Piers said that ship chandlers make ship chests. The children of my ggg were born in NYC. One moved to Cleveland and became the first ship chandler and sail maker. I had looked up about what ship chandlers do on Wikipedia but had seen nothing about them making these chests. Captain Swain was about 30 when he moved to NYC. So now this presents an interesting situation. Did the Captain's trunks come from Nantucket with him before he moved to NYC as Piers suggested, or would his son have made them for him, or even studied ship chandlery under his father?. Is this really something that they all do? I didn't realize that he was nearly 30 when he is first found in NYC directories. I have looked at his son's ads in Cleveland city directories, and he advertises a bit differently each time. Not all city directories are available but there is quite a bit about cordage and sails, and other supplies being available. In one he even says that they supply the ships that go with their supplies. Since I found pages on Google that said he owned some ships I am not sure what exactly was going on. If anyone has some insight or thoughts on the subject, let me know. Sue

Hadn't expected the contents of Walter NICOL's sea chest to create any excitement. The voyage from Liverpool to Bombay was planned to last, if required, up to 3 years. The crew agreement said: > The several Persons whose names are hereto subscribed, and whose > descriptions are contained below, and of whom 19 are engaged as > Sailors, hereby agree > to serve on board the said Ship, in the several capacities expressed > against their respective Names, on a Voyage from Liverpool to Bombay > thence (if required) to any ports and places in the Indian Pacific & > Atlantic Ocean and China and Eastern Leas (thence to a port for orders > and to the C..... port if required and back to a final port of > discharge > in the United Kingdom, term not to exceed 3 years ~~ Another written addition to the crew agreement said > That the Crew shall consist of 3 Mates > Carpr., Bsw, Steward and Cook, 15 Seamen and 4 Ords. No Grog > allowed. As master of the "Cursetjee Furdongee" Walter NICOL would have been expected to meet with on-shore business contacts in the ports where the ship anchored. That might account for the silk umbrella which a native of Anstruther, Fife might have found necessary for protection against the heat and sun in Bombay, etc. Also the mittens would make life more bearable as the ship sailed in the southern part of the Atlantic Ocean. As circumstances dictated the "C F" returned to Liverpool and the entire crew was discharged 31 Mar 1866 fourteen months after leaving Liverpool. Cursetjee Furdongee, the namesake of the ship, was a well-off Bombay merchant. Norma On 18-Jul-11, at 4:08 PM, Piers Smith-Cresswell wrote: > > You're right, what he would actually take with him would depend on > the type > and length of voyages he was making. If Swain usually traded > between NYC > and the West Indies, he probably wouldn't need so many changes of > clothes > because the voyages weren't so long. Nicol, on the other hand, died > on a > voyage from London to India via the Cape of Good Hope which took > over 3 > months and could have taken longer. Given that fresh water was > usually > extremely limited (on British ships, the ration was usually 8 pints > per man > per day for all purposes, including steeping the salt off salted meat, > cooking and washing up), it may explain why Nichol had so many of > some types > of clothing and so few of others. I would hazard a guess that > trousers and > towels (good thick British woollens no doubt) would have needed lots > of > water in laundering, and so they probably had to wait until the end > of the > voyage to be washed, whereas underwear and socks could be washed in > a bowl > with a little water once a week! As for the collars, of which the > inventory > notes Nichol had 54 of assorted types, he I would guess that he > intended to > wear each for a couple of days before it went into the wash bag to > await the > dhobi-wallah (washerman) in Bombay! > > I don't know how long it takes to sail between NY and the West > Indies - a > month maybe? Less? - but Captain Swain wouldn't have needed to stock > up to > the same extent. His list would probably have included similar > things, but > maybe not so many. > > If you want to have a better idea of what Swain took with him, you > really > need an inventory for a deceased master (or mate) from an American > East > Coast vessel on a similar type of voyage. This is a bit specialist of > course! Have you tried Mystic Seaport http://www.mysticseaport.org/ ? > > Piers > > > > > > > > > > > > Pier- that is very interesting. I wonder if I can find some books on > that at the BYU library. I got so interested in Nantucket, that I > read 8 > books on it, bought a few, and would love to go there, but can't. > They > say that if you are related to someone from Nantucket that you have > millions of ancestors in this country. It is a fascinating place, > and I > suspect that he left due to the privations they always suffered as > well > as the fact that whaling was very dangerous. Just working for > merchants > would be much safer and apparently he had fascinating adventures all > around the world. I found six of his letters, written from the West > Indies, in the NYHistorical Society, while he was working in 1815-16 > for Lynch and Amar, merchants in NYC. He is a dead ringer for Robert > Burns, also, even though his ancestors go back to England. > I don't think the link to the ship chest made it to the sight, and > it is > gorgeous- unless I just didn't see it there. I am also wondering about > the difference in Brittish and American shipping. > > Sue > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message >

