Hi all, I am trying to find the owners and final fate, of the SD –14 ship TAN CHON built 1980 by Austin & Pickersgill as GLOBE TRADER for Westfalia Shipping Corp. Liberia 1997 owners were Oldendorff Asia Pte Ltd.-Singapore 1999 IMPALA Impala Shipping Pte Ltd –Singapore 2004 RYONG GANG 2 Taedonggang Sonbak Co.Ltd.—North Korea 2014 TAN CHON ? Any details would be gratefully received. Joe McMillan, South Australia. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

What kind of time are you expecting us tomorrow? I thought we'd probably leave home at about 2 - 2.30. Does that sound ok? Or a bit later? Xx > On 15 Oct 2015, at 8:20 pm, Paul Benyon via <mariners@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > Have just received a message from the British Newspaper Archive : > > "We've added the Army and Navy Gazette for the 1860s. The Gazette was > a long standing publication aimed at the armed forces so if you're > researching anything or anyone military it's a fantastic resource. > British forces were in action across Victoria's empire during the > 1860s so there's plenty to read about." > > http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ > > Haven't look yet, so can't comment.... > > Paul > PS have no vested interest apart from being a subscriber and user, and > whilst I'm at it would also add the Hampshire Telegraph for 19th > Century RN shipping movements, launches, dockings etc. and changes to > RN rules and regulations, along with things being trialled etc see : > > http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/RN/Notes.html#lightning > > for some examples of the latter that I've recently come across in > 1842, and perhaps a measure of how the R.N. evolved from sail to > steam, i.e. very slowly ; usually two paces forward and one back, as > in the case of ships' hulls, when iron hulls were first built it was > discovered that the metal shattered when struck hard by a canon ball, > killing or maiming those in the vicinity.....so back to square one and > over the years develop a composite iron and wooden hull, until such > time as a metal came along which didn't shatter...... > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

2004 RYONG GANG 2 Taedonggang Sonbak Co.Ltd.—North Korea 2007 Ryonggang Shipping Co Ltd (mng Ocean Maritime Management Co Ltd) - North Korea 2014 TAN CHON Tanchon Shipping Co Ltd (mng Yongjin Ship Management Co Ltd) - North Korea Unfortunately, I am aware of no reported movements as TAN CHON. David On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 5:57 AM, Joe McMillan via <mariners@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hi all, > I am trying to find the owners and final fate, of the SD –14 ship > TAN CHON > built 1980 by Austin & Pickersgill as > GLOBE TRADER for Westfalia Shipping Corp. Liberia > 1997 owners were Oldendorff Asia Pte Ltd.-Singapore > 1999 IMPALA Impala Shipping Pte Ltd –Singapore > 2004 RYONG GANG 2 Taedonggang Sonbak Co.Ltd.—North Korea > 2014 TAN CHON ? > Any details would be gratefully received. > Joe McMillan, > South Australia. > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Have just received a message from the British Newspaper Archive : "We've added the Army and Navy Gazette for the 1860s. The Gazette was a long standing publication aimed at the armed forces so if you're researching anything or anyone military it's a fantastic resource. British forces were in action across Victoria's empire during the 1860s so there's plenty to read about." http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ Haven't look yet, so can't comment.... Paul PS have no vested interest apart from being a subscriber and user, and whilst I'm at it would also add the Hampshire Telegraph for 19th Century RN shipping movements, launches, dockings etc. and changes to RN rules and regulations, along with things being trialled etc see : http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/RN/Notes.html#lightning for some examples of the latter that I've recently come across in 1842, and perhaps a measure of how the R.N. evolved from sail to steam, i.e. very slowly ; usually two paces forward and one back, as in the case of ships' hulls, when iron hulls were first built it was discovered that the metal shattered when struck hard by a canon ball, killing or maiming those in the vicinity.....so back to square one and over the years develop a composite iron and wooden hull, until such time as a metal came along which didn't shatter......

