Muriel's comment about the Pilgrims and Indians living in harmony for so long reminds me of something about which I've always wondered. Does anyone know if this harmony and friendliness ever extended to the Pilgrims and Indians intermarrying? I would think they might have, especially considering the fact that the Pilgrims seemed to be somewhat short of women in their early years. Just wondering... Kathy Fenton In a message dated 11/30/02 9:29:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, flash1620@comcast.net writes: > Good morning, > > I thought others on this list would be interested in the article which > appeared in the Plymouth, MA "Old colony" newspaper this morning. > > Many of us on this list search for the truth and facts in our history. We > provide documentation to suppport our findings. How can we let articles > like this go unchallenged? It is a well known fact that the Pilgrims > and Indians lived in harmony for over 50 years, that the Massachusetts > Society of Mayflower Descendants gives a scholarship each year to a > descendant of the Wampanoag tribe in gratitude for their ancestors help and > friendliness. As descendants we know what we owe the Wampanoag tribe for > without them it is doubtful our ancestors would have survived.. > > Diseases were brought by mariners from many foreign countries long before > the Pilgrims arrived so why are the Pilgrims blamed? It was because of > the sickness that reduced the tribes population many years prior to the > Pilgrims arrival that the Indians were cautious and feared the white man. > Trouble with the Indians did not begin until years later- after immigrants > arrived from many countries - so why are the Pilgrims blamed? > Why not study history and put the blame where it belongs and do we really > need to blame anyone nearly 400 years later? > > I wonder how many of the spokesmen are members of the Wampanoag tribe and > have really studied the history of the Pilgrims. The rock is a symbol of > civil and religous liberty and not to be confused with the problems which > arose later with the great migration. I believe we have enough problems > in this world without creating more. > > Relatively yours, > Muriel Curtis Cushing > > > PLYMOUTH (Nov. 30) - Car traffic stopped Thursday, Thanksgiving Day, as > marchers followed a group of native dancers, who stomped to drum beats > along Water Street, in front of Plymouth Rock. > The march was part of the United American Indians of New England (UAINE) > annual Day of Mourning. Since 1970, the group has gathered on Cole's Hill > to hear native speakers and singers. The crowd then marches from Leyden > Street to Water Street. > > Raul Ruiz, a member of the Mexica nation, spoke to the crowd of about 200. > > "Year after year we come here to celebrate and to mourn," he said. Ruiz > spoke of celebrating American Indian culture and heritage, and mourning the > arrival of the Pilgrims. With them the Pilgrims brought racism and > violence. The rock is a monument to genocide and injustice, he said. > > "Who wants to break that rock," he shouted to the crowd. > > "Break it," he said, and the crowd cheered loudly, but did not move. > > "With our history," Ruiz said, "we will break it. With our love for > justice, we will break it. With our dance, we will break it," he said. > > In 1970, UAINE declared Thanksgiving Day a National Day of Mourning, > co-leader Moonanum James said. James' father, Wamsutta Frank James, an > Aquinnah Wampanoag man, had been invited to speak at a state dinner, > celebrating the 350th anniversary of the Pilgrims arrival. When banquet > organizers read James' speech about the Pilgrims' treatment of the the > Indians, he was told he would not be allowed to speak. > > "If my father had been allowed to speak, he would have said, 'Today is a > time of celebration for you, but it is not a time of celebrating for me.' " > > James said he wanted people to know the truth about the settlers' treatment > of the Indians. "We are not passive victims. We are like the dirt, like the > sand and like the tide. We shall endure. We will stand and walk on > liberated ground," he said. "We will speak truth to power." > > UAINE co-leader Mahtowin Munro said she believes the native struggle is > about teaching her children native culture. "They are proud of who they are > and skeptical about what they learn in school" she said. "The Pilgrims did > not find an empty land any more than Columbus discovered anything. Every > inch of this land is native land." > > This year's Day of Mourning, as in past years, was dedicated to Leonard > Peltier, a political prisoner in the eyes of UAINE. A citizen of the > Anishinabe and Lakota Nations, Peltier has been in prison for 26 years for > the murder of two FBI agents. Peltier remains a Native American rights > advocate from behind bars. > > Andres Araica and his family sang several songs for the cold crowd. Araica > said he wanted people to understand the Day of Mourning, and why it > existed. As a teacher, he said he hoped people would re-investigate history > on their own, rather than believing what they learned from history books. > He also said he hoped people did not mistake the speakers' passion for > anger. > > Many in the crowd said learning more about history and the native struggle > is what brought them to Cole's Hill that day. > > Terry O'Brien came from Boston to join the Day of Mourning. "I think that > the U.S. needs to admit that the country was built on genocide and > slavery," he said. > > Carver's Kristal Weir said this was her fourth year attending the Day of > Mourning. Standing up to protect native heritage is important, she said. > > While UAINE's protest went on, the Federation of Old Plimoth Indian Tribes > occupied a tent on the waterfront down below. Rodney "Randy" Joseph said > the Federation has been having its Thanksgiving Day cultural exposition and > feast for several years. Joseph and other tribal representatives displayed > native artwork, genealogies and histories of native burial sites. > > Most tourists and locals responded well to the speakers and the march. Tina > Schumacher, who was visiting from Plymouth, N.H., said the speeches were > "humbling." Schumacher, visiting Plymouth resident Dave Calvin, said it was > interesting to see Thanksgiving from a different perspective. > > There were some, however, who did not receive UAINE's message well. As the > crowd assembled at the First Parish Church for a social gathering following > the march, one man drove by, honking his horn and holding up his middle > finger. > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I am accustomed to hearing malicious falsehoods about myself...but I think I have a right to object to libelous statements about my dog." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt Check out my genealogy web pages! http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/f/e/n/K-Fenton/index.html ~AND~ http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=twigsandbranches Recycle yourself! Tell someone you want to be an organ and tissue donor!

