Hi Pam Regret to advise that the Navy List corrected to the end of December 1814 does not include a George HEPBURN and only has a John HEPBURN, whose date of seniority in that rank was 25 July 1798. See Google Books : <http://books.google.com/books?id=0xYYAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA193&dq=Hepburn+George+Master&hl=en&ei=lpDsTar_EMbOsgapn7jnCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Hepburn%20George%20Master&f=false> I appreciate that this is the wrong page in the book, but it was the only page I could reference so that you can have a look for yourself, to make sure I've not missed anything. Masters are listed in both seniority and alphabetical order in 2 different parts of the book. Also regret that I can't find him in the National Archives database of Royal Naval Officers' Service Records (ADM 196). Service records of officers who joined the Royal Navy, 1756 -1917. : take links from : http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/adm196.asp One wonders if he might have been a Master's Mate or Second Master and was still under training, In which case he won't be included in either of the two sources mentioned above. You also imply that he was married at the age of 23, which was very young for an officer in the Royal Navy, where the earliest one was expected to marry was about the age of 30, and to marry before that age would have been frowned on, or worse ! Even in the early days of my time in the service, in the 1950s, an officer was discouraged from marrying before he was 25 and was ineligible to receive any of the benefits to which the then modern naval officer was entitled...so no marriage allowance and married quarters etc. As they used to say,,,,,as a naval officer you married the service first ;-) And whilst we are on the subject, naval ratings were not expected to get marred before the age of 21, and if they did, again no married quarters or any or the several allowances to which married men may have been entitled in those days. And yes, love can over come anything and I knew a few officers and men, who despite the best advice, did marry before they attained these ages, but boy did they struggle financially until they reached the qualifying ages. I would guess that technically he could have been a Master in the Royal Navy at the age of say 20, if he'd passed the appropriate exams, and accumulated the necessary sea service etc, and had been recommended. Although the reverse was also true and many Midshipmen, similar rating to Master's Mate, who were perhaps not the brightest in the pack, who were discharged from the service at the end of the Napoleonic Wars and War of 1812, in almost middle age, and there is the well known Punch cartoon of a midshipman shining shoes on a street in London having given the best years of his life serving in the Royal Navy during the war. So perhaps your George put to good use what the navy had taught him and he soon became a Master in the Merchant Service ? Quite a few naval officers of the rank of Lieutenant, who were put out to grass at the end of the war on half-pay, almost the equivalent of having retired, became Masters in the Merchant Service, but one only seems to come across these people in the normal course when there was an accident or something. A Master in the Royal Navy was a little different at this date to a Master in the Merchant Service in that, whilst he was responsible to the Captain for the day to day running of the ship, as a sailing vessel, and was responsible for the vessel's navigation and so forth, he did not have the many responsibilities that a Master in the Merchant Service may have had, unless he was one of the few senior masters who were appointed as say master and commander of a naval transport or troop ship. So regret am unable to help on the R.N. side of things, and apologies for the waffle in between. Regards Paul On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:42:25 +1200, p.hislop@paradise.net.nz wrote: >Hi, > >I have rejoined this list hoping that I might be able to extend my knowledge about my GGG Grandfather, Captain George HEPBURN. >I have received great help in the past but have a little more information now. > >Captain George died on board the Brig 'Highlander' in 1840 (on checking date of the newspaper it may well be 1839!) on the passage from Demerara to Greenock, Scotland. (where he lived). >He had formerly been commander of the barques 'Cecilia' and 'Felicity' and, according to his death notice, "highly respected as a shipmaster in the Demerara trade". > >His marriage, in Edinburgh, in 1813 states he was a Master in the Royal Navy. Would it be usual to have the title 'Master' by the age of 23yrs?? > >If someone dies at sea I presume because death registration was not compulsory (c 1840) that it would have not been recorded at the home port? I certainly can find no record of it in ScotlandsPeople site. > >Looking forward to any assistance available with regard to his tenure in the Royal Navy.... :-) > >Many thanks, in anticipation. > >Pam > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html