on Mon, 18 Jul 2011 Gordon Evans wrote Belated thanks to Ron, Andy, David, Rod & Colin for their interesting & informative responses to my post. A cargo of potential munitions-timers, heading for a wartime 'spy-hotbed' port, would seem good enough reason for the CHASSERAL to have been targetted by the RAF. >>>>>>>>> Bearing in mind the near-contemporaneous multiple attacks on the Swedish Red Cross ship mentioned earlier, it might be premature to imply that this was an intelligence-led deliberate attack. I have no idea at the moment whether the RAF had any information on the cargo of intended voyage of the CHASSERAL, but have seen it claimed that three was at that time a degree of "if it moves, hit it" in the Western Med. Probably the files at Kew will clarify this. David

Further to the interesting information so far, does anyone have any ideas what might have been classed as equipment for a 17th century quartermaster? I have a copy of a will which leaves all of his equipment to friends and I wondered what he might have had. Thanks Frances

In regards to Piers remarks about my ship captain: It is hard to figure out all that he did. I have looked at numerous ship ads, and since he is the only Captain Swain at that time, and they don't use the first name, I assume that these ads are for him. On the back of his photo/portrait, it says he sailed passenger ships between NYC and Liverpool, or someplace in England. But I have yet to find out about that. I also found one record on Google of a trip he made. He looked like and dressed like Robert Burns. But if he acted as ship master, what would he wear? Did he sail the ship? Did someone else do it? I am getting more and more curious about this entire subject. Sue

I think Norma's post answers Sue's question! Making allowances, of course, for Sue's chap being a bit earlier in the century (presumably Crimean shirts post-dated the Crimean war). Chronometers for example would still been beyond the means of most masters c.1825. As I understand it, the ship's compasses were fixed to and were part of the vessel's equipment, but masters provided their own charts, sailing directions, sextant, barometer, and other navigational equipment, and this is borne out by the inventory of Capt. Nichol's possessions. In attaching the link to the photo of the sea chest, I should have said that that was a rather superior example. The late Captain Nicol's chests were of deal, which is rather less exotic than camphorwood, and many of the examples one finds in maritime antique shops or museums (try Googling "seaman's chest" and variations) are of deal or pine. Presumably as Captain Swain came from Nantucket, it would be likely that he acquired his first sea-chest from a chandler there and that it was made from a local wood.