Good morning, I thought others on this list would be interested in the article which appeared in the Plymouth, MA "Old colony" newspaper this morning. Many of us on this list search for the truth and facts in our history. We provide documentation to suppport our findings. How can we let articles like this go unchallenged? It is a well known fact that the Pilgrims and Indians lived in harmony for over 50 years, that the Massachusetts Society of Mayflower Descendants gives a scholarship each year to a descendant of the Wampanoag tribe in gratitude for their ancestors help and friendliness. As descendants we know what we owe the Wampanoag tribe for without them it is doubtful our ancestors would have survived.. Diseases were brought by mariners from many foreign countries long before the Pilgrims arrived so why are the Pilgrims blamed? It was because of the sickness that reduced the tribes population many years prior to the Pilgrims arrival that the Indians were cautious and feared the white man. Trouble with the Indians did not begin until years later- after immigrants arrived from many countries - so why are the Pilgrims blamed? Why not study history and put the blame where it belongs and do we really need to blame anyone nearly 400 years later? I wonder how many of the spokesmen are members of the Wampanoag tribe and have really studied the history of the Pilgrims. The rock is a symbol of civil and religous liberty and not to be confused with the problems which arose later with the great migration. I believe we have enough problems in this world without creating more. Relatively yours, Muriel Curtis Cushing PLYMOUTH (Nov. 30) - Car traffic stopped Thursday, Thanksgiving Day, as marchers followed a group of native dancers, who stomped to drum beats along Water Street, in front of Plymouth Rock. The march was part of the United American Indians of New England (UAINE) annual Day of Mourning. Since 1970, the group has gathered on Cole's Hill to hear native speakers and singers. The crowd then marches from Leyden Street to Water Street. Raul Ruiz, a member of the Mexica nation, spoke to the crowd of about 200. "Year after year we come here to celebrate and to mourn," he said. Ruiz spoke of celebrating American Indian culture and heritage, and mourning the arrival of the Pilgrims. With them the Pilgrims brought racism and violence. The rock is a monument to genocide and injustice, he said. "Who wants to break that rock," he shouted to the crowd. "Break it," he said, and the crowd cheered loudly, but did not move. "With our history," Ruiz said, "we will break it. With our love for justice, we will break it. With our dance, we will break it," he said. In 1970, UAINE declared Thanksgiving Day a National Day of Mourning, co-leader Moonanum James said. James' father, Wamsutta Frank James, an Aquinnah Wampanoag man, had been invited to speak at a state dinner, celebrating the 350th anniversary of the Pilgrims arrival. When banquet organizers read James' speech about the Pilgrims' treatment of the the Indians, he was told he would not be allowed to speak. "If my father had been allowed to speak, he would have said, 'Today is a time of celebration for you, but it is not a time of celebrating for me.' " James said he wanted people to know the truth about the settlers' treatment of the Indians. "We are not passive victims. We are like the dirt, like the sand and like the tide. We shall endure. We will stand and walk on liberated ground," he said. "We will speak truth to power." UAINE co-leader Mahtowin Munro said she believes the native struggle is about teaching her children native culture. "They are proud of who they are and skeptical about what they learn in school" she said. "The Pilgrims did not find an empty land any more than Columbus discovered anything. Every inch of this land is native land." This year's Day of Mourning, as in past years, was dedicated to Leonard Peltier, a political prisoner in the eyes of UAINE. A citizen of the Anishinabe and Lakota Nations, Peltier has been in prison for 26 years for the murder of two FBI agents. Peltier remains a Native American rights advocate from behind bars. Andres Araica and his family sang several songs for the cold crowd. Araica said he wanted people to understand the Day of Mourning, and why it existed. As a teacher, he said he hoped people would re-investigate history on their own, rather than believing what they learned from history books. He also said he hoped people did not mistake the speakers' passion for anger. Many in the crowd said learning more about history and the native struggle is what brought them to Cole's Hill that day. Terry O'Brien came from Boston to join the Day of Mourning. "I think that the U.S. needs to admit that the country was built on genocide and slavery," he said. Carver's Kristal Weir said this was her fourth year attending the Day of Mourning. Standing up to protect native heritage is important, she said. While UAINE's protest went on, the Federation of Old Plimoth Indian Tribes occupied a tent on the waterfront down below. Rodney "Randy" Joseph said the Federation has been having its Thanksgiving Day cultural exposition and feast for several years. Joseph and other tribal representatives displayed native artwork, genealogies and histories of native burial sites. Most tourists and locals responded well to the speakers and the march. Tina Schumacher, who was visiting from Plymouth, N.H., said the speeches were "humbling." Schumacher, visiting Plymouth resident Dave Calvin, said it was interesting to see Thanksgiving from a different perspective. There were some, however, who did not receive UAINE's message well. As the crowd assembled at the First Parish Church for a social gathering following the march, one man drove by, honking his horn and holding up his middle finger.

Muriel and everyone; Some people like to complain. Some people have a need to rage. Our country was founded on the principles of allowing them to do so. As much as it greives me to hear false accusations, I always consider the source. More is communicated in hate and ignorance than in love and truth. We need only continue to stand for the principles of religious freedom and unity in the face of adversity as did our Pilgrim ancestors and we, tto, will endure. Chin up, my friend. This may a a disparaging article, but it didn't promote the falsehoods. It reported them. And it quoted the teacher, with whom I agree, who said he hoped people would re-investigate history on their own, rather than believing what they learned from history books (and I would add, blanket accusations by radicals with an agenda). Father John Haldane (Alden, Brewster, Doty, Hopkins, Mullins, Samson, Standish) >From: muriel cushing <flash1620@comcast.net> >To: MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [MFLR] Fw: >Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 09:28:21 -0500 > >Good morning, > >I thought others on this list would be interested in the article which >appeared in the Plymouth, MA "Old colony" newspaper this morning. > >Many of us on this list search for the truth and facts in our history. We >provide documentation to suppport our findings. How can we let articles >like this go unchallenged? It is a well known fact that the Pilgrims >and Indians lived in harmony for over 50 years, that the Massachusetts >Society of Mayflower Descendants gives a scholarship each year to a >descendant of the Wampanoag tribe in gratitude for their ancestors help and >friendliness. As descendants we know what we owe the Wampanoag tribe for >without them it is doubtful our ancestors would have survived.. > >Diseases were brought by mariners from many foreign countries long before >the Pilgrims arrived so why are the Pilgrims blamed? It was because of >the sickness that reduced the tribes population many years prior to the >Pilgrims arrival that the Indians were cautious and feared the white man. >Trouble with the Indians did not begin until years later- after immigrants >arrived from many countries - so why are the Pilgrims blamed? >Why not study history and put the blame where it belongs and do we really >need to blame anyone nearly 400 years later? > >I wonder how many of the spokesmen are members of the Wampanoag tribe and >have really studied the history of the Pilgrims. The rock is a symbol of >civil and religous liberty and not to be confused with the problems which >arose later with the great migration. I believe we have enough problems >in this world without creating more. > >Relatively yours, >Muriel Curtis Cushing > > >PLYMOUTH (Nov. 30) - Car traffic stopped Thursday, Thanksgiving Day, as >marchers followed a group of native dancers, who stomped to drum beats >along Water Street, in front of Plymouth Rock. >The march was part of the United American Indians of New England (UAINE) >annual Day of Mourning. Since 1970, the group has gathered on Cole's Hill >to hear native speakers and singers. The crowd then marches from Leyden >Street to Water Street. > >Raul Ruiz, a member of the Mexica nation, spoke to the crowd of about 200. > >"Year after year we come here to celebrate and to mourn," he said. Ruiz >spoke of celebrating American Indian culture and heritage, and mourning the >arrival of the Pilgrims. With them the Pilgrims brought racism and >violence. The rock is a monument to genocide and injustice, he said. > >"Who wants to break that rock," he shouted to the crowd. > >"Break it," he said, and the crowd cheered loudly, but did not move. > >"With our history," Ruiz said, "we will break it. With our love for >justice, we will break it. With our dance, we will break it," he said. > >In 1970, UAINE declared Thanksgiving Day a National Day of Mourning, >co-leader Moonanum James said. James' father, Wamsutta Frank James, an >Aquinnah Wampanoag man, had been invited to speak at a state dinner, >celebrating the 350th anniversary of the Pilgrims arrival. When banquet >organizers read James' speech about the Pilgrims' treatment of the the >Indians, he was told he would not be allowed to speak. > >"If my father had been allowed to speak, he would have said, 'Today is a >time of celebration for you, but it is not a time of celebrating for me.' " > >James said he wanted people to know the truth about the settlers' treatment >of the Indians. "We are not passive victims. We are like the dirt, like the >sand and like the tide. We shall endure. We will stand and walk on >liberated ground," he said. "We will speak truth to power." > >UAINE co-leader Mahtowin Munro said she believes the native struggle is >about teaching her children native culture. "They are proud of who they are >and skeptical about what they learn in school" she said. "The Pilgrims did >not find an empty land any more than Columbus discovered anything. Every >inch of this land is native land." > >This year's Day of Mourning, as in past years, was dedicated to Leonard >Peltier, a political prisoner in the eyes of UAINE. A citizen of the >Anishinabe and Lakota Nations, Peltier has been in prison for 26 years for >the murder of two FBI agents. Peltier remains a Native American rights >advocate from behind bars. > >Andres Araica and his family sang several songs for the cold crowd. Araica >said he wanted people to understand the Day of Mourning, and why it >existed. As a teacher, he said he hoped people would re-investigate history >on their own, rather than believing what they learned from history books. >He also said he hoped people did not mistake the speakers' passion for >anger. > >Many in the crowd said learning more about history and the native struggle >is what brought them to Cole's Hill that day. > >Terry O'Brien came from Boston to join the Day of Mourning. "I think that >the U.S. needs to admit that the country was built on genocide and >slavery," he said. > >Carver's Kristal Weir said this was her fourth year attending the Day of >Mourning. Standing up to protect native heritage is important, she said. > >While UAINE's protest went on, the Federation of Old Plimoth Indian Tribes >occupied a tent on the waterfront down below. Rodney "Randy" Joseph said >the Federation has been having its Thanksgiving Day cultural exposition and >feast for several years. Joseph and other tribal representatives displayed >native artwork, genealogies and histories of native burial sites. > >Most tourists and locals responded well to the speakers and the march. Tina >Schumacher, who was visiting from Plymouth, N.H., said the speeches were >"humbling." Schumacher, visiting Plymouth resident Dave Calvin, said it was >interesting to see Thanksgiving from a different perspective. > >There were some, however, who did not receive UAINE's message well. As the >crowd assembled at the First Parish Church for a social gathering following >the march, one man drove by, honking his horn and holding up his middle >finger. > > > > > >==== MAYFLOWER Mailing List ==== >Check out the web page of the General Society of Mayflower Descendants at >http://www.mayflower.org/ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

