If you haven't checked the Massey DNA data base lately, it's at: [dna24.a03] http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~mandaley/MasseyDNA.html I previously wrote: <<So far only one [Group 1; Haplogroup "R1b"] of the eight groups represented have had a sample from more than one Massey man. The families of this group were first found in VA; then in NC, SC, TN, GA, AL, MO, etc. Four DNA samplers appear to be descendants of [but definitely closely related to] the three men - Hezekiah(2), Joseph(2), and Richard(2) -who are clearly identified as BROTHERS in the books by Judge Frank Massey (1979) and William W. Massey (2000.) I will provide a review in another post of the interesting results and conclusions from the DNA submitted by the four men from this group.>> Here goes! Of these four matching DNA samples, one has only 12 markers identified to date. The other three have 25 markers identified. Two of these [kits #13401 and #16720] are identical for the first 25 markers. Another kit (#7136) has a count for marker 9 one less than that of the first two kits. The experts say (1) this marker has a history of more mutations than any other marker, and (2) a difference of one in one marker out of 25 is not considered significant if the two samplers have the same last name. From conventional research, the genealogies of the two samplers that match exactly go back to Hezekiah (2) and Richard (2) Massey - placed as brothers by the two Massey authors. So it's a reasonable going in position that the common DNA of #13401 and #16720 can be considered the "base line" DNA for this branch of the family. [Interestingly, Judge Massey had a hypothetical basis for also placing sampler #7136 as a descendant of Richard (2). I will also note that my own conventional genealogy indicates that I am also from Richard(2), but since I am not a Massey man, I can't use DNA to prove or disprove my connection.] Using the combined power of (1) traditional source document genealogy with (2) the 21st century techniques of DNA testing is far superior to using either method by itself. Consider the following interesting observation: From the way DNA is passed (virtually unchanged from father to son}, all direct male descendants of a common ancestor will have the same DNA pattern. Mutations do occur but they are very rare. So we expect #13401, his father, grandfather, great grandfather, ... and 6-great grandfather Hezekiah(2) of #13401 to have identical DNA. Likewise for #16720. back to his 7-great grandfather Richard(2). So although we'll never be able to test the DNA of Hezekiah(2) and Richard (2), we can state with confidence that it was the same as that of samplers #13401 and #16720! Since the two samplers were no closer than 8th cousins once removed, yet have identical DNA, we can be even more definite that their common DNA can be used as the "base line" DNA for this branch of MASSEYs against which other Massey men believed to be of that branch can be tested. So: 1. It is realistic to say that Massey men, whose DNA is identical (or almost identical to that) of the baseline DNA defined above, are almost certainly of the Massey line represented by the three brothers. To be sure that they are actually descended from one of the brothers requires using both DNA and conventional research. 2. Even more definite is that a mismatch of a DNA sampler with that of the baseline indicates that the sampler is descended from a different Massey branch and that the need for more conventional research is indicated. I am extremely interested in the Massey DNA research both from the standpoint of what individual Massey men can learn from their test as well as the cumulative effect of learning more about the interrelations or lack thereof of US and other Massey branches. I'll be happy to help where I can in determining a connection with one of the brothers (when a test matches the the base line) or in suggesting new lines of research for those whose DNA is not compatible with the brothers' baseline. Promising prospects to be tested for having the same DNA as the established "base line" include but are not limited to the apparent male descendants of Hezekiah(2 [whose sons were John*, Richard, Hezekiah Jr. and William], Joseph(2) [sons John, Hezekiah, Joseph, William, Thomas, and James] and Richard(2) [sons William*, Hezekiah*, John, and Richard Jr] Of course, any Massey man tested is potentially a descendant of the BROTHERS, but if not, his test will help to establish a base line DNA for other Massey branches. [Those with a asterisk appear to have at least one descendant with a DNA test.] For any Massey man interested in testing, I'll repeat Eleanore's recent directions: Just click onto the internet link above. Then on the Massey DNA page, click onto the word 'form' to bring you directly to the order page. You can fill out this form on-line. I'd recommend that you choose the 25 marker test [$171.00, inclding S&H.] You can pay directly on-line or wait until your kit arrives and pay by check or credit card when you return the DNA kit. In the kit is a 'release' form, which you need to sign and return with the kit - to give Eleonore permission to share the results on our webpage. Your kit number and earliest known ancestor, but not your identity, will be displayed on the webpage. Best regards to all, Theron Smith Private Email: [email protected] (Eleonore) [email protected]