Hi Barbara If this was a port rotation number, then it would be 61 for the port of Lerwick and 88 for the ships rotation number. or was there a number infront of 6188 ? I think this might be his Seamans Ticket No. in which case records are at the national Archives Kew London. I found my mariner surname COTTER Ticket No.8354 under BT119 and in BT112/14 under 8354 it listed the ships with the Port Rotation. Port Rotation numbers always start with a port number followed by / and then the ships rotation number. See mariner-L website for the numbers and ports. For example in BT112 it listed No. 64/218 which is 64 = London. 218 = ship Julius for the period 1835 to 1844. You then have to go to the crew agreements for that port which are filed in large boxes in rough alphabetical order of ships name and look for the rotation number endorsed on the agreement. If you have a port rotation number for a ship with common name like Anne, etc and there are more than one in that port then to find details of the ship, go to the custom house register for that port, look at all the Anne's registered, they included endorsements of when the masters were in charge. Compare it with the name of the master on your Port Rotation numbered crew list then you will have the exact ship. Sorry not an easy task Look at the National Archive website for research documents which might tell you which BT reference you want for the period in question. Regards Bryan www.swanseamariners.org.UK

Hi Sue, And here they are. Ship positions were transmitted by cable at this date, so were known within a few hours, unlike in the 1840s or whenever, when it took weeks or even months for the arrival or position of a ship to be reported, normally by another ship coming the other way! Assuming that the voyage took place in 1889 alone, and did not run over into other years, this is a succession of cuttings that give a good idea of Jumna's route, position, and timing earlier during that year. The Standard, 1 January 1889: "Queensland and Torres Straits. The Queensland Royal Mail Line Steamers, carrying the Queensland Mails, leave London for Brisbane, calling at Thursday Island, Cooktown, Townsville, Bowen, Mackay, and Rockhampton. Steamer: Jumna. Tons: 5179. Commander: W. A. Burkitt. Date of Sailing: 9th Jan. (also the Dacca, 3638 tons, Capt. J. Stone, sailing 5th Feb.) These Steamers are fitted with all the latest improvements, electric lighted throughout, and present a favourable opportunity for Saloon Passengers proceeding to the Colony. For freight and passage apply to Gray, Dawes, and Co., 15, Austinfriars; or Gellatly, Hankey, Sewell, and Co., 100 Leadenhall-street, London." The Standard, 11 January 1889: Gravesend, Jan. 10. Queensland Line steamer Jumna has left for Brisbane. The Standard, 12 January 1889: St. Catherine's Point, Jan. 11. Queensland Line steamer Jumna, for Brisbane, has passed. The Standard, 15 January 1889: Lisbon, Jan. 14. Queensland steamer Jumna, for Brisbane, has passed. The Glasgow Herald, 19 January 1889: Malta, Jan. 18. Steamer Jumna, London, for Brisbane, has passed here. The Standard, 21 January 1889: Malta, Jan. 18. Queensland steamer Jumna, for Brisbane, has left. The Morning Post, 23 January 1889: Suez Canal (Port Said), Jan. 21. The Queensland Line Jumna, from London for Brisbane, left. This gives you a good idea of the style of the reports. I will abbreviate the remainder, unless they are particularly significant. Sometimes reports are contradictory, but the date can be that of the report itself rather than the event. Jan. 23rd: Left Suez. Jan. 28th: Arrived Aden. Feb. 5th or 6th: Arrived Colombo evening. Feb. 13th: Left Batavia. Feb. 21st: Passed Thursday Island. Feb.24th: Arrived Cooktown. March 2nd: Arrived Rockhampton. March 5th: Arrived Brisbane. March 12th: Left Brisbane for London. Let me know if this trip is not that which your relative took, if it was later in the year. Kind regards, PK ________________________________ From: Sue Church <sue_church@hotmail.co.uk> To: klein84@btinternet.com Sent: Tuesday, 28 June, 2011 22:44:41 Subject: RE: [MAR] NEWBIE HERE Hi PK Wow thanks for your quick response, I am impressed, was just about to call it a night. The ship was the SS Jumna, 3377tons the ship's Captain was Birkill, Surgeon Supt was Dr. Marshall & ship's Matron was Mrs Lymons. Saloon 10: Steerage (what ever that is) 52. Have just been going through the journal and have so far found the following route, not sure if it's right: London, Bay of Biscay, Cape St Vincent, Malta, Port Said, Suez Canal, Aden, Indian Ocean, Island of Ceylon, Batavia Thursday Island, Brisbane. I shall have to check the Trove Australian Newspapers site tomorrow, have to get off to bed, work in the morning :( Is this any help? Regards Sue ________________________________ Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:32:26 +0100 From: klein84@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [MAR] NEWBIE HERE To: sue_church@hotmail.co.uk CC: Mariners-L@rootsweb.com Hi Sue, Let me know the name of the ship, and the name of the captain (if mentioned), and we should find that some information about her progress on her passage will have been reported in the 19th century newspapers of the time. I can check these for you. The other website is the Trove Australian Newspapers site, which is free, and this should report her arrival at that end, if you have not already tried that one. Regards, PK ________________________________ From: Sue Church <sue_church@hotmail.co.uk> To: Mariners RootsWeb <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, 28 June, 2011 22:16:24 Subject: [MAR] NEWBIE HERE Hi List Newbie here, so be gentle with me. This is not a side of my research I've explored before, so bare with me. I have a journal for a relative who sailed from London to Brisbane in 1889. It has a lot of information on it, but parts are rather lacking in information. Can anyone suggest a possible site or link where I could find out more about the journey, I'm trying to plot the route they took, using the journal. I'm not sure if this is possible, but I'm giving it a go. Any help or suggestions, would be much appreciated. RegardsSue ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue Church" <sue_church@hotmail.co.uk> To: "Mariners RootsWeb" <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 7:16 AM Subject: [MAR] NEWBIE HERE > > Hi List > Newbie here, so be gentle with me. > This is not a side of my research I've explored before, so bare with me. I > have a journal for a relative who sailed from London to Brisbane in 1889. > It has a lot of information on it, but parts are rather lacking in > information. > Can anyone suggest a possible site or link where I could find out more > about the journey, I'm trying to plot the route they took, using the > journal. I'm not sure if this is possible, but I'm giving it a go. Hi Sue A great many newspapers are on line these days ......... http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper select Advanced search > type in name of ship and 1889 and see what pops out . Can be a story or just notice of arrival I would think the Qld State Archives and probably the National Library could be interested in a transcription Bye MargM Beautiful NSW Central Coast Australia

