Thanks very much! He drowned off Rosherville, Gravesend. In fact, I may have found the place he spent his fateful last evening. OLD SUN INN Pub of Northfleet | | | | | | | | | | | OLD SUN INN Pub of NorthfleetHistorical archives of pubs in Northfleet, Kent, England. | | | | View on www.dover-kent.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | | https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Old+Sun,+Crete+Hall+Rd,+Northfleet,+Gravesend,+Kent+DA11+9AA/@51.447097,0.3531645,1685m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x47d8b6134df4a289:0xf20b06737e4529d3 But probably not. I'll be honest, I still don't understand what athwart a tier of steamers means. Could you find an image of a tier of moored vessels like you describe so I can picture it better? Was the rowing boat trying to go inbetween the moored steamers and the tide swept it into them and it capsized? Tell me if the rest of the story is wrong anyway, as far as we can guess: they would have set off from Goole in Goole No. 6, towing a barge full of coal via the East Coast to the Thames; they'd then have have moored up in a tier of steamers in a place regularly used for that purpose; then rowed in the ship's rowing boat to a pub on the shore and back again, where the rowing boat capsized before it could reach Goole No.6 and William drowned. Although I don't know at which point the coal was unloaded. Also, just to flesh the story out a bit more: can you approximate how large the crew would have been? How far out would they have been moored so how far would they have had to row? Would there have been many seamen still working in their 60s then? Obviously I know absolutely nothing about boats or sailing so sorry for any daft questions. But I may as well ask as I'm here. When I first read the document I was surprised an experienced seaman could drown in such a mundane way (from ship to shore), but as you explain it was dangerous work. On Tuesday, 3 March 2015, 11:11, Andy Adams via <mariners@rootsweb.com> wrote: Jean I watched to see if anyone else was going to reply, nothing so far so I offer my explanation/description. On the tidal Thames from Denton, just below Gravesend to just below Tower Bridge there were 'tiers' where vessels were moored to await orders to proceed to a discharging berth (most commonly in the NE coal trade), or where barges would wait whilst waiting the next employment. These 'tiers' were formed by laying mooring bouys such that a vessel could be tied up to two bouys, fore and aft, so that they could not swing out into the river. Gaps were left between tiers so that vessels and craft could pass through to reach riverside berths. It seems likely that a decision was made to row ashore in the ships boat to enjoy a night in a hostelry. On returning great care had to taken, the tide runs very hard at the tier locations and there is very real danger, especially in the dark, of being swept onto the mooring resulting in the boat being upset and the occupants deposited in the water. On balance this seems the most likely explanation as this was not an uncommon occurrence on the Thames. I hope this was useful. Best wishes Andrew Adams ------------------------------- Supplementary to the detailed and interesting response from Andy Adams, I was puzzled as to how she thought this incident involved a tug based in Goole - the GOOLE NO. 6. George Robinson, compiler of the gooleships website says: she was one of the larger ones and may have been down there, think I read that Goole & Hull ST had some barges that were used for coal shipments under tow so that could have been why she was on the Thames. See NORA, EDITH, ELSIE (barges included in gooleships), all too big to be used on the Humber I think. This seems to tie in with the explanation detailed by Andy. Ron Mapplebeck (UK)
Links don't seem to have shown up as links this time, don't know why. http://www.dover-kent.com/2014-project-a/Old-Sun-Inn-Northfleet.html On Tuesday, 24 March 2015, 19:38, kate smith via <mariners@rootsweb.com> wrote: Thanks very much! He drowned off Rosherville, Gravesend. In fact, I may have found the place he spent his fateful last evening. OLD SUN INN Pub of Northfleet | | | | | | | | | | | OLD SUN INN Pub of NorthfleetHistorical archives of pubs in Northfleet, Kent, England. | | | | View on www.dover-kent.