Hi List, These are my Howland lines that I'm researching. To save space per line I'm giving only brief dates and omitting name prefixes such as Deacon, Capt., etc and places. If you also follow these lines I will be glad to provide any further details that I may have. If I have an incorrect date or if you can provide a missing date or missing name or if you have any corrections on family lines I'd like to hear from you. 1-- John Howland (1592-1672/3) Elizabeth Tilley (1607-1686/7) 2-- Desire Howland (1625-1683) John Gorham (1621-1675/6) 3-- Temperance Gorham (1646-1724/5) Edward Sturgis (1642-1678) 4-- Desire Sturgis (1665-1749) Thomas Dimmock (1664-1697) 5-- Desire Dimmock (1696-1732/3) Job Gorham (1692-1762) 6-- Temperance Gorham (1721-1815) John Fuller (1712-1759) 7-- Francis Fuller (1749/50-1844) Hannah Cobb (1753-1816) 8-- Francis Fuller (1780-1855) Sally Dinsmore (1787-1864) 9-- Sally DeWolf Fuller (1808-1894) Amos Friend (1800-1864) 10--Eliza Wolf Friend (1838-1908) Daniel Sylvester (1811-1867) 11--Dummer Michael Sylvester (1865-1958) Evelyn Lissie Cochran (1868-1917) 12--Vivian Daniel Sylvester (1893-1968) Evangeline Estelle Washburn (1895-1981) 13--Living Sylvester (1917-) Living Merry (1924-) 14--David Wayne Sylvester (1951-) Living (1955-) 15--Living Sylvester (1991-) John Howland and Elizebeth Tilley arrived on the Mayflower in 1620. Job Gorham husband of Desire Dimmock descends from John Howland and Elizebeth Tilley thus Job and Desire were 1st cousins once removed. John Fuller husband of Temperance Gorham descends from John Howland and Elizebeth Tilley thus John and Temperance were 2nd cousins once removed. John Fuller also descends from Mayflower passenger Edward Fuller. 1-- John Howland (1592-1672/3) Elizabeth Tilley (1607-1686/7) 2-- Desire Howland (1625-1683) John Gorham (1621-1675/6) 3-- John Gorham (1651/2-1716) Mary Otis (1653-1733) 4-- Job Gorham (1692-1762) Desire Dimmock (1696-1732/3) 5-- Temperance Gorham (1721-1815) John Fuller (1712-1759) 6-- Francis Fuller (1749/50-1844) Hannah Cobb (1753-1816) 7-- Francis Fuller (1780-1855) Sally Dinsmore (1787-1864) 8-- Sally DeWolf Fuller (1808-1894) Amos Friend (1800-1864) 9-- Eliza Wolf Friend (1838-1908) Daniel Sylvester (1811-1867) 10--Dummer Michael Sylvester (1865-1958) Evelyn Lissie Cochran (1868-1917) 11--Vivian Daniel Sylvester (1893-1968) Evangeline Estelle Washburn (1895-1981) 12--Living Sylvester (1917-) Living Merry (1924-) 13--David Wayne Sylvester (1951-) Living (1955-) 14--Living Sylvester (1991-) 1-- John Howland (1592-1672/3) Elizabeth Tilley (1607-1686/7) 2-- Desire Howland (1625-1683) John Gorham (1621-1675/6) 3-- John Gorham (1651/2-1716) Mary Otis (1653-1733) 4-- Thankful Gorham (1690/1=1732/3) John Fuller (1689-1732) 5-- John Fuller (1712-1759) Temperance Gorham (1721-1815) 6-- Francis Fuller (1749/50-1844) Hannah Cobb (1753-1816) 7-- Francis Fuller (1780-1855) Sally Dinsmore (1787-1864) 8-- Sally DeWolf Fuller (1808-1894) Amos Friend (1800-1864) 9-- Eliza Wolf Friend (1838-1908) Daniel Sylvester (1811-1867) 10--Dummer Michael Sylvester (1865-1958) Evelyn Lissie Cochran (1868-1917) 11--Vivian Daniel Sylvester (1893-1968) Evangeline Estelle Washburn (1895-1981) 12--Living Sylvester (1917-) Living Merry (1924-) 13--David Wayne Sylvester (1951-) Living (1955-) 14--Living Sylvester (1991-) 1-- John Howland (1592-1672/3) Elizabeth Tilley (1607-1686/7) 2-- Desire Howland (1625-1683) John Gorham (1621-1675/6) 3-- John Gorham (1651/2-1716) Mary Otis (1653-1733) 4-- Thankful Gorham (1690/1=1732/3) John Fuller (1689-1732) 5-- Hannah Fuller (____-____) Matthias Smith (1697-____) 6-- Mary Smith (1732-____) Ebenezer Cobb (1726-1757) 7-- Hannah Cobb (1753-1816) Francis Fuller (1749/50-1844) 8-- Francis Fuller (1780-1855) Sally Dinsmore (1787-1864) 9-- Sally DeWolf Fuller (1808-1894) Amos Friend (1800-1864) 10--Eliza Wolf Friend (1838-1908) Daniel Sylvester (1811-1867) 11--Dummer Michael Sylvester (1865-1958) Evelyn Lissie Cochran (1868-1917) 12--Vivian Daniel Sylvester (1893-1968) Evangeline Estelle Washburn (1895-1981) 13--Living Sylvester (1917-) Living Merry (1924-) 14--David Wayne Sylvester (1951-) Living (1955-) 15--Living Sylvester (1991-) David Sylvester 28 North Searsport Road Searsport, Maine 04974 Discuss our First Ships roots at http://www.feliixplace.com/genealogylists/firstships.html