FOR INFORMATION I approved the posting of this message re Pamela. Although she was not currently in membership on Mariners' List it may be some of you have had contact with her in the past, and would wish to have this sad information. Ron Mapplebeck Joint Administrator -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [MAR] Pamela Brown Courtney Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 13:20:37 -0400 From: Pamela C <peppercrg51@hotmail.com> My name is Michael, a long time friend of Pamela. It is with great sadness that I advise you of Pamela's passing away on July 12, 2011. I know many of you, particularly if you are on her Facebook page, are already aware. However, one step at a time, I am trying to see all of her wishes through. One of her wishes was that I send this notification to everyone in her Address Book. There will be no formal services. Donations may be made in her name to the American Cancer Society. Should you want to contact me, my home number is 502 222-4034 or you can reach me by email at rider1950@hotmail.com. May she forever rest in peace. Pamela's Motto: G. L. Baker: "I believe that friends are quiet angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly" Hope is the thing with feathers that perches in the soul, and sings the tune without the words, and never stops at all! Life is too short for drama & petty things; so kiss slowly,laugh insanely, Love truly and forgive quickly! ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Piers sent the following valuable info and here was my answer to him- I think Norma's post answers Sue's question! Making allowances, of course, for Sue's chap being a bit earlier in the century (presumably Crimean shirts post-dated the Crimean war). Chronometers for example would still been beyond the means of most masters c.1825. As I understand it, the ship's compasses were fixed to and were part of the vessel's equipment, but masters provided their own charts, sailing directions, sextant, barometer, and other navigational equipment, and this is borne out by the inventory of Capt. Nichol's possessions. In attaching the link to the photo of the sea chest, I should have said that that was a rather superior example. The late Captain Nicol's chests were of deal, which is rather less exotic than camphorwood, and many of the examples one finds in maritime antique shops or museums (try Googling "seaman's chest" and variations) are of deal or pine. Presumably as Captain Swain came from Nantucket, it would be likely that he acquired his first sea-chest from a chandler there and that it was made from a local wood. Pier- that is very interesting. I wonder if I can find some books on that at the BYU library. I got so interested in Nantucket, that I read 8 books on it, bought a few, and would love to go there, but can't. They say that if you are related to someone from Nantucket that you have millions of ancestors in this country. It is a fascinating place, and I suspect that he left due to the privations they always suffered as well as the fact that whaling was very dangerous. Just working for merchants would be much safer and apparently he had fascinating adventures all around the world. I found six of his letters, written from the West Indies, in the NYHistorical Society, while he was working in 1815-16 for Lynch and Amar, merchants in NYC. He is a dead ringer for Robert Burns, also, even though his ancestors go back to England. I don't think the link to the ship chest made it to the sight, and it is gorgeous- unless I just didn't see it there. I am also wondering about the difference in Brittish and American shipping. Sue