Ah, but if you just search "Hepburn" you find on p.57 of the same Navy List a "Geo. Hepburn" who was acting Master of FORWARD, gv (Gun vessel I presume) No.422. So maybe the rank (or warrant) was not made substantive by the end of the Napoleonic wars. Cheers Piers -----Original Message----- From: mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Benyon Sent: 06 June 2011 10:58 To: MARINERS@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MAR] Captain George HEPBURN Hi Pam Regret to advise that the Navy List corrected to the end of December 1814 does not include a George HEPBURN and only has a John HEPBURN, whose date of seniority in that rank was 25 July 1798. See Google Books : <http://books.google.com/books?id=0xYYAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA193&dq=Hepburn+George+Ma ster&hl=en&ei=lpDsTar_EMbOsgapn7jnCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2& ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Hepburn%20George%20Master&f=false> I appreciate that this is the wrong page in the book, but it was the only page I could reference so that you can have a look for yourself, to make sure I've not missed anything. Masters are listed in both seniority and alphabetical order in 2 different parts of the book. Also regret that I can't find him in the National Archives database of Royal Naval Officers' Service Records (ADM 196). Service records of officers who joined the Royal Navy, 1756 -1917. : take links from : http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/adm196.asp One wonders if he might have been a Master's Mate or Second Master and was still under training, In which case he won't be included in either of the two sources mentioned above. You also imply that he was married at the age of 23, which was very young for an officer in the Royal Navy, where the earliest one was expected to marry was about the age of 30, and to marry before that age would have been frowned on, or worse ! Even in the early days of my time in the service, in the 1950s, an officer was discouraged from marrying before he was 25 and was ineligible to receive any of the benefits to which the then modern naval officer was entitled...so no marriage allowance and married quarters etc. As they used to say,,,,,as a naval officer you married the service first ;-) And whilst we are on the subject, naval ratings were not expected to get marred before the age of 21, and if they did, again no married quarters or any or the several allowances to which married men may have been entitled in those days. And yes, love can over come anything and I knew a few officers and men, who despite the best advice, did marry before they attained these ages, but boy did they struggle financially until they reached the qualifying ages. I would guess that technically he could have been a Master in the Royal Navy at the age of say 20, if he'd passed the appropriate exams, and accumulated the necessary sea service etc, and had been recommended. Although the reverse was also true and many Midshipmen, similar rating to Master's Mate, who were perhaps not the brightest in the pack, who were discharged from the service at the end of the Napoleonic Wars and War of 1812, in almost middle age, and there is the well known Punch cartoon of a midshipman shining shoes on a street in London having given the best years of his life serving in the Royal Navy during the war. So perhaps your George put to good use what the navy had taught him and he soon became a Master in the Merchant Service ? Quite a few naval officers of the rank of Lieutenant, who were put out to grass at the end of the war on half-pay, almost the equivalent of having retired, became Masters in the Merchant Service, but one only seems to come across these people in the normal course when there was an accident or something. A Master in the Royal Navy was a little different at this date to a Master in the Merchant Service in that, whilst he was responsible to the Captain for the day to day running of the ship, as a sailing vessel, and was responsible for the vessel's navigation and so forth, he did not have the many responsibilities that a Master in the Merchant Service may have had, unless he was one of the few senior masters who were appointed as say master and commander of a naval transport or troop ship. So regret am unable to help on the R.N. side of things, and apologies for the waffle in between. Regards Paul On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:42:25 +1200, p.hislop@paradise.net.nz wrote: >Hi, > >I have rejoined this list hoping that I might be able to extend my knowledge about my GGG Grandfather, Captain George HEPBURN. >I have received great help in the past but have a little more information now. > >Captain George died on board the Brig 'Highlander' in 1840 (on checking date of the newspaper it may well be 1839!) on the passage from Demerara to Greenock, Scotland. (where he lived). >He had formerly been commander of the barques 'Cecilia' and 'Felicity' and, according to his death notice, "highly respected as a shipmaster in the Demerara trade". > >His marriage, in Edinburgh, in 1813 states he was a Master in the Royal Navy. Would it be usual to have the title 'Master' by the age of 23yrs?? > >If someone dies at sea I presume because death registration was not compulsory (c 1840) that it would have not been recorded at the home port? I certainly can find no record of it in ScotlandsPeople site. > >Looking forward to any assistance available with regard to his tenure in the Royal Navy.... :-) > >Many thanks, in anticipation. > >Pam > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

There's some good stuff about HMS FORWARD (built 1805) at http://www.berwickshipyard.com/RoverForward.html . The Lt Banks referred to was Hepburn's captain as per the 1814 Navy List. It would be interesting to know when Hepburn joined the vessel and whether he was present for any of the actions mentioned. The Navy not being my thing, others on the list will know better where to look to see if any of the vessel's records have survived, and may be able to comment on whether an "acting master" might have been promoted from within the ship's company? -----Original Message----- From: mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Piers Smith-Cresswell Sent: 06 June 2011 12:15 To: 'Paul Benyon'; MARINERS@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MAR] Captain George HEPBURN Ah, but if you just search "Hepburn" you find on p.57 of the same Navy List a "Geo. Hepburn" who was acting Master of FORWARD, gv (Gun vessel I presume) No.422. So maybe the rank (or warrant) was not made substantive by the end of the Napoleonic wars. Cheers Piers -----Original Message----- From: mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Benyon