-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >Sent: Dec 15, 2006 6:19 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: [MFLR] Surnames - Different Spellings > In PAF 4.0, which is the program I use, they have a title >line for such things as Mrs., Dr., ENS or whatever title they have. Those interested in genealogy software issues might like to know that there are over 50 Rootsweb lists for this sort of interest. There are lists for specific programs and there's at least one general list, Gensoft.

Yet another suggestion along these lines... For my MAYFLOWER passenger surnamed ancestors (anyone whose surname is actually Samson, Howland, etc.), I go with the spelling used in the Silver books. Then for those with alternate spellings of their surname (MAYFLOWER lines and others), what I used to do is separate those spellings in the individual surname fields with a slash, i.e., "Bonum/Bonham" etc. However, some of us upload our databases to Rootsweb and although I wasn't always aware of this "problem" I did become mindful of the fact that too much "garbage" in the surname field would mean that our database information doesn't come up in your average search! Thus, if you have "Jones MAYFLOWER" or "Bonum/Bonham" in your surname field, for instance, neither of those will come up as a result in a simple search for the surnames Jones, Bonum, or Bonham! With that in mind, and still wanting all heretofore seen versions of the name spelling to be indicated in my database, with all those versions "searchable," what I do now is only give the progenitor of a line wherein there are many alternate spellings the surname with all the slashes, and then use only ONE of the alternate spellings for each of his descendants (usually an alternate spelling that is found someplace along with that person, perhaps on a census record or something like that). A good example of this "system," wherein a surname has many variant spellings, is actually found amongst my husband's Eastern European ancestors. The accepted spelling of the surname today is Guranowsky; however, we've seen it spelled Guranowski, Guranofsky, Goranowsky, Guranoski, etc. Using this "system," the progenitor would thus be something like "Israel Guranowsky/Guranofsky/Goranowsky/Guranowski" in my database, but one of his children (and luckily he had 12 children so there is plenty of opportunity for the variant spellings here!) is "Abraham Guranowsky," while another is "Mary Goranowski," and so forth. Doing it that way, that line in my database still comes up as a search result for anyone researching that family, no matter what alternate spelling they use for that search (and it's easy enough to follow the line to the beginning, through all the variant spellings, just by clicking on the "parents" links, etc....). In regard to my MAYFLOWER lines, if I am not sure if a person in my database is part of one of those lineages, it's easy to tell. I use the FamilyTreeMaker software and they have a display option called "Outline Descendant Tree" -- just start with the actual passenger at the top of the outline (John Howland, etc.) and choose the option of showing direct descendants only, with me as the ending point -- voila! There's my easy answer as to whether or not a person is part of one of my MAYFLOWER lineages -- AND that person (entered with just their surname, instead of including any MAYFLOWER indicators in that field...) will still come up as a result in a search for that surname of Rootsweb's databases too! :-) Just another way of doing things... Kathy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kathy Fenton Virginia Beach, VA (Descendant of