An example of contents in a ship master's chests for a voyage from Liverpool to Bombay in 1865 (MHA, St. John's, Nfld). Death of Captain Walter Nicol, Cursetjee Furdoonjee, from the Official Log Book: "May 28th 1865 at 130 P. M. lat. 40 degrees 11 South long. 20 degrees 30 East We Sailed from Liverpool in the Ship "Cursetjee Furdoonjee" on a Voyage to Bombay. At 8 A.M. on the 1st of April, Captn Walter Nicol joined the Ship in the River. Weighed Anchor and proceeded down the River. The Tug-Boat Knight Templar Towing the Vessel. April 2nd. The Knight Templar left us off the Tusker. Captn. Nicol came on Deck to look at the Light House, but only remained a few Minutes on Deck as he was very poorly, on the 3rd inst. he told me to take care of the Ship, as he was not able to interfere with anything, he gave me Charge of the Chronometer and everything concerning the Ship, in fact he gave me full charge of the Ship; he was then confined to his bed, getting worse every day as we went on. I offered him to call at St. Vincent, but he would not. While on the Coast of Brazil seeing he was declining fast, I offered him to put him at Rio Janeiro, but he would not, he Continued weaker & weaker every day, till May 28th when he Breathed his last, at 1-30 P.M. his body was worn out to a mere shadow, his decease was, we had anticipated a Decline, a Putrid Sore Throat, and an ulcerated leg. At 5 P.M. Burried him in the deep, his leg being badly mortified. (signed) Francis Norman Mate George Anderson 2nd Mate William Johnson Steward William Lindsay Carpenter " -------- "May 28th 1865, 3 p. m. Took an Inventory of the Deceased Captn Nicol 28 Pair of Trousers. 1 pair Shoes 14 Pocket Hangerchief. 5 Caps & Hats 19 Pair Stockings. 3 Pair Boots 12 Vests. 3 Blanket. 1 Hat Brush 2 Pair Parallel Rules. 1 Silk Umbrella 4 Crimean Shirts. 2 Comforters 12 Singlets. 1 Mattress Cover 1 Bed Rug. 1 Quadrant 6 Pair Drawers, 1 Paper Box 4 Bags. 8 Coats. 1 Barometer 3 Doz paper Collars. 1 Hat Box & Hat 3 Pair Braces. 10 Neck Ties 1 1/2 Doz Linen Collars. 1 Portefollio 3 Pair Mittens. 17 Towells 3 Pair Cotton Sheets. 1 Sextant 1 Hair Mattress, 1 Sumpisometer 8 Pillow Slips. 1 Chronometer 1 Writing Desk, 1 Silver Watch & Gold Chain A Purse Containing 4£ 10s in Gold 10/6 in Silver. 3 Pence and 6 penny ! Small Box containing sundry medicine. 1 Chest of Books 2 Deal Chests. 1 Box Containing sundry Papers. 2 Pair Dividers 10 Striped Shirts 21 White Ditto 1 Cloths Brush 1 Ennema 1 Chart Box containing 33 Charts (signed) Francis Norman Master William Lindsay Carpenter Wm Johnson Steward " When the ship arrived in Bombay in early July an auction was held of the belongings. Most went to crew members. James Horsburgh, O. S., age16 or 17, formerly on the Annie Walker of Anstruther, bought the quadrant. James was likely Capt. Nicol's nephew. Norma On 17-Jul-11, at 9:10 PM, Piers Smith-Cresswell wrote: When he owned them, they would have contained his clothes, books, and other personal possessions. They might have looked something like this at http://tinyurl.com/6awr6yn Piers Sent from my iPod On 17 Jul 2011, at 21:50, Sue Maxwell <suemaxwell@comcast.net> wrote: I recently found an article that referred to my ggg grandfather, Shubael Swain, who was a ship master, who moved from Nantucket to NYC. He did his sailing there between 1810 and 1840ish. This article was written many years after his death, but was about his son's family, who had moved to Cleveland. They talked about owning his sea chests, and I am just curious to know what might have been in them. Thanks, Sue

Belated thanks to Ron, Andy, David, Rod & Colin for their interesting & informative responses to my post. A cargo of potential munitions-timers, heading for a wartime 'spy-hotbed' port, would seem good enough reason for the CHASSERAL to have been targetted by the RAF. Gordon From: "Gordon Evans" <gordon.w.evans@btinternet.com> To: "Mariners" <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 6:50 PM Subject: [MAR] CHASSERAL ex INGELI (ON 108651) >There's a photograph of this vessel at :- >http://www.swiss-ships.ch/schiffe/chasseral_006/fr_chasseral_006.htm >and her history can be viewed by clicking on the union jack in the >left-hand >column. >I'm intrigued as to why a ship flying the neutral Swiss flag, and >travelling >from Marseilles to Lisbon in April 1944 with a cargo of clocks & watches, >should have been attacked & bombed by ten British Beaufighters? >Regards >Gordon

Hello Edie,   I can't help with all your questions - can't even find the article in The Bristol Mercury to which you refer, but here's a much later bit.   From:  SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE . Glasgow Herald (Glasgow, Scotland), Saturday, April 8, 1865; Issue 7879   "The Colombo, Evans, from Calcutta for Hull, was at anchor at Saugor until the cyclone of the 5th of October last, but has not since been heard of."   Regards, Adi   --- On Sat, 7/16/11, Edie McArthur <ediemc@bigpond.com> wrote: Has anyone any more details about the mariner Robert Evans who was by 1864 a Captain Robert Evans who had the misfortune of being aboard the "Colombo" in the awful Cyclone at Calcutta in October of 1864. I have seen one report in the Bristol Mercury where it states he was washed overboard along with a carpenter and two seaman.  I think there are three more articles in same newspaper for other weeks I haven't seen as yet.  Does anyone belong to this family please.  He was married to Mary Ann Tucker in the Gloucestershire area in 1852.  Mary Ann was born in Somerset. It isn't completely known for sure if This Robert Evans who married Mary was a Captain by 1864 but he was definitely a mariner and a family member has a memorial plague of sorts to state he was with the Colombo when she went down. Does anyone know where such a plague can be found please. Edie