Thank you Paul, very informative! I suspect in John Nutman Sr's case, his service was prior to 1853. Kathleen -----Original Message----- From: Paul Benyon <pbenyon@pbenyon.plus.com> To: mktgmaven2001 <mktgmaven2001@aol.com>; mariners <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wed, Oct 14, 2015 2:15 am Subject: Re: [MAR] John Nutman Sr. Mariner Hi Kathleen It wasn't unusual in those days, especially prior to 1853 for men to serve in both the Royal Navy (R.N.) and the Merchant Service. Some seamen continued to switch between both services after 1853, especially during the Crimea War (1853-1856) and during the Indian Mutiny and Second China War (circa 1858-1861), when the R.N. expanded to meet the increased demand for its services, and there was, therefore, an increased demand for seamen. If he served in the R.N. prior to 1853, although there were some exceptions, men usually signed on for the period that a ship was in commission, which usually depended where the vessel was serving i.e. ships which were going to operate in the Far East and East Indies etc. usually commissioned for about 4 years, whereas ships serving in UK waters might only be in commission for a year or so. Eithere way, when an R.N. ship paid off most men (excepting experienced gunnery ratings if they could be persuaded otherwise) were discharged to shore at the end of that commission. If he served in the Royal Navy after 1853, when the Admiralty introduced long term engagements of about 10 years there were 2 forms of service: (i) as above, when they signed on just for the period that a ship was in commission and were discharged to shore when it paid off or (ii) he could sign on for one of the new 10 year engagements, and if he wanted to curtail this engagement he could buy his discharge from the service, or alternatively, less legally, but as many did, desert from the RN, and never go back again. Men leaving the Service legally were issued with a service record, known as a "parchment," and whilst serving the service was supposed to maintain a copy of this document, taking information from the pay ledgers, and its possible to download a copy of the parchment from the National Archives for a small fee, although, and my sample is very small, I often find that service documents are either not available or are incomplete during these early years. It is therefore more difficult to trace the career of a man who served in the R.N. prior to 1853, unless he served over 20 years, when he might have qualified for a pension, when a record of service was created to prove a man's entitlement to a pension. Just to be sure have had a look in the National Archives post 1853 service records and pension claims : http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/royal-navy-ratings-1853-1923/ but can find no trace of a John Nutman. You might also find this document helpful since it summarises much of what I've said here and more. If, however, as in your case he only served for 7 years, if this was time served prior to 1853, then you probably have the difficult task of finding a starting point as you need to know the name of at least one of the R.N. vessels in which he served during his seagoing career and hope that either the Muster or Pay Lists for this vessel survive for the period that your relative was on board. That said, I don't know if mention is made in his Merchant Service papers of any time spent serving on board an R.N. vessel, say as a previous ship or where he was discharge to ? Purely as a matter of interest am transcribing the movements etc., of RN vessels circa 1840-1845 at the present time and note that the Navy at Portsmouth and Plymouth send vessels quite regularly to Liverpool and Bristol and other West Coast ports, to recruit Merchant Service seamen for vessels commissioning at the South Coast ports mentioned, this being a period when there was a strong demand for seamen what with the Royal Navy being active in the Mediterranean, and on the coast and up the major rivers of China during the First China War, dare I say it, although rarely mentioned until recently, supporting the East India Company in its aims to sell opium to the locals !! Whilst not very positive advice hope it helps a little. Paul On Wed, 14 Oct 2015 00:26:29 -0400, mktgmaven2001 via <mariners@rootsweb.com> wrote: > >Hi, > >I am now looking for more for John Nutman Sr. Was not able to find a M&M Certificate on Ancestry. > >I think this is my John Nutman Sr. On Find My Past, there are some records for merchant seamen and the image says he served in the Royal Navy 7 years. How can I find out more? According to the record, he was living in Liverpool in 1845 which would be correct. > >Thanks, Kathleen > > > >First name(s) > >JOHN > >Last name >Nutman > >Age >- > >Birth year >1789 > >Birth day >12 > >Birth month >11 > >Birth place >Colchester > >Birth county >ESSEX > >Place >- > >Discharge number >- > >Identity certificate number >- > >Card type >- > >Date range >1845-1854 > >Series >BT113 > >Piece number >210 > >Record set >Merchant Navy Seamen > >Category >Education & work > >Subcategory >Merchant navy & maritime > >Collections from > >Great Britain > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html

