Annually, about this time of year, I update Mayflower mailing list members with some list statistics. One year ago this list had 647 members. Today we are at 610. That's a loss of about 5.5%. I know we've lost a few over the past month due to the large number of off-topic messages. Several people expressed to me their inability to keep up with so much e-mail -- even if they are subscribed to the digest version, which bundles up an entire day's massages into one packet. Don't forget about the Mayflower-L mailing list archives at: http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=MAYFLOWER You may search for any keyword in messages archived back to 1996. Also please remember to peruse the Mayflower List FAQ, or "Frequently Asked Questions" page at www.macatawa.org/~crich/mayfaq.htm . It probably needs another update, but I think everything there is fairly accurate. About 955 messages were posted in the past 12 months compared to 700 in the prior 12 months. 22% of them were posted this month! Keep the queries coming and best wishes to all Mayflower genealogy researchers in your family quests! As always, please do not respond to THIS message on the list as it is technically "off topic". Feel free to contact me directly at any time at: [email protected] Blessings to you all during this special holiday season. Craig Rich Holland, Michigan/USA Mayflower list administrator Rich list administrator -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.14/547 - Release Date: 11/22/2006

In a message dated 11/21/2006 10:09:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > Hi Joan > You may be able to crack my "brickwall" as my great grand mother was a > Euphemia McKay / MacKay and your mention of " Clan MacKay USA " gave me a > little hope as I have not been able to push back Euphemia's ancestry apart > from her approx date of birth = June 1858 her marriage to my Great Grand > father John W KEELER in Boston MA 28th April 1881 and her death 4th March > 1927 in Dorchester MA on the birth certificate of her children of which > there were seven she gave her place of birth as Boston except on one > certificate she gave Prince Edward Island, on the marriage certificate she > gave her parents names as William &Mary McKay. > Can you or anyone else help me trace Euphemia's ancestry ? > Regards > Rob Wilkinson Farnham Surrey England > Descendant of Thomas ROGERS, Stephen HOPKINS &William BREWSTER > > > Rob: Please contact me off list regarding your McKays (non Mayflower topic). I might have some suggestions considering I have McKay PEI ancestors. Bonnie MacKay House Descendant of Rogers and Hopkins [email protected]

I cannot comment at the moment on what is taught at the elementary level. I saw a book that was being used at the college level by someone I knew well. I bought it as the student was finished with it. I can tell you that it was a claptrap of political correctness and it seemed bent on emphasizing the worst in our culture. That's pretty sad when one considers how much good there is in our great land of freedom. GMF That wretched alchemist called money can turn a man's heart into a stone! -- "Grace Bliss Smith" <[email protected]> wrote: Regarding the teaching of pilgrim and other history in schools.......the

------- Original Message ------- >From : [email protected][mailto:[email protected]] Sent : 11/20/2006 11:13:05 AM To : [email protected] Cc : Subject : RE: [MFLR] my 2 cents on Mayflower Movie... It was extraordinary! I'm going to order the DVD. Somebody mentioned why English people referred to America long before the Pilgrims.... I'm a bit nieve and new to this subject, however, didn't people come over here before the Mayflower and landed, who settled in Jamestown, Virginia? I lived in Portsmouth, Virginia Beach and Norfolk Virginia before I got interested in genealogy, and the people of Virginia told me that they had claim to the first settlement in Jamestown. I'm a bit confused. Thank you for anybody willing to take the time to help me figure this history out. did the Mayflower make her first trip to Virginia years before. -D ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The Sons of the American Revolution annually sponsor several Middle and High School teachers, from across the country, at the Valley Forge Freedom Foundation for a week long in depth exposure to Revolution War History. Recently one of these teachers was the speaker at our State Managers meeting in Folsom, CA. She effervesced with her pleasure of being chosen to attend. She told us that the State approved text graciously used 3 pages to cover the revolution. How can we expect our children to understand their heritage. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of GMF Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 12:25 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MFLR] teaching history in schools I cannot comment at the moment on what is taught at the elementary level. I saw a book that was being used at the college level by someone I knew well. I bought it as the student was finished with it. I can tell you that it was a claptrap of political correctness and it seemed bent on emphasizing the worst in our culture. That's pretty sad when one considers how much good there is in our great land of freedom. GMF That wretched alchemist called money can turn a man's heart into a stone! -- "Grace Bliss Smith" <[email protected]> wrote: Regarding the teaching of pilgrim and other history in schools.......the ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

