Hi Harold The CLIP project have transcribed records from the Appropriation Books which are available from the Clip website, this is the only database with complete coverage of British registered vessels with official numbers from 1 to 200,000 and covering years 1855 to the 1950s. http://www.crewlist.org.uk/data/vesselsalpha.php Mick Mariners List ----- Original Message ----- From: Hwabz@aol.com To: mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:18 AM Subject: [MAR] Deciphering ship official numbers

Hi ~ I'm looking at xerox copies of Lloyd's Captains Registers where I've found two ships of interest with official numbers (ONs) that are difficult to decipher. EXPRESS - ON looks like 44633 STERLING - ON looks like ?0493 I've checked the Ship Information Database but couldn't find an Express or Sterling there with similar looking ONs. Are there any other online resources that might help me confirm the ONs of these ships? Thanks very much, Harold

Hello All I researching my ancestor WILLIAM ALEXANDER WILSON / SS Benington ~ information I have SS BENINGTON ~ built South Shields 1890~ iron length 95.0 Breadth 20.4 depth 10 gross ton 131 OWNERS ~ The Boston Deep Sea Fishing & Ice Co.Lim 1901 South Shields Census ~ William A. Wilson (at home with his parents) ~ Occupation " Steam Engineer" ~ Inscription on Wilson Family Headstone at South Shields WILLIAM Alexander WILSON age 29 ~ Lost at Sea, SS BENINGTON 30.12.1904 off Rotterdam I will be very grateful if anyone can help me find out more about William A. Wilson, ship Benington his life at sea, how he died etc. ... Thank you Thelma

Paul, Yoiu are right of course. I've just looked at the original and it is definitely MULCTS - the cause of the error I do not know, because I looked up the word much earlier and already knew what it meant. I suspect my MS auto-spell checker had a hand in it if it was not entirely the culprit! Bernard de Neumann --- On Wed, 11/5/11, Paul Benyon <pbenyon@pbenyon.plus.com> wrote: > From: Paul Benyon <pbenyon@pbenyon.plus.com> > Subject: Re: [MAR] Greenwich Royal Hospital School > To: "Bernard de Neumann" <de.Neumann@btinternet.com>, "Patrick" <pusserhill@ntlworld.com> > Date: Wednesday, 11 May, 2011, 13:25 > > The pennies are dropping slowly this today.  It occurs > to me that a > Commanding Officer could also impose a mulct of one day's > pay if a man > returned on board drunk. > > Paul > > On Wed, 11 May 2011 12:23:34 +0100, Paul Benyon > <pbenyon@pbenyon.plus.com> > wrote: > > >On Wed, 11 May 2011 11:53:29 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time), > "Bernard de > >Neumann" <de.Neumann@btinternet.com> > wrote: > > > >>mullets > > > >Morning Bernard and Patrick, > > > >I have a feeling that this word should probably be > mulcts ?  Was in > >use in my time to describe stoppages of pay from wages > for absence > >etc. > > > >Paul > >50° 33' N, 2° 26' W > >http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html > 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W > http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html >