I'm probably late coming in on this one - just read the version of the "Thanksgiving History" which was posted. Boy, where do I start with the inaccuracies below??? Although I do realize an attempt was made at humour... even attempts at humour should be accurate when relating historical events. I'm sure most of you have already spotted the errors, but in case some haven't, please do not use the details in the post below as relating a true historical account of the Thanksgiving of 1621. Just to quickly cite a few of the obvious "problems" below....they were Separatists, not Puritans; approx. 50 survived the first winter and spring, not 56; it was not the last Thanksgiving "for many years to come" although it may have been the only one at which such a large number of Indians were present. (Days of thanksgiving were often held.) Scrounge up eating utensils for 147 people & find enough tables & chairs???? I don't think I need to cover that one! No turkeys?? There most certainly WERE turkeys at this meal - we have this straight from Gov. Bradford where he relates there was a "great store of wild turkeys, of which they took many". Susan E. Roser www.rootsweb.com/~canms/canada.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Betty White" <bwhite@westelcom.com> To: <MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 10:29 AM Subject: [MFLR] Fw: Thanksgiving History > > > >The Way I See It > > > >By Sharon Bouchard > > > > > > > > It's that time of the year when the chief cooks and bottle washers of > > the households turn to browse through recipes in anticipation of > > Thanksgiving dinner. Boy, it's hard to believe that it's just two weeks > > away. It always seems to sneak up on us as a big surprise, yet we have > been > > giving thanks on the same Thursday in November for how long? Since 1621? > > Well, not exactly. > > > > > > > > The history books tell us that the Pilgrims celebrated the first > > Thanksgiving feast in the fall of 1621 to give thanks for the bountiful > > harvest and for those who survived the first year in the new land. The > > history books also tell us that Massasoit, chief of the Wampanong tribe > and > > ninety of his braves were invited guests at the first feast. There is no > > mention of the Wampanog women. > > > > > > > > The history books further tell us that Thanksgiving of 1621 was not > only > > the first, but also the last celebration of its kind for many years to > come. > > The story goes that though the first harvest was bountiful, the harvests > for > > the next several years were poor and the influx of new immigrants creating > > new mouths to feed prevented the celebration of Thanksgiving being held on > > an annual basis. That's what the history books tell us, but I have my own > > theory on that subject. > > > > > > > > It has been documented that of the 102 original Pilgrims that landed > in > > Plymouth, only 56 were left by the fall of 1621. Of the 56, only 4 were > > adult women and there were 2 teenage girls. As previously mentioned, > Chief > > Massasoit and 90 of his braves were guests at that first Thanksgiving > > dinner. A little quick addition will tell you that 56 Pilgrims and 91 > > Indians equals 147 people to be cooked for by 4 women and 2 teenage girls. > > > > > > > > If I had been one of those Pilgrim women, I can tell you I wouldn't > have > > been too crazy about cooking for that kind of crowd ever again. I have a > > feeling that those sweet Puritan ladies probably staged the first women's > > protest in the fall of 1622 when told to prepare another banquet. > > > > > > > > I mean, consider what they went through on that first feast. They had > > to do all the pre-Thanksgiving cleaning, even huts and crude cabins had to > > be cleaned. Then they had to scrounge up enough eating utensils to > service > > 147 people, not to mention finding enough tables and chairs. It's not > like > > they could just call their local rental place to get them. > > > > > > > > Then the cooking had to be done. The menu consisted of ducks and > geese > > (there is no proof that they had turkey) lobsters, clams, bass, corn, > green > > vegetables, venison, cranberries, boiled pumpkins and dried fruit. They > had > > run out of flour that they had brought from the old country so they didn't > > have to bake any pies or bread (small blessing). However, they did have > to > > make some type of fritter by boiling corn into a mash and then frying it > in > > venison fat. This foodscape had to be abundant enough to feed 147 people. > > > > > > > > Just think about that! No gas or electric range, no microwave, no > > electric mixers or blenders, no pre-mixed pre-packaged, canned or frozen > > anything. > > > > > > > > Even though the men did the hunting, who do you suppose gutted and > > plucked the ducks and geese? Who do you think gutted and cut-up the > > venison? Who would you guess cleaned the fish, clams and lobsters and, > who > > I ask you, do you think picked all the vegetables? I'll tell you. Four > > women and 2 teenage girls, that's who. This little sit-down shindig for > 147 > > people was cooked in cast iron pots over open fire by 4 women and 2 > > teenagers. I find that absolutely amazing. > > > > > > > > Then of course there was the cleanup after the meal and all those > dishes > > to be washed. We're not talking about use of a dishwasher here, we're not > > even talking about a sink with hot and cold running water. Pots of > boiling > > water that had to be lugged from the local creek, that's what we're > talking > > about. > > > > > > > > And just what do you think the 141 men and boys were doing while the 4 > > women and 2 girls were doing dishes? They were playing games! I kid you > > not! According to the history books good old Miles Standish and his > > settlers and good old Chief Massasoit and his braves were playing games > > while the women cleaned up. They had foot races and jumping matches, > > shooting and bow and arrow contests. They filled their bellies and then > > proceeded to have themselves one heck of a good time. The women did all > the > > work while the men enjoyed fun and games. Does that sound familiar? > > > > > > > > Well, the way I figure it, by the time the next Thanksgiving rolled > > around and Miles and the boys wanted to invite Massasoit and his boys over > > for a little dinner and a few games, the women protested and maybe even > went > > on strike. And that's probably why the first Thanksgiving was the last > one > > for many, many years. You won't find that notion in the history books, > but > > it is history the way I see it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________