Hi Kathleen It wasn't unusual in those days, especially prior to 1853 for men to serve in both the Royal Navy (R.N.) and the Merchant Service. Some seamen continued to switch between both services after 1853, especially during the Crimea War (1853-1856) and during the Indian Mutiny and Second China War (circa 1858-1861), when the R.N. expanded to meet the increased demand for its services, and there was, therefore, an increased demand for seamen. If he served in the R.N. prior to 1853, although there were some exceptions, men usually signed on for the period that a ship was in commission, which usually depended where the vessel was serving i.e. ships which were going to operate in the Far East and East Indies etc. usually commissioned for about 4 years, whereas ships serving in UK waters might only be in commission for a year or so. Eithere way, when an R.N. ship paid off most men (excepting experienced gunnery ratings if they could be persuaded otherwise) were discharged to shore at the end of that commission. If he served in the Royal Navy after 1853, when the Admiralty introduced long term engagements of about 10 years there were 2 forms of service: (i) as above, when they signed on just for the period that a ship was in commission and were discharged to shore when it paid off or (ii) he could sign on for one of the new 10 year engagements, and if he wanted to curtail this engagement he could buy his discharge from the service, or alternatively, less legally, but as many did, desert from the RN, and never go back again. Men leaving the Service legally were issued with a service record, known as a "parchment," and whilst serving the service was supposed to maintain a copy of this document, taking information from the pay ledgers, and its possible to download a copy of the parchment from the National Archives for a small fee, although, and my sample is very small, I often find that service documents are either not available or are incomplete during these early years. It is therefore more difficult to trace the career of a man who served in the R.N. prior to 1853, unless he served over 20 years, when he might have qualified for a pension, when a record of service was created to prove a man's entitlement to a pension. Just to be sure have had a look in the National Archives post 1853 service records and pension claims : http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/royal-navy-ratings-1853-1923/ but can find no trace of a John Nutman. You might also find this document helpful since it summarises much of what I've said here and more. If, however, as in your case he only served for 7 years, if this was time served prior to 1853, then you probably have the difficult task of finding a starting point as you need to know the name of at least one of the R.N. vessels in which he served during his seagoing career and hope that either the Muster or Pay Lists for this vessel survive for the period that your relative was on board. That said, I don't know if mention is made in his Merchant Service papers of any time spent serving on board an R.N. vessel, say as a previous ship or where he was discharge to ? Purely as a matter of interest am transcribing the movements etc., of RN vessels circa 1840-1845 at the present time and note that the Navy at Portsmouth and Plymouth send vessels quite regularly to Liverpool and Bristol and other West Coast ports, to recruit Merchant Service seamen for vessels commissioning at the South Coast ports mentioned, this being a period when there was a strong demand for seamen what with the Royal Navy being active in the Mediterranean, and on the coast and up the major rivers of China during the First China War, dare I say it, although rarely mentioned until recently, supporting the East India Company in its aims to sell opium to the locals !! Whilst not very positive advice hope it helps a little. Paul On Wed, 14 Oct 2015 00:26:29 -0400, mktgmaven2001 via <mariners@rootsweb.com> wrote: > >Hi, > >I am now looking for more for John Nutman Sr. Was not able to find a M&M Certificate on Ancestry. > >I think this is my John Nutman Sr. On Find My Past, there are some records for merchant seamen and the image says he served in the Royal Navy 7 years. How can I find out more? According to the record, he was living in Liverpool in 1845 which would be correct. > >Thanks, Kathleen > > > >First name(s) > >JOHN > >Last name >Nutman > >Age >- > >Birth year >1789 > >Birth day >12 > >Birth month >11 > >Birth place >Colchester > >Birth county >ESSEX > >Place >- > >Discharge number >- > >Identity certificate number >- > >Card type >- > >Date range >1845-1854 > >Series >BT113 > >Piece number >210 > >Record set >Merchant Navy Seamen > >Category >Education & work > >Subcategory >Merchant navy & maritime > >Collections from > >Great Britain > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html

Hi, I am now looking for more for John Nutman Sr. Was not able to find a M&M Certificate on Ancestry. I think this is my John Nutman Sr. On Find My Past, there are some records for merchant seamen and the image says he served in the Royal Navy 7 years. How can I find out more? According to the record, he was living in Liverpool in 1845 which would be correct. Thanks, Kathleen First name(s) JOHN Last name Nutman Age - Birth year 1789 Birth day 12 Birth month 11 Birth place Colchester Birth county ESSEX Place - Discharge number - Identity certificate number - Card type - Date range 1845-1854 Series BT113 Piece number 210 Record set Merchant Navy Seamen Category Education & work Subcategory Merchant navy & maritime Collections from Great Britain