Alden/Mullins, Brewster, Doty, Edward Fuller, Hopkins, Howland/Tilley, Rogers, Samson, and Standish) http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/f/e/n/K-Fenton/index.html Recycle yourself! Tell someone you want to be an organ and tissue donor! http://save7lives.org ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 6:19 AM Subject: Re: [MFLR] Surnames - Different Spellings > Generally, when I find out I have different spellings I put the alternate > spellings as an AKA. In PAF 4.0, which is the program I use, they have a title > line for such things as Mrs., Dr., ENS or whatever title they have. Then > they have a title line for things that would follow a surname such as Jr., Sr., > M.D. II or III. In this section I put aka and the alternate spelling, > either first name or surname. > > For the Mayflower passengers, such as Allerton, Tilley, Norris, etc. I write > MAYFLOWER in the space. When I am going through my list of names and there > are say more than one Isaac, having MAYFLOWER in the title that follows shows > up in the list. If it is Mr. or Mrs. or ENS it does if I had put it in the > first one. > > Now, for the Bonum versus Bonham spelling, I didn't know at the time I > entered the Bonum surname there was another spelling variation or if I did, I > didn't recognize it as a varient of Bonham as I didn't have any spelling in my > database that was anywhere near that close. Plus the source I was possibly > using at the time use Bonum rather than Bonham. I don't recall, but it really > doesn't make much difference now as I've changed it to Bonham, which only leaves > the one Bonum surname I have left and that is for an Elizabeth. > > Christie Trapp > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Generally, when I find out I have different spellings I put the alternate spellings as an AKA. In PAF 4.0, which is the program I use, they have a title line for such things as Mrs., Dr., ENS or whatever title they have. Then they have a title line for things that would follow a surname such as Jr., Sr., M.D. II or III. In this section I put aka and the alternate spelling, either first name or surname. For the Mayflower passengers, such as Allerton, Tilley, Norris, etc. I write MAYFLOWER in the space. When I am going through my list of names and there are say more than one Isaac, having MAYFLOWER in the title that follows shows up in the list. If it is Mr. or Mrs. or ENS it does if I had put it in the first one. Now, for the Bonum versus Bonham spelling, I didn't know at the time I entered the Bonum surname there was another spelling variation or if I did, I didn't recognize it as a varient of Bonham as I didn't have any spelling in my database that was anywhere near that close. Plus the source I was possibly using at the time use Bonum rather than Bonham. I don't recall, but it really doesn't make much difference now as I've changed it to Bonham, which only leaves the one Bonum surname I have left and that is for an Elizabeth. Christie Trapp

F.Y.I.: *The following search engine can help you locate difficult-to-find genealogy books, which you may be able to borrow via InterLibrary Loan. Peace & blessings, Cathy Porter-Maynard (In Minnesota) <>< ========================================================= ' ' WorldCat is the world's largest network of library content and services. OCLC (Online Computer Library Center) ... Over 1 billion items in more than 10,000 libraries worldwide' ' : *Advanced Search [OCLC]: _http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/advancedsearch_ (http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/advancedsearch) =========================================================