Subject: "Giving thanks"... Greetings: Thank you for sharing your insight, and wisdom. Your posts empower all of us to better understand the path that our forefathers walked.. In regard to the *faith* of those Pilgrims who were later referred to as "Saints": To me, their faith is most easily understood -- as my siblings and I were raised with a number of these same core beliefs, and principles. Sometimes, in understanding "from whence we sprang," we better understand ourselves. Have a blessed Thanksgiving... Most sincerely, Cathy PORTER-Maynard <>< [William Brewster / Richard Warren] ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ "GIVE THANKS ( ! ) ... during the good times; and, the bad. For Our God is not the *cause* adversity or sorrow; indeed, He is ' The Peace that surpasses all understanding ' in the midst of the storm... " ================================================= In a message dated 11/28/2002 7:53:09 AM Central Standard Time, chandler@firstva.com writes: -- snip snip -- > > Second thing. A couple of my posts have had to do with the religious > beliefs of the Pilgrims. Obviously I'm not trying to promote any > particular > beliefs. Their religion mattered to these people. They were living a > desperate life in a dangerous, harsh, and what had to be an almost > unbearably lonely place because of their religion. Again and again they > left what could have been a comfortable life had they simply gone along > with > the population as a whole and went off into terribly perilous situations. > How could it matter so much to them, and how could it matter so much to the > people they were escaping that the powers in England would be willing to > arrest, and even execute in ways that we don't want to think about, people > for their ideas? It seems to me that it is clear on the face of it that it > was religion that literally "set these people apart," and to try to > understand them and how they understood the meaning of their world we need > to try to understand their religion. > > At the same time it should be remembered that not all the settlers were of > the church, and there may have been those in early Plymouth who did not > drag > their semi-starved bodies out into the stinking muck at low tide to grope > for the same disgusting cold clams day after day and ankle deep in frigid > mud that smells like nothing good on earth and shivering in that cold, wet > Cape Cod fog that makes your bones ache raise their eyes to heaven and sing > out ,"Thank you God, for these blessings." But some did, and that seems > like something worth trying to understand. > > > > > > > > ==== MAYFLOWER Mailing List ==== > Check out the Mayflower FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions)page at > http://www.macatawa.org/~crich/mayfaq.htm . > >

Lucy, What a wonderful tradition! Thank you so much for sharing it with us. Today is the perfect day to share other "Pilgrim" traditions - do we have more out there?? Susan. www.rootsweb.com/~canms/canada.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lucy Peterson" <lucyqp@earthlink.net> To: <MAYFLOWER-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 3:12 AM Subject: Re: [MFLR] Kernels of Corn > Just to add one thought to the five kernels of corn idea. We have used > this for several years in our family. We do not use the dry kernels or > put them in a bag. We put 5 kernels on each plate and before eating the > meal each person names something he/she is thankful for as they eat a > kernel. Sometimes each person names all five and sometimes we go around > the table(s) naming one at a time. This continues until each kernel has > been eaten and only then do we bless and start the regular meal. When > the children were little we always asked if they thought they had eaten > enough for the day... and then of course reminded them that the pilgrims > had so very little for so a long time. Harlow's reminder of their > reliance on and gratitude for divinity was right on. I think the 5 > kernels has helped me make this a little more graphic and memorable for > my children. And it gives us each a moment to pause and reflect on both > our blessings and our ancestors (and maybe hardships that could pass for > us, too) during an otherwise very busy day. > Happy Thanksgiving to all! > Lucy >

> > >The Way I See It > > >By Sharon Bouchard > > > > > > It's that time of the year when the chief cooks and bottle washers of > the households turn to browse through recipes in anticipation of > Thanksgiving dinner. Boy, it's hard to believe that it's just two weeks > away. It always seems to sneak up on us as a big surprise, yet we have been > giving thanks on the same Thursday in November for how long? Since 1621? > Well, not exactly. > > > > > > The history books tell us that the Pilgrims celebrated the first > Thanksgiving feast in the fall of 1621 to give thanks for the bountiful > harvest and for those who survived the first year in the new land. The > history books also tell us that Massasoit, chief of the Wampanong tribe and > ninety of his braves were invited guests at the first feast. There is no > mention of the Wampanog women. > > > > > > The history books further tell us that Thanksgiving of 1621 was not only > the first, but also the last celebration of its kind for many years to come. > The story goes that though the first harvest was bountiful, the harvests for > the next several years were poor and the influx of new immigrants creating > new mouths to feed prevented the celebration of Thanksgiving being held on > an annual basis. That's what the history books tell us, but I have my own > theory on that subject. > > > > > > It has been documented that of the 102 original Pilgrims that landed in > Plymouth, only 56 were left by the fall of 1621. Of the 56, only 4 were > adult women and there were 2 teenage girls. As previously mentioned, Chief > Massasoit and 90 of his braves were guests at that first Thanksgiving > dinner. A little quick addition will tell you that 56 Pilgrims and 91 > Indians equals 147 people to be cooked for by 4 women and 2 teenage girls. > > > > > > If I had been one of those Pilgrim women, I can tell you I wouldn't have > been too crazy about cooking for that kind of crowd ever again. I have a > feeling that those sweet Puritan ladies probably staged the first women's > protest in the fall of 1622 when told to prepare another banquet. > > > > > > I mean, consider what they went through on that first feast. They had > to do all the pre-Thanksgiving cleaning, even huts and crude cabins had to > be cleaned. Then they had to scrounge up enough eating utensils to service > 147 people, not to mention finding enough tables and chairs. It's not like > they could just call their local rental place to get them. > > > > > > Then the cooking had to be done. The menu consisted of ducks and geese > (there is no proof that they had turkey) lobsters, clams, bass, corn, green > vegetables, venison, cranberries, boiled pumpkins and dried fruit. They had > run out of flour that they had brought from the old country so they didn't > have to bake any pies or bread (small blessing). However, they did have to > make some type of fritter by boiling corn into a mash and then frying it in > venison fat. This foodscape had to be abundant enough to feed 147 people. > > > > > > Just think about that! No gas or electric range, no microwave, no > electric mixers or blenders, no pre-mixed pre-packaged, canned or frozen > anything. > > > > > > Even though the men did the hunting, who do you suppose gutted and > plucked the ducks and geese? Who do you think gutted and cut-up the > venison? Who would you guess cleaned the fish, clams and lobsters and, who > I ask you, do you think picked all the vegetables? I'll tell you. Four > women and 2 teenage girls, that's who. This little sit-down shindig for 147 > people was cooked in cast iron pots over open fire by 4 women and 2 > teenagers. I find that absolutely amazing. > > > > > > Then of course there was the cleanup after the meal and all those dishes > to be washed. We're not talking about use of a dishwasher here, we're not > even talking about a sink with hot and cold running water. Pots of boiling > water that had to be lugged from the local creek, that's what we're talking > about. > > > > > > And just what do you think the 141 men and boys were doing while the 4 > women and 2 girls were doing dishes? They were playing games! I kid you > not! According to the history books good old Miles Standish and his > settlers and good old Chief Massasoit and his braves were playing games > while the women cleaned up. They had foot races and jumping matches, > shooting and bow and arrow contests. They filled their bellies and then > proceeded to have themselves one heck of a good time. The women did all the > work while the men enjoyed fun and games. Does that sound familiar? > > > > > > Well, the way I figure it, by the time the next Thanksgiving rolled > around and Miles and the boys wanted to invite Massasoit and his boys over > for a little dinner and a few games, the women protested and maybe even went > on strike. And that's probably why the first Thanksgiving was the last one > for many, many years. You won't find that notion in the history books, but > it is history the way I see it. > > > > > > > > > > >