Yes, Kathleen, he did die at sea 14 Dec. 1857. I had to download it again to double check. Please forget thinking about "Masters" and "Mates". When a man sat a higher exam, he got a higher certificate, but the certificate number stayed the same. In bad times when there were too many masters chasing positions on too few ships, it was not unusual for a certificated master to take a job as a mate. What matters here is the certificate *number*. So you start at the beginning and check every possibility. Your man is image 74 of pdf 2 of BT 124/7. It's noted there that he died at sea so there is no point in looking for him in the other possible subfiles namely BT 124/8 and BT 124/3. That's all. Regards,Adi   From: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com> To: mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca; mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove I think I am understandably confused... Under Captains (which I believe him to be based on his Ancestry M&M certificate), for BT 124/7 the range was too high to include 46.200 (see below)BT 124/7 1850 - 1860 BT 124. Recorded Service: 1851 - 1860 Certificate Numbers: 43000 - 46999 So should I be looking under Mates? (I note that at various times John Nutman was both but his service record was listed under Mates, maybe because that was his last official status). Should we always check both Captains and Mates, because after this I will have others to look up as well (e.g., WIlliam Reed's 2 sons who have M&M certificates though for later years like the 1860s/70s) If William Reed did not die at sea, then we definitely have intrigue. He was supposed to have died at sea Dec 14, 1857.  I have a copy of his will, proved April, 1958 with my 3rd GR GM as executrix/inheritor of  an estate worth ‎£450 and he has a marker in Ilfracombe, Devon in Trinity Church cemetery stating that he died at sea on the schooner Volunteer on the date above... Thanks so much for virtually holding my hand through this process, Kathleen   -----Original Message----- From: Mme_N_Carmichael <mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca> To: mktgmaven2001 <mktgmaven2001@aol.com>; mariners <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tue, Oct 13, 2015 12:03 pm Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove P.S. Oops. No, apparently didn't die at sea. Apologies. Regards,Adi   From: Mme_N_Carmichael <mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca> To: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com>; "mariners@rootsweb.com" <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 2:41 PM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove Hello Kathleen, Erm ... I think that you did not look in chronological order. I also looked him up to make sure that I was giving instructions in the correct sequence. Yes, he *is* in the second pdf of BT 124/7 at the top of a page. The information in the columns up to 1856 are in code, after that he is shown as being on VOLUNTEER. He also died at sea. Have another go, lass. Regards,Adi   From: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com> To: mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca; mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove Hi Adi, Okay, I think I understand how it works now, thank you. Unfortunately, the certificate number entries jumped from 46.198 to 46.201 so William Reed's is not listed in the service record for some reason. I double checked his number 46.200 on Ancestry on the actual M&M certificate and it's correct.  Kathleen 

P.S. Oops. No, apparently didn't die at sea. Apologies. Regards,Adi   From: Mme_N_Carmichael <mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca> To: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com>; "mariners@rootsweb.com" <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 2:41 PM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove Hello Kathleen, Erm ... I think that you did not look in chronological order. I also looked him up to make sure that I was giving instructions in the correct sequence. Yes, he *is* in the second pdf of BT 124/7 at the top of a page. The information in the columns up to 1856 are in code, after that he is shown as being on VOLUNTEER. He also died at sea. Have another go, lass. Regards,Adi   From: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com> To: mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca; mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove Hi Adi, Okay, I think I understand how it works now, thank you. Unfortunately, the certificate number entries jumped from 46.198 to 46.201 so William Reed's is not listed in the service record for some reason. I double checked his number 46.200 on Ancestry on the actual M&M certificate and it's correct.  Kathleen 

Hello Kathleen, Erm ... I think that you did not look in chronological order. I also looked him up to make sure that I was giving instructions in the correct sequence. Yes, he *is* in the second pdf of BT 124/7 at the top of a page. The information in the columns up to 1856 are in code, after that he is shown as being on VOLUNTEER. He also died at sea. Have another go, lass. Regards,Adi   From: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com> To: mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca; mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove Hi Adi, Okay, I think I understand how it works now, thank you. Unfortunately, the certificate number entries jumped from 46.198 to 46.201 so William Reed's is not listed in the service record for some reason. I double checked his number 46.200 on Ancestry on the actual M&M certificate and it's correct.  Kathleen 