Patrick, The situation is as follows, and it is reinforced by the fact that the school celebrated its 250th anniversary in 1962! The handwritten "definitive history of the school" was written by John Livingstone Jay, but this has become "lost". Charles Dilkes Loveless, Jay's successor at Greenwich wrote a "brief history partially based upon Jay's work, and this is in the Admiralty Library, Portsmouth. Loveless's history states as follows: 1712 This school, which was formerly called The Charity School of the Royal Hospital at Greenwich, was first established in 1712, the number of boys then being 10. Although the original Commission of King William III, in 1695 appropriated Greenwich Hospital for the reception of children as well as seamen and their widows, there is no record to show that such children were introduced at the formation of the establishment. 1715 The Board of Directors, at the suggestion of Admiral Lord Aylmer, then Governor of Greenwich Hospital, ordered two thirds, and afterwards three fourths, of the money received for showing the painted hall, chapel, etc, should be employed in clothing and educating 12 of the poor children of the pensioners and nurses. 1716 The Board of Directors with the consent of the General Court, afterwards added to the above-mentioned fund the cheques, mullets, and stoppages received from the pensioners. I shall be going to the National Archives soon to read the early minute books of GH in the near future, and all of my findings will appear in my history of the school. Bernard de Neumann -------Original Message------- From: Patrick Date: 05/11/11 10:27:02 To: Mariners Rootsweb Subject: [MAR] Greenwich Royal Hospital School Hello Everyone! I have conflicting dates concerning the establishment of a school at Greenwich. The two main contenders are 1712 and 1715. Both from reliable sources and both supported depending where you look and who you listen to! Is there an absolute definite or are these dates ‘a best estimate’ given time for an ‘informal let’s see if it works’ project gaining official approval? Regards, Patrick. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Everyone! I have conflicting dates concerning the establishment of a school at Greenwich. The two main contenders are 1712 and 1715. Both from reliable sources and both supported depending where you look and who you listen to! Is there an absolute definite or are these dates ‘a best estimate’ given time for an ‘informal let’s see if it works’ project gaining official approval? Regards, Patrick.

Hello to Piers, Lynne and Marg, An extremely big thank you to the three of you for your replies. Firstly Piers, you have given me hope in all of this, and I will be following up your web sites today. At least I now know that he was there for longer "than 5 minutes". I was wondering if the double entries in 1867 may have been that he was actually doing two jobs anyway. But I guess that depends on me finding if there was in fact 2 H Johnsons there at the same time. But thank you for all your effort and comments. I think that I have bashed my head against the well known brick wall for so long, that I have been unable to see the woods for the trees!! To Lynne, I will follow up on the Maritime Museum and make an appointment to go and see what records they may have. Thank you. To Marg, thank you for finding Robert - I do not have access to findmypast, but will send for that certificate, and never know what it might tell me he may well have been a brother that I do not know about. So, much to do today. Thank you all once again Jenni Woolard in a very cold southern highlands

Hello again Mick, Very much appreciated, possibly the book reference to 'IVESTON' is in error. I shall work on this listing. Thank you Rod At 23:57 10/05/2011, you wrote: >The following is a list of Vessels owned by W.Dickinson & Co, none of >these had a name which resembled Iveston or at least none that I could find. > >62358 1870 / 1892 North Tyne, Sold >62397 1871 / 1893 Redewater, Lost >80534 1879 / 1883 William Dickinson, Lost >88746 1883 / 1915 Knarwater, Sold >88772 1884 / 1899 Sir William Armstrong, Sold >95482 1888 / 1891 Lux,Lost (Burnt) >143123 1919 / 1939 Blackhill, Mined >143033 1919 / 1938 Consett, Sold >145734 1928 / 1936 Ebchester, Sold >143063 1929 / 1934 Rudchester, Sold >148092 1937 / 1947 Garesfield, Lost >148098 1937 / 1942 Knitsley, Torpedoed >148110 1937 / 1943 Leadgate, Torpedoed ?. RSVP. Please support the St.George Foundation: www.adecentlife.org