Hello, I have recently had a Mayflower line approved. Email me if you are interested in the documentation. Carol 1 Elder William BREWSTER (1566 - 1644) & Mary ? ( - 1627) | 2 Elder Jonathan BREWSTER (1593 - 1659) | & Lucretia OLDHAM (1600 - ) | m. 10 Apr 1624, Plymouth | | 3 Mary BREWSTER (1627 - >1697) | | & John TURNER Sr. (1621 - >1697) | | m. 10/12 Nov 1645, Scituate, MA | | | 4 Deacon Joseph TURNER (1649 - 1724) | | | & Bathsheba HOBART (1640 - 1724) | | | m. 19 Nov 1674, Hingham, MA | | | | 5 Margaret TURNER (1677 - 1732) | | | | & Deacon Joseph STOCKBRIDGE (1672 - 1773) | | | | m. 20 Oct 1697, Scituate, MA | | | | | 6 Margaret STOCKBRIDGE (1708 - 1788) | | | | | & Deacon Samuel BARSTOW (1709 - >1801) | | | | | m. 26 Nov 1731, Hanover, MA | | | | | | 7 Seth BARSTOW (1742 - 1822) | | | | | | & Ruth ALLEN (1745 - 1816) | | | | | | m. 1 Dec 1766, Tisbury, MA | | | | | | | 8 Peggy BARSTOW (1769 - ~1822) | | | | | | | & Daniel LINDSLEY (1768 - 1834) | | | | | | | m. abt 1793 | | | | | | | | 9 Lavinia LINSLEY (1810 - 1892) | | | | | | | | & George Talcott BUCKINGHAM (1806 - 1846) | | | | | | | | m. 2 Jun 1829, Huron Co., OH | | | | | | | | | 10 Harriet Talcott BUCKINGHAM (1832 - 1890) | | | | | | | | | & Samuel Asahel CLARKE (1827 - 1909) | | | | | | | | | m. 23 Feb 1852, Portland, Multnomah Co., Oregon | | | | | | | | | | 11 William Jessup CLARKE (1857 - 1919) | | | | | | | | | | & Laura(Ta) I. Pearl LUY (1873 - 1955) | | | | | | | | | | m. 5 Sep 1892, Jacksonville, Oregon | | | | | | | | | | | 12 Frances Hariot CLARKE (1896 - 1988) | | | | | | | | | | | & Samuel Frederick STOCKUM (1894 - 1984) | | | | | | | | | | | m. 14 Sep 1918, Portland, Multnomah Co., Oregon

The "Thanksgiving" menu has been mentioned in a couple of posts. What Bradford said was this: "They began now to gather in the small harvest they had, and to fit up their houses and dwellings against winter, being all well recovered in health and strength and had all things in good plenty. For as some were thus employed in affairs abroad, others were exercised in fishing, about cod and bass and other fish, of which they took good store, of which every family had their portion. All summer there was no want; and now began to come in store of fowl, as winter approached, of which this place did abound when they came first (but afterward decreased by degrees). And besides waterfowl there was great store of wild turkeys, of which they took many, besides venison, etc. Besides they had about a peck of meal a week to a person, or now since harvest, Indian corn to that proportion." (_Of Plymouth Plantation_, NY, 1967, p. 90) That's the food they had on hand, there was no grocery store in the neighborhood, so I suppose that's what they ate on this "first Thanksgiving." It is interesting that Bradford and presumably the rest of the settlers seem to have considered the conventional diet of the seventeenth-century Englishman to have been the standard of a healthful diet, whereas a current day nutritionist would would look on what the English of the day ate with fear and loathing and would, I think, tell us that what the Plymouth colonists ate was far more healthful. In an earlier post I quoted Bradford as being surprised that the colonists who ate such a coarse diet should have lived so long--today we would say that was one of the reasons they did live so long. Two other things for those who have the patience. First, the "first Thanksgiving" is something that is in continual dispute among people who want to be literal about it. I personally cannot imagine that there has ever been a human culture which held a belief in a supreme being which did not have some sort of ritualized celebration of thanks. The Thanksgiving of our culture probably is the product of many influences, some of which can be traced and others not. The food industry certainly has something to do with it. The AFL does pretty well by it. The politics of the Civil War had something to do with it--here is part of Lincoln's Thanksgiving Proclamation which many think of as the "official" origin of our Thanksgiving: "It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently, and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American people. I do, therefore, invite my fellow-citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next as a day of thanksgiving and praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the heavens. And I recommend to them that, while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners, or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty hand to heal the wounds of the nation, and to restore it, as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes, to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquility, and union." Now some may point out that this proclamation was made at a time when things didn't look too good for the Union, and that an observance which stressed "one heart" and "one voice" of the "whole American people," and which conspicuously brought God into the mix might have some political utility. But surely Lincoln did yearn for peace and healing and it is easier for me to believe that this proclamation is sincere than to believe that it was founded solely in cynical political motivations. The point is that Thanksgiving is an accumulation of many currents of meanin gs and feelings. It is a symbolic holiday, and symbols tend to be fuzzy and imprecise and have their roots in many different things, all of which come together in the symbol. We Mayflower descendants, who, not to be too delicate about it, have been thought of with some justice as being a group sometimes more concerned with exclusiveness than inclusiveness, perhaps ought to be thankful that our countrymen are so willing to, speaking figuratively, invite us to the national Thanksgiving feast and to recognize that in terms of ideas if not genetics, every American is a Mayflower descendant, as every American is a descendant in his ideas and values and shared mythology of so many other cultures. Second thing. A couple of my posts have had to do with the religious beliefs of the Pilgrims. Obviously I'm not trying to promote any particular beliefs. Their religion mattered to these people. They were living a desperate life in a dangerous, harsh, and what had to be an almost unbearably lonely place because of their religion. Again and again they left what could have been a comfortable life had they simply gone along with the population as a whole and went off into terribly perilous situations. How could it matter so much to them, and how could it matter so much to the people they were escaping that the powers in England would be willing to arrest, and even execute in ways that we don't want to think about, people for their ideas? It seems to me that it is clear on the face of it that it was religion that literally "set these people apart," and to try to understand them and how they understood the meaning of their world we need to try to understand their religion. At the same time it should be remembered that not all the settlers were of the church, and there may have been those in early Plymouth who did not drag their semi-starved bodies out into the stinking muck at low tide to grope for the same disgusting cold clams day after day and ankle deep in frigid mud that smells like nothing good on earth and shivering in that cold, wet Cape Cod fog that makes your bones ache raise their eyes to heaven and sing out ,"Thank you God, for these blessings." But some did, and that seems like something worth trying to understand.

I am curious as to why fish is not mentioned as one of the foods the Pilgrims ate on that first Thanksgiving as well as warding off hunger during those extreme,y lean times. They were living nearly on the beach and also nearby ponds wher both salt and fresh water fish were available. We are having fish for at our Thanksgiving dinner. Barbara

Just to add one thought to the five kernels of corn idea. We have used this for several years in our family. We do not use the dry kernels or put them in a bag. We put 5 kernels on each plate and before eating the meal each person names something he/she is thankful for as they eat a kernel. Sometimes each person names all five and sometimes we go around the table(s) naming one at a time. This continues until each kernel has been eaten and only then do we bless and start the regular meal. When the children were little we always asked if they thought they had eaten enough for the day... and then of course reminded them that the pilgrims had so very little for so a long time. Harlow's reminder of their reliance on and gratitude for divinity was right on. I think the 5 kernels has helped me make this a little more graphic and memorable for my children. And it gives us each a moment to pause and reflect on both our blessings and our ancestors (and maybe hardships that could pass for us, too) during an otherwise very busy day. Happy Thanksgiving to all! Lucy