have been reading all the e-mails concerning the movie and thought I would add my thoughts. I enjoyed the movie very much. I taped it and will watch it again soon. I also read Caleb Johnson's review. I am glad he had such a nice review of the movie. I think it would have made a great mini-series. My Mayflower line is from Edward Fuller. My 6th g-gm was Hannah Bonham Stout, (2nd great g-daughter to Edward Fuller). Speaking of Indians and such... some of you might not know the story of the Stout family. My 8th great grandmother was Penelope Stout. There are many stories about her on the web. The stories do vary somewhat but the basic facts stay the same. ------------------------ One version is.... Penelope was probably born about 1622 in England. Her father is believed to have been a Puritan Baptist Separatist who was banished from his church and who fled to Holland with his family. Penelope joined her young husband and other Dutch settlers headed for New Amsterdam in 1640. Violent storms caught their ship, drove it off course and finally wrecked it off Sandy Hook. All survived, and the passengers and crew set off for New Amsterdam on foot, leaving Penelope on the beach to nurse her desperately ill husband (whose name was never recorded by Penelope and all of the large brood she would later rear.) Indians found the couple on the beach, killed the husband and left Penelope viciously hacked. The young widow lay unconscious, her skull fractured, her left arm so mangled that it would never again be normal and her abdomen slashed open. Somehow she revived and crawled into a hollow tree, where two Indians found her several days later. Penelope prayed that they might end her misery and the younger Indian was willing to oblige. The older Indian dissented, carried her over his shoulder to camp, and there nursed her back to health. She stayed with the Indians, working, learning their language and their ways. Some of her shipwrecked friends returned after a time and asked the Indians to give her up. Penelope's Indian benefactor said he would let the young woman decide for herself. Penelope decided to leave, "very much to the surprise of this good Indian," according to Frank Stocktons' version. About two years later Penelope met Richard Stout who had left Nottingham, England, because of parental disapproval of his love affair with a girl they considered socially inferior. He enlisted in the navy, served for seven years and left ship in New Amsterdam when his enlistment ended. ------------------

I am sorry, I sent this message, I thought I was sending it privately. Scott

I grew up in Michigan in the 60's and I remembered John ALDEN, Miles Standish, William Bradford and John SMITH. My brother gave my Mom a pilgrim for the fridge and I even named it Miles Standish. In a message dated 11/21/2006 9:27:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: To be fair, I don't recall ever learning the names of the Pilgrims, only that they were 'Pilgrims', came on the Mayflower, and settled in Plymouth. I do remember Squanto's name, and Myles Standish, but that's all, and I grew up in the 50's. That was about the extent of it. A lot more was made out of the first Thanksgiving with the Indians than anything else. TTYS, Dawn Green

