James, thank you for your reply. I can see the figure for all of the Americas, although I still think that is high, but not for North America. There were never any census records for the Indians so it would be hard to tell how many there were. I am part Cherokee Indian and my husband has several Indian ancestors, mainly Choctaw. When you start really doing research on the Indians the numbers are just not there from what I have come across. When you do research you discover the early settlers settled by the oceans and the rivers so they would have water. Unfortunately the natives also settled for the same reason and they both wanted the same land. I guess this is one of the oldest stories ever told. It is something none of us had a part in and none of us can do anything about it. Where ever you live you just need to ask yourself how many people have "owned" the land you now call yours. This has been done all over the world and will continue to be done. Joyce James Crippen <[email protected]> wrote: Joyce Moore: Although I did not notice the pre-white Indian census number on the "crossing" movie, I can state that the 50 million figure has been around for a number of years. I did a late 60's paper on pre-white Indians and post-white abuse a great number of years ago and the figure was available then in most university libraries however, it is usually stated as the number for the "Americas" since more information is known about South and Central America as opposed to the North America we are so familiar with. The great culprit, as indicated in the movie, was disease. Here in Alaska 2/3 of the Native population was lost during the late 30's and 40's due primarily to tuberculosis. This movie has brought to light a new slant to Plymouth's joint-venture settlement. Let's hope history books adapt accordingly. Jim Crippen ----- Original Message ----- From: joyce moore Date: Friday, November 24, 2006 9:56 pm Subject: [MFLR] Desperate Crossing To: [email protected] > I meant to comment on one thing that was said by one of the > commentators. One of them mentioned that there were 50 million > Indians living in America when the Pilgrims came over. I sincerely > question that. We only have 300 million now after 400 years of > constant immigration and having children. I have never heard that > figure in my life. > > I also question the comment about the fact that we force the > Indians to live by our ways and not the way they really want to. Do > they want to go back to riding horses, hunting game, washing in > streams, or what did she have in mind? I love the computer where I > can find anything I want and correspond with people, cars and > planes, central heat and air, grocery stores, washers and driers, > etc. I really question some things that people say in some of these > documentaries. I wish she had said what she is willing to give up. > > Joyce Moore > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAYFLOWER- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Jeremy, thank you for the website. As a nurse myself I have always wondered how they managed to infect just the indians when everyone should have the disease, plus the fact that the virus would not live long enough to transport the blankets, etc. A few people have a natural immunity to smallpox, but the rest have to be vaccinated, and that was not available back then. It would have been suicide for everyone involved. Joyce Moore [email protected] wrote: In response to: MsTigerHawk wrote: >Don't forget about all the Native Americans who died of smallpox after having been given smallpox-infested blankets by the white soldiers. This is what they were told to do by the government. Just another incidence of genocide. > > Colleen =================== There is one case only that has given rise to this generalization - the case of Major Amherst during the French and Indian War. While Major Amherst approved the suggestion that infected blankets be used to infect Indians, there is no evidence that the attempt was carried out. There is no evidence of any other such attempt. Further, it is considered impossible to use intermediary objects such as blankets to transmit the disease, which is passed person to person. I read an article on the medical aspects of this a few years ago, written by physicians at Boston's Massachusetts General Hospital, but I've forgotten where. They explained the impossibility of such an attempt's being effective, because of the need to maintain a hospitable environment for whatever organism carries the disease. For an informative discussion of the matter (a discussion that predates that article), see: http://www.h-net.msu.edu/~west/threads/disc-smallpox.html The wide generalization of a doubtful case is a kind of rhetoric that unfortunately appears in numerous diatribes against all the colonists including the Pilgrims. The accusation has nothing to do with them. The Pilgrims attempted to get along with their immediate neighbors, and they managed to do so for more than half a century. Jeremy Bangs ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Karen, Really, the persistent use of smallpox-infested blankets as "gifts" from the whites to the Native Americans was, indeed, genocide. Consider that if during the "current unpleasantness in the Middle East" germs/chemicals, etc., were utilized? Would it not be considered genocide? It is not called "germ warfare" for nothing. It was developed as a fast and dirty way of eliminating populations without the necessity for so much combat. And yes, that is the correct definition of genocide: "One group of people puposely killing another group because of their race"...and to acquire their land. Remember that the white man believed fervently in Territorial Imperative. But remember this too, most of us are the combination of many cultures and we need to remember that there is nothing wrong in admitting a past wrongdoing by one's ancestors (after all WE did not do it!) and moving on. Linda > I'm sorry you feel that way, Karen. I stand by my statement that it was > genocide. The definition is one group of people purposely killing another group > because of their race.

