Hello Nivard, My current aim is to try to pursue Joseph the carpenter to the limit of available information as it is all I have. I seem to remember seeing a number of references to ship's carpenters being general handymen which some untrained people may be able to put their hand to. Unfortunately I cant remember my sources at present other than Joseph's brother, Ebenezer, who was described as a ship's steward in the 1891 census and as a ship's carpenter in the 1901. I don't have census information showing Joseph from the time he went to sea. David -----Original Message----- From: mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Nivard Ovington Sent: 15 September 2011 23:04 To: mariners@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MAR] Missing Seaman Hi again I am quite happy to be told otherwise but ships carpenters were always time served and very much a trade Personally I cannot see a clerk, storeman or purser all of which may have been carried out by the same man being found as a carpenter at any time Ships carpenters were a vital part of the ships crew, moreso in the days of sail and less so with the iron ships but still necessary, perhaps they needed to be more versatile in later years but an ordinary seaman would not have passed for a carpenter No more than a carpenter would pass for a purser or clerk I would be more than surprised if the carpenter is your missing man If you post the census refs you have perhaps we can find more You say he must have died after 1887 when he is given as father on the marriage cert Did he act as witness? otherwise the lack of the word "deceased" does not mean a great deal, information was only as good as the informants knowledge (or honesty) and they gave what they were asked for If the question was , "your fathers name?", thats what would be given , fathers occupation is very often a little elevated on marriage certs, but purser would fit with a clerk or accountants clerk He could of course have simply legged it with the barmaid from the Rose & Crown <g> Stranger things have been known to happen Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Nivard, > > I did say that he was shown in the 1881 census as a ship's steward. > This was incorrect; it was the birth certificate of one of his > children in 1881 that showed him as a ship's steward. The 1887 record > showing him as a purser was the marriage certificate of another child. > Joseph had married Elizabeth Simmons in Liverpool in 1864. The last > census record I have of him in 1861 when he was described as an > accountant's clerk living with his parents at Kirkdale, Liverpool. His > wife and children can be found on the 1871 census but he is missing so > he may have been away at sea although in 1879 on another child's birth certificate he is described as a storekeeper. > > I cannot find his death in England/Wales. I know that he must have > died or was missing presumed dead sometime after the last record of > him in 1887 and > 1891 when the census shows that Joseph's brother was living with > Joseph's wife and describing themselves as man and wife although they > were not married. (It was still illegal at that time for a man to > marry his brother's wife). > > I had the impression that it was quite possible that a man may go to > sea on one voyage as a purser and another as a carpenter and that > ship's carpenters were not what we, today, know as time served > tradesmen. I think that the 10 year difference in age could well be > just an error. He certainly did not die in the area where his home > was. I have been through all the burial and well as death records. > > David ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi again I don't blame you for checking every avenue , its the best way You did say you had him in 1861 and his wife and family in 1871, if you post the census refs there is a better chance of others looking for the right people If you also have the 1851 & 1841 post those also Perhaps another pair of eyes (or more) may be able to find more clues for you Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Hello Nivard, > > My current aim is to try to pursue Joseph the carpenter to the limit of > available information as it is all I have. > > I seem to remember seeing a number of references to ship's carpenters being > general handymen which some untrained people may be able to put their hand > to. Unfortunately I cant remember my sources at present other than Joseph's > brother, Ebenezer, who was described as a ship's steward in the 1891 census > and as a ship's carpenter in the 1901. > > I don't have census information showing Joseph from the time he went to sea. > > > David

Hi David Did you notice on the death at sea registration you think may be your Joseph CLARKE there is a note "Last place of abode piper city" The only Piper City I can find is in Illinois, USA Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) >> Hello Nivard, >> >> My current aim is to try to pursue Joseph the carpenter to the limit of >> available information as it is all I have. >> >> I seem to remember seeing a number of references to ship's carpenters being >> general handymen which some untrained people may be able to put their hand >> to. Unfortunately I cant remember my sources at present other than Joseph's >> brother, Ebenezer, who was described as a ship's steward in the 1891 census >> and as a ship's carpenter in the 1901. >> >> I don't have census information showing Joseph from the time he went to sea. >> >> >> David

Nivard, Joseph was born on 22 September 1841, just too late for the 1841 census. 1851: Living with mother Sarah Clarke at 78 Park Street West Derby Liverpool Reg District: West Derby, Sub Reg: Toxteth Park, ED: 1az, Schedule: 100, Piece: 2188, Folio: 229, Page: 24. 1861: Living with his parents Peter and Sarah Clarke at 8, Thomaston Street, Kirkdale, Liverpool. Reg District: West Derby, Sub Reg: Everton, ED: 62, Schedule: 190, Piece: 2720, Folio: 113, Page: 39. 1871: Wife, Elizabeth Clarke, and family living at home of wife's father at 42 Wesley Street Liverpool Reg District: West Derby, Sub Reg: Toxteth Park, ED: 5, Schedule: 45, Piece: 3794, Folio: 8, Page: 10. 1881: Wife, Elizabeth Clarke, (described as mariners wife) and family living at home of wife's father, at 2 East View, Rice Lane, Liscard, Cheshire. Reg District: Birkenhead, Sub Reg: Wallasey, ED: 8, Piece: 3591, Folio: 20, Page: 33. 1891: Wife, Elizabeth Clarke, living at 11 Myrtle Grove Wallasey with husbands brother, Ebenezer Clarke, (as man and wife), Reg District: Birkenhead, Sub Reg: Wallasey, ED: 23, Piece: 2897, Folio: 108, Page: 33. 1901: Wife, Elizabeth Clarke, living at 49 Clarence Road, Poulton cum Seacombe, with husbands brother, Ebenezer Clarke, (as man and wife) Reg District: Birkenhead, Sub Reg: Wallasey, ED: 36, Schedule 83, Piece: 3405, Folio: 179, Page: 16. Ebenezer is also shown as part of the ship's crew of the 'Oakmore' at Hornby Dock, Bootle. He is listed as the carpenter although in previous census he is shown as ship's steward. He did not receive formal training as a carpenter. Reg District: West Derby, Sub Reg: Bootle, ED: Oakmore, Schedule: 1, Piece: 3464, Folio: 183. David -----Original Message----- From: mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Nivard Ovington Sent: 16 September 2011 16:23 To: mariners@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MAR] Missing Seaman Hi again I don't blame you for checking every avenue , its the best way You did say you had him in 1861 and his wife and family in 1871, if you post the census refs there is a better chance of others looking for the right people If you also have the 1851 & 1841 post those also Perhaps another pair of eyes (or more) may be able to find more clues for you Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Hello Nivard, > > My current aim is to try to pursue Joseph the carpenter to the limit of > available information as it is all I have. > > I seem to remember seeing a number of references to ship's carpenters being > general handymen which some untrained people may be able to put their hand > to. Unfortunately I cant remember my sources at present other than Joseph's > brother, Ebenezer, who was described as a ship's steward in the 1891 census > and as a ship's carpenter in the 1901. > > I don't have census information showing Joseph from the time he went to sea. > > > David ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message