Sent: 06 June 2011 10:58 To: MARINERS@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MAR] Captain George HEPBURN Hi Pam Regret to advise that the Navy List corrected to the end of December 1814 does not include a George HEPBURN and only has a John HEPBURN, whose date of seniority in that rank was 25 July 1798. See Google Books : <http://books.google.com/books?id=0xYYAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA193&dq=Hepburn+George+Ma ster&hl=en&ei=lpDsTar_EMbOsgapn7jnCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2& ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Hepburn%20George%20Master&f=false> I appreciate that this is the wrong page in the book, but it was the only page I could reference so that you can have a look for yourself, to make sure I've not missed anything. Masters are listed in both seniority and alphabetical order in 2 different parts of the book. Also regret that I can't find him in the National Archives database of Royal Naval Officers' Service Records (ADM 196). Service records of officers who joined the Royal Navy, 1756 -1917. : take links from : http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/adm196.asp One wonders if he might have been a Master's Mate or Second Master and was still under training, In which case he won't be included in either of the two sources mentioned above. You also imply that he was married at the age of 23, which was very young for an officer in the Royal Navy, where the earliest one was expected to marry was about the age of 30, and to marry before that age would have been frowned on, or worse ! Even in the early days of my time in the service, in the 1950s, an officer was discouraged from marrying before he was 25 and was ineligible to receive any of the benefits to which the then modern naval officer was entitled...so no marriage allowance and married quarters etc. As they used to say,,,,,as a naval officer you married the service first ;-) And whilst we are on the subject, naval ratings were not expected to get marred before the age of 21, and if they did, again no married quarters or any or the several allowances to which married men may have been entitled in those days. And yes, love can over come anything and I knew a few officers and men, who despite the best advice, did marry before they attained these ages, but boy did they struggle financially until they reached the qualifying ages. I would guess that technically he could have been a Master in the Royal Navy at the age of say 20, if he'd passed the appropriate exams, and accumulated the necessary sea service etc, and had been recommended. Although the reverse was also true and many Midshipmen, similar rating to Master's Mate, who were perhaps not the brightest in the pack, who were discharged from the service at the end of the Napoleonic Wars and War of 1812, in almost middle age, and there is the well known Punch cartoon of a midshipman shining shoes on a street in London having given the best years of his life serving in the Royal Navy during the war. So perhaps your George put to good use what the navy had taught him and he soon became a Master in the Merchant Service ? Quite a few naval officers of the rank of Lieutenant, who were put out to grass at the end of the war on half-pay, almost the equivalent of having retired, became Masters in the Merchant Service, but one only seems to come across these people in the normal course when there was an accident or something. A Master in the Royal Navy was a little different at this date to a Master in the Merchant Service in that, whilst he was responsible to the Captain for the day to day running of the ship, as a sailing vessel, and was responsible for the vessel's navigation and so forth, he did not have the many responsibilities that a Master in the Merchant Service may have had, unless he was one of the few senior masters who were appointed as say master and commander of a naval transport or troop ship. So regret am unable to help on the R.N. side of things, and apologies for the waffle in between. Regards Paul On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:42:25 +1200, p.hislop@paradise.net.nz wrote: >Hi, > >I have rejoined this list hoping that I might be able to extend my knowledge about my GGG Grandfather, Captain George HEPBURN. >I have received great help in the past but have a little more information now. > >Captain George died on board the Brig 'Highlander' in 1840 (on checking date of the newspaper it may well be 1839!) on the passage from Demerara to Greenock, Scotland. (where he lived). >He had formerly been commander of the barques 'Cecilia' and 'Felicity' and, according to his death notice, "highly respected as a shipmaster in the Demerara trade". > >His marriage, in Edinburgh, in 1813 states he was a Master in the Royal Navy. Would it be usual to have the title 'Master' by the age of 23yrs?? > >If someone dies at sea I presume because death registration was not compulsory (c 1840) that it would have not been recorded at the home port? I certainly can find no record of it in ScotlandsPeople site. > >Looking forward to any assistance available with regard to his tenure in the Royal Navy.... :-) > >Many thanks, in anticipation. > >Pam > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Good one Piers.. thanks....in which case here are a few notes I made for the Forward, which was broken up in 1815 : http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/18-1900/F/01864a.html But regret nothing further in the Navy Lists for the years 1816 and 1827 as far as I can see, (i.e. those to which I have access), and would guess that he wasn't confirmed as a Master with the end of the War, but am unable to confirm it, either way. FWIW can find no claim for a pension in the National Archives ADM 29 series. Regards Paul On Mon, 6 Jun 2011 12:15:03 +0100, you wrote: >Ah, but if you just search "Hepburn" you find on