On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:29:05 EST, [email protected] wrote: > The surname spelling changes were a major problem for me > in trying to manage my database. I found duplication of > entries and figured out a system that seems to work for > me. I click on "new unrelated individual" and, for > example: type "BONUM, all changed to BONHAM - data mg't". > Then, when I find someone where the name is clearly > BONUM, I enter it as Patience (Bonum) Bonham. Carol - The better genealogy programs allow you to give more than one name to each person. With that capability, you can use as the main name whatever spelling the evidence suggests was used by the person, while having also a "standard" spelling to facilitate finding everyone in the line without having to know which spelling was used for each person. You can also list other variations that the person appears to have used if you like. > One other thing I do to try to manage my data is when I > find a direct Mayflower descendant, I add (M) in the > middle of the name. For example: Carol (M) Reed. That > helps me research lines. Some genealogy software allows you to "color code" people by various criteria. This makes it easy to see specific lines, generations, etc., in the program without changing the names that appear in reports. Terry Reigel

The surname spelling changes were a major problem for me in trying to manage my database. I found duplication of entries and figured out a system that seems to work for me. I click on "new unrelated individual" and, for example: type "BONUM, all changed to BONHAM - data mg't". Then, when I find someone where the name is clearly BONUM, I enter it as Patience (Bonum) Bonham. Right or wrong, it works for me. One other thing I do to try to manage my data is when I find a direct Mayflower descendant, I add (M) in the middle of the name. For example: Carol (M) Reed. That helps me research lines. Of course, my software tells me that I'm using a nickname, but I just override it. Carol (M) Reed Kennedy <<<<<In a message dated 12/13/2006 11:14:37 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: This is one way duplications in surnames can be made - different spellings, yet the same person. I'm now going to merge the two spellings for Patience into one file, which will now leave only one other person named Bonum in my records, and leads to the next question. >>>>

Christie, You may want to take a moment to read the following article by Elizabeth Shown Mills on "Citing Your Sources." It can be found here: http://www.bcgcertification.org/skillbuilders/skbld959.html Best regards, Pam Sears Regards, [email protected] wrote: > > I had written in my query the following: "Mayflower 18:1:70 says Sarah > was baptized 1690 and daughter of John and >> Patience (Bonham) Holmes > and that is a given." Pam wrote back and said: "<This is from > "Mayflower" what? I looked in the Mayflower Descendant, Volume 18, on > page 70 and/or 170, but could find no such baptismal record. Could you > please be more specific.> > > > > To explain - I had written this message to another individual, then when > I started to question the dates, I told that individual I would copy > what I had written and send it to the Mayflower list. The person to > whom I was writing understood me when I wrote Mayflower 18, which > probably did confuse those on the list. I apologize. It is a reference > to the Silver books Volume 18 which covers Richard Warren. I suppose > that in my mind everyone on the list would have figured out I was > talking about the silver books and not Mayflower Descendant. > > > > I don't have access to the Mayflower Descendant and I think, if I had, I > would have referred to it by the initials "MD" as I believe most people > understand that to mean Mayflower Descendant. So, again, I apologize > for any confusion by my reference referred to as Mayflower 18. I hope > this clarifies what I wrote and I suppose I need to follow my own rules > for clarity too. > > > > > > Christie Trapp >

