Piers, Wow! Thanks so very much for finding him :-) Just proves - always search for the simplest and most evident fact first - HEPBURN! Would love to hear from anyone who can point me towards further information on this vessel (HMS FORWARD) and as Piers asked - would an 'acting master' be promoted from within the ship's company? Pam Quoting Piers Smith-Cresswell <piers@ps-c.demon.co.uk>: > There's some good stuff about HMS FORWARD (built 1805) at > http://www.berwickshipyard.com/RoverForward.html . The Lt Banks referred > to > was Hepburn's captain as per the 1814 Navy List. It would be interesting > to > know when Hepburn joined the vessel and whether he was present for any > of > the actions mentioned. The Navy not being my thing, others on the list > will > know better where to look to see if any of the vessel's records have > survived, and may be able to comment on whether an "acting master" > might > have been promoted from within the ship's company? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Piers Smith-Cresswell > Sent: 06 June 2011 12:15 > To: 'Paul Benyon'; MARINERS@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [MAR] Captain George HEPBURN > > Ah, but if you just search "Hepburn" you find on p.57 of the same Navy > List > a "Geo. Hepburn" who was acting Master of FORWARD, gv (Gun vessel I > presume) > No.422. > > So maybe the rank (or warrant) was not made substantive by the end of > the > Napoleonic wars. > > > Cheers > Piers > > -----Original Message----- > From: mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Paul Benyon > Sent: 06 June 2011 10:58 > To: MARINERS@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [MAR] Captain George HEPBURN > > Hi Pam > > Regret to advise that the Navy List corrected to the end of December > 1814 does not include a George HEPBURN and only has a John HEPBURN, > whose date of seniority in that rank was 25 July 1798. See Google > Books : > > <http://books.google.com/books?id=0xYYAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA193&dq=Hepburn+George+Ma > ster&hl=en&ei=lpDsTar_EMbOsgapn7jnCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2& > ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Hepburn%20George%20Master&f=false> > > I appreciate that this is the wrong page in the book, but it was the > only page I could reference so that you can have a look for yourself, > to make sure I've not missed anything. Masters are listed in both > seniority and alphabetical order in 2 different parts of the book. > > Also regret that I can't find him in the National Archives database of > Royal Naval Officers' Service Records (ADM 196). Service records of > officers who joined the Royal Navy, 1756 -1917. : take links from : > > http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/adm196.asp > > One wonders if he might have been a Master's Mate or Second Master and > was still under training, In which case he won't be included in either > of the two sources mentioned above. You also imply that he was > married at the age of 23, which was very young for an officer in the > Royal Navy, where the earliest one was expected to marry was about the > age of 30, and to marry before that age would have been frowned on, or > worse ! Even in the early days of my time in the service, in the > 1950s, an officer was discouraged from marrying before he was 25 and > was ineligible to receive any of the benefits to which the then modern > naval officer was entitled...so no marriage allowance and married > quarters etc. As they used to say,,,,,as a naval officer you married > the service first ;-) And whilst we are on the subject, naval > ratings were not expected to get marred before the age of 21, and if > they did, again no married quarters or any or the several allowances > to which married men may have been entitled in those days. And yes, > love can over come anything and I knew a few officers and men, who > despite the best advice, did marry before they attained these ages, > but boy did they struggle financially until they reached the > qualifying ages. > > I would guess that technically he could have been a Master in the > Royal Navy at the age of say 20, if he'd passed the appropriate exams, > and accumulated the necessary sea service etc, and had been > recommended. Although the reverse was also true and many Midshipmen, > similar rating to Master's Mate, who were perhaps not the brightest in > the pack, who were discharged from the service at the end of the > Napoleonic Wars and War of 1812, in almost middle age, and there is > the well known Punch cartoon of a midshipman shining shoes on a street > in London having given the best years of his life serving in the Royal > Navy during the war. So perhaps your George put to good use what the > navy had taught him and he soon became a Master in the Merchant > Service ? Quite a few naval officers of the rank of Lieutenant, who > were put out to grass at the end of the war on half-pay, almost the > equivalent of having retired, became Masters in the Merchant Service, > but one only seems to come across these people in the normal course > when there was an accident or something. A Master in the Royal Navy > was a little different at this date to a Master in the Merchant > Service in that, whilst he was responsible to the Captain for the day > to day running of the ship, as a sailing vessel, and was responsible > for the vessel's navigation and so forth, he did not have the many > responsibilities that a Master in the Merchant Service may have had, > unless he was one of the few senior masters who were appointed as say > master and commander of a naval transport or troop ship. > > So regret am unable to help on the R.N. side of things, and apologies > for the waffle in between. > > Regards > > Paul > > On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:42:25 +1200, p.hislop@paradise.net.nz wrote: > > >Hi, > > > >I have rejoined this list hoping that I might be able to extend my > knowledge about my GGG Grandfather, Captain George HEPBURN. > >I have received great help in the past but have a little more > information > now. > > > >Captain George died on board the Brig 'Highlander' in 1840 (on > checking > date of the newspaper it may well be 1839!) on the passage from Demerara > to > Greenock, Scotland. (where he lived). > >He had formerly been commander of the barques 'Cecilia' and 'Felicity' > and, > according to his death notice, "highly respected as a shipmaster in the > Demerara trade". > > > >His marriage, in Edinburgh, in 1813 states he was a Master in the > Royal > Navy. Would it be usual to have the title 'Master' by the age of > 23yrs?? > > > >If someone dies at sea I presume because death registration was not > compulsory (c 1840) that it would have not been recorded at the home > port? > I certainly can find no record of it in ScotlandsPeople site. > > > >Looking forward to any assistance available with regard to his tenure > in > the Royal Navy.... :-) > > > >Many thanks, in anticipation. > > > >Pam > > > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W > http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Wow! After a couple of weeks in the doldrums, during which Mick and I were rather concerned that things had gone very quiet, the List appears to have awoken with a vengeance. That is good on all concerned, so our thanks for this. It is also heartening that most recent postings have been about the genealogy of mariners which, after all, is what the List was primarily set up by Debbie and Ted to deal with. Even more so that these recent enquiries have generated detailed and helpful replies from our various "experts" on several different aspects of mariners and shipping. Congratulations and please keep up the good work. Ron Mapplebeck Joint Administrator

