I actually carry several kernals if corn in my purse--from one of my first Mayflower meetings in southern California. It has been six years, now I live in Virginia--and I still have them. They were at each place at the table and a paper with the story of the "Five Kernals of Corn" or something like that. I probably still have it in my file somewhere. Gail Adams

***-----Original Message----- ***From: CandaceLR@aol.com [mailto:CandaceLR@aol.com] ***Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:09 PM ***To: MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com ***Subject: [MFLR] Re: Thanksgiving *** *** ***I am also a Mayflower descendant from the CHILTON line. I was ***wondering if ***anyone has ever heard of the tradition of placing a couple of ***kernels of corn ***on each plate to signify the harsh conditions and lack of food for the ***Pilgrims. I would love to start this tradition in our family ***but wanted to ***know more about it. Susan Roser has posted an article: http://www.rootsweb.com/~canms/corn.html A Google search will turn up countless pages with information and relevant material of varying quality and will show that different people have used the tradition in their own varying ways, as you might want to do yourself.

I am also a Mayflower descendant from the CHILTON line. I was wondering if anyone has ever heard of the tradition of placing a couple of kernels of corn on each plate to signify the harsh conditions and lack of food for the Pilgrims. I would love to start this tradition in our family but wanted to know more about it.

In a message dated 11/25/02 3:10:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, Tim writes: <. I listed some of my families decedents that came over on the Mayflower. I have sense found another. These are the <names: <1.Bradford <2. Eaton <3. Whetherel <and the two others are: <4. Brewster <5. Hopkins While researching Mayflower lines I came across a Lydia WITHEREL who m. 15 January 1806 Miles SAMSON. He d. 1820 in Pembroke, Mass. A quick check in Rootsweb.com could not extend her line using various spellings and Soundex. Possibly she is an unknown branch of the Norton, Mass, WETHERELL family. I would think her line would have been researched as her husband was a descendent of Myles STANDISH. None of the seven Mayflower lines I have found is included in Tim's list, but I'd be interested if anyone can connect the diverse branches. Len

Any chance anyone on this site can tell me where I might find PILGRIM ART???? You know, art depicting the people who came over on the Mayflower...and while I am at it --- need help with a Leah Warren who married ca 1798 Thomas Elliott Swinson I am wondering if she(Leah) is descended from Richard Warren...??? Fran in SC Fran dear. Why not try to be a little more gracious as your gmamma surely taught. For one, try a nice friendly greeting. You can catch more flies with honey than with vineagar dear. We in the South would like to let the rest of the world realize we know the meaning of please and thank you. Kindest regards, Ed Sherman Past Governor, Soc. of Mayflower Descendants in SC <A HREF="http://www.mayflower.org/">General Mayflower Society</A> <A HREF="http://www.mayflower.org/">SC Mayflower</A>

Any chance anyone on this site can tell me where I might find PILGRIM ART???? You know, art depicting the people who came over on the Mayflower...and while I am at it --- need help with a Leah Warren who married ca 1798 Thomas Elliott Swinson I am wondering if she(Leah) is descended from Richard Warren...??? Fran in SC

I think if we are all honest, most of us would have taken the corn. When your option is to starve and winter is about there, gee folks, I think I would eat the corn. They did not know yet if the Indians would be friendly and probably didn't even know where the Indians were, so how could they approach them to ask and say thanks? I think they took care of this at their Thanksgiving celebration. We need to stop looking at this 1620 situation with 2002 eyes! How can you be sure what you would do unless you were in this situation? Gail Adams Editor, The Howland Quarterly

Thank you to everyone who was so helpful in answering my question about the Pilgrims. My question was answered completely! Mildred Mallek

Many thanks for the leads on how to view the article -- I really appreciate it. Terri

F.Y.I.: URL: <A HREF="http://www.usaweekend.com/02_issues/021124/021124mayflower.html#facts">Click here: USA WEEKEND Magazine</A> or, copy & paste: http://www.usaweekend.com/02_issues/021124/021124mayflower.html#facts ========================================================= THANKSGIVING: "Beyond the Mayflower" Issue Date: November 24, 2002 USA WEEKEND set out to find descendants of those original freedom seekers. Now, look how remarkably diverse this uniquely American lineage has become. By Cokie Roberts and Steven V. Roberts -- snip snip --

Dear gentle folk: Question! Since none of us realize how difficult life was for our Pilgrim ancestors and the fear they must have felt for their very survival on an unknown shore, with winter approaching, suppose they obtained the seed corn any way they could in order to survive. Would that have been OK? OR should they have face the possibility of starvation if they were unable to receive the corn as a gift from the Native Americans? Ed Sherman Past Governor, Soc. of Mayflower Descendants in SC <A HREF="http://www.mayflower.org/">General Mayflower Society</A> <A HREF="http://www.mayflower.org/">SC Mayflower</A>

Hi All, For those who don't get this magazine, the article is on line at the following web address. <A HREF="http://www.usaweekend.com/02_issues/021124/021124mayflower.html">http://www.usaweekend.com/02_issues/021124/021124mayflower.html</A> Priscilla www.priscillapaul.com