In a message dated 12/12/2006 2:06:17 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Actually, I'm having a problem with what you wrote above. I think you need to find a source for the death date (1697) you show for Patience Faunce, the first wife of John Holmes. I find nothing to support this. It was John Holmes who died in 1697, as found in [MD 16:63] "John Holmes Senior deceased on the last of July 1697" Pam: You are probably correct regarding the date of death. Sometimes I have a wee bit of trouble deciphering articles that appear in The Register, such as the one on The Faunce Family written by James Freer Faunce that appeared in Vol. 114:115-125 April 1960 in the section of the article that is listing the children, and specifically the citation for Patience which reads: Patience, m. in Plymouth, 20 Nov 1661, John Holmes, d. in 1697. I don't know why the author couldn't have put words, such as "who died" if the death is referring to John and not Priscilla. It's called "clarity". I guess one of these days I'll be able to read with some intelligence <grin> these darn journals! I worked for an attorney a few years ago and she kept saying over and over and over "clarity, clarity, clarity!" She would write her pleadings and/or letters and would hammer home her point at least three times in three separate paragraphs written three different ways to say the same thing. Her reasoning: If you read it once and missed it, and you read it again the second time and missed it, you should get it the third time, so if you miss it the third time, there must be something wrong with your brain that you can't grasp what she said. There was no excuse for missing what she said. But then, I don't think she ever read any of the Register articles! just legal case law! So, based on what you just wrote, I'm going to move the death date of 1697 from Patience to John and now things should fall into place a bit better. Thanks. Also, to Dale, thanks for the reference by Stratton. I'll re-read that section again and add it as a reference source. I read that book a couple of years ago and then went through it name by name, but perhaps at the time I didn't have John Holmes in my database nor Patience Faunce, so I may have by-passed the names at that time. "[MD 25:30-35] A series of Plymouth deeds shows that Patience Bonham was the daughter of George and Sarah Bonham, the mother of Ruhamah Willis who married Ebenezer Rogers, and that after the death of Richard Willis, she married a Holmes." Okay, I have this entry in my database. One of the problems I had in making a connection to Patience Bonham and John Holmes was the fact that in my database I came across, at a later date, the information from the Silver vol. 18 regarding Ruhamah Willis and Eleazer Rogers and it had, I believe, Patience's surname spelled as Bonum not as Bonham. This is one way duplications in surnames can be made - different spellings, yet the same person. I'm now going to merge the two spellings for Patience into one file, which will now leave only one other person named Bonum in my records, and leads to the next question. I have the other Bonum entry as Elizabeth who married Ichabod Nye. Elizabeth died after 22 Sept 1719 in Middleboro. Is she related to Patience? I have no parents for Elizabeth. Perhaps the Stratten book might clear the air. I hope so, but if someone else knows, please let me know. I had written in my query the following: "Mayflower 18:1:70 says Sarah was baptized 1690 and daughter of John and >> Patience (Bonham) Holmes and that is a given." Pam wrote back and said: "<This is from "Mayflower" what? I looked in the Mayflower Descendant, Volume 18, on page 70 and/or 170, but could find no such baptismal record. Could you please be more specific.> To explain - I had written this message to another individual, then when I started to question the dates, I told that individual I would copy what I had written and send it to the Mayflower list. The person to whom I was writing understood me when I wrote Mayflower 18, which probably did confuse those on the list. I apologize. It is a reference to the Silver books Volume 18 which covers Richard Warren. I suppose that in my mind everyone on the list would have figured out I was talking about the silver books and not Mayflower Descendant. I don't have access to the Mayflower Descendant and I think, if I had, I would have referred to it by the initials "MD" as I believe most people understand that to mean Mayflower Descendant. So, again, I apologize for any confusion by my reference referred to as Mayflower 18. I hope this clarifies what I wrote and I suppose I need to follow my own rules for clarity too. Christie Trapp

I have read that there is a Mayflower connection to the STANDLAKE surname. I've tried to research this and wonder if someone can give me a start. At what point does a Standlake connect to a Mayflower descendant? Many thanks, Carol Kennedy

