Hello everyone, Can anyone help me with the following: I have two ancestors (brothers) who were both presumed drowned when the ship “Ellen Jones” supposedly sunk on 5 January 1858. They were sons of John James, Customs Officer in Porthdinllaen. a.. Samuel John James, born 1821, Four Mile Bridge, Anglesey – Master Mariner No. 41828 – Capacity M51 b.. William James, born 1811 Four Mile Bridge, Anglesey – Master Mariner No. 73386 - Capacity M52 Details from Mariners Web Site: PN:73338 C/19997/Ellen James/1857. Ship lost about 5 January 1858, not heard of since sailing, and supposed lost with all hands, presumed drowned. My questions are: 1.. Where did the ship sink? 2.. How many lives were lost? 3.. What does ‘Capacity M52’ and ‘M51’ mean? 4.. Is there a photo of the ‘Ellen James’ that survives? 5.. Any other relevant details Many thanks for whatever information is forthcoming. Eunice Bold-Edwards South Australia

Hello Eunice, I was thrown initially by your heading of "Ellen Jones".  On the assumption that it is the "Ellen James" of Caernarfon that you are after, she was indeed Official Number 19997, and according to Lloyd's Register for 1858/59 was built in France in 1847, a brig of 131 tons, of which "S. James" was evidently the captain. Her reported movements are few, and what name she was known under previously is not known.  She reportedly sailed on or about September 17th 1857 from Porthdinllaen, and left Liverpool for Belize on the 5th November.  She was then reported at Belize, and that she had sailed for "Queenstown" on the 5th January 1858.  That is the last report of a sighting. The 1858/59 edition of Lloyd's Register is the only one in which she appears. She was still being listed in the Mercantile Navy List for 1861, but is gone by 1864. Regards, Peter Klein ________________________________ From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, 28 July 2013, 0:50 Subject: Re: [MAR] Sinking of 'Ellen Jones' 1858 Hello everyone, Can anyone help me with the following: I have two ancestors (brothers) who were both presumed drowned when the ship “Ellen Jones” supposedly sunk on 5 January 1858. They were sons of John James, Customs Officer in Porthdinllaen.   a.. Samuel John James, born 1821, Four Mile Bridge, Anglesey – Master Mariner No. 41828 – Capacity M51   b.. William James, born 1811 Four Mile Bridge, Anglesey  – Master Mariner No. 73386 - Capacity M52 Details from Mariners Web Site: PN:73338  C/19997/Ellen James/1857. Ship lost about 5 January 1858, not heard of since sailing, and supposed lost with all hands, presumed drowned. My questions are:   1.. Where did the ship sink?   2.. How many lives were lost?   3.. What does ‘Capacity M52’ and ‘M51’  mean?   4.. Is there a photo of the ‘Ellen James’ that survives?   5.. Any other relevant details Many thanks for whatever information is forthcoming. Eunice Bold-Edwards South Australia ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Peter, Thank you very much for your quick response. The ship was listed firstly as the "Ellen Jones", and again as the "Ellen James" on the Mariner's website. I was not sure which one was correct. Thank you for correcting that. The 5th of January being the last sighting, it would appear that she sunk somewhere near Belize. Whereabouts is Queenstown? Thank you for the additional information, and that Samuel James would be the Captain. Both brothers held Captain's certificates. A third brother who also held a captain's certificate, died on board a ship named 'Margaret Pugh' on 16 December 1864 at Karachi, East Indies. It does not say that the ship sunk. Is there any way that you could check whether that ship did sink or whether Henry Thomas James died of other causes on board. Details of the 'Margaret Pugh' C/44241/Margaret Pugh/1864. Certificate No. 10411 Capacity = 1m54 OC59 The Margaret Pugh 1862 Died at Kurrachee on 16 December 1864. [Henry Thomas James, late of Vron Oleu, Holyhead parish, AGY, Master mariner, bachelor, died 16 Dec 1864 at Kurrachee. Admon 30 May 1865 to Elizabeth James, widow and mother and only next of kin, (NPC)]. The three masted barque "Margaret Pugh" (692 tons register) was the largest vessel ever built at Pwllheli, in 1862. She was registered at Caernarfon (No. 36 November 17, 1862) Many thanks for assisting me, I really appreciate it. Eunice Bold-Edwards -----Original Message----- From: Peter Klein Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 7:15 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MAR] Sinking of 'Ellen Jones' 1858 Hello Eunice, I was thrown initially by your heading of "Ellen Jones". On the assumption that it is the "Ellen James" of Caernarfon that you are after, she was indeed Official Number 19997, and according to Lloyd's Register for 1858/59 was built in France in 1847, a brig of 131 tons, of which "S. James" was evidently the captain. Her reported movements are few, and what name she was known under previously is not known. She reportedly sailed on or about September 17th 1857 from Porthdinllaen, and left Liverpool for Belize on the 5th November. She was then reported at Belize, and that she had sailed for "Queenstown" on the 5th January 1858. That is the last report of a sighting. The 1858/59 edition of Lloyd's Register is the only one in which she appears. She was still being