Hello Mick, Robert enlisted in the Royal Naval reserve in 1885. I have sent you a copy of his service record He would have had experience of Sailing from work with his Father, Master Robert Wilkinson on Colliers up and down the east coast of England. Robert Henry Wilkinson appears to have taken part in the America's Cup on 1903, sailing on the Shamrock I, leaving from Greenock, Scotland in March 1903, and I belive the yacht is private one, and Robert H was just doing his day job as crew, as no mention of RNR ownership on record. I am waiting on a reply from Portsmouth archives for a newspaper look up, and possibly need to visit West Sussex Archives, to see if there is anything in newspapers there. >From the use of words "Supposed" and "On or About" it would suggest that the whole crew plus yacht may have been lost. Regards Klifton Snow ----- Original Message ----- From: Mick To: Mariners ; thesnows Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 12:21 AM Subject: Re: [MAR] "Nymph" Yacht, lost off Selsey,Sussex on or around 26th March 1905. Hi Kliften I have checked the Board of trade wreck reports for 1905 and no vessel with this name or description is reported in this area or any where around the coast for this year ? . I also had a look at the Times Digital Archive between 1900 to 1910 : nothing ? . A few questions, was this vessel a private yacht or did it belong to the Naval Reserve ?. If private she should appear in the Board of trade wreck reports and if she was a Naval Vessel lost with loss of life you would think it would make the papers. Can you add any other information which might aid a new search. Mick Mariners List ----- Original Message ----- From: thesnows To: MARINERS@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 2:31 PM Subject: [MAR] "Nymph" Yacht, lost off Selsey,Sussex on or around 26th March 1905. Hello, I am trying to find out any information that anyone may have came across regarding the sinking of the yacht "Nymph" on or around 26th March 1905, of Selsey. My Great Great Uncle was called Robert Wilkinson, and his Royal Naval Reserve record, states he " Drowned while serving on yacht "Nymph" which is supposed to have been lost off Selsey on or about 26th March 1905" Regards Klifton Snow ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Pam >Would I be right in assuming that my George HEPBURN would have been of a >certain social class Yes, I would think so. Whilst perhaps not quite of the upper class, I would have thought that, like prospective executive officers, he would have needed a good education, and that if he was to succeed in the service would have needed a patron, and thus I would have thought that his family might have had good connections some where along the line, but whether these would have been English or Scots connections I'm unable to say. Most certainly the Scottish education system seems to have been superior to the English, and some might say that things haven't changed a lot on that score ;-) I bang on a bit about education, but so much of the naval Master's job involved a good knowledge of maths, including geometry and trig., and he would also need to be able to write up good reports regarding new coastlines and / or harbours visited with accompanying maps and drawings to aid navigation etc., and to further the collective knowledge of the service. The following URL will give you a good idea regarding his responsibilities some of the other things that a naval Master would need to know : http://www.pbenyon1.plus.com/KR&AI_1808/S06_C2_Master.html http://www.pbenyon1.plus.com/KR&AI_1808/Masters.html >How usual would it have been for someone of his position to leave the Navy and >ply the Demerara (and possibly other) trade/routes? Not at all usual, but these weren't ordinary times. Following the end of the Wars the strength of the RN was reduced from about 120,000 men circa 1814 to about 17,000 in 1817, so a lot of men had to find work elsewhere, and were having to compete with the Army and civilians, so things were quite difficult for former servicemen around this period, particularly when one takes into account that following the end of the war the demand for armaments, ships, guns food and stores etc., all but ceased. So, no doubt many others were in the same position as George, but at least his service in the R.N. gave him a trade to fall back on. Hopefully someone can advise you regarding a shipmaster or whether it is the same a master, but with a bit of 19th Century embroidery ;-) Paul On Tue, 07 Jun 2011 14:58:54 +1200 (NZST), p.hislop@paradise.net.nz wrote: >Thank you so very, very much Paul. This is great information. > >No matter how many answers you find you always have more questions. > >Would I be right in assuming that my George HEPBURN would have been of a >certain >social class to have obtained these positions in the Royal Navy? >The reason I ask is that I know nothing of him before his marriage. > >By 1815, with the baptism of his first child in Greenock, Renfrewshire (as with >his other children) he was described as a Shipmaster. >How usual would it have been for someone of his position to leave the Navy and >ply the Demerara (and possibly other) trade/routes? > >Pam > > >Quoting Paul Benyon <pbenyon@pbenyon.plus.com>: > >> >> >survived, and may be able to comment on whether an "acting master" >> might >> >have been promoted from within the ship's company? >> >> Prof. N.A.M. Rodger wrote in his book Naval Records for Genealogists >> that Masters were the earliest warrant officers to rise in social and >> professional standing and by 1808, were officially recognised as >> Warrant Officers. >> >> I have noticed during later years in the 19th Century that Acting >> Masters appear to have been appointed as such by the Admiralty, >> usually from the rank of Second Master , and whilst some were then >> promoted to Master others reverted back to Second Master at the end of >> their appointment and may well have been promoted to Master at a later >> date. I would also suspect that Flag Officers on foreign stations may >> well have been able to promote Second Masters, but that confirmation >> would be subject to other factors on the officer's return to England, >> much as for Midshipmen promoted to Acting Lieutenants on foreign >> stations. >> >> Regarding the documents for the FORWARD that have survived and are >> held by the National Archives have written to Pam off-list. >> >> Paul >> >> On Mon, 6 Jun 2011 12:32:22 +0100, "Piers Smith-Cresswell" >> <piers@ps-c.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >> >There's some good stuff about HMS FORWARD (built 1805) at >> >http://www.berwickshipyard.com/RoverForward.html . The Lt Banks >> referred to >> >was Hepburn's captain as per the 1814 Navy List. It would be >> interesting to >> >know when Hepburn joined the vessel and whether he was present for any >> of >> >the actions mentioned. The Navy not being my thing, others on the list >> will >> >know better where to look to see if any of the vessel's records have >> >survived, and may be able to comment on whether an "acting master" >> might >> >have been promoted from within the ship's company? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html