Obviously there are too many self-styled historians who pander to sentiments that make the early settlers look like ghouls. Let's face it -- there is probably much more about the Pilgrims that we don't know than what we do know. More power to you J.B. GMF That wretched alchemist called money can turn a man's heart into a stone! -- [email protected] wrote: In the second expedition they dug up another "place like a grave," although this contained the remains of a blond European sailor (in his sailor's cassock and with European sewing equipment) and his child, besides various utensils. The Pilgrims took "sundry of the prettiest things away with us, and covered the corpse up again." As this was obviously a European's grave, the removal was not considered desecration of an Indian grave. In the third exploration, the Pilgrims followed a path that took them to a palisaded graveyard. Winslow reported that "Within it was full of graves, some bigger and some less; some were also paled about, and others had like an Indian house made over them, but not matted. Those graves were more sumptuous than those at Cornhill, yet we digged none of them up, but only viewed them and went our way. Without the palisade were graves also, but not so costly." This is the only historical evidence there is about the Pilgrims' attitudes towards Indian graves. They consciously did not go around digging up Indian graves. The Pilgrims' attitude was relatively sensitive to the likely reaction of the Indians. The Pilgrims did not rob Indian graves. The self-styled historians of Plimoth Plantation (actors who have gotten together to think about how things might have been) have in recent years published the exact opposite of the truth about this, and their view has been repeated by authors who think that some expertise can be assumed for the anonymous "historians of Plimoth Plantation." It would be quite revealing if the "historians of Plimoth Plantation" were to identify themselves and indicate exactly what their training is that makes them historical experts. Just making it up doesn't ordinarily count. When I learned that the producer of this film was intending to give a platform to this nonsense it was one reason I had for not participating further. Jeremy Bangs [email protected] wrote: >I have a question about Desperate Crossing. WHY did they rob the Indian >graves? I have thought about that and not quite clear as to what they >found? I know they found buried corn in some places but what else? Robbing >graves seems rather barbaric. I hope Richard Warren, Francis Cooke and >Stephen Hopkins didn't rob the graves. :) > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for the update on what is currently being taught. As I indicated before, the older the history, the more it gets put on the back burner, as described in by one chapter only be 6 pages on Plymouth colony. It is no longer as important as the other stuff that is being taught, or so the administrators must think. As I don't have any kids going through school, I'm sorta out of the loop. I can only get my info from my husband's grandchildren when they come for summer vacations every few years. Christie Trapp

From: <[email protected]> > Richard Warren? I must have missed that mention if there was one. No, > he > didn't die the first winter. Christie, you are correct, and there was not much written or published about Richard Warren, just our luck, but he was a respected man and all of his children (seven) lived to adulthood and they all had many offspring. Richard Warren died in 1628 a year after the division of cattle. Check our Caleb Johnson's website: http://www.mayflowerhistory.com/Passengers/RichardWarren.php According to Caleb Johnson, it was Edward Davies who finally found documentation in December of 2002 that proved that Elizabeth Walker was, indeed, married to Richard Warren. It was the 1613 will of Augustine Walker, father of Elizabeth that stated that his daughter Elizabeth Walker was married to Richard Warren, and they had three daughters by that year. Richard Warren's death was recorded by Nathaniel Morton in his 1669 book "New England's Memorial." Edward Davies, "The Marriage of Richard Warren of the Mayflower", The American Genealogist 78(April 2003):81-86. Lois Kortering Stephen Hopkins/Constance Richard Warren/Anna ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 9:05 PM Subject: Re: [MFLR] Desperate Crossing: Possible error?? > Richard Warren? I must have missed that mention if there was one. No, > he > didn't die the first winter. If he did, he wouldn't have had so many > descendants, which I'm one. In addition,if you ever go to Plimouth > Plantation, they > have him running round and his wife is there! > > Mostly the people mentioned were Bradford, Standish, Winslow, Cushman, > Carver, Brewster and a couple of others--mostly those who were "in charge" > so to > speak. I don't think Warren was all that involved in the running of > Plymouth. > I could be mistaken, but I don't recall hearing his name mentioned. I > listened for the names and could pick out mentions of all the ones my > husband is > connected to, but Warren and Eaton (my two) weren't. > > > Christie Trapp