Hello Kathleen, No, the people are not listed alphabetically. The entries are in numerical order of certificate. So, you start with the chronological table in my archived post and pick out which subfiles your William Reed *could* be in. That gives you 3 possible subfiles. Then you request to see the *earliest* one which is BT 124/7. BT 124/7 consists of 2 pdf's. The first one has 338 images and the second one has 176 images. Look immediately at the first image in the second pdf. Aha! The first entry in the second pdf is #45, 640 which tells you that the one you want will be in that second pdf and you don't need to even bother looking in the first one. Start hopscotching through the images until you get to the certificate numbered 46,200 and depending on the information you find there, you may or may not need to look at the other two possible subfiles. N.B. You will *not be able to interpret* the notations in the columns until you reach the column headed "1856". None of us can. It's an arcane code based on port numbers and ship rotation numbers. Please do not write questioning those; we cannot help there. My other remarks were about subscribing to FindMyPast. I don't have a sub either but I did a quick search for you there and came up with a probable hit for you. Regards,Adi   From: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com> To: mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca; mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 5:09 AM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove My confidence is up a little now to be able find my William Reed as I did just find John Nutman's entry in the BT124 pdf on the National Archive site as your posts/link guided me. Should I use the Captains version for William Reed, not the Mates? Are the people all listed alphabetically in the pdf and then I use the Certificate number to pinpoint which William Reed is mine if there is more than one? Searching by vessel name is a very good tip as well.

Okay, I have turned my brain on, and I transposed the numbers I was looking for, sorry... -----Original Message----- From: mktgmaven2001 <mktgmaven2001@aol.com> To: mme_n_carmichael <mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca>; mariners <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tue, Oct 13, 2015 12:24 pm Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove I think I am understandably confused... Under Captains (which I believe him to be based on his Ancestry M&M certificate), for BT 124/7 the range was too high to include 46.200 (see below) BT 124/7 1850 - 1860 BT 124. Recorded Service: 1851 - 1860 Certificate Numbers: 43000 - 46999 So should I be looking under Mates? (I note that at various times John Nutman was both but his service record was listed under Mates, maybe because that was his last official status). Should we always check both Captains and Mates, because after this I will have others to look up as well (e.g., WIlliam Reed's 2 sons who have M&M certificates though for later years like the 1860s/70s) If William Reed did not die at sea, then we definitely have intrigue. He was supposed to have died at sea Dec 14, 1857. I have a copy of his will, proved April, 1958 with my 3rd GR GM as executrix/inheritor of an estate worth ‎£450 and he has a marker in Ilfracombe, Devon in Trinity Church cemetery stating that he died at sea on the schooner Volunteer on the date above... Thanks so much for virtually holding my hand through this process, Kathleen -----Original Message----- From: Mme_N_Carmichael <mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca> To: mktgmaven2001 <mktgmaven2001@aol.com>; mariners <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tue, Oct 13, 2015 12:03 pm Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove P.S. Oops. No, apparently didn't die at sea. Apologies. Regards, Adi From: Mme_N_Carmichael <mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca> To: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com>; "mariners@rootsweb.com" <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 2:41 PM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove Hello Kathleen, Erm ... I think that you did not look in chronological order. I also looked him up to make sure that I was giving instructions in the correct sequence. Yes, he *is* in the second pdf of BT 124/7 at the top of a page. The information in the columns up to 1856 are in code, after that he is shown as being on VOLUNTEER. He also died at sea. Have another go, lass. Regards, Adi From: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com> To: mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca; mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove Hi Adi, Okay, I think I understand how it works now, thank you. Unfortunately, the certificate number entries jumped from 46.198 to 46.201 so William Reed's is not listed in the service record for some reason. I double checked his number 46.200 on Ancestry on the actual M&M certificate and it's correct. Kathleen