Hi Sue What is the name of the ship? Newspapers might help - sometimes in the shipping columns you will see where one ship sighted another somewhere out in the ocean and they report it when they get to port or the may be a report of something that happened during the voyage. In particular check the newspapers on the 25th and 50th anniversaries of the arrival in Brisbane. I found passengers reminiscing about the voyage of the Darling Downs in 1874 25 years later. The newspapers are searchable now at Trove at the National Library. Have you looked at the Qld State Archives for any other journals diaries etc? Log of Logs all 3 volumes may also have information on where other similar documents are. The passenger list also sometimes says that they dropped passengers off at other ports on the way to Brisbane. Regards Lyn In Brisbane Oz. > -----Original Message----- > From: mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:mariners-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sue Church > Sent: Wednesday, 29 June 2011 7:16 AM > To: Mariners RootsWeb > Subject: [MAR] NEWBIE HERE > > > Hi List > Newbie here, so be gentle with me. > This is not a side of my research I've explored before, so > bare with me. I have a journal for a relative who sailed from > London to Brisbane in 1889. It has a lot of information on > it, but parts are rather lacking in information. > Can anyone suggest a possible site or link where I could find > out more about the journey, I'm trying to plot the route they > took, using the journal. I'm not sure if this is possible, > but I'm giving it a go. > Any help or suggestions, would be much appreciated. > RegardsSue > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Mick This has been happening for some time on all lists It depends what server it goes through as to whether it gets to the list If it gets rejected, people need to try again (and again) until it gets through Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Hi Listers > > Just to let you all know that we are aware that some members are experiencing problems sending > messages to the Mariners List, this we believe is caused by a mis- configuration in the rootsweb > spam filters. Ron has contacted Rootsweb and we are awaiting a response. Any members who have been > locked out could you please email me at info@mariners-l.co.uk as I would like to get a head count, > I won't reply just need a count. > > > Thank You > > > Mick O Rourke > > Mariners List