When he owned them, they would have contained his clothes, books, and other personal possessions. They might have looked something like this at http://tinyurl.com/6awr6yn Piers Sent from my iPod On 17 Jul 2011, at 21:50, Sue Maxwell <suemaxwell@comcast.net> wrote: > I recently found an article that referred to my ggg grandfather, Shubael > Swain, who was a ship master, who moved from Nantucket to NYC. He did > his sailing there between 1810 and 1840ish. This article was written > many years after his death, but was about his son's family, who had > moved to Cleveland. They talked about owning his sea chests, and I am > just curious to know what might have been in them. > > Thanks, > > Sue > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Wow- what a gorgeous photo,Piers. He owned a ship called The Experiment of New York, and I have a sepia poster of it, but the article said that this family had the original- it looks like a water color to me. He was supposed to have died at sea in NY with his brother in 1808, but I went to a workshop and proved that he did not die but that is brother did. I have no idea how it happened, but my theory is that he took this ship up to Nantucket to pick up his brother and bring him back to NYC to work in the shipping business. He already had one brother living there who was a mariner. Exactly what happened in NY, I am unsure of, but it must have devastated him as he named his first son after this brother who died. I found the proof in his father's 1812 will and he was still alive but his brother wasn't. I know all about him, and exactly where and when he died and was buried. It has been a really amazing experience, so this article interested me more. What kind of equipment would he have had- for example, what were compasses like at that time? And what other instruments might he have carried with him? Sue

I recently found an article that referred to my ggg grandfather, Shubael Swain, who was a ship master, who moved from Nantucket to NYC. He did his sailing there between 1810 and 1840ish. This article was written many years after his death, but was about his son's family, who had moved to Cleveland. They talked about owning his sea chests, and I am just curious to know what might have been in them. Thanks, Sue

My name is Michael, a long time friend of Pamela. It is with great sadness that I advise you of Pamela's passing away on July 12, 2011. I know many of you, particularly if you are on her Facebook page, are already aware. However, one step at a time, I am trying to see all of her wishes through. One of her wishes was that I send this notification to everyone in her Address Book. There will be no formal services. Donations may be made in her name to the American Cancer Society. Should you want to contact me, my home number is 502 222-4034 or you can reach me by email at rider1950@hotmail.com. May she forever rest in peace. Pamela's Motto: G. L. Baker: "I believe that friends are quiet angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly" Hope is the thing with feathers that perches in the soul, and sings the tune without the words, and never stops at all! Life is too short for drama & petty things; so kiss slowly,laugh insanely, Love truly and forgive quickly!

Hi Has anyone any more details about the mariner Robert Evans who was by 1864 a Captain Robert Evans who had the misfortune of being aboard the "Colombo" in the awful Cyclone at Calcutta in October of 1864. I have seen one report in the Bristol Mercury where it states he was washed overboard along with a carpenter and two seaman. I think there are three more articles in same newspaper for other weeks I haven't seen as yet. Does anyone belong to this family please. He was married to Mary Ann Tucker in the Gloucestershire area in 1852. Mary Ann was born in Somerset. It isn't completely known for sure if This Robert Evans who married Mary was a Captain by 1864 but he was definitely a mariner and a family member has a memorial plague of sorts to state he was with the Colombo when she went down. Does anyone know where such a plague can be found please. Edie

Hello Everyone Can anyone provide me with any details of voyages of the above vessel? The Fame of Banff was built in 1813 in Sunderland and was under the command of Alexander Raffan of Macduff. Any and all help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Kind regards Gordon Troup