Dear Rob: I will do a little checking for you. the clan MacKay just changed Genealogists. The other one was not doing his job. The clan Mckay/Mackay genealogist plans to collect lineages back of each submittal. But I will do some checking for you. If you could send me some more info it would be good. Where she was born, lived etc. her genealogy chart. But I have access to some genealogy data banks, which I will look up. Scott Mckay Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 18:41:04 -0000 From: "Rob" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [MFLR] Alias To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Hi Joan You may be able to crack my "brickwall" as my great grand mother was a Euphemia McKay / MacKay and your mention of " Clan MacKay USA " gave me a little hope as I have not been able to push back Euphemia's ancestry apart from her approx date of birth = June 1858 her marriage to my Great Grand father John W KEELER in Boston MA 28th April 1881 and her death 4th March 1927 in Dorchester MA on the birth certificate of her children of which there were seven she gave her place of birth as Boston except on one certificate she gave Prince Edward Island, on the marriage certificate she gave her parents names as William & Mary McKay. Can you or anyone else help me trace Euphemia's ancestry ? Regards Rob Wilkinson Farnham Surrey England Descendant of Thomas ROGERS, Stephen HOPKINS & William BREWSTER

Regarding the teaching of pilgrim and other history in schools.......the Social Studies curriculum in most districts is crowded with numerous benchmarks. For example, Social Studies content in elementary school includes history, civics/core democratic values, geography, inquiry, thematic strands, multiple perspectives, and so forth. It's much more complicated than the "straight" history and some geography most of us experienced when we went to school. You can see an overview of the standards here: http://www.socialstudies.org/standards/execsummary/ In my own school district 5th grade Social Studies focuses on explorers and the new world, the first Americans, the Columbian Exchange, the Jamestown and Plymouth settlements, the 13 colonies, the Revolutionary War, the struggle for Independence, core democratic values, and the U.S. Constitution. There are about 600 pages in the textbook. One lesson is devoted to the Plymouth Colony. It is 6 pages long. In my opinion, Social Studies curriculum has taken a back seat to other curricula such as English/Language Arts, Math, and Science. Just my two cents! Grace

What I meant by my comment about the teacher and history was that if they don't teach anything about the Mayflower, the Pilgrims and that sort of thing, they are skipping over a whole lot of history in my opinion. If the teachers don't teach specifically about the names of the Mayflower passengers, that's okay because I didn't get that in school back then either. But to only teach the kids as it relates to Thanksgiving only is disappointing. I seem to recall there was much more taught to kids in the past than kids of today. I guess because now we have so much more history to learn, the "older stuff" gets pushed into the far reaches of the attic. Instead, the kids are learning things like the holocaust of WWII as it is more relavant to the events of today's world rather than the fact that 102 plus or minus passengers came over, many died, etc. in 1620 and that's the start of the USA as we know it. My own granddaughter, whose father is African American seems to only concentrate on the time period of Martin Luther King. She could care less about the Pilgrims, though she is not only a Mayflower descendant (the same number of Pilgrim's that my husband is descended from), but she is also a descendant through her father's ancestry to the black culture. Our other granddaughter also is a descendant from Jamestown. Her interest doesn't include this historical fact as she is only interested in the here and now. Forget history! The two would rather watch Disney! They are only interested in their ancestry when they get around grandpa! Christie Trapp

In a message dated 11/20/2006 11:54:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: When I told my sons 6th grade teacher that my son was a descendant of John ALDEN and Priscilla MULLINS, he said who are they? I can't believe what the schools must be teaching kids these days -- it obviously isn't history as I learned it in the 50s! This teacher must be one of those young whipper snappers who knows nothing but things he/she knows a lot! Christie Trapp

Richard Warren? I must have missed that mention if there was one. No, he didn't die the first winter. If he did, he wouldn't have had so many descendants, which I'm one. In addition,if you ever go to Plimouth Plantation, they have him running round and his wife is there! Mostly the people mentioned were Bradford, Standish, Winslow, Cushman, Carver, Brewster and a couple of others--mostly those who were "in charge" so to speak. I don't think Warren was all that involved in the running of Plymouth. I could be mistaken, but I don't recall hearing his name mentioned. I listened for the names and could pick out mentions of all the ones my husband is connected to, but Warren and Eaton (my two) weren't. Christie Trapp