I wrote last week as below and have received some useful information not posted to MAR, which I would like to summarise, and see if others can help with the outstanding questions. I have learnt that in principal anything over 15tons with a deck should be registered, and boats with similar names can be sorted with their numbers and the use of the 'crewlist' site. Drowned seamen can probably found with others died at sea on British ships at National Archives / BMD Registers / BT159 Or Find My Past. There are two Samuel Mitchell, Master died at sea around 1881 / 1882. 'Mine' seems to have died with all the crew aboard the <Shells of the Ocean> in 1882. To complicate matters, there seems to have been two <Shells of the Ocean> ; one in Grimsby and one in Lowestoft. 'Mine' is the Lowestoft boat. The other - the Grimsby boat, seems to have come to grief, stranded, at Rattry Head in 1888. So, not a lucky name. I have tried googling it, but get bogged down in periwinkles and conch shells. If SKS has access to the Norfolk/Suffolk/East Anglian newspapers I would love to know what happened. Deaths are recorded on 29 April 1882. Irene> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Irene Read > To: Mary Herbert > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 12:51 PM > Subject: Samuel Mitchell, drowned seaman , 1881 > > > My ancestor, Samuel Mitchell is found in the 1881 census as the master of the 'Leading Star' at Lowestoft, on board the ship / boat on the night of April 3rd with four crew members: a mate, two AB seamen and a 14-year-old cook. > > In July 1881, we have the baptism of a Samuel William Mitchell at Stockton, Norfolk ; the son of Samuel and Emma Mitchell ; which has a note "the father lately drowned at sea". > > I cannot find a burial record for Norfolk or Suffolk, which is not suprising perhaps, if he was lost overboard. However, I cannot find a death registered either. Does anyone know the usual procedure in these horribly common C19th fishing tragedies? Would the widow wait 7years for a presumption of death? Can you have a coroner's inquest without a body? There is a Board of Trade Inquiry record of Grimsby fishing deaths through this period on line: was this a national enquiry and are the records at Kew or elsewhere, or even on-line? > > I assume the Leading Star, with a crew of 4+1 idler was something small, like a smack. Are there records for ships/boats that small? Would the master have any registered qualification? > > A lot of questions, I am afraid, but I would be grateful for any information or even hints as to where to look. > > > > Irene > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

----- Original Message ----- From: "MargM" <genknut@exemail.com.au> To: "jennifer woolard" <jgwoolard@hotmail.com>; <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [MAR] pilots in Swatow, China > >> > >> Hi Jennifer > > >> I am hoping that there is someone who may be able to point me in the >> right >> direction with this brick wall that I have. >> >> My great grandmother and her sister were born (1866 and 1868) in Double >> Island Swatow. Their father was a pilot there. His name was Henry >> Johnson, In Findmypasts Consular births I just found a Robert JOHNSON b Swatow , China 1860-65 Vol 3 p 469 ????? Just have to look sometimes.................. Bye MargM Beautiful NSW Central Coast Australia

Hi, Thanks for the reply and subsequent questions. I know that they came to NSW - sorry I omitted to put that in my enquiry. My great grandparents married in Christ Church, Sydney, and her sister married a couple of years later. Parents were not given as deceased on the two marriages, and neither were witnesses. The father's occupation was not given on either although both names were given. I have looked at shipping - nothing there. On asking my father and most of his cousins, none of them could recall knowing them/of them. My greatgrandmother died in 1919, and my grandmother never spoke of her grandparents to me. I had thought about my gggrandmother being a local, and that brings up the same questions. Consular records are very sketchy from Swatow, but I am going to reorder a film from there, but last time I looked I did not find any of my names, but it is worth another look - second time lucky!! There are lots of Henry Johnson's dying in the timeframe that I am looking at, in NSW, and it would appear it will be a matter of trawling through the death certificates one by one. Ho hum!! But I would still like to find out something of his life in Swatow. Do you happen to know what records the Maritime Museum may have for the 1880's for either pilots or mariners in Sydney? Thanks Jennifer Woolard > From: genknut@exemail.com.au > To: jgwoolard@hotmail.com; mariners@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [MAR] pilots in Swatow, China > Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 14:56:36 +1000 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jennifer woolard" <jgwoolard@hotmail.com> > To: <mariners@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 2:10 PM > Subject: [MAR] pilots in Swatow, China > > > > > Hi Jennifer > > > > I am hoping that there is someone who may be able to point me in the right > > direction with this brick wall that I have. > > > > My great grandmother and her sister were born (1866 and 1868) in Double > > Island Swatow. Their father was a pilot there. His name was Henry > > Johnson, and I do not know where to find information on him. I do not > > know if he worked for a private shipping company or the English > > Government. Are there any records that someone knows about and where they > > are? > > > > They migrated to Australia prior to 1886 > > How do you know that ??? > > To which State ????? > > Then they died here ???? > > > but nothing in known of them after this. > > > Why is that when you live here ???????? > > > Their names suggest that they were most definately not Chinese, and my > great grandmother certainly does not appear to >have any Chinese blood in > her. > > gg gmother might have been a local ???? > > > > > Jenni Woolard in Australia > > > > > Bye > MargM > Beautiful NSW Central Coast > Australia >