I just received this from another list and thought I would pass it on. Karen Flanders Eddy Thanksgiving Day Myths By Timothy Walch Mr. Walch is the director of the Herbert Hoover Presidential Library in West Branch, Iowa, and a writer for the History News Service. His book, Uncommon Americans: The Lives and Legacies of Herbert and Lou Henry Hoover, will be published in 2003. Thanksgiving dinner: never has the history of a meal been so obscured by myth. Every year on the fourth Thursday in November, Americans sit down to eat with family and friends. Some gather to give thanks for all that they have received over the previous year; others get together just to enjoy turkey and football. We all celebrate Thanksgiving in our own ways. So what do most Americans believe happened on that first Thanksgiving Day? Most still cling to what they learned in elementary school. The Pilgrims sat down with Indians for a big meal of turkey, cornbread, cranberries and pumpkin pie. The Pilgrims dressed in black, and the Indians wore feathers and colorful beads. In fact, many Americans today still recall if they were "pilgrims" or "Indians" in their school pageants. It's a charming story, but it's a myth. To be sure, it's a powerful one -- one that will be repeated many times this November. The fact that it's so pervasive is evidence that American myths have long lives. So what are the facts of that first Thanksgiving? In fact, the Pilgrims of the Plymouth Colony in today's Massachusetts did share a meal with the Wampanoag Indians in the autumn of 1621, but the rest of the details are uncertain. The only documentary evidence of the event comes from the journal of Plymouth Colony's governor, Edward Winslow, who noted simply that the colonists met with Chief Massasoit and 90 of his men for a feast that lasted four days. No one worried about cholesterol or obesity in 1621! Though they don't have much evidence, historians and archaeologists do have an educated hypothesis of what the Pilgrims ate, how they ate, when they ate and what they wore at that first Thanksgiving meal. The historical facts are not at all like the scene usually painted in elementary school. Start with the menu. It's not likely that the Pilgrims and the Indians consumed any bread dressing, mashed potatoes or pumpkin pie. In fact, it is not likely that they ate any roast turkey either. The only items listed in Winslow's journal were "venison and wild fowl," and it is likely that dried corn and fruit filled out the bill of fare. In colonial times, a person ate what was available, when it was available. No one back then saved room for pumpkin pie. Another myth has to do with how the meal was served. The Pilgrims and the Indians did not, as the myth has it, sit down at tables, bless their food or pass the serving dishes. It's more likely that food was set out on every available flat surface: tables, boxes, benches, and tree stumps. The meal was consumed without ceremony over three days, whenever someone was hungry. No one used plates or eating utensils. Although both the colonists and the Indians occasionally used cloths or napkins if the food was hot, they usually ate with their hands. And not everyone ate everything that was served. Most diners ate what they liked or whatever dish was closest to them. Finally, it's important to dispel one last Thanksgiving myth -- that the Pilgrims dressed in black and white clothing, wore pointed hats and starched bonnets and favored buckles on their shoes. It's true that they dressed in black on Sundays; but on most days, including the first Thanksgiving, they dressed in white, beige, black, green and brown. And it's likely that the Indians were fully clothed to ward off the chill of autumn in New England. Who would wear only a loincloth in Massachusetts in November? So it's a good thing that Americans today are not tested on the history of that first Thanksgiving, because few of us would earn a passing grade. It seems that the historical evidence of Thanksgiving is not as compelling as the myths that cloud our memories. It's too bad that childhood images of Pilgrims and Indians aren't based on historical facts. And yet there's a legacy about this holiday that threads its way from past to the present and defies both myth and historical evidence. That legacy is generosity. To be sure, Americans today may not be as religious as the Pilgrims, but most Americans do share their plenty with their family and friends on this special day. It's a holiday that brings all Americans, no matter their creed or disposition, together. And that's something worthy of our thanks.

Harlow - I very much enjoyed your post, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. Liberties may have been taken over the years with the "5 kernels of corn" story but I think the site at the Plantation (http://www.plimoth.org/Library/fivekern.htm ) is being a little too critical. Of course the corn was not rationed at 5 kernels a day! The 5 kernels are merely symbolic of a time of want. Also, to say the story is a "myth gradually faded from public memory, and is seldom referred to today" is certainly not true. Many state societies of the General Society relate this story at their Compact Meeting each fall and many place 5 kernels at each plate as Gail mentioned. I too know people who carry around their 5 kernels in a tiny plastic bag and I know how much these "symbols" mean to them. After carefully re-reading Bradford, I do agree with the site when it says that he does not mention rationing corn in 1623 - I could find no reference to this and will take it out of my version. (While I used Bradford as a reference I also used other sources - I should have stuck to Bradford!). However, it is clear that in the period between the fall of 1621-fall 1623 occurred two years of "want". During this period he mentions "weakness for want of food", "low and poor condition", "hungry bellies". After the arrival of the Fortune in 1621 rations were cut in half ("half allowance") and in 1622, upon building the fort he states "It was great work for them in this weakness and time of wants". The same year he states that "famine began now to pinch them sore" and bread was rationed . The 5 kernels of corn are symbolic of the struggles and hardships our ancestors endured during the early years and more importantly, as Harlow pointed out, for the fact that they did endure and they did survive.I will be revising the story on our web site to reflect this. Susan E. Roser. (PS Happy Thanksgiving!) www.rootsweb.com/~canms/canada.html