In a message dated 6/28/2011 2:20:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, sue_church@hotmail.co.uk writes: I have a journal for a relative who sailed from London to Brisbane in 1889. Hi Sue ~ Your journal sounds like it should be an interesting document. I too have a daily journal documenting a trip from Liverpool to Melbourne in 1853. Here and there during the trip south in the Atlantic, the diarest noted the ship's position (latitude/longitude), then after they rounded the Cape of Good Hope and headed across to Australia, he noted the ship's position on a daily basis. If your journal contains latitude and longitude notations like this (or if you find lat./long. references for the ship in historical newspapers, as others have suggested), you can use a website like iTouchMap.com to plot the positions on a map and trace the route of the journey. Good luck with your project. Harold

Hi Listers Just to let you all know that we are aware that some members are experiencing problems sending messages to the Mariners List, this we believe is caused by a mis- configuration in the rootsweb spam filters. Ron has contacted Rootsweb and we are awaiting a response. Any members who have been locked out could you please email me at info@mariners-l.co.uk as I would like to get a head count, I won't reply just need a count. Thank You Mick O Rourke Mariners List

Hi List Newbie here, so be gentle with me. This is not a side of my research I've explored before, so bare with me. I have a journal for a relative who sailed from London to Brisbane in 1889. It has a lot of information on it, but parts are rather lacking in information. Can anyone suggest a possible site or link where I could find out more about the journey, I'm trying to plot the route they took, using the journal. I'm not sure if this is possible, but I'm giving it a go. Any help or suggestions, would be much appreciated. RegardsSue

HI Adi, Many thanks for the link to the Hathitrust.org site, as you say printing/saving the page instead of just the extract looks better. Regards Mike Morson -----Original Message----- From: Mme_N_Carmichael [mailto:mme_n_carmichael@yahoo.ca] Sent: 28 June 2011 18:07 To: Marinerslist; Mike Morson Subject: Re: [MAR] George Morson 1762-1841-MARINER Hello Mike, I'm assuming that you mean this website? http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/lloydslist/ You can also see the actual Lloyd's List newspapers at: http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000549597 You may pick up a few more citations there. The OCR makes a lot of mistakes, so best to search more than once - by ship name, by surname, by spelling variants of surname. For the citations you already have, it will be nice to be able to print out the actual newspaper piece, rather than just the abstract. Regards, Adi --- On Tue, 6/21/11, Mike Morson <m.morson@ntlworld.com> wrote: .... I have come across various records of a George Morson being the Captain of a SLOOP called the "UNITY" between 1793-1826 operating between various south of England Ports including Rochester,Dover, & London in "Lloyds List Marine News 1740-1837" index.

Replying on behalf of Ted . Mick . Alan, The Duffield built in 1893 for Hunting & Son, Newcastle (O.N.101848) was sold in 1901 to the Anglo-American Oil Co and renamed Appalachee, 1926 sold to Italy renamed Clizia, 1942 taken over by Germans, 1944 scuttled in River Gironde by retreating Germans. The Duffield which was sailing after WWI was built in 1906 for Hunting & Son (O.N.122865). 1925 sold to Cia Nav. Pereda, Panama renamed Fernando, 1927 transferred to Bilbao registry, 1932 scrapped. She was a cargo ship, regards Ted ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan To: mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 11:45 AM Subject: [MAR] Information on the Duffield

Replying on behalf of Ted . Mick . Harold, HUDSON was a case oil carrier, built 1900 by Sunderland Shipbuilding Co for Standard Oil. O.N.112704. Length 356ft x beam 45ft, 3,679 gross tons. 1911 sold to Tatsuma Nisen KK, Japan renamed Hudson Maru, 1931 sold to Nippon Godo KK, r/n Nagato Maru, 1934 sold to Nippon Suisan KK, r/n Toten Maru. 11th June 1944 torpedoed and sunk in position 46.58N 143.50E by USS Barb. She was probably delivering cased oil to China / Japan via Cape Horn As early as 1892 Standard Oil Co began carrying oil across the Atlantic and even round the Horn to San Francisco and Japan. regards Ted ----- Original Message ----- From: Hwabz@aol.com To: mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 1:59 AM Subject: [MAR] Standard Oil steamer Hudson

Replying on behalf of Ted who is having difficulty accessing the list. Mick Hello Joan, Have you seen the article on Lloyds Registers at http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/ResLloydsRegister.htm regards Ted ----- Original Message ----- From: Joan Fawcett To: mariners-l@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 1:11 AM Subject: [MAR] Reliability of Lloyds Registers ??