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | | https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Old+Sun,+Crete+Hall+Rd,+Northfleet,+Gravesend,+Kent+DA11+9AA/@51.447097,0.3531645,1685m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x47d8b6134df4a289:0xf20b06737e4529d3 But probably not. I'll be honest, I still don't understand what athwart a tier of steamers means. Could you find an image of a tier of moored vessels like you describe so I can picture it better? Was the rowing boat trying to go inbetween the moored steamers and the tide swept it into them and it capsized? Tell me if the rest of the story is wrong anyway, as far as we can guess: they would have set off from Goole in Goole No. 6, towing a barge full of coal via the East Coast to the Thames; they'd then have have moored up in a tier of steamers in a place regularly used for that purpose; then rowed in the ship's rowing boat to a pub on the shore and back again, where the rowing boat capsized before it could reach Goole No.6 and William drowned. Although I don't know at which point the coal was unloaded. Also, just to flesh the story out a bit more: can you approximate how large the crew would have been? How far out would they have been moored so how far would they have had to row? Would there have been many seamen still working in their 60s then? Obviously I know absolutely nothing about boats or sailing so sorry for any daft questions. But I may as well ask as I'm here. When I first read the document I was surprised an experienced seaman could drown in such a mundane way (from ship to shore), but as you explain it was dangerous work. On Tuesday, 3 March 2015, 11:11, Andy Adams via <mariners@rootsweb.com> wrote: Jean I watched to see if anyone else was going to reply, nothing so far so I offer my explanation/description. On the tidal Thames from Denton, just below Gravesend to just below Tower Bridge there were 'tiers' where vessels were moored to await orders to proceed to a discharging berth (most commonly in the NE coal trade), or where barges would wait whilst waiting the next employment. These 'tiers' were formed by laying mooring bouys such that a vessel could be tied up to two bouys, fore and aft, so that they could not swing out into the river. Gaps were left between tiers so that vessels and craft could pass through to reach riverside berths. It seems likely that a decision was made to row ashore in the ships boat to enjoy a night in a hostelry. On returning great care had to taken, the tide runs very hard at the tier locations and there is very real danger, especially in the dark, of being swept onto the mooring resulting in the boat being upset and the occupants deposited in the water. On balance this seems the most likely explanation as this was not an uncommon occurrence on the Thames. I hope this was useful. Best wishes Andrew Adams ------------------------------- Supplementary to the detailed and interesting response from Andy Adams, I was puzzled as to how she thought this incident involved a tug based in Goole - the GOOLE NO. 6. George Robinson, compiler of the gooleships website says: she was one of the larger ones and may have been down there, think I read that Goole & Hull ST had some barges that were used for coal shipments under tow so that could have been why she was on the Thames. See NORA, EDITH, ELSIE (barges included in gooleships), all too big to be used on the Humber I think. This seems to tie in with the explanation detailed by Andy. Ron Mapplebeck (UK) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Katie, I've picked up your further comments on this matter and those from other members. I'm not an expert on these historic aspects but I've found a photo that might help your understanding at: http://www.magnoliabox.com/art/549616/steam-tug-moving-between-barges-on-the-thames-london Click on the thumbnail for a larger image. You will see there barges haphazardly moored in tiers or rows, with a tug also visible. From the description provided by Andy I envisage maybe three or four rows/tiers of barges moored just off the river bank. There would possibly be several barges, maybe some with attendant tugs alongside, in each row. If your chap set off rowing from nearby then the distance to cover would not be great. If setting off from the pub, maybe they then had to row some unknown distance along the river first? As it appears the barges may not have been in "tidy" rows you can probably imagine the sort of difficulties that might be encountered in the dark? You actually stated: getting athwart a tier of steamers. That might suggest your chap encountered a number of small ships (coasters) also tied up in rows, before he got anywhere near back to his own tug. Or the steamers might just mean tugs as well? Getting athwart does suggest that for some reason they veered off their straight(ish?) route and the tide (possibly?) turned them around about 90 degrees so they were caught/stuck between two steamers/barges? You ask how many crew on the tug. Again, I'm no expert. Today, for a tug the size of GOOLE NO. 6 there might be a crew of only three or four, maybe doubled up to provide relief cover for a longer tow such as from the Humber to the Thames. A century ago, in more labour intensive days, I still can't think she would have a regular crew of more than six strong. Maybe master, mate, engineer, fireman/greaser, deckhand, cook - hopefully someone else on the List can clarify this. The master and mate would share watch and watch about so the navigational side would be covered, but whether extra hands would be on board for a longer voyage I simply don't know. As an example of crew strength see: http://www.swanseadocks.co.uk/Britannia%20Tugs.html Halfway down the page there is a five-strong complement for one tug. Lower down, dating from 1964, is a list of the crew of another tug apparently 7-strong. So, a lot of conjecture on my part, but hopefully this is of some help. Ron Mapplebeck (UK) ***** On 24/03/2015 19:50, kate smith via wrote: > Links don't seem to have shown up as links this time, don't know why. > http://www.dover-kent.com/2014-project-a/Old-Sun-Inn-Northfleet.html > > > > > On Tuesday, 24 March 2015, 19:38, kate smith via <mariners@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > Thanks very much! He drowned off Rosherville, Gravesend. In fact, I may have found the place he spent his fateful last evening. > > OLD SUN INN Pub of Northfleet > | | > | | | | | | | | > | OLD SUN INN Pub of NorthfleetHistorical archives of pubs in Northfleet, Kent, England. | > | | > | View on www.dover-kent.com | Preview by Yahoo | > | | > | | > > > > https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Old+Sun,+Crete+Hall+Rd,+Northfleet,+Gravesend,+Kent+DA11+9AA/@51.447097,0.3531645,1685m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x47d8b6134df4a289:0xf20b06737e4529d3 > > But probably not. > > I'll be honest, I still don't understand what athwart a tier of steamers means. Could you find an image of a tier of moored vessels like you describe so I can picture it better? Was the rowing boat trying to go inbetween the moored steamers and the tide swept it into them and it capsized? > Tell me if the rest of the story is wrong anyway, as far as we can guess: they would have set off from Goole in Goole No. 6, towing a barge full of coal via the East Coast to the Thames; they'd then have have moored up in a tier of steamers in a place regularly used for that purpose; then rowed in the ship's rowing boat to a pub on the shore and back again, where the rowing boat capsized before it could reach Goole No.6 and William drowned. > Although I don't know at which point the coal was unloaded. > > Also, just to flesh the story out a bit more: can you approximate how large the crew would have been? How far out would they have been moored so how far would they have had to row? Would there have been many seamen still working in their 60s then? > > Obviously I know absolutely nothing about boats or sailing so sorry for any daft questions. But I may as well ask as I'm here. When I first read the document I was surprised an experienced seaman could drown in such a mundane way (from ship to shore), but as you explain it was dangerous work. > > > > > > > On Tuesday, 3 March 2015, 11:11, Andy Adams via <mariners@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > Jean > > I watched to see if anyone else was going to reply, nothing so far so I offer my explanation/description. > > On the tidal Thames from Denton, just below Gravesend to just below Tower Bridge there were 'tiers' where vessels were moored to await orders to proceed to a discharging berth (most commonly in the NE coal trade), or where barges would wait whilst waiting the next employment. > > These 'tiers' were formed by laying mooring bouys such that a vessel could be tied up to two bouys, fore and aft, so that they could not swing out into the river. Gaps were left between tiers so that vessels and craft could pass through to reach riverside berths. > > It seems likely that a decision was made to row ashore in the ships boat to enjoy a night in a hostelry. On returning great care had to taken, the tide runs very hard at the tier locations and there is very real danger, especially in the dark, of being swept onto the mooring resulting in the boat being upset and the occupants deposited in the water. > > On balance this seems the most likely explanation as this was not an uncommon occurrence on the Thames. I hope this was useful. > > Best wishes > > Andrew Adams > > ------------------------------- > > Supplementary to the detailed and interesting response from Andy Adams, I was puzzled as to how she thought this incident involved a tug based in Goole - the GOOLE NO. 6. George Robinson, compiler of the gooleships website says: she was one of the larger ones and may have been down there, think I read that Goole & Hull ST had some barges that were used for coal shipments under tow so that could have been why she was on the Thames. See NORA, EDITH, ELSIE (barges included in gooleships), all too big to be used on the Humber I think. > This seems to tie in with the explanation detailed by Andy. > > Ron Mapplebeck (UK) > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message