I think I am understandably confused... Under Captains (which I believe him to be based on his Ancestry M&M certificate), for BT 124/7 the range was too high to include 46.200 (see below) BT 124/7 1850 - 1860 BT 124. Recorded Service: 1851 - 1860 Certificate Numbers: 43000 - 46999 So should I be looking under Mates? (I note that at various times John Nutman was both but his service record was listed under Mates, maybe because that was his last official status). Should we always check both Captains and Mates, because after this I will have others to look up as well (e.g., WIlliam Reed's 2 sons who have M&M certificates though for later years like the 1860s/70s) If William Reed did not die at sea, then we definitely have intrigue. He was supposed to have died at sea Dec 14, 1857. I have a copy of his will, proved April, 1958 with my 3rd GR GM as executrix/inheritor of an estate worth ‎£450 and he has a marker in Ilfracombe, Devon in Trinity Church cemetery stating that he died at sea on the schooner Volunteer on the date above... Thanks so much for virtually holding my hand through this process, Kathleen -----Original Message----- From: Mme_N_Carmichael <mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca> To: mktgmaven2001 <mktgmaven2001@aol.com>; mariners <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tue, Oct 13, 2015 12:03 pm Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove P.S. Oops. No, apparently didn't die at sea. Apologies. Regards, Adi From: Mme_N_Carmichael <mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca> To: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com>; "mariners@rootsweb.com" <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 2:41 PM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove Hello Kathleen, Erm ... I think that you did not look in chronological order. I also looked him up to make sure that I was giving instructions in the correct sequence. Yes, he *is* in the second pdf of BT 124/7 at the top of a page. The information in the columns up to 1856 are in code, after that he is shown as being on VOLUNTEER. He also died at sea. Have another go, lass. Regards, Adi From: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com> To: mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca; mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove Hi Adi, Okay, I think I understand how it works now, thank you. Unfortunately, the certificate number entries jumped from 46.198 to 46.201 so William Reed's is not listed in the service record for some reason. I double checked his number 46.200 on Ancestry on the actual M&M certificate and it's correct. Kathleen

Hi Adi, Okay, I think I understand how it works now, thank you. Unfortunately, the certificate number entries jumped from 46.198 to 46.201 so William Reed's is not listed in the service record for some reason. I double checked his number 46.200 on Ancestry on the actual M&M certificate and it's correct. Kathleen -----Original Message----- From: Mme_N_Carmichael <mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca> To: mktgmaven2001 <mktgmaven2001@aol.com>; mariners <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tue, Oct 13, 2015 9:21 am Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove Hello Kathleen, No, the people are not listed alphabetically. The entries are in numerical order of certificate. So, you start with the chronological table in my archived post and pick out which subfiles your William Reed *could* be in. That gives you 3 possible subfiles. Then you request to see the *earliest* one which is BT 124/7. BT 124/7 consists of 2 pdf's. The first one has 338 images and the second one has 176 images. Look immediately at the first image in the second pdf. Aha! The first entry in the second pdf is #45, 640 which tells you that the one you want will be in that second pdf and you don't need to even bother looking in the first one. Start hopscotching through the images until you get to the certificate numbered 46,200 and depending on the information you find there, you may or may not need to look at the other two possible subfiles. N.B. You will *not be able to interpret* the notations in the columns until you reach the column headed "1856". None of us can. It's an arcane code based on port numbers and ship rotation numbers. Please do not write questioning those; we cannot help there. My other remarks were about subscribing to FindMyPast. I don't have a sub either but I did a quick search for you there and came up with a probable hit for you. Regards, Adi From: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com> To: mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca; mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 5:09 AM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove My confidence is up a little now to be able find my William Reed as I did just find John Nutman's entry in the BT124 pdf on the National Archive site as your posts/link guided me. Should I use the Captains version for William Reed, not the Mates? Are the people all listed alphabetically in the pdf and then I use the Certificate number to pinpoint which William Reed is mine if there is more than one? Searching by vessel name is a very good tip as well.

> > Hello from Australia > > Can I have advice on searching for maritime apprentices from Sunderland, please. > > I have found my man in the National Archives BT 98/ series on the ship FRIENDS for 1838/1841 but would to find more particularly as he was from Kent, never Sunderland. > > regards > > John Webster

You can search by vessel name as well and the name that is woefully transcribed as "Jno Nutuan" under vessel name = Africa and death year = 1863 looks like a good reason to buy some pay-as-you-go credits at FindMyPast. Regards,Adi   From: Mme_N_Carmichael <mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca> To: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com>; "mariners@rootsweb.com" <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 4:44 AM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove You don't need a subscription to search - you only need one to read the entry if you get a good hit. (Smile) Search first, then decide if you need to subscribe. Regards,Adi     From: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com> To: mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca; mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 4:20 AM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove   Oh thank you so much!  I did the free weekend Find My Past offered a couple weeks ago but I can pay a subscription for a month to check thedeaths at sea ...................  