Hi Shirlee, Sadly, the words "needle" and "haystack" spring to mind. I think that all the references to George Bradshaw, certainly between 1855 and 1861, are going to be found in Public Record Office in Victoria, see: http://www.access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/PROVguides/PROVguide051/PROVguide051.jsp , if you have not already enquired there. At least they may be able to suggest further lines of research, and the sort of documents that you need to be looking at. From 1861 onwards the world would seem to be your oyster - like many mariners, he evidently got restless. You need to establish where his roots might have been, so perhaps a Census, if he appeared in one, might tell you about his origins. I have not managed to find any mention of one online, but perhaps you've already been down that route? Unless George Bradshaw came back to the UK, it's rather difficult to suggest what to do at this remove. You need his date and place of birth to identify him, and link him to an individual back in the UK, if indeed that is where he ended up, but he may well have done his best to cover his tracks! Sorry not to have more helpful suggestions. Kind regards, PK ________________________________ From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@xtra.co.nz> To: D KLEIN <klein84@btinternet.com> Cc: MARINERS@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, 7 June, 2011 6:07:27 Subject: Re: [MAR] George BRADSHAW Seaman b 1825 London  Hi Peter I am afraid nothing much is known about George Bradshaw seagoing adventures. He married Agnes Russell in Sydney on 9 May 1853. The very early NSW Marr Certs did not allow for parents names. The witnesses were a James Cavanagh and George Paterson - perhaps they were shipmates of George's. His last daughter was born on 23 August 1861 so you could he say he stayed around from 1853 to early 1861 then he took off. George and Agnes moved to Victoria after their only son George was born in 1855. Three daughters were born in Emerald Hill, Victoria, and the last one in Sandys Creek, Victoria. I went through the Mariners and Ship in Australian Waters Index and there seemed to be many George Bradshaw's with ages ranging from 17 to 48 yrs old from 1856 to 1882 and none of them were Masters. Perhaps he took for Gt Britain and made sure never sail to back to Australia waters again. Shirlee Wellington, NZ ----- Original Message ----- >From: D KLEIN >To: Shirlee Cantwell >Cc: Mariners-L@rootsweb.com >Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 10:43 AM >Subject: Re: [MAR] George BRADSHAW Seaman b 1825 London > > >Hello Shirlee, > > >You don't tell us much about George Bradshaw - such as when was he born, >where he lived, or where he sailed from? Having said this, checking the >Mercantile Navy Lists, starting in 1849, there was one certificated master >mariner during the 1850s/60s, a George Jones Bradshaw, who was certificated No. >2612 at London as a Master 2nd Class in 1850. Some of his early ships are >named: in 1851 he was listed 1st Mate on board the Indus of London, sailing >from Southampton to the Med. In 1852 he was master of the Haddington, >sailing from London to Southampton; and in 1853 master of the Norna of >London, sailing from Southampton to Constantinople. He was still listed in >1864. Could this be your man? > > >The only other George Bradshaw I can find listed at this time is a George >William Bradshaw, certificated 22627 as 2nd Mate at London in 1860. > > >I hope there might be something useful here, although these may well be the >wrong men altogether. > > >Regards, > > >Peter Klein > > > ________________________________ From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@xtra.co.nz> >To: MARINERS@rootsweb.com >Sent: Monday, 6 June, 2011 21:04:37 >Subject: [MAR] George BRADSHAW Seaman b 1825 London > >I am new to this list. George BRADSHAW is my Great Great Grandfather and on >the Victorian birth certiciate for the eldest two children he was stated he >was a Master Mariner and Mariner. He deserted the family early in 1861 >before my great grandmother was born. > >Have searched Ancestry and have found a seaman by the name of George Bradshaw >who it could be. > >I thought I could trace him using the Family Search microfilm starting with >the Alphabetical register of Seaman, 1835-1844--class BT119--index to Bt >112. Is this a good one to start with and what other microfilm could I >search? > >Shirlee >Wellington, NZ > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in >the subject and the body of the message >

Roger Jordan ("The World's Merchant Fleets 1939") has the following ship: ARLESIANA, bombed by British aircraft, 5-22.12.42 and 1.2.43, Tunis, abandoned. 31.10.46 refloated; broken up 1949. ARLESIANA: 5604 grt, 9470 dwt : ex DUNAVIS 1939, ex SIBERIAN PRINCE 1933, ex BARON LOVAT 1917. Peter Beeston -----Original Message----- From: steven nichols Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 6:42 AM To: Unknowm Org Subject: [MAR] Italian merchant ship Argentina Mariners. From the book "The War Against Rommel's Supply Lines," on page 105, USAAF B-17's dropped bombs on ships at anchor in Tunis, on the 15th of December 1942, hitting and sinking the 10,000 ton Italian merchant ship Argentina. Any information or details of this ship would be welcome. Regards Steve. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am new to this list. George BRADSHAW is my Great Great Grandfather and on the Victorian birth certiciate for the eldest two children he was stated he was a Master Mariner and Mariner. He deserted the family early in 1861 before my great grandmother was born. Have searched Ancestry and have found a seaman by the name of George Bradshaw who it could be. I thought I could trace him using the Family Search microfilm starting with the Alphabetical register of Seaman, 1835-1844--class BT119--index to Bt 112. Is this a good one to start with and what other microfilm could I search? Shirlee Wellington, NZ

Hi Carol As far as I know Seaham was not a port of register (I am open to correction) but this Lavinia may have worked out of there. Lavinia Official Number 2593 Originally registered in Lyme 1853 and MNL 1860 lists her still in Lyme http://www.crewlist.org.uk/data/vesselsnumview.php?OfficialNumber=2593 She Appears In The MNL 1864, 68 and 1870 Registered in Rochester, owned G.French High Street Chatham, He may have been a Managing Owner. The Register for 2593 Lavinia was closed early in 1871 vessel reported lost in February so I am sure this is the vessel you are looking for. There was one other Lavinia taken off the register in 1871 this was 5759 Reg Plymouth 83 tons she was dropped in December 1871. Maritime History Archive has some Crew information. http://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=2593 You can purchase copies of crew records from Maritime History Archive, if you do please let us know how you got on. Mick Mariners List ----- Original Message ----- From: CarolK Kampenhout To: Mariners Rootsweb Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 6:01 AM Subject: [MAR] Vessel "Lavinia" wreck in the Bridlington Bay Feb 1871