----- Original Message ----- From: "jennifer woolard" <jgwoolard@hotmail.com> To: <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 2:10 PM Subject: [MAR] pilots in Swatow, China > Hi Jennifer > I am hoping that there is someone who may be able to point me in the right > direction with this brick wall that I have. > > My great grandmother and her sister were born (1866 and 1868) in Double > Island Swatow. Their father was a pilot there. His name was Henry > Johnson, and I do not know where to find information on him. I do not > know if he worked for a private shipping company or the English > Government. Are there any records that someone knows about and where they > are? > > They migrated to Australia prior to 1886 How do you know that ??? To which State ????? Then they died here ???? > but nothing in known of them after this. Why is that when you live here ???????? Their names suggest that they were most definately not Chinese, and my great grandmother certainly does not appear to >have any Chinese blood in her. gg gmother might have been a local ???? > > Jenni Woolard in Australia Bye MargM Beautiful NSW Central Coast Australia

Hello Listers, I am hoping that there is someone who may be able to point me in the right direction with this brick wall that I have. My great grandmother and her sister were born (1866 and 1868) in Double Island Swatow. Their father was a pilot there. His name was Henry Johnson, and I do not know where to find information on him. I do not know if he worked for a private shipping company or the English Government. Are there any records that someone knows about and where they are? They migrated to Australia prior to 1886, but nothing in known of them after this. Their names suggest that they were most definately not Chinese, and my great grandmother certainly does not appear to have any Chinese blood in her. Jenni Woolard in Australia

The 1867 Directory DOES list him as a pilot at Swatow - the entries are not all in alphabetical order and I didn't realise I needed to keep looking through the Johnsons. This makes much more sense than that he should suddenly become a clerk. However it means there were TWO H Johnsons around in China by 1867!