***-----Original Message----- ***From: Mildred [mailto:mallek@pensys.com] ***Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 9:45 AM ***To: MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com ***Subject: [MFLR] RE: Pilgrims and their seed corn *** *** *** I have just seen a newsletter from a church which states that the ***Pilgrims "stole" the seed corn from the Native Americans and never ***thanked them for it. *** ***I know this is off-topic, but things like that bother me, and I don't ***know any sources with which to refute statements like these. Can ***someone recommend a history of the colony, or would Wm. ***Bradford's account be the best? *** ***Thanks. *** ***Mildred Mallek (Bradford descendant) Hi Mildred, I don't think this is off topic at all--am I wrong? It's interesting that this was the way a church newsletter presented the affair. I assume the incident they meant was the discovery of several buried baskets of corn on Nov. 15th by Miles Standish and a party of men looking for a place to settle. The Mayflower had reached the continent days earlier, supplies were very low and the prospect of finding food in the wilderness was not good. This was not a raid on an Indian village. The men found the buried corn and then a bit later went back and got more. Bradford speaks of the event this way, and I think we must believe that he is sincere, "And here is to be noted a special providence of God, and a great mercy to this poor people, that they have got seed to plant them corn the next year,or else they might have starved, for they had none nor any likelihood to get any till the season had been past, as the sequel did manifest. Neither is it likely they had had this, if the first voyage had not been made, for the ground was now all covered with snow and hard frozen; but the Lord is never wanting unto His in their greatest needs; let His holy name have all the praise." ( p. 66 of the Modern Library Morison ed., 1967) Bradford says they intended to pay for the corn when the opportunity came, and six moths later it did and Bradford says the Indians were paid "to their good content." We may have our own feelings about how the Pilgrims viewed themselves in their relationship to God, but I do think we have to believe that Bradford was sincere and not rationalizing. He saw this as God's way of saving the Pilgrims from starvation. It wasn't a matter of their going and taking it from the Indians, but a matter of it's having been put there for the Pilgims through the agency of the Indians, or so, I think, Bradford believed. I don't think we can really call this theft if we are speaking of the motivations and understanding of the Pilgrims. As to a history of the Colony, I would think most people would think Eugene Aubrey Stratton's _Plymouth Colony: Its History and People_(Salt Lake City UT, Ancestry Publishing, 1986) is a very good choice, especially for people on this list as it is concerned with genealogy and history equally. It is very readable, is sound scholarship, and lots of fun. It was on sale through Ancestry.com recently, might still be, but is inexpensive anyway. It has been available through NEHGS and I assume through the big online booksellers, and of course many libraries have it. Another book which is older and I think only available now through libraries, and which I think is excellent, is George D. Langdon's _Pilgrim Colony:A History of New Plymouth 1620-1691_(New Haven, Yale University Press, 1966) This is also very readable and I think it's too bad it is out of print ( and if anyone knows that I'm wrong and it is in print I'd love to know that). I would personally think it would be best to read someone like Stratton before reading Bradford to better understand him when we do read his history, but by all means we all ought to read Bradford.

I was also going to cite the same words of Bradford, but Harlow beat me to it. A similar description of events is in "Mourt's Relation" (authorship unproven). "Mourt" says that after they found the corn "We were in suspense what to do with it and the kettle, and at length, after much consultation, we concluded to take the kettle and as much of the corn as we could carry away with us; and when our shallop came, if we could find any of the people, and come to parley with them, we would give them the kettle again, and satisfy them for their corn." Several attempts were made to contact the Indians, but they fled when they were sighted. Later they even met with some opposition. Jim Bullock Littleton, CO -----Original Message----- From: Harlow Chandler [mailto:chandler@firstva.com] Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 2:37 PM To: MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [MFLR] RE: Pilgrims and their seed corn . . . Bradford says they intended to pay for the corn when the opportunity came, and six moths later it did and Bradford says the Indians were paid "to their good content." . . .

***-----Original Message----- ***From: T.J. [mailto:vze4qnqz@verizon.net] ***Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 9:12 AM ***To: MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com ***Subject: [MFLR] Family History *** *** ***Hi everyone, I posted to this site earlier. I listed some of my ***families decedents that came over on the Mayflower. I have sense ***found another. These are the names: ***1.Bradford ***2. Eaton ***3. Whetherel *** ***and the two others are: ***4. Brewster ***5. Hopkins *** ***Does anyone have any information on the Whetherel (sp) family line? Hi Tim, While there wasn't a Wetherell on the Mayflower, there was a marriage between William Brewster's grandaughter Grace (Jonathan 2, William1) and Daniel Wetherell. The Brewster MFIP says, "Daniel Wetherell was prominent in public affairs. He served as town clerk, moderator, justice, judge of the county court,and judge of probate at New London." (22) Perhaps this is your Wetherell line and its tie to the Mayflower.