To be fair, I don't recall ever learning the names of the Pilgrims, only that they were 'Pilgrims', came on the Mayflower, and settled in Plymouth. I do remember Squanto's name, and Myles Standish, but that's all, and I grew up in the 50's. That was about the extent of it. A lot more was made out of the first Thanksgiving with the Indians than anything else. ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 8:10 PM Subject: Re: [MFLR] Thoughts: The Desperate Crossing > > In a message dated 11/20/2006 11:54:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > When I told my sons 6th grade teacher that my son was a descendant of John > ALDEN and Priscilla MULLINS, he said who are they? > > > > I can't believe what the schools must be teaching kids these days -- it > obviously isn't history as I learned it in the 50s! This teacher must be one of > those young whipper snappers who knows nothing but things he/she knows a lot! > > Christie Trapp > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 176 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com

Jeremy Thanks so much for refreshing my memory.I'd forgotten about the tools the Natives took from the Pilgrims and how the Pilgrims tried to makerestitution to the Natives for the corn they'd taken. However there was much in your reply that I was completely unaware of and I appreciate your educationg me. I'm very interested in reading the article you wrote as well as the other books you mentioned. Again many thanks for replying to my post. Noreen Maloney LaTour Burlington,Vermont

As someone who was born in El Paso, Texas and was living there when all of the big bruhaha was going on about Don Juan de Onate and his having crossed the dessert and celebrated the first Thanksgiving, they kind of forget to mention that they had their little party on the Mexican side of the river, not in what later became Texas, so I say the Pilgrims had the the first Thanksgiving. There have always been Thanksgivings by people for safe journeys and crops, but not in America. Ours was the first recorded. Joyce Moore [email protected] wrote: Dick Eastman has it listed on his web site see http://blog.eogn.com/eastmans_online_genealogy/2006/11/the_first_thank.ht ml or check with New Mexico Genealogical Society web site posting from a fellow researcher and avid genealogical writer Pauline Chavez Bent. http://www.nmgs.org/art1stThanks.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Attention : David Sylvester of Seaport,ME You stated that you're a descendant of Mayflower passenger Edward Doty through his son John and John's wife Elizabeth Cook.I was wondering if this Elizabeth Cooke was the daughter of Mayflower passenger Francis Cooke and his wife Hester Mahieu. The dates I have for the Elizabeth who was the daughter of Francis and Hester are as follows:born Dec.26,1611 in Leyden,Holland and died before May 22,1627 prob. in or near Plymouth,MA I have no other information on her. I descended from Francis and Hester through 2 of thier children,John who came on the Mayflower with his father and Hester. John married Sarah Warren,daughter of Mayflower passenger Richard Warrren. Their daughter was named Elizabeth,after her aunt Elizabeth I metioned above.She married Daniel Wilcox. Elizabeth and Daniel Wilcox's great granddaughter Elizaabeth Wilcox married Joshua Gifford. Hester Cooke,the sister of the above mentioned John,married Richard Wright.Their son Adam married Sarah Soule,grand daughter of Mayflower passenger and indentured servant George Soule.Adam & Sarah had a daughter Mary who married Jeremiah Gifford. Mary & Jeremiah were the parents of Sarah Gifford. Sarah gave birth to Joshua Gifford out of wedlock and it was this Joshua who married the above mentioned Elizabeth Wilcox. >From Joshua & Elizabeth to me the line goes as follows: Rueben Gifford I Rueben Gifford II Susan Gifford Maria Levanway,my great grandmother Luman Osborn,my maternal grandfather Patricia Osborne,my mother,who also is now deceased. And on to stepson, my 2 daughters and my 2 granddaughters. aI'm interested in any information you have on Elizabeth Cook Doty if she is indeed the Elizabeth who was the daughter of Francis & Hester Cooke as I'm sure she must be. If she is the same Elizabeth then you and I would be indirectly related/distantly related. I'm trying to keep all the info on both mty direct and indirect relations. Thanks in advance for all your help. Noreen Maloney LaTour Burlington,Vermont