An interesting situation. When I started this reply I don't think I could give any very authoritative answer, just some thoughts which occurred to me. However, in Googling a bit I've struck pay dirt! Never overlook the power of Google. "Swatow Cemetery" brought up http://www.bristol.ac.uk/history/customs/ancestors/talbot.pdf - it doesn't list your people but it is quite interesting, and it led me to the site it comes from - http://www.bris.ac.uk/history/customs/ancestors/ which is a site for China Coast Family history. There is a burials search facility on the site but its not working for me! More interestingly, there are links to a load of directories. The numbers of Europeans in China in the early days was so small that most of them are listed by name.... I don't think I'd ever heard of Swatow, but it seems to have been opened to foreign trade in 1860 following the Second Opium War though there seem to have been Europeans there since 1842. I started with a Complete Guide to the open ports of China and Japan for 1867 which was slap in the middle of the time you know he was there http://tinyurl.com/3t986el . It has a great description of the place (turn to the contents page and click on the link to Swatow) and tells you just about everything you could wish to know about all sorts of aspects of life there. The foreign community was "very small", and included pilots who lived in a separate "colony". The 1867 directory states that pilots were supervised by a Board whose make-up is stated. Maybe their records exist somewhere. In order to be a pilot, Henry Johnson would have had to have had very good knowledge of the approaches to the port and any rocks shoals and currents therein which could only have been gained by experience. He would also have had to have been a sufficiently experienced sailor to be able to handle vessels of all sizes. Therefore, it is likely that he arrived at the port in the early 1860s, maybe earlier, with a background as a sailor, possibly having served on vessels in Chinese waters for some time before that, maybe as mate although he could have been qualified as a master. This gives us few clues as to his age: he may have been an older man, with little prospect of a command of his own, who decided to settle down, or a comparatively young one who seized an opportunity. According to the article above, Swatow in 1860 was little more than a village so it might have appealed more to the optimism of youth! Unfortunately for your research purposes, the 1860s were very early days of certifications for masters and mates and if we assume that he had some experience already, it may be that he never took any nautical exams. There are several Henry Johnsons in the Index to Lloyd's Captains registers at http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/capsJ.pdf but none particularly caught my eye. However, it would be worth your having a look. Many of the possible candidates can be excluded as their dates don't fit. The other directories at https://www.bris.ac.uk/history/customs/ancestors/directories.html yielded several results - I didn't use the search but went through them manually. H Johnson is shown in an 1862 directory as a "godown [ie warehouse] keeper" for Dent & Co at Swatow. In 1861 he was a "tidewaiter" (apparently a customs officer who boarded and inspected incoming ships) for "Imp. Mar. Cus [the Chinese Imperial Maritime Customs see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Maritime_Customs_Service ] at C.ton [Canton]". He is NOT listed there in 1859 and I couldn't see him anywhere else - though it might be worth your going through that volume more slowly and carefully than I have done. In 1867, the only H Johnson listed is a clerk in the Purveyors Department at Hong Kong. H Johnson, pilot, Swatow, is named in a directory for 1872 at http://www.bris.ac.uk/history/customs/ancestors/1872chroniclechina.pdf . He is not listed at Swatow in the 1877 edition. I didn't look for him in any of the other cities - there is no general index, you have to go through port by port. As I understand it, the only other evidence you have as to his movements after 1868 is that your G-GM and her sister were in Australia by 1886, and that he was dead by then. So he may not have moved to Australia himself. If he did, I think he would be less likely to have become a pilot because he wouldn't have been familiar with the waters, and he seems to have wanted to make a career for himself in China. He seems to have had a varied career in any case - customs officer, warehouse keeper, clerk, and pilot, at least! Have a bit of a look through the British overseas records at www.familyrelatives.com - you need to register (its free) in order to search. You will find consular marriages, deaths and births (annoyingly 1864-65 marriages isn't there), marine deaths, etc. There will presumably be British Consular records at Kew, though that is not much good to you unless you can get over here. At the same time, I would look for the girls (not the parents, who may have been dead by then) arriving in Australia during the period 1868-86. http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/ despite being titled "Mariners and Ships in Australian waters" really relates to NSW, but since there is a NSW connection here you have some chance of picking them up. You may need to go through all possible years and look at all vessels coming from China (the port of departure shown is likely to be the last call before Australia, so it could have been from any Chinese port). Hope this helps Cheers Piers -----Original Message----- From: mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jennifer woolard Sent: 10 May 2011 05:11 To: mariners@rootsweb.com Subject: [MAR] pilots in Swatow, China Hello Listers, I am hoping that there is someone who may be able to point me in the right direction with this brick wall that I have. My great grandmother and her sister were born (1866 and 1868) in Double Island Swatow. Their father was a pilot there. His name was Henry Johnson, and I do not know where to find information on him. I do not know if he worked for a private shipping company or the English Government. Are there any records that someone knows about and where they are? They migrated to Australia prior to 1886, but nothing in known of them after this. Their names suggest that they were most definately not Chinese, and my great grandmother certainly does not appear to have any Chinese blood in her. Jenni Woolard in Australia ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Rod The following is a list of Vessels owned by W.Dickinson & Co, none of these had a name which resembled Iveston or at least none that I could find. 62358 1870 / 1892 North Tyne, Sold 62397 1871 / 1893 Redewater, Lost 80534 1879 / 1883 William Dickinson, Lost 88746 1883 / 1915 Knarwater, Sold 88772 1884 / 1899 Sir William Armstrong, Sold 95482 1888 / 1891 Lux,Lost (Burnt) 143123 1919 / 1939 Blackhill, Mined 143033 1919 / 1938 Consett, Sold 145734 1928 / 1936 Ebchester, Sold 143063 1929 / 1934 Rudchester, Sold 148092 1937 / 1947 Garesfield, Lost 148098 1937 / 1942 Knitsley, Torpedoed 148110 1937 / 1943 Leadgate, Torpedoed ?. Mick O Rourke Mariners List ----- Original Message ----- From: Rod Clayburn To: Mick Cc: mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 8:02 AM Subject: Re: [MAR] Consett Iron and Steel Company vessels