Hi Kliften I have checked the Board of trade wreck reports for 1905 and no vessel with this name or description is reported in this area or any where around the coast for this year ? . I also had a look at the Times Digital Archive between 1900 to 1910 : nothing ? . A few questions, was this vessel a private yacht or did it belong to the Naval Reserve ?. If private she should appear in the Board of trade wreck reports and if she was a Naval Vessel lost with loss of life you would think it would make the papers. Can you add any other information which might aid a new search. Mick Mariners List ----- Original Message ----- From: thesnows To: MARINERS@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 2:31 PM Subject: [MAR] "Nymph" Yacht, lost off Selsey,Sussex on or around 26th March 1905. Hello, I am trying to find out any information that anyone may have came across regarding the sinking of the yacht "Nymph" on or around 26th March 1905, of Selsey. My Great Great Uncle was called Robert Wilkinson, and his Royal Naval Reserve record, states he " Drowned while serving on yacht "Nymph" which is supposed to have been lost off Selsey on or about 26th March 1905" Regards Klifton Snow ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Shirlee, You don't tell us much about George Bradshaw - such as when was he born, where he lived, or where he sailed from? Having said this, checking the Mercantile Navy Lists, starting in 1849, there was one certificated master mariner during the 1850s/60s, a George Jones Bradshaw, who was certificated No. 2612 at London as a Master 2nd Class in 1850. Some of his early ships are named: in 1851 he was listed 1st Mate on board the Indus of London, sailing from Southampton to the Med. In 1852 he was master of the Haddington, sailing from London to Southampton; and in 1853 master of the Norna of London, sailing from Southampton to Constantinople. He was still listed in 1864. Could this be your man? The only other George Bradshaw I can find listed at this time is a George William Bradshaw, certificated 22627 as 2nd Mate at London in 1860. I hope there might be something useful here, although these may well be the wrong men altogether. Regards, Peter Klein ________________________________ From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@xtra.co.nz> To: MARINERS@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, 6 June, 2011 21:04:37 Subject: [MAR] George BRADSHAW Seaman b 1825 London I am new to this list. George BRADSHAW is my Great Great Grandfather and on the Victorian birth certiciate for the eldest two children he was stated he was a Master Mariner and Mariner. He deserted the family early in 1861 before my great grandmother was born. Have searched Ancestry and have found a seaman by the name of George Bradshaw who it could be. I thought I could trace him using the Family Search microfilm starting with the Alphabetical register of Seaman, 1835-1844--class BT119--index to Bt 112. Is this a good one to start with and what other microfilm could I search? Shirlee Wellington, NZ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for the reply Peter If its possible to share the picture "with the owners consent" I would like a scan for our Photo Gallery, would tie in to your query. If you ever get to the bottom of the story let us know as this has intrigued me and I am sure some others on the list . Mick Mariners List ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Green To: Mariners-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 6:06 AM Subject: [MAR] SS Hindustan - follow up

Mariners. From the book "The War Against Rommel's Supply Lines," on page 105, USAAF B-17's dropped bombs on ships at anchor in Tunis, on the 15th of December 1942, hitting and sinking the 10,000 ton Italian merchant ship Argentina. Any information or details of this ship would be welcome. Regards Steve.

>survived, and may be able to comment on whether an "acting master" might >have been promoted from within the ship's company? Prof. N.A.M. Rodger wrote in his book Naval Records for Genealogists that Masters were the earliest warrant officers to rise in social and professional standing and by 1808, were officially recognised as Warrant Officers. I have noticed during later years in the 19th Century that Acting Masters appear to have been appointed as such by the Admiralty, usually from the rank of Second Master , and whilst some were then promoted to Master others reverted back to Second Master at the end of their appointment and may well have been promoted to Master at a later date. I would also suspect that Flag Officers on foreign stations may well have been able to promote Second Masters, but that confirmation would be subject to other factors on the officer's return to England, much as for Midshipmen promoted to Acting Lieutenants on foreign stations. Regarding the documents for the FORWARD that have survived and are held by the National Archives have written to Pam off-list. Paul On Mon, 6 Jun 2011 12:32:22 +0100, "Piers Smith-Cresswell" <piers@ps-c.demon.co.uk> wrote: >There's some good stuff about HMS FORWARD (built 1805) at >http://www.berwickshipyard.com/RoverForward.html . The Lt Banks referred to >was Hepburn's captain as per the 1814 Navy List. It would be interesting to >know when Hepburn joined the vessel and whether he was present for any of >the actions mentioned. The Navy not being my thing, others on the list will >know better where to look to see if any of the vessel's records have >survived, and may be able to comment on whether an "acting master" might >have been promoted from within the ship's company? > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com] >On Behalf Of Piers Smith-Cresswell >Sent: 06 June 2011 12:15 >To: 'Paul Benyon'; MARINERS@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [MAR] Captain George HEPBURN > >Ah, but if you just search "Hepburn" you find on p.57 of the same Navy List >a "Geo. Hepburn" who was acting Master of FORWARD, gv (Gun vessel I presume) >No.422. > >So maybe the rank (or warrant) was not made substantive by the end of the >Napoleonic wars. > > >Cheers >Piers > >-----Original Message----- >From: mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com] >On Behalf Of Paul Benyon >Sent: 06 June 2011 10:58 >To: MARINERS@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [MAR] Captain George HEPBURN > >Hi Pam > >Regret to advise that the Navy List corrected to the end of December >1814 does not include a George HEPBURN and only has a John HEPBURN, >whose date of seniority in that rank was 25 July 1798. See Google >Books : > ><http://books.google.com/books?id=0xYYAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA193&dq=Hepburn+George+Ma >ster&hl=en&ei=lpDsTar_EMbOsgapn7jnCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2& >ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Hepburn%20George%20Master&f=false> > >I appreciate that this is the wrong page in the book, but it was the >only page I could reference so that you can have a look for yourself, >to make sure I've not missed anything. Masters are listed in both >seniority and alphabetical order in 2 different parts of the book. > >Also regret that I can't find him in the National Archives database of >Royal Naval Officers' Service Records (ADM 196). Service records of >officers who joined the Royal Navy, 1756 -1917. : take links from : > >http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/adm196.asp > >One wonders if he might have been a Master's Mate or Second Master and >was still under training, In which case he won't be included in either >of the two sources mentioned above. You also imply that he was >married at the age of 23, which was very young for an officer in the >Royal Navy, where the earliest one was expected to marry was about the >age of 30, and to marry before that age would have been frowned on, or >worse ! Even in the early days of my time in the service, in the >1950s, an officer was discouraged from marrying before he was 25 and >was ineligible to receive any of the benefits to which the then modern >naval officer was entitled...so no marriage allowance and married >quarters etc. As they used to say,,,,,as a naval officer you married >the service first ;-) And whilst we are on the subject, naval >ratings were not expected to get marred before the age of 21, and if >they did, again no married quarters or any or the several allowances >to which married men may have been entitled in those days. And yes, >love can over come anything and I knew a few officers and men, who >despite the best advice, did marry before they attained these ages, >but boy did they struggle financially until they reached the >qualifying ages. > >I would guess