd 6-Benjamin Hopkins, b. 1747, Hartford, CT, m. Zaresh Rudd , b. 1746, N.Y. 7-Rudd Hopkins, b. August 5, 1776, Bennington, VT, m. Anna Scott, b. July 27, 1776, Bennington, Vermont 8-Benjamin Franklin Hopkins, b. 1799, Vermont, m. Clarisa Coburn , b. 1816, MA 9-Scott Lee Hopkins, b. 1839, Kent, Portage, Ohio, married Helen Mar Cumming, born 1841, Tennessee 10-Catherine Diana Hopkins, b. Feb. 26, 1865, Petersburg, Menard, Illinois, m. Robert Childers, b. Feb. 18, 1856, Missouri 11-Ella Childers, b. Missouri, m. Edward Marshall Bisbee Stevens [Great grandparents of Cathy Porter-Maynard] __________________________ __________________________

In a message dated 8/22/02 7:55:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dsaario@attbi.com writes: > Has anyone ever seen a likeness of George Soule, Mayflower Passenger? > The only known likeness that I am aware of is a painting of Edward Winslow, which is currently on display in the Pilgrim Museum in Plymouth MA. Regards, Rick Turner "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."---The Declaration of Independence "I love the word 'friends'. It means so much, for we are, and should be, friends for the glory of God and the salvation of the world."---Alice C. Winslow (1856-1927), 1913

On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 09:53:45 EDT Dotuw1@aol.com writes: > Would the book "The Kelloggs in the Old World and the New" by Timothy > Hopkins > be acceptable as a source for application to the Society of > Mayflower Descendants. Janet - I'm not a state society historian and so cannot make a definitive statement, but in my experience, as a general rule, family histories are not acceptable documentation without corroboration. The silver and pink books are exceptions because they are published by the General Society and are fully documented from primary sources. The three Kellogg volumes were published in 1903 - is the information in them documented from primary sources? If so, you will need to find those sources, verify the information, and cite the primary sources in your application. If not, then the Kellogg volumes may still be a good starting point. You would need to find the primary sources that Hopkins used and cite those sources. > What other books would be acceptable sources? Any works that publish primary sources, such as the volumes of vital records for many Massachusetts towns, and books such as "Plymouth Church Records, 1620-1858" and "Records of the Colony of New Plymouth in New England" which contain transcriptions of other contemporary records. Dale H. Cook, Chief Engineer, WWWR Roanoke VA, WCQV Moneta VA, WKBA WZZI Vinton VA, WKPA WLNI WLVA WZZU Lynchburg VA

A slight clarification on the "MI".... The information about the "Mayflower Index" on FAQs (and I have e-mail Craig directly about this) is not exactly correct. In addition to the "Mayflower Ancestral Index" Vol. 1, published in 1981 (which is discussed in the FAQ), there is another completely different set of 2 books called the "Mayflower Index." The original "MI" was published in 1932, then enlarged and re-published (as 3 volumes in 2 books) in 1960. This set contains all of the names found on lineage papers at the Historian General's office in Plymouth for ALL Mayflower Passengers, up to the time of publication, not just the 8 Passengers covered in the 1981 "MAI." Like the "MAI," the "Mayflower Index" ("MI") cannot be used as a reference (although it WAS accepted until about 20 years ago). Older papers filed in the Historian General's office may show ONLY the "MI" as references. At the time, and when it could be used, applicants we were TOLD to use only that index number as a reference. (My own lineage application, filed in 1975, which I later completely documented according to current standards, shows "MI" numbers for the first 6 generations.) The "MI" is a clue (and only a clue) to lineages that had been submitted and approved by the Historian General up to the time of publication (some 40+ years ago!) With the on-going research of the "Five Generations Project," some of these previously submitted lines have been found to be incorrect and invalid. Many of the lines shown were never adequately proven, certainly not by current genealogical standards. Copies of the 1932 or 1960 "MI" can usually be found in genealogical libraries. There are most definitely NO plans for the Society to up-date and republish any "MI," as there are no plans to ever published the "MAI" beyond the one volume. (In other words, don't bother to look for any Volume 2 of the "MAI.") To the best of my knowledge, you will not find the "MI" or "MAI" on any internet source, so you MUST go to a library to locate them. Bette Innes Bradway, Assist. Historian General

Would the book "The Kelloggs in the Old World and the New" by Timothy Hopkins be acceptable as a source for application to the Society of Mayflower Descendants. What other books would be acceptable sources? Have traced my lineage back to Edward Doty, thru Edward 2, Mary 3, Hannah 4. Thank you, Janet

***-----Original Message----- ***From: MLGaertner@aol.com [mailto:MLGaertner@aol.com] ***Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 10:54 PM ***To: MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com ***Subject: [MFLR] Descendants of John Howland *** *** ***I found the following reference in "Early History of the Thorn Family" ***stating that Penelope Coles was the great granddaughter of John ***Howland of ***the Mayflower: Mayflower Index V 1-2 pp 236, 378, 404, 842, V 3 p 171. ***First question: What is the Mayflower Index? Craig Rich, our esteemed list administrator, has provided a great FAQ page which answers many questions such as this. It's well worth reading even if one doesn't have a question in mind--there are answers there to questions one may not have known he wanted to ask. http://www.macatawa.org/~crich/mayfaq.htm On this question the page has: "What is the "Mayflower Index" and can it be used as a source on my lineage paper? A: The "Mayflower Ancestral Index" (MI), vol. 1, was published by the General Society in 1981, covering approved lineages of the families of Brewster, Chilton, Eaton, S. Fuller, More, Rogers, Soule & White as found in the files of the Society by 1981. The book itself describes it thus: "...a roster of the family elements of the members of the General Society of Mayflower Descendants.... At best an index is secondary source material but it is not genealogical evidence. It may not be offered as documentation for membership in the Society." This is a guide only, to tell you which lines in the above families were approved before 1981. The index contains the names in the lineage only, no sources, no places or dates (save for the occasional "1710-1784"). Since the inclusion of a line in this book means the line was approved before 1981, these approved lineage papers in the Society's files may not be well documented."