Hello Mick, Appreciate the information, the only missing vessel that is mentioned in local history books is the ss.IVESTON? Maybe she never existed or changed name after the Minesweeper was given the same name? I looked through the MHA listings of Lloyds Registers which you mention are now up to 1920, but without success, so I may have to resort to hardback Lloyds Registers of later years. Looking at the ages of the other Consett Iron and Steel Co. vessels, 1910 to 1940 could cover any possible references. Many thanks Rod At 07:16 10/05/2011, mariners-request@rootsweb.com wrote: >Hi Rod >The other Garesfield never belonged to W. Dickinson, and the 148092 >Garesfield was only held for a short time in 1924 she was sold to the >Wexford SS Co. in the same year. The Mercantile Navy Lists for the 1920s >ar now available from the MHA which should hold most of the early ones . >http://collections.mun.ca/cdm4/description.php?phpReturn=browse.php&cisoroot=mha_mercant > >I will have a look at the others for you . > >Mick At 07:16 10/05/2011, you wrote: My first post on the Garfield was inaccurate I have corrected below. Garesfield Registered as Belle Marie in Newcastle 02/10/1924 Builder: Pickersgill at Southwick RSVP. Please support the St.George Foundation: www.adecentlife.org

Hi Rod My first post on the Garfield was inaccurate I have corrected below. Garesfield Registered as Belle Marie in Newcastle 02/10/1924 Builder: Pickersgill at Southwick Material Steel Dimensions : 279.2 X 40.6 and depth of hold 18.7 ( feet ) Tonnage : 1462n / 2513g 1 triple expansion engine, screw prop, speed 10 knots, NHP 263 Owner History 1919 Belle Marie, Rodney SS Co, Milburn House Newcastle-On-Tyne 1937 Garesfield, Consett Iron and Steel Company, 1947 Selskar, Wexford SS, Co 1950 Copthall, H.P.Marshall & Co 1950 Midgard, Poseidon Coal Import (German Company I think ) Wrecked Pasajes Entrance 14/04/1958 , wreck lies at 10 meters . Mick Mariners List ----- Original Message ----- From: Rod Clayburn To: mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 8:23 AM Subject: [MAR] Consett Iron and Steel Company vessels

Hello Ron, Appreciate that information. Many thanks Rod On 9 May 2011 11:23, Ron Mapplebeck <ron.mapplebeck1@virgin.net> wrote: > Rod, > > Full career and particulars of the LEADGATE detailed at: > http://www.teesbuiltships.co.uk/smiths/19161929/chilton1925.htm > No photo, unfortunately. > > Ron Mapplebeck (UK) > **** > On 09/05/2011 08:23, Rod Clayburn wrote: >> >> Mariners, >> >> Reference my previous on the Consett Iron and Steel Company vessels. >> >> I have it from books on the subject, that the following vessels were those >> operated by or on behalf of the company by W. Dickinson, 65 Quay, >> Newcastle. Which I understand to be the same as William Dickinson&  Co of >> Newcastle. Coal and coke exporters, iron ore merchants, ship and insurance >> brokers, forwarding, import and export agents? >> >> BLACKHILL 143123 c.1919 >> CONSETT 143033 c.1919 >> GARESFIELD 148092 c.1924 >> KNITSLEY 148098 c.1937 >> LEADGATE 148110 c.1935 >> >> There was another GARESFIELD 129189, however the specification does not >> tally. >> >> There is also mention of a vessel called IVESTON - Nothing found except a >> Minesweeper of the same name. >> >> If anyone could add to this information please, plus any photographs, I >> would be most appreciative. >> >> Many thanks >> >> Rod Clayburn

Consett Registered as War Rother in London 21/02/1919 Registered as Consett in Newcastle - 1919 Clyde Built ships has all her details http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/viewship.asp?id=20602 Mick Mariners List ----- Original Message ----- From: Rod Clayburn To: mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 8:23 AM Subject: [MAR] Consett Iron and Steel Company vessels