listed in the Mercantile Navy List for 1861, but is gone by 1864. Regards, Peter Klein ________________________________ From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, 28 July 2013, 0:50 Subject: Re: [MAR] Sinking of 'Ellen Jones' 1858 Hello everyone, Can anyone help me with the following: I have two ancestors (brothers) who were both presumed drowned when the ship “Ellen Jones” supposedly sunk on 5 January 1858. They were sons of John James, Customs Officer in Porthdinllaen. a.. Samuel John James, born 1821, Four Mile Bridge, Anglesey – Master Mariner No. 41828 – Capacity M51 b.. William James, born 1811 Four Mile Bridge, Anglesey – Master Mariner No. 73386 - Capacity M52 Details from Mariners Web Site: PN:73338 C/19997/Ellen James/1857. Ship lost about 5 January 1858, not heard of since sailing, and supposed lost with all hands, presumed drowned. My questions are: 1.. Where did the ship sink? 2.. How many lives were lost? 3.. What does ‘Capacity M52’ and ‘M51’ mean? 4.. Is there a photo of the ‘Ellen James’ that survives? 5.. Any other relevant details Many thanks for whatever information is forthcoming. Eunice Bold-Edwards South Australia ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Eunice, Yes, I was wondering which "Queenstown" might have been intended, but Ireland was the best bet rather than New Zealand.  Thanks Mick! If Henry James actually died at Karachi (what they then often printed as "Kurrachee") then he may well have been buried there.  The Margaret Pugh had an eventful few months around this time.  She had weathered a hurricane in March 1864, out from San Francisco bound for Liverpool, shipping a heavy sea that stoved in skylights and filled her cabin with water, split her rudder, and did much other damage.  On the way home she "passed spars and pieces of timber daily" from other vessels.  She sailed for Karachi out from Liverpool on 21 June 1864, but had to put back almost immediately when her carpenter broke his arm.  She was encountered at sea on the 20th August 1864, bound for Karachi; and was finally only reported in the papers as at Karachi on the 6th January 1865.  A cable report received by Lloyd's in early May then reported that she had gone aground on the rocks at Tralee on May 1st loaded with coal, and that a portion of the cargo was being discharged.  She appears to have survived this, and was one of the first Liverpool vessels to resume trade with southern US ports after the ending of the Civil War, sailing to Mobile in September 1865. Whatever, Henry James appears therefore to have died at Karachi rather than at sea, and it might be worthwhile searching for a burial record locally. Kind regards, PK ________________________________ From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: Peter Klein <[email protected]>; [email protected] Sent: Sunday, 28 July 2013, 12:30 Subject: Re: [MAR] Sinking of 'Ellen Jones/James' 1858 Hello Peter, Thank you very much for your quick response.  The ship was listed firstly as the "Ellen Jones",  and again as the "Ellen James" on the Mariner's website.  I was not sure which one was correct.  Thank you for correcting that. The 5th of January being the last sighting, it would appear that she sunk somewhere near Belize.  Whereabouts is Queenstown? Thank you for the additional information, and that Samuel James would be the Captain.  Both brothers held Captain's certificates.  A third brother who also held a captain's certificate, died on board a ship named 'Margaret Pugh' on 16 December 1864 at Karachi, East Indies.  It does not say that the ship sunk.  Is there any way that you could check whether that ship did sink or whether Henry Thomas James died of other causes on board. Details of the 'Margaret Pugh'    C/44241/Margaret Pugh/1864.  Certificate No. 10411 Capacity = 1m54 OC59 The Margaret Pugh 1862 Died at Kurrachee on 16 December 1864. [Henry Thomas James, late of Vron Oleu, Holyhead parish, AGY, Master mariner, bachelor, died 16 Dec 1864 at Kurrachee. Admon 30 May 1865 to Elizabeth James, widow and mother and only next of kin, (NPC)]. The three masted barque "Margaret Pugh" (692 tons register) was the largest vessel ever built at Pwllheli, in 1862. She was registered at Caernarfon (No. 36 November 17, 1862) Many thanks for assisting me, I really appreciate it. Eunice Bold-Edwards -----Original Message----- From: Peter Klein Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 7:15 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MAR] Sinking of 'Ellen Jones' 1858 Hello Eunice, I was thrown initially by your heading of "Ellen Jones".  On the assumption that it is the "Ellen James" of Caernarfon that you are after, she was indeed Official Number 19997, and according to Lloyd's Register for 1858/59 was built in France in 1847, a brig of 131 tons, of which "S. James" was evidently the captain. Her reported movements are few, and what name she was known under previously is not known.  She reportedly sailed on or about September 17th 1857 from Porthdinllaen, and left Liverpool for Belize on the 5th November.  She was then reported at Belize, and that she had sailed for "Queenstown" on the 5th January 1858.  