All, Since the will of John SHAW (who married Alice PHILLIPS) mentions his daughter Elizabeth, wife of Joseph POOLE, it is clear who Mrs. POOLE's parents were. Who Mrs. BATES's parents were is the issue. Apparently Chamberlain erred in his statements on p. 23. At 05:14 PM 11/26/02 -0500, ChristieTrapp@aol.com wrote: >Hi list: > >I've got a stumbling block and I'm hoping the list might offer some >suggestions for further research or perhaps someone is a descendant who has >documented sources to settle my problem. Perhaps providing a third source >that provides the same family information that I will be citing below can >confirm or deny what each of these authors have stated. > >Chamberlain has been mostly accurate with what was written, but by going >through these names as I have done, I have found that on one family he has >posted a lot of information about both parties to the marriage and their >children and in others there is sometimes a blank line to indicate an unknown >surname of a particular spouse, but turning to that surname of the other >spouse clears it up. > >But in the meantime I need the list to help me solve my stumbling block as to >the family structure and relationships. > >I researched Chamberlain's Genealogies of the Early Families of Weymouth, >Massachusetts and now am comparing it to a New England Historic Genealogical >Society article which appeared in the April 1965 volume on the Descendants of >Andrew Ford of Weymouth, Mass. A third source covers one of the children >which will be discussed below and marked with two astericks and followed up >after that with the information from this third source. > >Here's my problem so far: > >On page 118 of the Andrew Ford genealogy it is discussing the children of >Hezekiah Ford and his first wife, Ruth Whitmarsh (his second wife was Sarah >Magoun). Among his children is a daughter Ruth, b. 3 May 1716; d. at the >home of her daughter, Naomi (Reed) Hersey, 9 Jan. 1791; m. (1) in Abington, >27 Nov. 1735, Joseph Pool (also spelled Poole in Chamberlain's), b. probably >in Weymouth 11 Feb. 1716/17, d. about 1738, son of Samuel and Sarah (Nash) >Pool; m. (2), in Abington, 30 Aug 1741, James Reed, b. there 12 Oct. 1716, d. >aged 37, son of John and Mary (Whitmarsh) Reed; m. (3) in Bridgewater, 31 May >1764, as his second wife, Samuel Porter of East Bridgewater, b. in Weymouth >14 May 1699, son of Samuel and Mary (Nash) Porter. After the death of her >third husband Ruth moved to Whitman to live with her daughter, Naomi (Reed) >Hersey. > >Ruth and Joseph Pool had children: >Ruth, b. 18 Oct 1736; m. Noah Gurney. >Hannah, b. 16 Dec. 1738; m. Micah Sampson** > >Ruth and James Reed had children: >Joseph, b. 9 Aug. 1742; d. unm. >Hezekiah, b. 23 Feb 1744/5; m. Deborah Tirrell >Jeremiah, b. 4 Oct. 1746; d. 11 Dec 1747 >Jeremiah, b. 11 April 1747; m. Sarh Tirrell >Olive, b. 2 Feb 1748/9; probably d. young. >Naomi, b. in 1751 m. Obadiah Hersey > >In Chamberlain's genealogies I have discovered a problem and wonder if anyone >can help me sort it out. > >Looking at p. 475 under Capt. Joseph Poole, b. 1656 it shows he married abt >1673 Elizabeth Shaw, daughter of John and Alice (Philips) Shaw, b. at >Weymouth, 26 Feb. 1655-56. He died in Weymouth between 11 Apr. and 16 May >1706. They had 9 children born between 1674 and 1690. The line does not >extend beyond the entry of the children born of this marriage. > >Moving to p. 612 under John Shaw, bap. Halifax, Eng. 1630 it shows he married >Alice Philips, who was the mother of all his children. It lists Elizabeth, >b. 26 Feb 1655-56 and states she married Joseph Poole of Weymouth. > >Okay, everything matches between the Descendants of Andrew Ford and >Chamberlain; however, here's my problem. Before I came across the >Descendants of Andrew Ford, it had been researching and entering the data >into my computer by following many of my other family surnames, one of them >being Bates. > >I had entered into my database from previous research in Chamberlain for my >Bates family an Elizabeth Shaw who married Edward Bates. Despite the fact >that no parents are listed in Chamberlain for her under this entry, I went to >the Shaw side and based on the dates provided, determined that her parents >should be John Shaw and Alice Philips. Therefore; moving back into the >alphabetic surnames to Bates, p. 23 and specifically Edward Bates, b. 10 Dec >1655 it says he married an Elizabeth Shaw, daughter of Dea. John Shaw, b. 26 >Feb. 1656, she died 6 July 1748 at Hingham. Edward and Elizabeth had 11 >children born between 1679 and probably before 1705 as the last child had no >date of birth given but the child previously to this was born 1701. The >spacing of their children are anywhere from 2-3 years apart based on the >dates of the births cited. > >Going forward to Deacon John Shaw, p. 613, he is born in Weymouth and married >to Hannah Whitmarsh, daughter of Nicholas and Hannah (___) Whitmarsh b. >Weymouth 25 Mar 1660-61. [Note: After entering lots of data into my >database from this source, I have determined that Nicholas Whitmarsh should >be married to Hannah Reed. > >Okay, now comes the fun part. Deacon John Shaw and Hannah Reed DID NOT have >a daughter Elizabeth born 1655. Their first child was born 1679 and the last >was born 1693. If she had Elizabeth in 1655/6, she would have been bearing >children for about 40 years. Wouldn't that be breaking medical science? Not >to mention the fact that she would have had to conceive Elizabeth at the age >of 5! > >Moving to page. 612 there is a John Shaw - described above - who married >Alice Philips who DOES HAVE a daughter Elizabeth. She more likely fits into >this family because the Deacon John Shaw which is on page 613 is her BROTHER >and NOT her father! > >Is it possible that Chamberlain made a mistake about the marriage between >Elizabeth Shaw and Edward Bates? Or did he make a mistake about the marriage >between Elizabeth Shaw and Joseph Pool(e)? > >Based on the dates of births for the children of Edward and Elizabeth and >Joseph and Elizabeth, it would not be possible that the Elizabeth listed are >one and the same person as the dates of their children tend to conflict or >override each other. > >Now, because of this confusion, I have two Elizabeth Shaws who married two >different men and having children by each that run concurrently an are both >born on the same date and place. What fun! > >**Mayflower Families Through Five Generations - Vol. 20, part 1, Henry >Sampson on pg. 132-133 it discusses the family of Michael (occasionally >Micah) Samson, b. 25 Dec 1732 wo married first in Abington to Hannah Pool, b. >Abington 16 Dec. 1738; d. there bet. Sept. 1775 and Nov 1780; dau. of Joseph >and Ruth (Ford) Pool. No Plymouth Co. PR for Joseph Pool. Michael (Micah) >is a descendant of Henry Sampson of the Mayflower. > >Any help would be appreciated. > >Christie Trapp Regards, Robert Robert L. Ward Genealogical Research 12236 Shadetree Lane, Laurel, MD 20708-2832 301-776-1659 http://www.rlward.com/ <info@rlward.com>

VERY WELL SAID Harlow - gave this reader food for thought!! Thank You - Terri PS. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone.

I have been subscribed to the list for some time, but never posted, so hello to everyone and thanks for sharing so much information. My mother and I have just finished our "Mayflower project", putting together our documents for our application. I would like to thank Sue Roser, who has provided much assistance, and who has recently welcomed us as members. The line we followed for our application is: Richard Warren Abigail Warren Abigail Snow James Ford Barnabas Ford Olive Ford (m. Thomas Barker) Olive Barker (Quaker: moved to Ontario in 1802/3) Isaac Barker Rogers Eunice Rogers Herbert Grose Walter Franklin Grose Ruth Grose Nancy Day (me) We have a second line which converges, as follows: Peter Brown(e) Mary Brown(e) Ebenezer Tinkham Joanna Tinkham Sarah Macomber Thomas Barker (m. Olive Ford) Olive Barker etc. I am interested in making contact with anyone either following these lines, or with knowledge of anyone in these lines and would be happy to share what information I have. Also, is there anyone else on the list who lives in Australia? It's a lonely place for a descendant of the Mayflower passengers. Nancy McAlary Brisbane, Australia

During the last couple of days we've been reminded of the "five kernels of corn" tradition. Susan Roser's website tells us that the tradition was begun in 1820 and I was pleased that Mary Ann referred us to a page which points out that the notion that there was actually a ration of five kernels of corn is unsubstantiated and contrary to common sense. But even if the settlers had endured a ration of five kernels of corn, what would that mean to us? Why would the Pilgrims themselves have had us observe such a tradition? When William Bradford wrote his history of the colony he wrote of a spirit he was grieved to see dying as the colonists became more worldly, and when he wrote of the starving time he wrote of a time which paradoxically may have been better than the later days of relative affluence. The starving time matters not because the Pilgrims suffered, but because they survived. And in Bradford's view they survived not because they were strong, for indeed they were weak, but because, in Bradford's view, God provided for them and sustained them. The starving times are meant to illustrate, as I believe Bradford's entire history is meant to illustrate, the utter dependence of man upon God. The core belief of the Calvinist is that man cannot save himself; that only God can save him. Bradford says, "all their victuals were spent and they were only to rest on God's providence; at night not many times knowing where to have a bit of anything the next day. And so, as one well observed, had need to pray that God would give them their daily bread, above all people in the world." (121-2) This is a time of want, but it is a time with its particular glory. Bradford continues, "Yet they bore these wants with great patience and alacrity of spirit; and that for so long a time as for the most part of two years." Bradford contrasts the Plymouth settlers to a group in a work by Peter Martyr who were reduced to eating, "dogs, toads and dead men," and says, "From these extremities the Lord in His goodness kept His people, and in their great wants preserved both their lives and healths. Let His name have the praise." (122) Later in the history Bradford says he must "take occasion not only to mention but greatly to admire the marvelous providence of God! That notwithstanding the many changes and hardships that these people went through, and the many enemies they had and difficulties they met withal, that so many of them should live to very old age!"(328) What is remarkable to Bradford is that it was not to be expected--it was not natural--that these poorly nourished, stressed people who endured "crosses, troubles, fears, wants and sorrows," should live so long. It was not natural; it was supernatural. He says, "Man lives not by bread only,...it is not by good and dainty fare, by peace and rest and heart's ease in enjoying the contentments and good things of this world only that preserves health and prolongs life; God in such examples would have the world see and behold that He can do it without them." (329) For Bradford and those Pilgrims who shared his beliefs the hunger, the betrayals, the poverty and debt, the terrors of the wilderness, were earthly reminders of their spiritual helplessness and that they survived when there seemed no earthly way they could survive was for them at once illustration and proof of the truth of their beliefs. Bradford, as much and maybe more than any of the Pilgrims, gave up a life of "peace and rest and heart's ease" for "crosses, troubles, fears, wants and sorrows." Most would probably have said he risked everything for the nothing represented by the five kernels of corn. But Bradford's eyes, I believe, saw that he had in fact risked nothing for the everything that those kernels can represent, for Bradford sees the starving time as proof that God can and will preserve His people when nothing in the world can save them. What we individually make of this in the twenty-first century is something for each of us to decide, and if five kernels of corn brings us to reflect on what our ancestors did and thought, what harm is there in that? Citations of Bradford's history are from the Modern Library edition of 1967, edited by Samuel Eliot Morison.