Hello Jenny, Peter Holford is perfectly right about the accuracy of the Lloyd's registers, although after 1840 things do get steadily better, as the underwriters needed more reliable information. You can usually tell the date of more recent information about a vessel from the annotations under the main line of the entry - when the ship was re-sheathed in copper, last repaired, or last surveyed. Larger shipping companies would insure a number of vessels, and it might be convenient for the masters to exchange commands from time to time, or take time out to recuperate from illness. The ship movements noted in the newspapers are a good way of keeping up with who was in command, although with a common ship name this can be confusing, and one has to construct a "grid" to keep tabs on who is sailing where and when. By about 1880 many papers no longer bothered to name the masters, possibly because they were not told, or because the owners might wish to be flexible about arrangements. Local shipping often never got into Lloyd's registers, because underwriters were not needed to insure cargoes that were bought by the shipowners on loading, and resold at a profit at the destination. It was only when valuable cargoes belonging to merchants were carried overseas using someone else's ship, that merchant and shipowner needed to be covered for any loss or damage. Ten or twelve weeks at sea could be eventful, especially in the tropics. Regards, PK ________________________________ From: Joan Fawcett <jfawcett@hotkey.net.au> To: mariners-l@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, 28 June, 2011 1:11:04 Subject: [MAR] Reliability of Lloyds Registers ?? has anyone any experience as to how reliable Lloyds Shipping Registers were ? My dilemma is this: I am chasing James Dillon, who in 1827 was in command of the ENTERPRIZE / Enterprise, 151t, Heaviside owner. Dillon took the vessel from London to Bombay via Deal, with a supercargo who took over the command of the vessel once they got to Bombay. >From 1828 neither Dillon nor the Enterprise can be found in Lloyds or other India shipping records (online at least). And in 1828 a vessel called the Enterprize was wrecked enroute from Bombay to Pondicherry (her master's name was Cook). And from 1828 I cannot find Dillon in command of other vessels. But whilst researching in the 1830's Lloyds registers, I found that in 1834 the Enterprize suddenly shows up again on the Lloyds registers, with James Dillon in command, 152 tons, J. Allan as her owner, and of the port of London, but no other details for this and subsequent years. With a bit of research I found that in 1834 the societies who published the Register Books of shipping annually finished up, and this new (and subsequent) editions were LLOYDS REGISTER OF BRITISH AND FOREIGN SHIPPING, established 1834. So, did the Enterprize keep function with Dillon as master and simply escape the attention of the Lloyds registers from 1828 - 1833, or, when this new LLoyds began in 1834, were they accessing/using outdated ships registers/information ? cheers Jenny Fawcett ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you Ted and Mick. The information you gave was a great help and ties in nicely with information I have about other ships my grandfather was on after WW1 as they were all owned by Anglo American Oil. It was the change of name which threw me. Alan

I eventually found it! The St Georges Steamship Company originated in Dublin and Liverpool and expanded to all the other major ports during the 1830s - London, Bristol, Hull, etc. However in Liverpool and Dublin they started calling themselves "His Majesty's War Office Steam Packets". They even used the royal coat of arms at the top of their adverts! In Hansard (26 August 1831 vol 6 cc668-9) Mr George Lamb, under-secretary for the Home Department said: "There was no doubt, that such a practice as that was wrong, and ought to be discontinued. Such a practice was highly objectionable in the steam-packet offices in Liverpool, and in other ports, which offices had no connexion with the Government, for strangers were thereby induced to believe, that the vessels from such offices, being in the service of Government, were of a superior description. The circumstance had arisen from the practice of the War-office contracting with such steam-packet offices for the transport of troops, but it was a thing that should be put a stop to." This gives an impression of a system that was in tune with the worst practices of early capitalism that was prevalent in the factories and mills at the same time. It also shows a Pontius Pilate type hand-wringing with a government minister acting as though it's really beyond his control. Don't expect Lloyds to be totally accurate! They were probably doing the best they could to get the data correct! Regards Peter Holford