p.57 of the same Navy List >a "Geo. Hepburn" who was acting Master of FORWARD, gv (Gun vessel I presume) >No.422. > >So maybe the rank (or warrant) was not made substantive by the end of the >Napoleonic wars. > > >Cheers >Piers > >-----Original Message----- >From: mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com] >On Behalf Of Paul Benyon >Sent: 06 June 2011 10:58 >To: MARINERS@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [MAR] Captain George HEPBURN > >Hi Pam > >Regret to advise that the Navy List corrected to the end of December >1814 does not include a George HEPBURN and only has a John HEPBURN, >whose date of seniority in that rank was 25 July 1798. See Google >Books : > ><http://books.google.com/books?id=0xYYAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA193&dq=Hepburn+George+Ma >ster&hl=en&ei=lpDsTar_EMbOsgapn7jnCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2& >ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Hepburn%20George%20Master&f=false> > >I appreciate that this is the wrong page in the book, but it was the >only page I could reference so that you can have a look for yourself, >to make sure I've not missed anything. Masters are listed in both >seniority and alphabetical order in 2 different parts of the book. > >Also regret that I can't find him in the National Archives database of >Royal Naval Officers' Service Records (ADM 196). Service records of >officers who joined the Royal Navy, 1756 -1917. : take links from : > >http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/adm196.asp > >One wonders if he might have been a Master's Mate or Second Master and >was still under training, In which case he won't be included in either >of the two sources mentioned above. You also imply that he was >married at the age of 23, which was very young for an officer in the >Royal Navy, where the earliest one was expected to marry was about the >age of 30, and to marry before that age would have been frowned on, or >worse ! Even in the early days of my time in the service, in the >1950s, an officer was discouraged from marrying before he was 25 and >was ineligible to receive any of the benefits to which the then modern >naval officer was entitled...so no marriage allowance and married >quarters etc. As they used to say,,,,,as a naval officer you married >the service first ;-) And whilst we are on the subject, naval >ratings were not expected to get marred before the age of 21, and if >they did, again no married quarters or any or the several allowances >to which married men may have been entitled in those days. And yes, >love can over come anything and I knew a few officers and men, who >despite the best advice, did marry before they attained these ages, >but boy did they struggle financially until they reached the >qualifying ages. > >I would guess that technically he could have been a Master in the >Royal Navy at the age of say 20, if he'd passed the appropriate exams, >and accumulated the necessary sea service etc, and had been >recommended. Although the reverse was also true and many Midshipmen, >similar rating to Master's Mate, who were perhaps not the brightest in >the pack, who were discharged from the service at the end of the >Napoleonic Wars and War of 1812, in almost middle age, and there is >the well known Punch cartoon of a midshipman shining shoes on a street >in London having given the best years of his life serving in the Royal >Navy during the war. So perhaps your George put to good use what the >navy had taught him and he soon became a Master in the Merchant >Service ? Quite a few naval officers of the rank of Lieutenant, who >were put out to grass at the end of the war on half-pay, almost the >equivalent of having retired, became Masters in the Merchant Service, >but one only seems to come across these people in the normal course >when there was an accident or something. A Master in the Royal Navy >was a little different at this date to a Master in the Merchant >Service in that, whilst he was responsible to the Captain for the day >to day running of the ship, as a sailing vessel, and was responsible >for the vessel's navigation and so forth, he did not have the many >responsibilities that a Master in the Merchant Service may have had, >unless he was one of the few senior masters who were appointed as say >master and commander of a naval transport or troop ship. > >So regret am unable to help on the R.N. side of things, and apologies >for the waffle in between. > >Regards > >Paul > >On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:42:25 +1200, p.hislop@paradise.net.nz wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>I have rejoined this list hoping that I might be able to extend my >knowledge about my GGG Grandfather, Captain George HEPBURN. >>I have received great help in the past but have a little more information >now. >> >>Captain George died on board the Brig 'Highlander' in 1840 (on checking >date of the newspaper it may well be 1839!) on the passage from Demerara to >Greenock, Scotland. (where he lived). >>He had formerly been commander of the barques 'Cecilia' and 'Felicity' and, >according to his death notice, "highly respected as a shipmaster in the >Demerara trade". >> >>His marriage, in Edinburgh, in 1813 states he was a Master in the Royal >Navy. Would it be usual to have the title 'Master' by the age of 23yrs?? >> >>If someone dies at sea I presume because death registration was not >compulsory (c 1840) that it would have not been recorded at the home port? >I certainly can find no record of it in ScotlandsPeople site. >> >>Looking forward to any assistance available with regard to his tenure in >the Royal Navy.... :-) >> >>Many thanks, in anticipation. >> >>Pam >> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message >50° 33' N, 2° 26' W >http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message > > 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html