that technically he could have been a Master in the >Royal Navy at the age of say 20, if he'd passed the appropriate exams, >and accumulated the necessary sea service etc, and had been >recommended. Although the reverse was also true and many Midshipmen, >similar rating to Master's Mate, who were perhaps not the brightest in >the pack, who were discharged from the service at the end of the >Napoleonic Wars and War of 1812, in almost middle age, and there is >the well known Punch cartoon of a midshipman shining shoes on a street >in London having given the best years of his life serving in the Royal >Navy during the war. So perhaps your George put to good use what the >navy had taught him and he soon became a Master in the Merchant >Service ? Quite a few naval officers of the rank of Lieutenant, who >were put out to grass at the end of the war on half-pay, almost the >equivalent of having retired, became Masters in the Merchant Service, >but one only seems to come across these people in the normal course >when there was an accident or something. A Master in the Royal Navy >was a little different at this date to a Master in the Merchant >Service in that, whilst he was responsible to the Captain for the day >to day running of the ship, as a sailing vessel, and was responsible >for the vessel's navigation and so forth, he did not have the many >responsibilities that a Master in the Merchant Service may have had, >unless he was one of the few senior masters who were appointed as say >master and commander of a naval transport or troop ship. > >So regret am unable to help on the R.N. side of things, and apologies >for the waffle in between. > >Regards > >Paul > >On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:42:25 +1200, p.hislop@paradise.net.nz wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>I have rejoined this list hoping that I might be able to extend my >knowledge about my GGG Grandfather, Captain George HEPBURN. >>I have received great help in the past but have a little more information >now. >> >>Captain George died on board the Brig 'Highlander' in 1840 (on checking >date of the newspaper it may well be 1839!) on the passage from Demerara to >Greenock, Scotland. (where he lived). >>He had formerly been commander of the barques 'Cecilia' and 'Felicity' and, >according to his death notice, "highly respected as a shipmaster in the >Demerara trade". >> >>His marriage, in Edinburgh, in 1813 states he was a Master in the Royal >Navy. Would it be usual to have the title 'Master' by the age of 23yrs?? >> >>If someone dies at sea I presume because death registration was not >compulsory (c 1840) that it would have not been recorded at the home port? >I certainly can find no record of it in ScotlandsPeople site. >> >>Looking forward to any assistance available with regard to his tenure in >the Royal Navy.... :-) >> >>Many thanks, in anticipation. >> >>Pam >> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message >50° 33' N, 2° 26' W >http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message > > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message > > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html

Hi, I have rejoined this list hoping that I might be able to extend my knowledge about my GGG Grandfather, Captain George HEPBURN. I have received great help in the past but have a little more information now. Captain George died on board the Brig 'Highlander' in 1840 (on checking date of the newspaper it may well be 1839!) on the passage from Demerara to Greenock, Scotland. (where he lived). He had formerly been commander of the barques 'Cecilia' and 'Felicity' and, according to his death notice, "highly respected as a shipmaster in the Demerara trade". His marriage, in Edinburgh, in 1813 states he was a Master in the Royal Navy. Would it be usual to have the title 'Master' by the age of 23yrs?? If someone dies at sea I presume because death registration was not compulsory (c 1840) that it would have not been recorded at the home port? I certainly can find no record of it in ScotlandsPeople site. Looking forward to any assistance available with regard to his tenure in the Royal Navy.... :-) Many thanks, in anticipation. Pam

Hi Mariners, Thanks to Mick, MargM, Adi and Ted for their responses to my query about the Hindustan - much appreciated! The suggestion to search TROVE (an online archive of newspapers in Australia) has been extremely productive. I've been able to track the Hindustan's movements from the time she first entered Australian waters (Adelaide) in late 1896 with a load of sugar from Mauritius, to the time she finally left in June 1898. In between times she worked along the southern coast of Australia with repeated voyages between Sydney, Newcastle, Melbourne, Adelaide and Fremantle. She was in the wars along the way - slipped her mooring in the Yarra River during a gale in Nov 1897 and collided with another ship, causing considerable damage to both, and then ran aground soon after (Jan 1898) in Fremantle harbor. Australian newspaper shipping records have her departing Fremantle (Western Australia) for Java and Singapore on 18 June 1898, and the Singapore press has her arriving on 8 July. She departed Singapore for Karachi on 9 July 1898, which dovetails very nicely with Mick's intel that she left Karachi in August 1898. There is no further mention of her in the Singapore or Australian shipping press, and Mick's searches suggests she spent most of 1899 on the other side of the world. The key point here is that at the time she was supposed have visited Christmas Island and introduced those rats (Dec 1899), the available evidence suggests she was half a world away. The date of Dec 1899 comes from a Captain Vincent, who was manager of mining operations on the island at the time. It seems he got his date, or the name of the ship, wrong. Accepting it was the Hindustan, when did she visit the island? Christmas Island is on the route between Fremantle and Java/Singapore, and two dates are possible. 1. Newspaper accounts suggest the Hindustan sailed between Fremantle and Java in Dec 1897/Jan 1898, returning to Fremantle in late Jan 1898, or 2. on the run in June 1898 that ultimately took her to Karachi (above) and on to South Africa and London. I like the earlier date better, for no other reason that the month (Dec) matches with Captain Vincent's timing - maybe the good Captain recalled the month correctly, but not the year. One final piece of evidence. Many of the earliest records of mining on Christmas Island are archived in Melbourne, and somewhat amazingly, last week I located a photograph of the SS Hindustan berthed at Christmas Island. Unfortunately the photograph I saw is a copy of the original. It has the ship's name, but no date. I'm hoping to locate the original, and flip it over to find date written on the back. Thanks again for the help, Pete Dr Pete Green Department of Botany | La Trobe University | Bundoora VIC 3086 T: 03 9479 3675| F: 03 9479 1188| W: www.latrobe.edu.au<http://www.latrobe.edu.au/> La Trobe University - ranked top in Victoria for student satisfaction (Sweeney Uni Student Report, 2009) CRICOS Provider 00115M J Please kindly consider your environment before printing this e-mail Warning to recipients: This email and any attachments are confidential and subject to copyright. If you are not the intended recipient any use, disclosure or copying is unauthorised. If you have received this email in error please advise us immediately by reply email and delete all copies. It is your responsibility to examine this email and any attachments for viruses. Any personal information in this email must be handled in accordance with the Information Privacy Act 2000 (Vic).