Dear Christie, You wrote: > I also have a problem with the marriage date between John and Patience > Bonham. I have Patience Faunce dying 1697, which is after the marriage to > Patience Bonham. I'm suspecting the 1681 date is possibly incorrect. I suspect the > marriage should be about 1698, if she is, indeed, the second wife; because > the confusion comes about with the child Sarah who is suppose to be baptized > 1690. This is 9 years before the death of Patience Faunce. However, in > checking Torrey 1st supplemental it definitely says the marriage to Patience > Faunce was 1661 and to Patience Bonham c.1681 as her second marriage as well. > > Mayflower 18:1:70 says Sarah was baptized 1690 and daughter of John and > Patience (Bonham) Holmes and that is a given. Even though she was baptized in > 1690, this means she was born before 1690 or thereabouts. Still making her > birth during the life of Patience Faunce. > Actually, I'm having a problem with what you wrote above. I think you need to find a source for the death date (1697) you show for Patience Faunce, the first wife of John Holmes. I find nothing to support this. It was John Holmes who died in 1697, as found in [MD 16:63] "John Holmes Senior deceased on the last of July 1697" From the Great Migration Begins: JOHN HOLMES, b. say 1636; m. (1) Plymouth 20 November 1661 Patience Faunce [PCR 8:22], daughter of JOHN FAUNCE; m. (2) about 1681 Patience (Bonham) Willis, widow of Richard Willis [NGSQ 74:87-89]. You yourself cited Torrey's Supplemental, which agrees with GMB. The marriage record of John Holmes to Patience Faunce is also found in [MD 17:183]. Patience Bonham had married Richard Willis 28 Dec 1670 [MD 18:68] Plymouth Colony Vital Records [MD 25:30-35] A series of Plymouth deeds shows that Patience Bonham was the daughter of George and Sarah Bonham, the mother of Ruhamah Willis who married Ebenezer Rogers, and that after the death of Richard Willis, she married a Holmes. [See Plymouth County Deeds 3:174] Patience holmes 'quit-claimed' her right to the property in question on 22 Dec 1699, and the deed was recorded on 18 Jan 1699 O.S., 28 Jan 1700 N.S. > Mayflower 18:1:70 says Sarah was baptized 1690 and daughter of John and >> Patience (Bonham) Holmes and that is a given. > This is from "Mayflower" what? I looked in the Mayflower Descendant, Volume 18, on page 70 and/or 170, but could find no such baptismal record. Could you please be more specific. > Also, is it possible that the date of Patience Faunce's death is incorrect? > Yes. It appears that this is the case in point. Best regards, Pam Sears

In a message dated 12/12/2006 7:18:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: RE: Your post to MAYFLOWER group Here is what I have on John Eames... see attached Joe Pehoushek in Florida Joe, Thanks so much for your message. You will note that your record does not show an Anthony/Zephon as a child of Capt Anthony Ames and Margaret Pierce. Alas, I'm afraid my source was only speculating. If you have the Mayflower Silver book Volume 2, you will find my Zephon mentioned on page 183 under Benjamin Phinney. The search goes on........ Charlie B

Subject lines should constantly be changed to reflect a new "subject" just as you start a new paragraph in writing a letter when you are reflecting a new thought. That being said, most people just only hit reply and don't bother. This is a problem that plagues ALL the lists and will never be cured. Realize too that we all know this is the MAYFLOWER list because when you get your mail it says by default in the subject line when you receive one. [MFLR] -------(then whatever the sender puts in the subject line) So to repeat then Mayflower Ancestors is not only redundant but obvious. It's more productive to just put SURNAME(S) I think. I've seen some people put 1/2 a sentence and/or question in the subject line. Less is more I believe. Just my thoughts. Janean -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 6:50 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MFLR] Mayflower Ancestors -FREEMAN Can we change the FREEMAN discussion to the subject above? It helps us who are involved to make sure to open the message. Hugh ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

At 11:40 PM 12/11/2006, Christie Trapp wrote: >John Holmes "Anne" b. 1611 had at least two children. Christie - John Holmes was probably born about 1636, as he married first Patience Faunce 20-Nov-1661 [Plymouth VR 663, PCR 8:22]. He had six children by his first wife and five by his second. The standard reference for this man and his descendants is Eugene A. Stratton, "Descendants of Mr. John Holmes, Messenger of the Plymouth Court" [NGSQ, 74 [1986]:83-110, 203-223; Additions 77 [1989]:143-144]. Dale H. Cook, Member, NEHGS and MA Society of Mayflower Descendants; Plymouth Co. MA Coordinator for the USGenWeb Project http://members.cox.net/plymouthcolony/index.shtml