Hello Sue,   Hello Sue,   Does this journal give the ship's name and/or master's name (smile)? If we had name(s), it might be possible to find some mentions of places or 'speakings' in the shipping news columns of 19thC newspapers.   Regards, Adi --- On Tue, 6/28/11, Sue Church <sue_church@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: Hi List Newbie here, so be gentle with me. This is not a side of my research I've explored before, so bare with me. I have a journal for a relative who sailed from London to Brisbane in 1889. It has a lot of information on it, but parts are rather lacking in information. Can anyone suggest a possible site or link where I could find out more about the journey, I'm trying to plot the route they took, using the journal. I'm not sure if this is possible, but I'm giving it a go. Any help or suggestions, would be much appreciated. RegardsSue

Hi Joan I spent a few months tracking down my gg-grandfather, James Wood, who was captaining steamships out of the Humber in the 1830s. It also drew me into looking at the other early pioneers in steamships on the Humber. I downloaded the Lloyds Registers for the years before 1850 and I used the lists of shipping movements as published in the local papers. I'm pretty sure they were supplied by Lloyds. I soon found out that the two sources of info were barely alike. The Lloyds lists were often out of date in respect to the captain, some ships were not registered even though there was evidence that they were sailing between Hull and Hamburg regularly and I even found instances of where a captain was in charge of more than one ship! The St George Steam Packet Company was a concern that seemed to be very cavalier with registering ships - very few of their Hull ships seemed to make it onto the Register. In fact they were passing themselves off in the Irish Sea as a different company with a name that implied they were a government concern (I can't remember the exact name at the moment- I have it somewhere on my computer!). This led to questions in the House of Commons about this unacceptable practice! It seems that the early lists were as good as the info supplied by the shipping owners. Some was good, some was indifferent and some was non-existent. Usually the Register lagged a year or two behind the facts. A change of captain was seen immediately in the shipping movements but would not appear in the Registers until at least a year later. I have no experience of researching them after 1840 - hopefully they became more reliable. Regards Peter Holford On 28/06/2011 01:11, Joan Fawcett wrote: > has anyone any experience as to how reliable Lloyds Shipping Registers were > ? > > My dilemma is this: > > I am chasing James Dillon, who in 1827 was in command of the ENTERPRIZE / > Enterprise, 151t, Heaviside owner. > Dillon took the vessel from London to Bombay via Deal, with a supercargo who > took over the command of the vessel once they got to Bombay. > > > From 1828 neither Dillon nor the Enterprise can be found in Lloyds or other > India shipping records (online at least). > And in 1828 a vessel called the Enterprize was wrecked enroute from Bombay > to Pondicherry (her master's name was Cook). > And from 1828 I cannot find Dillon in command of other vessels. > > But whilst researching in the 1830's Lloyds registers, I found that in 1834 > the Enterprize suddenly shows up again on the Lloyds registers, with James > Dillon in command, 152 tons, J. Allan as her owner, and of the port of > London, but no other details for this and subsequent years. > > With a bit of research I found that in 1834 the societies who published the > Register Books of shipping annually finished up, and this new (and > subsequent) editions were > LLOYDS REGISTER OF BRITISH AND FOREIGN SHIPPING, established 1834. > > > So, did the Enterprize keep function with Dillon as master and simply escape > the attention of the Lloyds registers from 1828 - 1833, or, when this new > LLoyds began in 1834, were they accessing/using outdated ships > registers/information ? > > > cheers > Jenny Fawcett > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Alan Built A Willington Quay 1894. Her name changed to Appalochee in 1901. She was owned in 1920 by Anglo- American Oil Company Ltd,London. Register closed: 1926 There was another Duffield (122865) built in 1906 she was still named Duffield in 1920. Reference : Mercantile Navy Lists 1896 to 1820 Mick Mariners List ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan To: mariners@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 11:45 AM Subject: [MAR] Information on the Duffield

Can anyone help me find information on the ship Duffield, built in 1894 (unique ID 101848). I believe it was built in Willington Quay, Tyneside but can't find any other information. I am particularly interested in who owned it and its voyages just after the end of WW1 when I know my grandfather was a member of the crew. Thanks Alan

My understanding is that the central index register of merchant seamen did not start until 1913. Those original records are in the city archives in Southampton and on microfiche in the National Archives in Kew. Alan On 27/06/2011 12:18, Howard Benson hdb-at-hotkey.net.au |Mariners L| wrote: > I read some where that there are records in England that list all mariners with a unique number that details the ships they sailed on. Is any one able to give me contact details of who would hold these records? >