You don't need a subscription to search - you only need one to read the entry if you get a good hit. (Smile) Search first, then decide if you need to subscribe. Regards,Adi   From: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com> To: mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca; mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 4:20 AM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove Oh thank you so much!  I did the free weekend Find My Past offered a couple weeks ago but I can pay a subscription for a month to check thedeaths at sea ...................

Well, no, Kathleen, but I'll point you in the direction of looking it up yourself. Far better for you to personally see the image of  the actual document than to just take my word for it, Here's the link to my archived post on the subject:http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/MARINERS/2013-02/1360080896 Choose which subfiles may contain Wm. Reed's certificate number and download them. Bob's your Uncle. Regards,Adi   From: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com> To: mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca; mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 4:20 AM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove Oh thank you so much!  I did the free weekend Find My Past offered a couple weeks ago but I can pay a subscription for a month to check thedeaths at sea. Can you please check all my 3rd GR GF's details with his certificate number?  | Name: | William Reed | | Estimated Age: | 45 | | Birth Date: | 6 Jul 1806 | | Issue Date: | 1 Jan 1851 | | Issue Port: | London | | Certificate Number: | 46.200 |    -----Original Message----- From: Mme_N_Carmichael <mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca> To: mktgmaven2001 <mktgmaven2001@aol.com>; mariners <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tue, Oct 13, 2015 1:09 am Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove Hello again Kathleen, Ah - so much easier with the Certificate Number. Yes, he was on RINGDOVE. Yes, he died in Calcutta 12 August 1863. He was certified as Mate in London on 27 January 1851.  He also held Pilotage Certificate #354,359. The source for this information is The National Archives file BT 124/21 which is a free download of 2 pdf's. You'll find him in pdf 1, image #236 of 328, bottom of the page. You'll get some other vessel names there for him. In 1857 and 1859 he was captain on RINGDOVE (which coincidentally had ON 1857). In 1860, he appears to have been mate on the SIR ALLAN MACNAB of Liverpool, ON 32,465 and also in 1861. In 1862, he was mate on the AFRICA of Liverpool, ON 16,213. At least that is how I decipher the scrawls. Is it possible that after he was arrested in that 1858 court case that his Master's certificate was suspended? FindMyPast has the "Deaths at Sea" files from TNA. Have you looked there? Regards,Adi   From: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com> To: mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca; mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:04 AM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove Hi Adi,  | Name | John Nutman | | Estimated Age | 29 | | Birth Date | 11 Apr 1828 | | Birth Place | Liverpool, Lancashire | | Issue Date | 27 Jan 1857 | | Issue Port | London | | Certificate Number | 64.716 |    -----Original Message----- From: Mme_N_Carmichael <mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca> To: mktgmaven2001 <mktgmaven2001@aol.com>; mariners <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2015 7:38 pm Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove You are most welcome Kathleen, but ... erm ... you have so far omitted to give us a most important piece of information - his certificate number.What is it please?  He, unfortunately, does not appear in Lloyd's Captains Registers at London Metropolitan Archives. I did look for him in the index here:http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/capintro.htm Regards,Adi   From: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com> To: mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca; mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove Adi, This reply was very helpful, thank you! It will save me time and money in not ordering those films, which if they are thesame as on FMP. Those I saw a couple of weeks ago and they were not super informative. Also the article you foundthat mentions the parentage of Capt John Nutman of the Ringdove, pretty much rules him out as my John Nutman Jr. as far as I can tell. Given the content of the articles I have seen about the Master of the Ringdove, can't say I am too sad about that (smile). My John Nutman Jr. born 1828 and a Mariner, could still be the John Nutman b. 1828 that died in Calcutta, so will keep trying that angle.His Masters & Mates certificate from 1851 lists him born in Liverpool, but I did find that baptismal record in Pembrokeshire, Wales,which looks like an excellent match. I know the one listed on the M&M certificate is mine. As I said, he lists my 3rd GR GF's (William Reed) ship The Volunteer and they were brothers-in-law. Here is the detail of the Dallas Herald article Dallas Herald. (Dallas, Tex.), Vol. 5, No. 14, Ed. 1 Saturday, August 23, 1856)that was not included in the link I posted about the return of the runaway slaves. Kathleen

