I agree regarding changing from a purser to a carpenter which was a very skilled craft at sea. Most unlikely especially as Joseph was training in 1861 Census as an accountant's clerk. Joseph's father Peter was working throughout his career for HM Customs & Revenue. In the census returns their neighbours are also in the same type of employment. Looking for Joseph in these records as a purser or clerk seems a more likely chance of finding him. As for Elizabeth Clarke in 1891, does the mother-in-law have the right surname [Singleton]? If not, I doubt that Thomas is your Joseph's brother. Lauretta in London UK > From: ovington1@sky.com > To: mariners@rootsweb.com > Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 23:04:25 +0100 > Subject: Re: [MAR] Missing Seaman > > Hi again > > I am quite happy to be told otherwise but ships carpenters were always time served and very much a > trade > > Personally I cannot see a clerk, storeman or purser all of which may have been carried out by the > same man being found as a carpenter at any time > > Ships carpenters were a vital part of the ships crew, moreso in the days of sail and less so with > the iron ships but still necessary, perhaps they needed to be more versatile in later years but an > ordinary seaman would not have passed for a carpenter > > No more than a carpenter would pass for a purser or clerk > > I would be more than surprised if the carpenter is your missing man > > If you post the census refs you have perhaps we can find more > > You say he must have died after 1887 when he is given as father on the marriage cert > > Did he act as witness? otherwise the lack of the word "deceased" does not mean a great deal, > information was only as good as the informants knowledge (or honesty) and they gave what they were > asked for > > If the question was , "your fathers name?", thats what would be given , fathers occupation is very > often a little elevated on marriage certs, but purser would fit with a clerk or accountants clerk > > He could of course have simply legged it with the barmaid from the Rose & Crown <g> > > Stranger things have been known to happen > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > > > Nivard, > > > > I did say that he was shown in the 1881 census as a ship's steward. This was > > incorrect; it was the birth certificate of one of his children in 1881 that > > showed him as a ship's steward. The 1887 record showing him as a purser was > > the marriage certificate of another child. Joseph had married Elizabeth > > Simmons in Liverpool in 1864. The last census record I have of him in 1861 > > when he was described as an accountant's clerk living with his parents at > > Kirkdale, Liverpool. His wife and children can be found on the 1871 census > > but he is missing so he may have been away at sea although in 1879 on > > another child's birth certificate he is described as a storekeeper. > > > > I cannot find his death in England/Wales. I know that he must have died or > > was missing presumed dead sometime after the last record of him in 1887 and > > 1891 when the census shows that Joseph's brother was living with Joseph's > > wife and describing themselves as man and wife although they were not > > married. (It was still illegal at that time for a man to marry his brother's > > wife). > > > > I had the impression that it was quite possible that a man may go to sea on > > one voyage as a purser and another as a carpenter and that ship's carpenters > > were not what we, today, know as time served tradesmen. I think that the 10 > > year difference in age could well be just an error. He certainly did not die > > in the area where his home was. I have been through all the burial and well > > as death records. > > > > David > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Lauretta, Joseph did not have a brother named Thomas - not sure where this name has come from. He did, however, have a brother, Ebenezer, who was a ship's steward who became a ship's carpenter; he is described as such on the census return for the vessel Oakmore in 1901. Elizabeth Clarke was Joseph's wife. Her maiden surname was Simmons. There is no mother in law mentioned on the 1891 census entry for Elizabeth. Don't know of a Singleton. David -----Original Message----- From: mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of L Harris Sent: 16 September 2011 19:47 To: mariners@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MAR] Missing Seaman I agree regarding changing from a purser to a carpenter which was a very skilled craft at sea. Most unlikely especially as Joseph was training in 1861 Census as an accountant's clerk. Joseph's father Peter was working throughout his career for HM Customs & Revenue. In the census returns their neighbours are also in the same type of employment. Looking for Joseph in these records as a purser or clerk seems a more likely chance of finding him. As for Elizabeth Clarke in 1891, does the mother-in-law have the right surname [Singleton]? If not, I doubt that Thomas is your Joseph's brother. Lauretta in London UK > From: ovington1@sky.com > To: mariners@rootsweb.com > Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 23:04:25 +0100 > Subject: Re: [MAR] Missing Seaman > > Hi again > > I am quite happy to be told otherwise but ships carpenters were always > time served and very much a trade > > Personally I cannot see a clerk, storeman or purser all of which may > have been carried out by the same man being found as a carpenter at > any time > > Ships carpenters were a vital part of the ships crew, moreso in the > days of sail and less so with the iron ships but still necessary, > perhaps they needed to be more versatile in later years but an > ordinary seaman would not have passed for a carpenter > > No more than a carpenter would pass for a purser or clerk > > I would be more than surprised if the carpenter is your missing man > > If you post the census refs you have perhaps we can find more > > You say he must have died after 1887 when he is given as father on the > marriage cert > > Did he act as witness? otherwise the lack of the word "deceased" does > not mean a great deal, information was only as good as the informants > knowledge (or honesty) and they gave what they were asked for > > If the question was , "your fathers name?", thats what would be given > , fathers occupation is very often a little elevated on marriage > certs, but purser would fit with a clerk or accountants clerk > > He could of course have simply legged it with the barmaid from the > Rose & Crown <g> > > Stranger things have been known to happen > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > > > Nivard, > > > > I did say that he was shown in the 1881 census as a ship's steward. > > This was incorrect; it was the birth certificate of one of his > > children in 1881 that showed him as a ship's steward. The 1887 > > record showing him as a purser was the marriage certificate of > > another child. Joseph had married Elizabeth Simmons in Liverpool in > > 1864. The last census record I have of him in 1861 when he was > > described as an accountant's clerk living with his parents at > > Kirkdale, Liverpool. His wife and children can be found on the 1871 > > census but he is missing so he may have been away at sea although in 1879 on another child's birth certificate he is described as a storekeeper. > > > > I cannot find his death in England/Wales. I know that he must have > > died or was missing presumed dead sometime after the last record of > > him in 1887 and > > 1891 when the census shows that Joseph's brother was living with > > Joseph's wife and describing themselves as man and wife although > > they were not married. (It was still illegal at that time for a man > > to marry his brother's wife). > > > > I had the impression that it was quite possible that a man may go to > > sea on one voyage as a purser and another as a carpenter and that > > ship's carpenters were not what we, today, know as time served > > tradesmen. I think that the 10 year difference in age could well be > > just an error. He certainly did not die in the area where his home > > was. I have been through all the burial and well as death records. > > > > David > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message