Thank you Paul, very informative! I suspect in John Nutman Sr's case, his service was prior to 1853. Kathleen -----Original Message----- From: Paul Benyon <pbenyon@pbenyon.plus.com> To: mktgmaven2001 <mktgmaven2001@aol.com>; mariners <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wed, Oct 14, 2015 2:15 am Subject: Re: [MAR] John Nutman Sr. Mariner Hi Kathleen It wasn't unusual in those days, especially prior to 1853 for men to serve in both the Royal Navy (R.N.) and the Merchant Service. Some seamen continued to switch between both services after 1853, especially during the Crimea War (1853-1856) and during the Indian Mutiny and Second China War (circa 1858-1861), when the R.N. expanded to meet the increased demand for its services, and there was, therefore, an increased demand for seamen. If he served in the R.N. prior to 1853, although there were some exceptions, men usually signed on for the period that a ship was in commission, which usually depended where the vessel was serving i.e. ships which were going to operate in the Far East and East Indies etc. usually commissioned for about 4 years, whereas ships serving in UK waters might only be in commission for a year or so. Eithere way, when an R.N. ship paid off most men (excepting experienced gunnery ratings if they could be persuaded otherwise) were discharged to shore at the end of that commission. If he served in the Royal Navy after 1853, when the Admiralty introduced long term engagements of about 10 years there were 2 forms of service: (i) as above, when they signed on just for the period that a ship was in commission and were discharged to shore when it paid off or (ii) he could sign on for one of the new 10 year engagements, and if he wanted to curtail this engagement he could buy his discharge from the service, or alternatively, less legally, but as many did, desert from the RN, and never go back again. Men leaving the Service legally were issued with a service record, known as a "parchment," and whilst serving the service was supposed to maintain a copy of this document, taking information from the pay ledgers, and its possible to download a copy of the parchment from the National Archives for a small fee, although, and my sample is very small, I often find that service documents are either not available or are incomplete during these early years. It is therefore more difficult to trace the career of a man who served in the R.N. prior to 1853, unless he served over 20 years, when he might have qualified for a pension, when a record of service was created to prove a man's entitlement to a pension. Just to be sure have had a look in the National Archives post 1853 service records and pension claims : http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/royal-navy-ratings-1853-1923/ but can find no trace of a John Nutman. You might also find this document helpful since it summarises much of what I've said here and more. If, however, as in your case he only served for 7 years, if this was time served prior to 1853, then you probably have the difficult task of finding a starting point as you need to know the name of at least one of the R.N. vessels in which he served during his seagoing career and hope that either the Muster or Pay Lists for this vessel survive for the period that your relative was on board. That said, I don't know if mention is made in his Merchant Service papers of any time spent serving on board an R.N. vessel, say as a previous ship or where he was discharge to ? Purely as a matter of interest am transcribing the movements etc., of RN vessels circa 1840-1845 at the present time and note that the Navy at Portsmouth and Plymouth send vessels quite regularly to Liverpool and Bristol and other West Coast ports, to recruit Merchant Service seamen for vessels commissioning at the South Coast ports mentioned, this being a period when there was a strong demand for seamen what with the Royal Navy being active in the Mediterranean, and on the coast and up the major rivers of China during the First China War, dare I say it, although rarely mentioned until recently, supporting the East India Company in its aims to sell opium to the locals !! Whilst not very positive advice hope it helps a little. Paul On Wed, 14 Oct 2015 00:26:29 -0400, mktgmaven2001 via <mariners@rootsweb.com> wrote: > >Hi, > >I am now looking for more for John Nutman Sr. Was not able to find a M&M Certificate on Ancestry. > >I think this is my John Nutman Sr. On Find My Past, there are some records for merchant seamen and the image says he served in the Royal Navy 7 years. How can I find out more? According to the record, he was living in Liverpool in 1845 which would be correct. > >Thanks, Kathleen > > > >First name(s) > >JOHN > >Last name >Nutman > >Age >- > >Birth year >1789 > >Birth day >12 > >Birth month >11 > >Birth place >Colchester > >Birth county >ESSEX > >Place >- > >Discharge number >- > >Identity certificate number >- > >Card type >- > >Date range >1845-1854 > >Series >BT113 > >Piece number >210 > >Record set >Merchant Navy Seamen > >Category >Education & work > >Subcategory >Merchant navy & maritime > >Collections from > >Great Britain > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html