Here's a Web site from Plimoth Plantation with the "Five Kernals of Corn" story. Happy Thanksgiving to all. http://www.plimoth.org/Library/fivekern.htm Mary Ann Minneapolis

Hi list: I've got a stumbling block and I'm hoping the list might offer some suggestions for further research or perhaps someone is a descendant who has documented sources to settle my problem. Perhaps providing a third source that provides the same family information that I will be citing below can confirm or deny what each of these authors have stated. Chamberlain has been mostly accurate with what was written, but by going through these names as I have done, I have found that on one family he has posted a lot of information about both parties to the marriage and their children and in others there is sometimes a blank line to indicate an unknown surname of a particular spouse, but turning to that surname of the other spouse clears it up. But in the meantime I need the list to help me solve my stumbling block as to the family structure and relationships. I researched Chamberlain's Genealogies of the Early Families of Weymouth, Massachusetts and now am comparing it to a New England Historic Genealogical Society article which appeared in the April 1965 volume on the Descendants of Andrew Ford of Weymouth, Mass. A third source covers one of the children which will be discussed below and marked with two astericks and followed up after that with the information from this third source. Here's my problem so far: On page 118 of the Andrew Ford genealogy it is discussing the children of Hezekiah Ford and his first wife, Ruth Whitmarsh (his second wife was Sarah Magoun). Among his children is a daughter Ruth, b. 3 May 1716; d. at the home of her daughter, Naomi (Reed) Hersey, 9 Jan. 1791; m. (1) in Abington, 27 Nov. 1735, Joseph Pool (also spelled Poole in Chamberlain's), b. probably in Weymouth 11 Feb. 1716/17, d. about 1738, son of Samuel and Sarah (Nash) Pool; m. (2), in Abington, 30 Aug 1741, James Reed, b. there 12 Oct. 1716, d. aged 37, son of John and Mary (Whitmarsh) Reed; m. (3) in Bridgewater, 31 May 1764, as his second wife, Samuel Porter of East Bridgewater, b. in Weymouth 14 May 1699, son of Samuel and Mary (Nash) Porter. After the death of her third husband Ruth moved to Whitman to live with her daughter, Naomi (Reed) Hersey. Ruth and Joseph Pool had children: Ruth, b. 18 Oct 1736; m. Noah Gurney. Hannah, b. 16 Dec. 1738; m. Micah Sampson** Ruth and James Reed had children: Joseph, b. 9 Aug. 1742; d. unm. Hezekiah, b. 23 Feb 1744/5; m. Deborah Tirrell Jeremiah, b. 4 Oct. 1746; d. 11 Dec 1747 Jeremiah, b. 11 April 1747; m. Sarh Tirrell Olive, b. 2 Feb 1748/9; probably d. young. Naomi, b. in 1751 m. Obadiah Hersey In Chamberlain's genealogies I have discovered a problem and wonder if anyone can help me sort it out. Looking at p. 475 under Capt. Joseph Poole, b. 1656 it shows he married abt 1673 Elizabeth Shaw, daughter of John and Alice (Philips) Shaw, b. at Weymouth, 26 Feb. 1655-56. He died in Weymouth between 11 Apr. and 16 May 1706. They had 9 children born between 1674 and 1690. The line does not extend beyond the entry of the children born of this marriage. Moving to p. 612 under John Shaw, bap. Halifax, Eng. 1630 it shows he married Alice Philips, who was the mother of all his children. It lists Elizabeth, b. 26 Feb 1655-56 and states she married Joseph Poole of Weymouth. Okay, everything matches between the Descendants of Andrew Ford and Chamberlain; however, here's my problem. Before I came across the Descendants of Andrew Ford, it had been researching and entering the data into my computer by following many of my other family surnames, one of them being Bates. I had entered into my database from previous research in Chamberlain for my Bates family an Elizabeth Shaw who married Edward Bates. Despite the fact that no parents are listed in Chamberlain for her under this entry, I went to the Shaw side and based on the dates provided, determined that her parents should be John Shaw and Alice Philips. Therefore; moving back into the alphabetic surnames to Bates, p. 23 and specifically Edward Bates, b. 10 Dec 1655 it says he married an Elizabeth Shaw, daughter of Dea. John Shaw, b. 26 Feb. 1656, she died 6 July 1748 at Hingham. Edward and Elizabeth had 11 children born between 1679 and probably before 1705 as the last child had no date of birth given but the child previously to this was born 1701. The spacing of their children are anywhere from 2-3 years apart based on the dates of the births cited. Going forward to Deacon John Shaw, p. 613, he is born in Weymouth and married to Hannah Whitmarsh, daughter of Nicholas and Hannah (___) Whitmarsh b. Weymouth 25 Mar 1660-61. [Note: After entering lots of data into my database from this source, I have determined that Nicholas Whitmarsh should be married to Hannah Reed. Okay, now comes the fun part. Deacon John Shaw and Hannah Reed DID NOT have a daughter Elizabeth born 1655. Their first child was born 1679 and the last was born 1693. If she had Elizabeth in 1655/6, she would have been bearing children for about 40 years. Wouldn't that be breaking medical science? Not to mention the fact that she would have had to conceive Elizabeth at the age of 5! Moving to page. 612 there is a John Shaw - described above - who married Alice Philips who DOES HAVE a daughter Elizabeth. She more likely fits into this family because the Deacon John Shaw which is on page 613 is her BROTHER and NOT her father! Is it possible that Chamberlain made a mistake about the marriage between Elizabeth Shaw and Edward Bates? Or did he make a mistake about the marriage between Elizabeth Shaw and Joseph Pool(e)? Based on the dates of births for the children of Edward and Elizabeth and Joseph and Elizabeth, it would not be possible that the Elizabeth listed are one and the same person as the dates of their children tend to conflict or override each other. Now, because of this confusion, I have two Elizabeth Shaws who married two different men and having children by each that run concurrently an are both born on the same date and place. What fun! **Mayflower Families Through Five Generations - Vol. 20, part 1, Henry Sampson on pg. 132-133 it discusses the family of Michael (occasionally Micah) Samson, b. 25 Dec 1732 wo married first in Abington to Hannah Pool, b. Abington 16 Dec. 1738; d. there bet. Sept. 1775 and Nov 1780; dau. of Joseph and Ruth (Ford) Pool. No Plymouth Co. PR for Joseph Pool. Michael (Micah) is a descendant of Henry Sampson of the Mayflower. Any help would be appreciated. Christie Trapp

Thank you for the mathematical explanations regarding the 35 million figure for how many Mayflower descendants there are. And the "emotional support" for not feeling special when 14 - 15 % of the population can make the same claim, being a Mayflower Descendant, that is. I would have thought that there were less than 35 million ... I guess everyone else had that figure in mind? Oh well. Some good posts lately! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com