Microfish7: John Homes father of Nathaniel Microfish7: Is he the grandfather of OUR Nathaniel Jr? I have the line of descent as: John Holmes "Anne" b. 1611 had at least two children. I suspect he had more and the reasons is this: He had a John, the one who married Patience Faunce and Patience Bonham about 1636. Then I have Nathaniel who married Patience's sister, Mercy Faunce born in 1643. As you can see there is a 7 year gap between the two children. To me, this signals there are more children somewhere along the line, either living or deceased. At the earliest, I suspect the 1611 John could have been married about 1631, at age 20, which is my average that I give people for marriage, or later if the woman (or girl as the case may be) a man marries is much younger, then the marriage will take place when he is older than 20. However, the Great Migration only gives the 1611 John credit for potentially two children and no more. I'm sending you a descendants list from my files. It's in Rich Text format so Word will open it. In looking at the report it appears to be following first the child John and his second wife's children by Patience Bonham. I'm not showing any children for Patience Faunce, only Patience Bonham. I also have a problem with the marriage date between John and Patience Bonham. I have Patience Faunce dying 1697, which is after the marriage to Patience Bonham. I'm suspecting the 1681 date is possibly incorrect. I suspect the marriage should be about 1698, if she is, indeed, the second wife; because the confusion comes about with the child Sarah who is suppose to be baptized 1690. This is 9 years before the death of Patience Faunce. However, in checking Torrey 1st supplemental it definitely says the marriage to Patience Faunce was 1661 and to Patience Bonham c.1681 as her second marriage as well. Mayflower 18:1:70 says Sarah was baptized 1690 and daughter of John and Patience (Bonham) Holmes and that is a given. Even though she was baptized in 1690, this means she was born before 1690 or thereabouts. Still making her birth during the life of Patience Faunce. What we don't have are some serious dates for her parents and grandparents. So everything is pure speculation at this point unless and until we can find some concrete evidence for dates. Also, is it possible that the date of Patience Faunce's death is incorrect? Christie Trapp

In a message dated 12/5/2006 7:02:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Seeking information on ancestors of Thomas AMES who was born about 1548 in England. He died 25 Jun 1618 Fordington, St. George, Doreset, England. If you have information on his ancestors, etc. would you let me know and respond to [email protected] For some time I have been searching for the identity of Zephon Ames who married Elizabeth Young, a fifth generation descendant of Stephen Hopkins of the Mayflower. I recently came across an Ames genealogy at the Sturgis Library in Barnstable MA written by Walcott Ames. He traces Zephon Ames back to your Thomas Ames of Dorsetshire, claiming he married Millicent ??, and died 23 May 1614 in Fordington. Thomas and Millicents children: Richard *Anthony b. 1595, d Marshfield MA 1686,m c. 1615 Margery Pierce Alice John Anna Anthony Ames was a proprieter of Charlestown in 16344, moved to Hingham and was made freeman 9 Mar 1637. He died in Hingham. Children of Anthony and Margery: Millicent - b 1618 m. William Sprague John -b 1618 *Mark b.c 1620, m Elizabeth Andrews Persis b. 1621, m Michael Pierce Elizabeth b. 1624, m. Edward Wilder Justice, m. Mehitable Chillings worth Margery b 1630, m John Jacobs ??Abigail.b c. 1636 m Charles Stockbridge ??Anthony, m Elizabeth _____ ??Jonathan Children of Mark Ames and Elizabeth Andrews John b 6 Sep 1649 *Anthony b 1656, m Mercy Sawyer Damaris m. Kenelm Winslow (my 8th G Grandfather) Jonathan b 1656, m Hannah Ttrouant Sarah Elizabeth m Andrew Lane Mary David Margery ( confuses this Margery with Margery above, marrying John Jacobs) Children of Anthony Ames and Mercy Sawyer: Mercy b 1687, m Joseph Philips Jerusha b 1688, m. Thomas Sawyer Elizabeth b 1691 Ichabod b 1693 Marke b 1695 Anthony b 1697, m Elizabeth________ This is the Anthony he claims is Anthony/Zephon Ames, my ancestor. But he has Elizabeth dying in 1717, and Anthony marrying Grace Oldham in 1724. This conflicts with evidence of a deed cosigned by Zephon and wife Elizabeth in 1729 recorded in The Mayflower Descendant. Unfortunately here are no proofs or sources. There is some more detail if you are interested. I would certainly be grateful for anyone who can support this line of descent! Charlie Bearse