Wynona Ryder (spelling?) said she was goingt o pay for her stuff too! Perhaps she is one of the 35 million Mayflower decendants mentioned in the USA Weekend magazine. What is that ... 14 - 15 % ??? Now I feel real special. --- Harlow Chandler <chandler@firstva.com> wrote: > > > ***-----Original Message----- > ***From: Mildred [mailto:mallek@pensys.com] > ***Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 9:45 AM > ***To: MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com > ***Subject: [MFLR] RE: Pilgrims and their seed corn > *** > *** > *** I have just seen a newsletter from a church which states that the > ***Pilgrims "stole" the seed corn from the Native Americans and never > ***thanked them for it. > *** > ***I know this is off-topic, but things like that bother me, and I > don't > ***know any sources with which to refute statements like these. Can > ***someone recommend a history of the colony, or would Wm. > ***Bradford's account be the best? > *** > ***Thanks. > *** > ***Mildred Mallek (Bradford descendant) > > > Hi Mildred, > > I don't think this is off topic at all--am I wrong? > > It's interesting that this was the way a church newsletter presented > the > affair. > > I assume the incident they meant was the discovery of several buried > baskets > of corn on Nov. 15th by Miles Standish and a party of men looking for > a > place to settle. The Mayflower had reached the continent days > earlier, > supplies were very low and the prospect of finding food in the > wilderness > was not good. This was not a raid on an Indian village. The men > found the > buried corn and then a bit later went back and got more. Bradford > speaks > of the event this way, and I think we must believe that he is > sincere, > > "And here is to be noted a special providence of God, and a great > mercy to > this poor people, that they have got seed to plant them corn the next > year,or else they might have starved, for they had none nor any > likelihood > to get any till the season had been past, as the sequel did manifest. > Neither is it likely they had had this, if the first voyage had not > been > made, for the ground was now all covered with snow and hard frozen; > but the > Lord is never wanting unto His in their greatest needs; let His holy > name > have all the praise." ( p. 66 of the Modern Library Morison ed., > 1967) > > Bradford says they intended to pay for the corn when the opportunity > came, > and six moths later it did and Bradford says the Indians were paid > "to their > good content." > > We may have our own feelings about how the Pilgrims viewed themselves > in > their relationship to God, but I do think we have to believe that > Bradford > was sincere and not rationalizing. He saw this as God's way of > saving the > Pilgrims from starvation. It wasn't a matter of their going and > taking it > from the Indians, but a matter of it's having been put there for the > Pilgims > through the agency of the Indians, or so, I think, Bradford believed. > I > don't think we can really call this theft if we are speaking of the > motivations and understanding of the Pilgrims. > > > As to a history of the Colony, I would think most people would think > Eugene > Aubrey Stratton's _Plymouth Colony: Its History and People_(Salt Lake > City > UT, Ancestry Publishing, 1986) is a very good choice, especially for > people > on this list as it is concerned with genealogy and history equally. > It is > very readable, is sound scholarship, and lots of fun. It was on sale > through Ancestry.com recently, might still be, but is inexpensive > anyway. It > has been available through NEHGS and I assume through the big online > booksellers, and of course many libraries have it. > > Another book which is older and I think only available now through > libraries, and which I think is excellent, is George D. Langdon's > _Pilgrim > Colony:A History of New Plymouth 1620-1691_(New Haven, Yale > University > Press, 1966) This is also very readable and I think it's too bad it > is out > of print ( and if anyone knows that I'm wrong and it is in print I'd > love > to know that). > > I would personally think it would be best to read someone like > Stratton > before reading Bradford to better understand him when we do read his > history, but by all means we all ought to read Bradford. > > > > > > > ==== MAYFLOWER Mailing List ==== > Check out the web page of the General Society of Mayflower > Descendants at http://www.mayflower.org/ > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus � Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com

My 16-year-old son, reading over my shoulder the discussion of the Pilgrims "stealing" the Indians' seed corn and not thanking them for it, had this to say in response: "Hey, we HAVE an entire holiday called "Thanksgiving" -- what's the beef??!" Enough said... Happy Thanksgiving everyone! Kathy (and Scotty) Fenton ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I am accustomed to hearing malicious falsehoods about myself...but I think I have a right to object to libelous statements about my dog." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt Check out my genealogy web pages! http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/f/e/n/K-Fenton/index.html ~AND~ http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=twigsandbranches Recycle yourself! Tell someone you want to be an organ and tissue donor!

In a message dated 11/24/2002 7:07:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, theheaps@nantucket.net writes: << >Is this in the USA Today paper? For those of us not in the Patriot >Ledger area - like me, in WA., any way we can see the article? >> US Weekend has their own website, with the article at http://www.usaweekend.com/usatoday.html Sheila in Washington State

At 06:41 AM 11/24/02 -0800, you wrote: >Is this in the USA Today paper? For those of us not in the Patriot >Ledger area - like me, in WA., any way we can see the article? >Thank you, >Terri > > >Their website is www.ledger.southofboston.com. I'm not sure if they have >the article on-line but it's worth checking. >Sheila >(in Ledgerland!) Sheila Heap 210 North Street Hingham, MA 02043 phone ~ 781.749.9697 fax ~ 781.749.9771

In the last post of family names that may be connected I mentioned Perkins, the other name I failed to mention is PITKIN. Again, any information about links to the Mayflower through those names from my family heritage would be greatly appreciated. I also have lots of research that I am willing to give to assist anyone else. Tim