On Sun, 3 Sep 2000 16:30:18 -0400 Roger Marjoribanks <Rogmarj@compuserve.com> writes: >James, >... >"dative" simply means in origin "given" or "to do >with giving," so grammatically indicates the >aspect of one person or thing giving to another >person or thing. As I recall in grammar the other cases besides dative were accusative or genitive? I do not think cases were emphasized in English class because English lost the various ending of Anglo Saxon & when we got to German class the endings weren't lost but they expected us to have learned the cases in English class. I need an example of each case to understand "giving". This would help me remember testament dative each day as I think what the cases are when I use the cases daily in routine talking & how the dative case relates to the meaning of testaments dative. You other teachers could answer if you like. I bet others have also forgotten cases. >In Scottish law of inheritance a "testament >dative" is little more than an inventory, legally >drawn up, showing the property to be divided >between the legal heirs (and also the debts owing >by the estate) Your American colonies' wills do no more. It says something like: I John Doe this the 25 day of May 1750 do give my soul to God, my body to the earth from whence it came, and after my just debts are paid I give to my son John 100 acres called the Smith Place a the Negro man Fred, & give to my daughter Jane the 150 tract I got from Harry Jones & the red mare, and to my wife Mary I leave the home place of 100 acres & all the rest of the slaves for her lifetime and afterward ... and I appoint my son John & wife Mary as my executor & executrix. Here is a real will from the NC Colony of British America: http://members.FortuneCity.Com/jgreen/Bras/bastard.html We have an inventory & appraisement of movable property (personal property?) in the estate packet & a record of the estate sale. Repeating your words, you say, "a 'testament dative' is little more than an inventory, legally drawn up, showing the property to be divided between the legal heirs" Just shows the property to be divided & not who gets what? Our wills show how the property is to be divided between the heirs or more precisely stated it says who gets what. Our inventory & appraisement shows what is to be sold, rather than what is "to be divided between the legal heirs" (as you said). If an heir wants something not bequeathed in the will, then he has to buy it (like everyone else) at the estate sale. As I write this I find have not looked at the estate packets close enough to be as precise as I would like. I think I need to put Sam Banks' estate packet on the web so we have an 1851 example. George's VA estate papers (being earlier) would be more interesting. For me to understand your words, I guess we would need to see an example of a British or Scotch estate acket. I know papers get removed & lost from the packets. >when the legator died intestate; Why is the deceased called the legator? Dictionary says legator is a testator, but if he died intestate (without making a will) he's not a testator. Dictionary says testator is one who makes & leaves a legally valid will or testament at death. I had to stop & look up testament. Dictionary says in law it is a will. So, Last will & testament is redundant like our deeds' phrase: "grant, bargain, sell, and release" is redundant. I guess redundancy is the MO (method of operation) of lawyers. >a "testament testamentar" was one drawn up by, or >at least acknowledged by, the legator in his/her >lifetime. I think I get it. Testament dative is an inventory. It resembles a will only in its name: testament. Testament testamentar is a Testament (will) by the testator (the man making this instrument to divide his property after his death) and that is what (who) the adjective testamentar refers to. Testament Dative is dated (old & too late) & passed to others to try to do what the deceased failed to do. It is step one of devising the property, namely making an inventory. I suppose all is then sold including land and the money is divided among the heirs according to the current law. >The testament I referred to, I think, referred to >the widow of the tenant of Marchbank Farm, In America, we would not state in a will more than the county & state of residence at death, e.g. "I William Carver of Cumberland County in the Province of North Carolina". In America tenant means renter. Does tenant may mean some other kind of land tenure (land holding) in Scotland. If a renter, then rented property would not be able to be bequeathed & I find it odd they even bother to mentioned where she happened to be renting (living). >where both one of the children and also the >"cautioner" (usually a close relative, appointed >to see that the terms of the will were carried >out) were named Samuel Marjoribanks Since we have been talking of dative, I guess this is one of those postmortem inventories you all are calling a will. So the cautioner sounds like a guardian which also in America used to be a close relative. So this testament dative is what the court-appointed administrators wrote up (no they are merely following probate law for intestate administrations). In the packet I have never seen that the administrators wrote up a plan like a will for administering or dividing the estate. I guess under the law it could not deviate & so was pointless to write up. Boy! it would be real simple in the time of primogeniture. Just give what is left to the eldest son when you get through raising his siblings. The Guardians (cautioners) submit their bills to the administrators. The administrators are 2 heirs or relatives who were 1st to ask the Judge of probate (Ordinary) of the county for "Letters of Administration" empowering them to take inventory & appraisement & hold a sale & pay debts & keep an account until the estate is closed (last heir is an adult). >and I suggested that the dates fitted with the >possibility that one of them, probably the son, >could have been your original ancestor Samuel - >but this is no more than an educated guess. Can you type up this testament dative and email it to me for the web? I'd like to see the wording of one of these anyway. Can we get a photocopy some day to put on the web? Are there other papers in the estate packet? You all do have estate packets? If not you surely record each record type in a separate book? We did both. There is no rush. I am working on a reunion for the next few days, then I have several other things I have not done, like putting the latest journal & an earlier journal on the web & a dog on the web & probably more that I've forgotten. >I don't know nearly enough about Scots law to >distinguish accurately between different types of >tenure, I'm afraid. ok >Roger -- James W. Green III/285 Agnew Rd/Winnsboro SC 29180 CSA home: 803-635-9236 http://members.FortuneCity.Com/jgreen working on: http://freepages.genealogy.RootsWeb.Com/~jwg3 ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.