There seem to be all sorts of muster documents, pay books, Captains and Master's logs and so on, for FORWARD at the National Archives (on pps 1, 2 and 8 of this search): http://tinyurl.com/6eomnlw and you may be able to order digital copies on line. Probably cheaper than a flight from NZ...... well a bit cheaper. You could start from when you know he was aboard (Dec 1814) and work from there, such as the musters for Sept 1813-Sept 1815 at ADM 37/4909 and/or pay book for 1810-15 at ADM 35/3469. The Master's log for July 1814-Sept 1815 at ADM 52/4491 might be interesting too as he would presumably have written at least some of it. Each reference seems to include records for at least one other vessel so be sure to specify that it's just FORWARD you're interested in. Cheers Piers > >On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:42:25 +1200, p.hislop@paradise.net.nz wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>I have rejoined this list hoping that I might be able to extend my >knowledge about my GGG Grandfather, Captain George HEPBURN. >>I have received great help in the past but have a little more information >now. >> >>Captain George died on board the Brig 'Highlander' in 1840 (on checking >date of the newspaper it may well be 1839!) on the passage from Demerara to >Greenock, Scotland. (where he lived). >>He had formerly been commander of the barques 'Cecilia' and 'Felicity' and, >according to his death notice, "highly respected as a shipmaster in the >Demerara trade". >> >>His marriage, in Edinburgh, in 1813 states he was a Master in the Royal >Navy. Would it be usual to have the title 'Master' by the age of 23yrs?? >> >>If someone dies at sea I presume because death registration was not >compulsory (c 1840) that it would have not been recorded at the home port? >I certainly can find no record of it in ScotlandsPeople site. >> >>Looking forward to any assistance available with regard to his tenure in >the Royal Navy.... :-) >> >>Many thanks, in anticipation. >> >>Pam >> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message >50° 33' N, 2° 26' W >http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message > > 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Good one Piers.. thanks....in which case here are a few notes I made for the Forward, which was broken up in 1815 : http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/18-1900/F/01864a.html But regret nothing further in the Navy Lists for the years 1816 and 1827 as far as I can see, (i.e. those to which I have access), and would guess that he wasn't confirmed as a Master with the end of the War, but am unable to confirm it, either way. FWIW can find no claim for a pension in the National Archives ADM 29 series. Regards Paul On Mon, 6 Jun 2011 12:15:03 +0100, you wrote: >Ah, but if you just search "Hepburn" you find on p.57 of the same Navy List >a "Geo. Hepburn" who was acting Master of FORWARD, gv (Gun vessel I presume) >No.422. > >So maybe the rank (or warrant) was not made substantive by the end of the >Napoleonic wars. > > >Cheers >Piers > >-----Original Message----- >From: mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com] >On Behalf Of Paul Benyon >Sent: 06 June 2011 10:58 >To: MARINERS@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [MAR] Captain George HEPBURN > >Hi Pam > >Regret to advise that the Navy List corrected to the end of December >1814 does not include a George HEPBURN and only has a John HEPBURN, >whose date of seniority in that rank was 25 July 1798. See Google >Books : > ><http://books.google.com/books?id=0xYYAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA193&dq=Hepburn+George+Ma >ster&hl=en&ei=lpDsTar_EMbOsgapn7jnCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2& >ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Hepburn%20George%20Master&f=false> > >I appreciate that this is the wrong page in the book, but it was the >only page I could reference so that you can have a look for yourself, >to make sure I've not missed anything. Masters are listed in both >seniority and alphabetical order in 2 different parts of the book. > >Also regret that I can't find him in the National Archives database of >Royal Naval Officers' Service Records (ADM 196). Service records of >officers who joined the Royal Navy, 1756 -1917. : take links from : > >http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/adm196.asp > >One wonders if he might have been a Master's Mate or Second Master and >was still under training, In which case he won't be included in either >of the two sources mentioned above. You also imply that he was >married at the age of 23, which was very young for an officer in the >Royal Navy, where the earliest one was expected to marry was about the >age of 30, and to marry before that age would have been frowned on, or >worse ! Even in the early days of my time in the service, in the >1950s, an officer was discouraged from marrying before he was 25 and >was ineligible to receive any of the benefits to which the then modern >naval officer was entitled...so no marriage allowance and married >quarters etc. As they used to say,,,,,as a naval officer you married >the service first ;-) And whilst we are on the subject, naval >ratings were not expected to get marred before the age of 21, and if >they did, again no married quarters or any or the several allowances >to which married men may have been entitled in those days. And yes, >love can over come anything and I knew a few officers and men, who >despite the best advice, did marry before they attained these ages, >but boy did they struggle financially until they reached the >qualifying ages. > >I would guess that technically he could have been a Master in the >Royal Navy at the age of say 20, if he'd passed the appropriate exams, >and accumulated the necessary sea service etc, and had been >recommended. Although the reverse was also true and many Midshipmen, >similar rating to Master's Mate, who were perhaps not the brightest in >the pack, who were discharged from the service at the end of the >Napoleonic Wars and War of 1812, in almost middle age, and there is >the well known Punch cartoon of a midshipman shining shoes on a street >in London having given the best years of his life serving in the Royal >Navy during the war. So perhaps your George put to good use what the >navy had taught him and he soon became a Master in the Merchant >Service ? Quite a few naval officers of the rank of Lieutenant, who >were put out to grass at the end of the war on half-pay, almost the >equivalent of having retired, became Masters in the Merchant Service, >but one only seems to come across these people in the normal course >when there was an accident or something. A Master in the Royal Navy >was a little different at this date to a Master in the Merchant >Service in that, whilst he was responsible to the Captain for the day >to day running of the ship, as a sailing vessel, and was responsible >for the vessel's navigation and so forth, he did not have the many >responsibilities that a Master in the Merchant Service may have had, >unless he was one of the few senior masters who were appointed as say >master and commander of a naval transport or troop ship. > >So regret am unable to help on the R.N. side of things, and apologies >for the waffle in between. > >Regards > >Paul > >On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:42:25 +1200, p.hislop@paradise.net.nz wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>I have rejoined this list hoping that I might be able to extend my >knowledge about my GGG Grandfather, Captain George HEPBURN. >>I have received great help in the past but have a little more information >now. >> >>Captain George died on board the Brig 'Highlander' in 1840 (on checking >date of the newspaper it may well be 1839!) on the passage from Demerara to >Greenock, Scotland. (where he lived). >>He had formerly been commander of the barques 'Cecilia' and 'Felicity' and, >according to his death notice, "highly respected as a shipmaster in the >Demerara trade". >> >>His marriage, in Edinburgh, in 1813 states he was a Master in the Royal >Navy. Would it be usual to have the title 'Master' by the age of 23yrs?? >> >>If someone dies at sea I presume because death registration was not >compulsory (c 1840) that it would have not been recorded at the home port? >I certainly can find no record of it in ScotlandsPeople site. >> >>Looking forward to any assistance available with regard to his tenure in >the Royal Navy.... :-) >> >>Many thanks, in anticipation. >> >>Pam >> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message >50° 33' N, 2° 26' W >http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message > > 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html