That is the last report of a sighting. The 1858/59 edition of Lloyd's Register is the only one in which she appears. She was still being listed in the Mercantile Navy List for 1861, but is gone by 1864. Regards, Peter Klein ________________________________ From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, 28 July 2013, 0:50 Subject: Re: [MAR] Sinking of 'Ellen Jones' 1858 Hello everyone, Can anyone help me with the following: I have two ancestors (brothers) who were both presumed drowned when the ship “Ellen Jones” supposedly sunk on 5 January 1858. They were sons of John James, Customs Officer in Porthdinllaen. a.. Samuel John James, born 1821, Four Mile Bridge, Anglesey – Master Mariner No. 41828 – Capacity M51 b.. William James, born 1811 Four Mile Bridge, Anglesey  – Master Mariner No. 73386 - Capacity M52 Details from Mariners Web Site: PN:73338  C/19997/Ellen James/1857. Ship lost about 5 January 1858, not heard of since sailing, and supposed lost with all hands, presumed drowned. My questions are: 1.. Where did the ship sink? 2.. How many lives were lost? 3.. What does ‘Capacity M52’ and ‘M51’  mean? 4.. Is there a photo of the ‘Ellen James’ that survives? 5.. Any other relevant details Many thanks for whatever information is forthcoming. Eunice Bold-Edwards South Australia ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello everyone, Can anybody advise me where I could find a picture of the three masted barque "Margaret Pugh" (692 tons register) which was the largest vessel ever built at Pwllheli, in 1862. The ‘Margaret Pugh’ was registered at Caernarfon (No. 36 November 17, 1862). Her maiden voyage from Liverpool to San Francisco and back to Liverpool, began on January 23, 1863 and ended on April 18, 1864. The engagement was from Liverpool to San Francisco, thence (if required) to any ports and places in the Pacific, Atlantic and Indian Oceans and China and Eastern Seas, thence to a port for Orders and to the Continent of Europe if required, and back to a port of final discharge in the United Kingdom, the term not to exceed three years'. The “Margaret Pugh” was one of the first Liverpool vessels to resume trade with southern US ports after the ending of the Civil War, sailing to Mobile in September 1865. She was sold to French owners (Bourdeaux) in June 1878, and renamed Oceanie, she was destroyed by fire in 1892. With many thanks for any assistance that may be forthcoming. Eunice Bold-Edwards South Australia [email protected]

Hello again Eunice, Contemporary pictures of the Margaret Pugh are likely to be difficult to find.  I have tried various websites, such as http://www.photoship.co.uk/Browse%20Ship%20Galleries/, which is always worth trying, but with no result.  Dr. A.S.Davidson's book "Marine Art & Liverpool" (Waine, 1986) has nothing, nor Roger Finch's "The Pierhead Painters" (Hutchinson, 1983), nor Art and the Seafarer (Faber, 1968). You could try a direct enquiry to the National Waterfront Museum at Swansea:   http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/swansea/, and they might have something in their collection of photographs or paintings.  A better chance might have been to find a picture locally to Pwllheli, although had there been something it's almost certain that the Pwllheli Shipbuilding website at http://www.rhiw.com/y_mor/hanes_llongau_llyn/pwllheli/pwllheli_shipbuilding..htm would have illustrated it.  Have you tried contacting them ([email protected])? Someone out there may have something, either a photograph or pierhead painting, but establishing contact will be difficult and you may have to be very patient.  Sadly this applies to all early shipping images, and the widely scattered owners/collectors jealously guard copyright, but it would be wonderful if there was some central registry of shipping pictures.  But that's a pipe dream!   Best regards, PK ________________________________ From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, 4 August 2013, 2:29 Subject: Re: [MAR] The "Margaret Pugh" Hello everyone, Can anybody advise me where I could find a picture of the three masted barque "Margaret Pugh" (692 tons register) which was the largest vessel ever built at Pwllheli, in 1862.  The ‘Margaret Pugh’ was registered at Caernarfon (No. 36 November 17, 1862). Her maiden voyage from Liverpool to San Francisco and back to Liverpool, began on January 23, 1863 and ended on April 18, 1864. The engagement was from Liverpool to San Francisco, thence (if required) to any ports and places in the Pacific, Atlantic and Indian Oceans and China and Eastern Seas, thence to a port for Orders and to the Continent of Europe if required, and back to a port of final discharge in the United Kingdom, the term not to exceed three years'. The “Margaret Pugh” was one of the first Liverpool vessels to resume trade with southern US ports after the ending of the Civil War, sailing to Mobile in September 1865. She was sold to French owners (Bourdeaux) in June 1878, and renamed Oceanie, she was destroyed by fire in 1892. With many thanks for any assistance that may be forthcoming. Eunice Bold-Edwards South Australia [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Barque Margaret Pugh, number 44241, was listed in the MNL up to 1882. He possibly died from a cause other then Shipwreck, local papers may have something . Mick ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 12:50 AM Subject: Re: [MAR] Sinking of 'Ellen Jones' 1858