I am going to have to ask everyone to drop this topic now that it's disintegrated into a discussion about genocide. This is a genealogy mailing list. There are plenty of political mailing lists you may subscribe to if you are looking to argue or pick fights. It's getting out of hand -- as it always does when politically correct topics are broached. It will take a while before some of the digest subscribers see this message, so please drop it and do not respond further. Let's get back to questions ONLY about Mayflower passengers, their ancestors and their descendants before even more subscribers drop their subscriptions. Thanks! Craig Rich Mayflower List administrator [email protected] www.macatawa.org/~crich/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/551 - Release Date: 11/25/2006

In response to: MsTigerHawk <[email protected]> wrote: >Don't forget about all the Native Americans who died of smallpox after having been given smallpox-infested blankets by the white soldiers. This is what they were told to do by the government. Just another incidence of genocide. > > Colleen =================== There is one case only that has given rise to this generalization - the case of Major Amherst during the French and Indian War. While Major Amherst approved the suggestion that infected blankets be used to infect Indians, there is no evidence that the attempt was carried out. There is no evidence of any other such attempt. Further, it is considered impossible to use intermediary objects such as blankets to transmit the disease, which is passed person to person. I read an article on the medical aspects of this a few years ago, written by physicians at Boston's Massachusetts General Hospital, but I've forgotten where. They explained the impossibility of such an attempt's being effective, because of the need to maintain a hospitable environment for whatever organism carries the disease. For an informative discussion of the matter (a discussion that predates that article), see: http://www.h-net.msu.edu/~west/threads/disc-smallpox.html The wide generalization of a doubtful case is a kind of rhetoric that unfortunately appears in numerous diatribes against all the colonists including the Pilgrims. The accusation has nothing to do with them. The Pilgrims attempted to get along with their immediate neighbors, and they managed to do so for more than half a century. Jeremy Bangs

Believe it or not -- I'm an Army Brat who lived at Dachau, WG, in 1962 where my dad was a battlation commander. Yes, the concentration camp became a US Army kaserne with a displaced persons (DP) camp after WWII. I was just 17, a high school girl, but I have seen genocide and what it means. Colleen, I am sad that you feel like this. But I think stupidity or even bigotry is not the same as genocide. Craig, if you want to stop this thread, it's fine with me. Karen -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of MsTigerHawk Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 4:01 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MFLR] Desperate Crossing Don't forget about all the Native Americans who died of smallpox after having been given smallpox-infested blankets by the white soldiers. This is what they were told to do by the government. Just another incidence of genocide. Colleen James Crippen <[email protected]> wrote: Joyce Moore: Although I did not notice the pre-white Indian census number on the "crossing" movie, I can state that the 50 million figure has been around for a number of years. I did a late 60's paper on pre-white Indians and post-white abuse a great number of years ago and the figure was available then in most university libraries however, it is usually stated as the number for the "Americas" since more information is known about South and Central America as opposed to the North America we are so familiar with. The great culprit, as indicated in the movie, was disease. Here in Alaska 2/3 of the Native population was lost during the late 30's and 40's due primarily to tuberculosis. This movie has brought to light a new slant to Plymouth's joint-venture settlement. Let's hope history books adapt accordingly. Jim Crippen ----- Original Message ----- From: joyce moore Date: Friday, November 24, 2006 9:56 pm Subject: [MFLR] Desperate Crossing To: [email protected] > I meant to comment on one thing that was said by one of the > commentators. One of them mentioned that there were 50 million > Indians living in America when the Pilgrims came over. I sincerely > question that. We only have 300 million now after 400 years of > constant immigration and having children. I have never heard that > figure in my life. > > I also question the comment about the fact that we force the > Indians to live by our ways and not the way they really want to. Do > they want to go back to riding horses, hunting game, washing in > streams, or what did she have in mind? I love the computer where I > can find anything I want and correspond with people, cars and > planes, central heat and air, grocery stores, washers and driers, > etc. I really question some things that people say in some of these > documentaries. I wish she had said what she is willing to give up. > > Joyce Moore > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAYFLOWER- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ********************************************************** Don't miss this website if you like to read. --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

That is a sad commentary on how very little most of our schools know about American History in general, and The Mayflower, in particular. Linda > When I told my sons 6th grade teacher that my son was a descendant of John > > ALDEN and Priscilla MULLINS, he said who are they?