There's some good stuff about HMS FORWARD (built 1805) at http://www.berwickshipyard.com/RoverForward.html . The Lt Banks referred to was Hepburn's captain as per the 1814 Navy List. It would be interesting to know when Hepburn joined the vessel and whether he was present for any of the actions mentioned. The Navy not being my thing, others on the list will know better where to look to see if any of the vessel's records have survived, and may be able to comment on whether an "acting master" might have been promoted from within the ship's company? -----Original Message----- From: mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Piers Smith-Cresswell Sent: 06 June 2011 12:15 To: 'Paul Benyon'; MARINERS@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MAR] Captain George HEPBURN Ah, but if you just search "Hepburn" you find on p.57 of the same Navy List a "Geo. Hepburn" who was acting Master of FORWARD, gv (Gun vessel I presume) No.422. So maybe the rank (or warrant) was not made substantive by the end of the Napoleonic wars. Cheers Piers -----Original Message----- From: mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Benyon Sent: 06 June 2011 10:58 To: MARINERS@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MAR] Captain George HEPBURN Hi Pam Regret to advise that the Navy List corrected to the end of December 1814 does not include a George HEPBURN and only has a John HEPBURN, whose date of seniority in that rank was 25 July 1798. See Google Books : <http://books.google.com/books?id=0xYYAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA193&dq=Hepburn+George+Ma ster&hl=en&ei=lpDsTar_EMbOsgapn7jnCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2& ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Hepburn%20George%20Master&f=false> I appreciate that this is the wrong page in the book, but it was the only page I could reference so that you can have a look for yourself, to make sure I've not missed anything. Masters are listed in both seniority and alphabetical order in 2 different parts of the book. Also regret that I can't find him in the National Archives database of Royal Naval Officers' Service Records (ADM 196). Service records of officers who joined the Royal Navy, 1756 -1917. : take links from : http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/adm196.asp One wonders if he might have been a Master's Mate or Second Master and was still under training, In which case he won't be included in either of the two sources mentioned above. You also imply that he was married at the age of 23, which was very young for an officer in the Royal Navy, where the earliest one was expected to marry was about the age of 30, and to marry before that age would have been frowned on, or worse ! Even in the early days of my time in the service, in the 1950s, an officer was discouraged from marrying before he was 25 and was ineligible to receive any of the benefits to which the then modern naval officer was entitled...so no marriage allowance and married quarters etc. As they used to say,,,,,as a naval officer you married the service first ;-) And whilst we are on the subject, naval ratings were not expected to get marred before the age of 21, and if they did, again no married quarters or any or the several allowances to which married men may have been entitled in those days. And yes, love can over come anything and I knew a few officers and men, who despite the best advice, did marry before they attained these ages, but boy did they struggle financially until they reached the qualifying ages. I would guess that technically he could have been a Master in the Royal Navy at the age of say 20, if he'd passed the appropriate exams, and accumulated the necessary sea service etc, and had been recommended. Although the reverse was also true and many Midshipmen, similar rating to Master's Mate, who were perhaps not the brightest in the pack, who were discharged from the service at the end of the Napoleonic Wars and War of 1812, in almost middle age, and there is the well known Punch cartoon of a midshipman shining shoes on a street in London having given the best years of his life serving in the Royal Navy during the war. So perhaps your George put to good use what the navy had taught him and he soon became a Master in the Merchant Service ? Quite a few naval officers of the rank of Lieutenant, who were put out to grass at the end of the war on half-pay, almost the equivalent of having retired, became Masters in the Merchant Service, but one only seems to come across these people in the normal course when there was an accident or something. A Master in the Royal Navy was a little different at this date to a Master in the Merchant Service in that, whilst he was responsible to the Captain for the day to day running of the ship, as a sailing vessel, and was responsible for the vessel's navigation and so forth, he did not have the many responsibilities that a Master in the Merchant Service may have had, unless he was one of the few senior masters who were appointed as say master and commander of a naval transport or troop ship. So regret am unable to help on the R.N. side of things, and apologies for the waffle in between. Regards Paul On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:42:25 +1200, p.hislop@paradise.net.nz wrote: >Hi, > >I have rejoined this list hoping that I might be able to extend my knowledge about my GGG Grandfather, Captain George HEPBURN. >I have received great help in the past but have a little more information now. > >Captain George died on board the Brig 'Highlander' in 1840 (on checking date of the newspaper it may well be 1839!) on the passage from Demerara to Greenock, Scotland. (where he lived). >He had formerly been commander of the barques 'Cecilia' and 'Felicity' and, according to his death notice, "highly respected as a shipmaster in the Demerara trade". > >His marriage, in Edinburgh, in 1813 states he was a Master in the Royal Navy. Would it be usual to have the title 'Master' by the age of 23yrs?? > >If someone dies at sea I presume because death registration was not compulsory (c 1840) that it would have not been recorded at the home port? I certainly can find no record of it in ScotlandsPeople site. > >Looking forward to any assistance available with regard to his tenure in the Royal Navy.... :-) > >Many thanks, in anticipation. > >Pam > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ah, but if you just search "Hepburn" you find on p.57 of the same Navy List a "Geo. Hepburn" who was acting Master of FORWARD, gv (Gun vessel I presume) No.422. So maybe the rank (or warrant) was not made substantive by the end of the Napoleonic wars. Cheers Piers -----Original Message----- From: mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Benyon Sent: 06 June 2011 10:58 To: MARINERS@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MAR] Captain George HEPBURN Hi Pam Regret to advise that the Navy List corrected to the end of December 1814 does not include a George HEPBURN and only has a John HEPBURN, whose date of seniority in that rank was 25 July 1798. See Google Books : <http://books.google.com/books?id=0xYYAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA193&dq=Hepburn+George+Ma ster&hl=en&ei=lpDsTar_EMbOsgapn7jnCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2& ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Hepburn%20George%20Master&f=false> I appreciate that this is the wrong page in the book, but it was the only page I could reference so that you can have a look for yourself, to make sure I've not missed anything. Masters are listed in both seniority and alphabetical order in 2 different parts of the book. Also regret that I can't find him in the National Archives database of Royal Naval Officers' Service Records (ADM 196). Service records of officers who joined the Royal Navy, 1756 -1917. : take links from : http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/adm196.asp One wonders if he might have been a Master's Mate or Second Master and was still under training, In which case he won't be included in either of the two sources mentioned above. You also imply that he was married at the age of 23, which was very young for an officer in the Royal Navy, where the earliest one was expected to marry was about the age of 30, and to marry before that age would have been frowned on, or worse ! Even in the early days of my time in the service, in the 1950s, an officer was discouraged from marrying before he was 25 and was