Hello Michelle, Further to my last, it appears that Creamore was sailing under the command of a captain Kemp from as early as 1848, when she set sail for Newfoundland on June 15th. They again sailed for Newfoundland on December 17th, in the same year; and then again on July 27, 1852 (these are all references from the Liverpool Mercury). It seems possible therefore the Thomas Kemp was already an experienced master before his certification in 1850, unless he had succeeded to the command from a related namesake. The Lord John Russell also sailed for Pernambuco from Liverpool under a Kemp in late August 1852, but whether this would have allowed enough time for him to get back from Newfoundland seems uncertain. It is plausible that more than than one member of the Kemp family was commanding these ships at this time. Regards, PK ________________________________ From: Michelle Wilson <micpaint.wilson@gmail.com> To: Mariners-L@rootsweb.com Cc: Maritime Museum-Liverpool <Maritime.history@nmgm.org> Sent: Friday, 15 July, 2011 13:21:59 Subject: [MAR] Ship Information Hello Mariner enthusiasts I hope someone out there can head me in the right direction. I have absolutely no knowledge about sailing ships but I have 3 generations of Thomas Kemps 1,2, & 3 that were mariners out of Liverpool (1770's to 1870's) and all eventually achieved their Master Mariner Certificates. I am only able to confirm the names of the last Capt. Kemp #3's ships. The Creamore and the Lord John Russell (1850-1854) Barracuda #21,005 (1858-1863); Merrie Olde England (1863-1864). My problem is How can I find out what ships Captains #1 and #2 commanded and also how can I find out if any of these ships have any interesting stories (shipwrecks, mutinies etc.) connected with them? Also how can I find out when each of these three men acquired their Master mariner certificates and their numbers? Michelle Wilson Vermont USA ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Michelle, Further to Bryan's posting, the only Thomas Kemp appearing in the Mercantile Navy Lists during the mid 19th-century passed his examination as a Master 1st Class in 1850 at Liverpool, certificate #2797. Certification had only started in November 1845, so before that a master would have served his apprenticeship in the old-fashioned way. I am assuming therefore that this Thomas Kemp is probably your #3, apparently born in 1820 The 1853 MNL lists him as master of the Creamore, bound from London to North America. He was still the only certificated master named Thomas Kemp when listed in the MNL for 1864. Regards, PK ________________________________ From: Michelle Wilson <micpaint.wilson@gmail.com> To: Mariners-L@rootsweb.com Cc: Maritime Museum-Liverpool <Maritime.history@nmgm.org> Sent: Friday, 15 July, 2011 13:21:59 Subject: [MAR] Ship Information Hello Mariner enthusiasts I hope someone out there can head me in the right direction. I have absolutely no knowledge about sailing ships but I have 3 generations of Thomas Kemps 1,2, & 3 that were mariners out of Liverpool (1770's to 1870's) and all eventually achieved their Master Mariner Certificates. I am only able to confirm the names of the last Capt. Kemp #3's ships. The Creamore and the Lord John Russell (1850-1854) Barracuda #21,005 (1858-1863); Merrie Olde England (1863-1864). My problem is How can I find out what ships Captains #1 and #2 commanded and also how can I find out if any of these ships have any interesting stories (shipwrecks, mutinies etc.) connected with them? Also how can I find out when each of these three men acquired their Master mariner certificates and their numbers? Michelle Wilson Vermont USA ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

KEMP, Thomas, b.Liverpool 1820 C30787 Liverpool 1850 vol.9 1851-1864; vol.51 no voyages listed. KEMP, Thomas Henry b.. Liverpool 1853 C05868 changed to 09614 vol.36 Liverpool 1879 The above are from http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/capsk.pdf You need to find the nearest place where you can look up the Lloyds Captains Register(s) quoted above a vol.. They give the ships names and year that they will have been on the ships. But not the voyages You say they had master's certificates, then apply to http://www.nmm.ac.uk/upload/pdf/masters_certificate_order_form.pdf when they took their examination(s) Mate and Master they had to complete "An Application to be examined" form, which listed their seatime needed to take the exam. Often from Apprentice to mate's exam, and then from Mate to Master's Exam. These applications, if they have survived come with the certificate(s) you order. The certificate numbers are the same for Mate and Master, unless they lost their original see the change from 05868 to 09614 Regards Bryan www.swanseamariners,org.uk