Also, although I am a descendant of the British Monarchy (through my father's father's people) and would love to see QEII, I have a feeling this might be a bit down the road for her to be making trips. I surely hope not, but time flies... Linda (Warrick) Chesson (who never uses an Alias and agrees with Scott...why DO people do it?) >Hi, why do people get do use a alias names on this site. That's not fair to >some of the people. I belong to Clan MacKay USA. They do not allow alias. One >alias is Genferrett2, I guess genferrett one got caught. >On another note Queen Elizabeth 2 would be a bad choice to come to >Plymouth's 400th Anniversary. They came to America, to get away from their > hypocrisy. >Scott

Arthur J. Ray, professor of history at the University of British Columbia in his 1996 book `I Have Lived Here Since the World Began' says "slightly more than 500,000 people" occupied what is now Canada. This is up from estimates that were made earlier in the century (in 1970, J.M.S. Careless quoted a figure of 220,000 for Canada). But Dr Ray, as do most scholars, according to his book, rejects the estimates that there were over 1 million natives in Canada. If the current trend of the US population being ten times that of Canada can be assumed when the Mayflower arrived, 50 million would be a bit high for North America but probably not for the entire hemisphere. Mike More [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Linda Smith Sent: November 25, 2006 12:05 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MFLR] Desperate Crossing I don't doubt that figure at all. They had a lot more than 400 years to establish their population. I would think that is a conservative figure, if anything. ----- Original Message ----- From: "joyce moore" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [MFLR] Desperate Crossing > I meant to comment on one thing that was said by one of the commentators. One of them mentioned that there were 50 million Indians living in America when the Pilgrims came over. I sincerely question that. We only have 300 million now after 400 years of constant immigration and having children. I have never heard that figure in my life. > > I also question the comment about the fact that we force the Indians to live by our ways and not the way they really want to. Do they want to go back to riding horses, hunting game, washing in streams, or what did she have in mind? I love the computer where I can find anything I want and correspond with people, cars and planes, central heat and air, grocery stores, washers and driers, etc. I really question some things that people say in some of these documentaries. I wish she had said what she is willing to give up. > > Joyce Moore > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 177 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'm sorry you feel that way, Karen. I stand by my statement that it was genocide. The definition is one group of people purposely killing another group because of their race. Sure, stop the thread. I said what I have to say. Colleen Karen Sullivan <[email protected]> wrote: Believe it or not -- I'm an Army Brat who lived at Dachau, WG, in 1962 where my dad was a battlation commander. Yes, the concentration camp became a US Army kaserne with a displaced persons (DP) camp after WWII. I was just 17, a high school girl, but I have seen genocide and what it means. Colleen, I am sad that you feel like this. But I think stupidity or even bigotry is not the same as genocide. Craig, if you want to stop this thread, it's fine with me. Karen -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of MsTigerHawk Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 4:01 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MFLR] Desperate Crossing Don't forget about all the Native Americans who died of smallpox after having been given smallpox-infested blankets by the white soldiers. This is what they were told to do by the government. Just another incidence of genocide. Colleen James Crippen wrote: Joyce Moore: Although I did not notice the pre-white Indian census number on the "crossing" movie, I can state that the 50 million figure has been around for a number of years. I did a late 60's paper on pre-white Indians and post-white abuse a great number of years ago and the figure was available then in most university libraries however, it is usually stated as the number for the "Americas" since more information is known about South and Central America as opposed to the North America we are so familiar with. The great culprit, as indicated in the movie, was disease. Here in Alaska 2/3 of the Native population was lost during the late 30's and 40's due primarily to tuberculosis. This movie has brought to light a new slant to Plymouth's joint-venture settlement. Let's hope history books adapt accordingly. Jim Crippen ----- Original Message ----- From: joyce moore Date: Friday, November 24, 2006 9:56 pm Subject: [MFLR] Desperate Crossing To: [email protected] > I meant to comment on one thing that was said by one of the > commentators. One of them mentioned that there were 50 million > Indians living in America when the Pilgrims came over. I sincerely > question that. We only have 300 million now after 400 years of > constant immigration and having children. I have never heard that > figure in my life. > > I also question the comment about the fact that we force the > Indians to live by our ways and not the way they really want to. Do > they want to go back to riding horses, hunting game, washing in > streams, or what did she have in mind? I love the computer where I > can find anything I want and correspond with people, cars and > planes, central heat and air, grocery stores, washers and driers, > etc. I really question some things that people say in some of these > documentaries. I wish she had said what she is willing to give up. > > Joyce Moore > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAYFLOWER- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ********************************************************** Don't miss this website if you like to read. --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ********************************************************** Don't miss this website if you like to read. --------------------------------- Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