ineligible to receive any of the benefits to which the then modern naval officer was entitled...so no marriage allowance and married quarters etc. As they used to say,,,,,as a naval officer you married the service first ;-) And whilst we are on the subject, naval ratings were not expected to get marred before the age of 21, and if they did, again no married quarters or any or the several allowances to which married men may have been entitled in those days. And yes, love can over come anything and I knew a few officers and men, who despite the best advice, did marry before they attained these ages, but boy did they struggle financially until they reached the qualifying ages. I would guess that technically he could have been a Master in the Royal Navy at the age of say 20, if he'd passed the appropriate exams, and accumulated the necessary sea service etc, and had been recommended. Although the reverse was also true and many Midshipmen, similar rating to Master's Mate, who were perhaps not the brightest in the pack, who were discharged from the service at the end of the Napoleonic Wars and War of 1812, in almost middle age, and there is the well known Punch cartoon of a midshipman shining shoes on a street in London having given the best years of his life serving in the Royal Navy during the war. So perhaps your George put to good use what the navy had taught him and he soon became a Master in the Merchant Service ? Quite a few naval officers of the rank of Lieutenant, who were put out to grass at the end of the war on half-pay, almost the equivalent of having retired, became Masters in the Merchant Service, but one only seems to come across these people in the normal course when there was an accident or something. A Master in the Royal Navy was a little different at this date to a Master in the Merchant Service in that, whilst he was responsible to the Captain for the day to day running of the ship, as a sailing vessel, and was responsible for the vessel's navigation and so forth, he did not have the many responsibilities that a Master in the Merchant Service may have had, unless he was one of the few senior masters who were appointed as say master and commander of a naval transport or troop ship. So regret am unable to help on the R.N. side of things, and apologies for the waffle in between. Regards Paul On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:42:25 +1200, p.hislop@paradise.net.nz wrote: >Hi, > >I have rejoined this list hoping that I might be able to extend my knowledge about my GGG Grandfather, Captain George HEPBURN. >I have received great help in the past but have a little more information now. > >Captain George died on board the Brig 'Highlander' in 1840 (on checking date of the newspaper it may well be 1839!) on the passage from Demerara to Greenock, Scotland. (where he lived). >He had formerly been commander of the barques 'Cecilia' and 'Felicity' and, according to his death notice, "highly respected as a shipmaster in the Demerara trade". > >His marriage, in Edinburgh, in 1813 states he was a Master in the Royal Navy. Would it be usual to have the title 'Master' by the age of 23yrs?? > >If someone dies at sea I presume because death registration was not compulsory (c 1840) that it would have not been recorded at the home port? I certainly can find no record of it in ScotlandsPeople site. > >Looking forward to any assistance available with regard to his tenure in the Royal Navy.... :-) > >Many thanks, in anticipation. > >Pam > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Pam Regret to advise that the Navy List corrected to the end of December 1814 does not include a George HEPBURN and only has a John HEPBURN, whose date of seniority in that rank was 25 July 1798. See Google Books : <http://books.google.com/books?id=0xYYAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA193&dq=Hepburn+George+Master&hl=en&ei=lpDsTar_EMbOsgapn7jnCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Hepburn%20George%20Master&f=false> I appreciate that this is the wrong page in the book, but it was the only page I could reference so that you can have a look for yourself, to make sure I've not missed anything. Masters are listed in both seniority and alphabetical order in 2 different parts of the book. Also regret that I can't find him in the National Archives database of Royal Naval Officers' Service Records (ADM 196). Service records of officers who joined the Royal Navy, 1756 -1917. : take links from : http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/adm196.asp One wonders if he might have been a Master's Mate or Second Master and was still under training, In which case he won't be included in either of the two sources mentioned above. You also imply that he was married at the age of 23, which was very young for an officer in the Royal Navy, where the earliest one was expected to marry was about the age of 30, and to marry before that age would have been frowned on, or worse ! Even in the early days of my time in the service, in the 1950s, an officer was discouraged from marrying before he was 25 and was ineligible to receive any of the benefits to which the then modern naval officer was entitled...so no marriage allowance and married quarters etc. As they used to say,,,,,as a naval officer you married the service first ;-) And whilst we are on the subject, naval ratings were not expected to get marred before the age of 21, and if they did, again no married quarters or any or the several allowances to which married men may have been entitled in those days. And yes, love can over come anything and I knew a few officers and men, who despite the best advice, did marry before they attained these ages, but boy did they struggle financially until they reached the qualifying ages. I would guess that technically he could have been a Master in the Royal Navy at the age of say 20, if he'd passed the appropriate exams, and accumulated the necessary sea service etc, and had been recommended. Although the reverse was also true and many Midshipmen, similar rating to Master's Mate, who were perhaps not the brightest in the pack, who were discharged from the service at the end of the Napoleonic Wars and War of 1812, in almost middle age, and there is the well known Punch cartoon of a midshipman shining shoes on a street in London having given the best years of his life serving in the Royal Navy during the war. So perhaps your George put to good use what the navy had taught him and he soon became a Master in the Merchant Service ? Quite a few naval officers of the rank of Lieutenant, who were put out to grass at the end of the war on half-pay, almost the equivalent of having retired, became Masters in the Merchant Service, but one only seems to come across these people in the normal course when there was an accident or something. A Master in the Royal Navy was a little different at this date to a Master in the Merchant Service in that, whilst he was responsible to the Captain for the day to day running of the ship, as a sailing vessel, and was responsible for the vessel's navigation and so forth, he did not have the many responsibilities that a Master in the Merchant Service may have had, unless he was one of the few senior masters who were appointed as say master and commander of a naval transport or troop ship. So regret am unable to help on the R.N. side of things, and apologies for the waffle in between. Regards Paul On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:42:25 +1200, p.hislop@paradise.net.nz wrote: >Hi, > >I have rejoined this list hoping that I might be able to extend my knowledge about my GGG Grandfather, Captain George HEPBURN. >I have received great help in the past but have a little more information now. > >Captain George died on board the Brig 'Highlander' in 1840 (on checking date of the newspaper it may well be 1839!) on the passage from Demerara to Greenock, Scotland. (where he lived). >He had formerly been commander of the barques 'Cecilia' and 'Felicity' and, according to his death notice, "highly respected as a shipmaster in the Demerara trade". > >His marriage, in Edinburgh, in 1813 states he was a Master in the Royal Navy. Would it be usual to have the title 'Master' by the age of 23yrs?? > >If someone dies at sea I presume because death registration was not compulsory (c 1840) that it would have not been recorded at the home port? I certainly can find no record of it in ScotlandsPeople site. > >Looking forward to any assistance available with regard to his tenure in the Royal Navy.... :-) > >Many thanks, in anticipation. > >Pam > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html