Hello again Kathleen, Ah - so much easier with the Certificate Number. Yes, he was on RINGDOVE. Yes, he died in Calcutta 12 August 1863. He was certified as Mate in London on 27 January 1851.  He also held Pilotage Certificate #354,359. The source for this information is The National Archives file BT 124/21 which is a free download of 2 pdf's. You'll find him in pdf 1, image #236 of 328, bottom of the page. You'll get some other vessel names there for him. In 1857 and 1859 he was captain on RINGDOVE (which coincidentally had ON 1857). In 1860, he appears to have been mate on the SIR ALLAN MACNAB of Liverpool, ON 32,465 and also in 1861. In 1862, he was mate on the AFRICA of Liverpool, ON 16,213. At least that is how I decipher the scrawls. Is it possible that after he was arrested in that 1858 court case that his Master's certificate was suspended? FindMyPast has the "Deaths at Sea" files from TNA. Have you looked there? Regards,Adi   From: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com> To: mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca; mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:04 AM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove Hi Adi,  | Name | John Nutman | | Estimated Age | 29 | | Birth Date | 11 Apr 1828 | | Birth Place | Liverpool, Lancashire | | Issue Date | 27 Jan 1857 | | Issue Port | London | | Certificate Number | 64.716 |    -----Original Message----- From: Mme_N_Carmichael <mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca> To: mktgmaven2001 <mktgmaven2001@aol.com>; mariners <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2015 7:38 pm Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove You are most welcome Kathleen, but ... erm ... you have so far omitted to give us a most important piece of information - his certificate number.What is it please?  He, unfortunately, does not appear in Lloyd's Captains Registers at London Metropolitan Archives. I did look for him in the index here:http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/capintro.htm Regards,Adi   From: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com> To: mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca; mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove Adi, This reply was very helpful, thank you! It will save me time and money in not ordering those films, which if they are thesame as on FMP. Those I saw a couple of weeks ago and they were not super informative. Also the article you foundthat mentions the parentage of Capt John Nutman of the Ringdove, pretty much rules him out as my John Nutman Jr. as far as I can tell. Given the content of the articles I have seen about the Master of the Ringdove, can't say I am too sad about that (smile). My John Nutman Jr. born 1828 and a Mariner, could still be the John Nutman b. 1828 that died in Calcutta, so will keep trying that angle.His Masters & Mates certificate from 1851 lists him born in Liverpool, but I did find that baptismal record in Pembrokeshire, Wales,which looks like an excellent match. I know the one listed on the M&M certificate is mine. As I said, he lists my 3rd GR GF's (William Reed) ship The Volunteer and they were brothers-in-law. Here is the detail of the Dallas Herald article Dallas Herald. (Dallas, Tex.), Vol. 5, No. 14, Ed. 1 Saturday, August 23, 1856)that was not included in the link I posted about the return of the runaway slaves. Kathleen

My confidence is up a little now to be able find my William Reed as I did just find John Nutman's entry in the BT124 pdf on the National Archive site as your posts/link guided me. Should I use the Captains version for William Reed, not the Mates? Are the people all listed alphabetically in the pdf and then I use the Certificate number to pinpoint which William Reed is mine if there is more than one? Searching by vessel name is a very good tip as well. -----Original Message----- From: Mme_N_Carmichael <mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca> To: mktgmaven2001 <mktgmaven2001@aol.com>; mariners <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tue, Oct 13, 2015 1:57 am Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove You can search by vessel name as well and the name that is woefully transcribed as "Jno Nutuan" under vessel name = Africa and death year = 1863 looks like a good reason to buy some pay-as-you-go credits at FindMyPast. Regards, Adi From: Mme_N_Carmichael <mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca> To: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com>; "mariners@rootsweb.com" <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 4:44 AM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove You don't need a subscription to search - you only need one to read the entry if you get a good hit. (Smile) Search first, then decide if you need to subscribe. Regards, Adi From: "mktgmaven2001@aol.com" <mktgmaven2001@aol.com> To: mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca; mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 4:20 AM Subject: Re: [MAR] MARINERS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 170 - Nutman/Ringdove Oh thank you so much! I did the free weekend Find My Past offered a couple weeks ago but I can pay a subscription for a month to check the deaths at sea ...................