Desperate Crossing is on again tomorrow and again in December..................http://www.history.com/shows.do?action=detail&epis odeId=194107 Here's a teacher's guide that is also interesting: http://a614.g.akamai.net/7/614/2201/v002/aetn.download.akamai.com/2201/thc/c lassroom/pdfs/desperate_crossing_study_guide.pdf Grace

Don't forget about all the Native Americans who died of smallpox after having been given smallpox-infested blankets by the white soldiers. This is what they were told to do by the government. Just another incidence of genocide. Colleen James Crippen <[email protected]> wrote: Joyce Moore: Although I did not notice the pre-white Indian census number on the "crossing" movie, I can state that the 50 million figure has been around for a number of years. I did a late 60's paper on pre-white Indians and post-white abuse a great number of years ago and the figure was available then in most university libraries however, it is usually stated as the number for the "Americas" since more information is known about South and Central America as opposed to the North America we are so familiar with. The great culprit, as indicated in the movie, was disease. Here in Alaska 2/3 of the Native population was lost during the late 30's and 40's due primarily to tuberculosis. This movie has brought to light a new slant to Plymouth's joint-venture settlement. Let's hope history books adapt accordingly. Jim Crippen ----- Original Message ----- From: joyce moore Date: Friday, November 24, 2006 9:56 pm Subject: [MFLR] Desperate Crossing To: [email protected] > I meant to comment on one thing that was said by one of the > commentators. One of them mentioned that there were 50 million > Indians living in America when the Pilgrims came over. I sincerely > question that. We only have 300 million now after 400 years of > constant immigration and having children. I have never heard that > figure in my life. > > I also question the comment about the fact that we force the > Indians to live by our ways and not the way they really want to. Do > they want to go back to riding horses, hunting game, washing in > streams, or what did she have in mind? I love the computer where I > can find anything I want and correspond with people, cars and > planes, central heat and air, grocery stores, washers and driers, > etc. I really question some things that people say in some of these > documentaries. I wish she had said what she is willing to give up. > > Joyce Moore > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAYFLOWER- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ********************************************************** Don't miss this website if you like to read. --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

Thank you! I can watch it tomorrow after church. Blessings, Father John http://www.grandmemories.com (Grand Memories Photo Restorations) >From: "Grace Bliss Smith" <[email protected]> >Reply-To: [email protected] >To: <[email protected]> >Subject: [MFLR] Desperate Crossing schedule >Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 13:01:58 -0500 > >Desperate Crossing is on again tomorrow and again in >December..................http://www.history.com/shows.do?action=detail&epis >odeId=194107 > >Here's a teacher's guide that is also interesting: >http://a614.g.akamai.net/7/614/2201/v002/aetn.download.akamai.com/2201/thc/c >lassroom/pdfs/desperate_crossing_study_guide.pdf > > >Grace > > > > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC.  Get a free 90-day trial! http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/?href=http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail

My understanding of this particular thread: Where did the 50M figure come from? We, as genealogists, are used to the idea that citing our sources for facts, theories, and even opinions, is part of our research. I don't think anyone is trying to be argumentative (not yet, anyway <g>). We just need to know. Sorry, Craig, I know this isn't really Mayflower related, but the Desperate Crossing movie kinda raised the question, don't cha think? Your autodidactic cousin, Karen -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of MsTigerHawk Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 10:07 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MFLR] Desperate Crossing Actually, many Native Americans would love to go back to living the old ways. There's a lot of books out by them about just that subject. I don't doubt at all that there were 50 million Native Americans living here when the Pilgrims came. Do you have any idea how many were killed off by White Man? Colleen Doweny Morse Minnesota joyce moore <[email protected]> wrote: I meant to comment on one thing that was said by one of the commentators. One of them mentioned that there were 50 million Indians living in America when the Pilgrims came over. I sincerely question that. We only have 300 million now after 400 years of constant immigration and having children. I have never heard that figure in my life. I also question the comment about the fact that we force the Indians to live by our ways and not the way they really want to. Do they want to go back to riding horses, hunting game, washing in streams, or what did she have in mind? I love the computer where I can find anything I want and correspond with people, cars and planes, central heat and air, grocery stores, washers and driers, etc. I really question some things that people say in some of these documentaries. I wish she had said what she is willing to give up. Joyce Moore ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ********************************************************** Don't miss this website if you like to read. --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I don't doubt that figure at all. They had a lot more than 400 years to establish their population. I would think that is a conservative figure, if anything. ----- Original Message ----- From: "joyce moore" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [MFLR] Desperate Crossing > I meant to comment on one thing that was said by one of the commentators. One of them mentioned that there were 50 million Indians living in America when the Pilgrims came over. I sincerely question that. We only have 300 million now after 400 years of constant immigration and having children. I have never heard that figure in my life. > > I also question the comment about the fact that we force the Indians to live by our ways and not the way they really want to. Do they want to go back to riding horses, hunting game, washing in streams, or what did she have in mind? I love the computer where I can find anything I want and correspond with people, cars and planes, central heat and air, grocery stores, washers and driers, etc. I really question some things that people say in some of these documentaries. I wish she had said what she is willing to give up. > > Joyce Moore > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 177 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com

Joyce Moore: Although I did not notice the pre-white Indian census number on the "crossing" movie, I can state that the 50 million figure has been around for a number of years. I did a late 60's paper on pre-white Indians and post-white abuse a great number of years ago and the figure was available then in most university libraries however, it is usually stated as the number for the "Americas" since more information is known about South and Central America as opposed to the North America we are so familiar with. The great culprit, as indicated in the movie, was disease. Here in Alaska 2/3 of the Native population was lost during the late 30's and 40's due primarily to tuberculosis. This movie has brought to light a new slant to Plymouth's joint-venture settlement. Let's hope history books adapt accordingly. Jim Crippen ----- Original Message ----- From: joyce moore <[email protected]> Date: Friday, November 24, 2006 9:56 pm Subject: [MFLR] Desperate Crossing To: [email protected] > I meant to comment on one thing that was said by one of the > commentators. One of them mentioned that there were 50 million > Indians living in America when the Pilgrims came over. I sincerely > question that. We only have 300 million now after 400 years of > constant immigration and having children. I have never heard that > figure in my life. > > I also question the comment about the fact that we force the > Indians to live by our ways and not the way they really want to. Do > they want to go back to riding horses, hunting game, washing in > streams, or what did she have in mind? I love the computer where I > can find anything I want and correspond with people, cars and > planes, central heat and air, grocery stores, washers and driers, > etc. I really question some things that people say in some of these > documentaries. I wish she had said what she is willing to give up. > > Joyce Moore > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAYFLOWER- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

I didn't get to see this - it was on 9:00 until midnite out here and again from 1:00 am - 4:00 am. What kind of foolish programming puts a three hour presentation on so late? Even the repeating on Thanksgiving Day was at the same times as the original broadcast! I appreciate the reviews and comments here. I wish they had repeated it at a reasonable hour. And no, I don't have TIVO or other recording capabailities because there is very rarely anything I wish to record. This was an exception. Blessings, Father John http://www.grandmemories.com (Grand Memories Photo Restorations) _________________________________________________________________ Fixing up the home? Live Search can help http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=WLMTAG