The Pilgrim Henry Samson Kindred (PHSK) has just mailed the winter edition of its newsletter "The Samson Kindred Spirit" to its members. The newsletter is published three times a year: in April, August, and December. It includes stories and information about "Mayflower" passenger Henry Samson, his assumed first cousin Abraham Sampson, and their descendants. Both were baptized, respectively, in the Bedfordshire, England, villages of Henlow (1604) and Campton (1614). The villages are approximately 3 miles apart. Those wishing further information about the Pilgrim Henry Samson Kindred are invited to visit its website www.PilgrimHenrySamsonKindred.org <http://www.pilgrimhenrysamsonkindred.org/> or to e-mail [email protected] Stacy Wood, PHSK Editor

Aw, don't be a killjoy! :-) GMF That wretched alchemist called money can turn a man's heart into a stone! -- [email protected] wrote: Can we change the FREEMAN discussion to the subject above? It helps us who are involved to make sure to open the message. Hugh ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Can we change the FREEMAN discussion to the subject above? It helps us who are involved to make sure to open the message. Hugh

Actually there are too many Johns and too much Mercy. --(Major) John is the son of Edmund(b.abt.1590), if that's "your john" . If so, you are "related". He's also my John, as is his son..Edmund/Edmond who married Sarah Mayo. Regards,Arthur,one of the many cousins. >From: MsTigerHawk <[email protected]> >Reply-To: [email protected] >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: [MFLR] Mayflower Ancestors >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 05:17:51 -0800 (PST) > >There are too many John Freemans. There were at least three on the ship >Abigail and there has been some confusion whether they were all related or >not. My John Freeman was on that ship and I had thought he was the son of >Edmund Freeman, but apparently there is doubt as to whether that's true. > > Colleen > > >[email protected] wrote: > Ok all you Mayflower detectives get this one straight. > >John Freeman (Dec 1651 - 27 June 1721) m. [1] Eastham 8 Dec 1672, Sarah >Merrick (Christened 1 Aug 1654 - 21 April 1696) He m. [2] Mercy Hedges (b. >bef 4 July 1659 - d. 27 Sep 1721). Mercy was the widow of Elkanah Watson >and their 3rd child was Mercy Watson - please remember this name.) > >John and Sarah's 3rd child - John Freeman (July 1678 - 1767) m. Eastham >1701, Mercy Watson (Oct 1683 - 25 Dec 1768). Now John, son of John has >married Mercy, daughter of Mercy. Mrs. Mercy Watson being the second wife >of John Freeman (1651) and step mother of John Freeman (1678). To make a >long store shorter John married his step-sister, oh what a tangled web we >spin for love. (This is part of one of my lines) > >I only lurk in the background but like to jump in from time to time. > >As to Jamestown and Plymouth my granddaughter is a Bass, a direct >descendant of Mr. Bass Founder of Jamestown and holder of the patent signed >by King James and also descendant of at least 16 of the adult passengers on >the Mayflower. > >Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All! > >Bob Trapp >(husband to Christie [my 10th cousin] and cousin to most of you out there) > > >Message: 2 >Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 06:22:10 -0500 >From: "Norman V. James" >Subject: Re: [MFLR] Mayflower Ancestors >To: >Message-ID: <[email protected]> >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >reply-type=original > >Arthur, >Maybe I am reading your post wrong but it seems you are saying John 3 >married both Sarah M and Mercy W. >Norm > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Arthur Small" >To: >Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 11:36 PM >Subject: Re: [MFLR] Mayflower Ancestors > > > > John (3) was born SEPT. 1651, marr.Sarah Myrick 12/18/1672 and 2nd. > > Mercy > > Watson of Plymouth. She died 9/27/1721--age 57. Son John(4) was born > > July > > 1678, so John (3) was 26 when his son was born..a reasonable age. >________________________________________________________________________ >Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security >tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, >free AOL Mail and more. > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >********************************************************** >Don't miss this website if you like to read. > >--------------------------------- >Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001