Actually, many Native Americans would love to go back to living the old ways. There's a lot of books out by them about just that subject. I don't doubt at all that there were 50 million Native Americans living here when the Pilgrims came. Do you have any idea how many were killed off by White Man? Colleen Doweny Morse Minnesota joyce moore <[email protected]> wrote: I meant to comment on one thing that was said by one of the commentators. One of them mentioned that there were 50 million Indians living in America when the Pilgrims came over. I sincerely question that. We only have 300 million now after 400 years of constant immigration and having children. I have never heard that figure in my life. I also question the comment about the fact that we force the Indians to live by our ways and not the way they really want to. Do they want to go back to riding horses, hunting game, washing in streams, or what did she have in mind? I love the computer where I can find anything I want and correspond with people, cars and planes, central heat and air, grocery stores, washers and driers, etc. I really question some things that people say in some of these documentaries. I wish she had said what she is willing to give up. Joyce Moore ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ********************************************************** Don't miss this website if you like to read. --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

I meant to comment on one thing that was said by one of the commentators. One of them mentioned that there were 50 million Indians living in America when the Pilgrims came over. I sincerely question that. We only have 300 million now after 400 years of constant immigration and having children. I have never heard that figure in my life. I also question the comment about the fact that we force the Indians to live by our ways and not the way they really want to. Do they want to go back to riding horses, hunting game, washing in streams, or what did she have in mind? I love the computer where I can find anything I want and correspond with people, cars and planes, central heat and air, grocery stores, washers and driers, etc. I really question some things that people say in some of these documentaries. I wish she had said what she is willing to give up. Joyce Moore

That is a very interesting story. It would be great if our ancestors could come back and tell us about the misery they encountered in order to found this country. There was so much sorrow and heartache that they took for granted. For some reason I did not realize that only five women survived the winter. Their lives must have really been hard but they must have been strong women. I watched the show again on Thanksgiving as I just saw part of it the first time. Our electricity here went out for three hours and I was upset. However, it really made me realize what a wonderful life we have as we sat eating our drive through hamburgers by lamplight! Joyce Moore Kathie <[email protected]> wrote: have been reading all the e-mails concerning the movie and thought I would add my thoughts. I enjoyed the movie very much. I taped it and will watch it again soon. I also read Caleb Johnson's review. I am glad he had such a nice review of the movie. I think it would have made a great mini-series. My Mayflower line is from Edward Fuller. My 6th g-gm was Hannah Bonham Stout, (2nd great g-daughter to Edward Fuller). Speaking of Indians and such... some of you might not know the story of the Stout family. My 8th great grandmother was Penelope Stout. There are many stories about her on the web. The stories do vary somewhat but the basic facts stay the same. ------------------------ One version is.... Penelope was probably born about 1622 in England. Her father is believed to have been a Puritan Baptist Separatist who was banished from his church and who fled to Holland with his family. Penelope joined her young husband and other Dutch settlers headed for New Amsterdam in 1640. Violent storms caught their ship, drove it off course and finally wrecked it off Sandy Hook. All survived, and the passengers and crew set off for New Amsterdam on foot, leaving Penelope on the beach to nurse her desperately ill husband (whose name was never recorded by Penelope and all of the large brood she would later rear.) Indians found the couple on the beach, killed the husband and left Penelope viciously hacked. The young widow lay unconscious, her skull fractured, her left arm so mangled that it would never again be normal and her abdomen slashed open. Somehow she revived and crawled into a hollow tree, where two Indians found her several days later. Penelope prayed that they might end her misery and the younger Indian was willing to oblige. The older Indian dissented, carried her over his shoulder to camp, and there nursed her back to health. She stayed with the Indians, working, learning their language and their ways. Some of her shipwrecked friends returned after a time and asked the Indians to give her up. Penelope's Indian benefactor said he would let the young woman decide for herself. Penelope decided to leave, "very much to the surprise of this good Indian," according to Frank Stocktons' version. About two years later Penelope met Richard Stout who had left Nottingham, England, because of parental disapproval of his love affair with a girl they considered socially inferior. He enlisted in the navy, served for seven years and left ship in New Amsterdam when his enlistment ended. ------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message