My ggg grandfather, Shubael Swain, was a ship master in NYC for about 40 years. He sailed all over the place from what I can figure out and he was very distinguished and looked like Robert Burns. I have a photo/portrait of him. He originally came from Nantucket, but I think he preferred to not go after whales. Sad and difficult business. In Nantucket boys were apprentised to ship captains at age 12. While his obit merely says that he was a distinguished ship captain in NYC, here is a description of him years later. "Valentine Swain's father, of Quaker stock. grandfather of the late Isabella Ruth Swain, was born on Nantucket island in 1777, and became one of the famous old sea captains who sailed their clipper ships around the world and gathered strange cargoes and many adventures. A picture of his ship The Experiment, painted in 1807) and his sea chests are carefully preserved among the family trreasures." I have a poster copy of that ship. Wish I had the original, but the Cleveland historical society has his framed certificate of entrance into the NY Ship Master's Society. Amazing what you can dig up! Also they have a portrait of him and one of his daughters, and I have some original photos. While he sailed out of NYC, as I said the other day, during the year without summer, he was working for a group of merchants and mostly in the West Indies. I have a whole stack of possible trips he made that I now need to analyze. I am more interested in where he actually went after reading this newspaper article. Sue

Wooden Ships and Iron Men . Mick ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Monks To: Gordon Shank ; MARINERS@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [MAR] Characteristics of a Master Mariner Greetings, Perhaps a glimpse of one gentleman might help? Robert Karl Miethe rounded Cape Horn forty-two times, and was alive at age of 97 in 1974. He suffered injury during a storm whilst a master. A broken collarbone, one kneecap dislocated, and was gashed severely on the head. He supervised the setting and strapping of his shoulder, ordered the mate to knock back the kneecap with a belaying pin, and sew up the scalp. "Pinch the sides together and sew like a sailmaker". Twenty-four stitches later he returned to the deck to take charge. Peter

The "Rajah" of the Cunard Line, Captain W.R.D. Irvine, R.N.R., commander of the Berengaria retired in 1926 to spend the rest of his days in Southern France. Captain Irvine earned the nickname because of his unwavering enforcement of authority. He once held the Berengaria in port for 36 hours during a gale despite the fact J.P. Morgan was a passenger and anxious to get home to New York. When the Laconia went down off Ireland in 1917, Captain Irvine was the last to leave his ship and was picked up floating in the sea unconscious. When revived, crowds on shore were cheering him. "What's that noise" he inquired. When told it was applause for him, he replied "nonsense" Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mick" <mick@irishshipwrecks.com> To: "Mariners List" <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [MAR] Characteristics of a Master Mariner > Wooden Ships and Iron Men . > > Mick > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Peter Monks > To: Gordon Shank ; MARINERS@rootsweb.com > Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 12:27 PM > Subject: Re: [MAR] Characteristics of a Master Mariner > > > Greetings, > > Perhaps a glimpse of one gentleman might help? Robert Karl Miethe > rounded Cape Horn forty-two times, and was alive at age of 97 in 1974. He > suffered injury during a storm whilst a master. A broken collarbone, one > kneecap dislocated, and was gashed severely on the head. He supervised > the setting and strapping of his shoulder, ordered the mate to knock back > the kneecap with a belaying pin, and sew up the scalp. "Pinch the sides > together and sew like a sailmaker". Twenty-four stitches later he > returned to the deck to take charge. > > Peter > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3825 - Release Date: 08/10/11 >

Hi Gordon I too have a Master Mariner/Sea Captain I have traced all over the world. I found his obit it doesn't say much, to me it also says volumes. The following Obituary appeared in the Belfast Newsletter 4 November, 1869: DEATH OF CAPTAIN SHAW: Our readers will learn with regret from our paper of to-day the death of Captain Samuel Shaw, at the time of his decease, the oldest master mariner in Belfast. In early life he was a successful master in Langtry's line of packets in the Liverpool and London trades. For upwards of the last twenty years of his life he acted as clerk of ballast under the Belfast Harbour Commissioners. Through life he was remarkable for his knowledge of navigation, and devoted pursuit after its development. As an officer of the port he was revered by all on account of his many talents and quiet inoffensive disposition He was born about 1789. Regards Lyn In Oz.

Greetings, Perhaps a glimpse of one gentleman might help? Robert Karl Miethe rounded Cape Horn forty-two times, and was alive at age of 97 in 1974. He suffered injury during a storm whilst a master. A broken collarbone, one kneecap dislocated, and was gashed severely on the head. He supervised the setting and strapping of his shoulder, ordered the mate to knock back the kneecap with a belaying pin, and sew up the scalp. "Pinch the sides together and sew like a sailmaker". Twenty-four stitches later he returned to the deck to take charge. Peter On 2011-08-11, at 2:03 PM, "Gordon Shank" <gdshank@comcast.net> wrote: > Appreciating the generalization of the question I nevertheless was > interested in anyone's perspective as to the capabilities of a Master > Mariner during the 19th century. > > > > As close as I can determine my gg grandfather was a Sea Captain/Master > Mariner for 50+ years from the 1830's through the 1880's. > > > > His cargo often consisted of coal, pig iron, timber, sugar or molasses. On > many voyages he transported immigrants from the UK to Australia, New > Zealand, Canada or the United States. A few of his other more frequent > destinations included India, the Philippines, Singapore, Malta, Antigua, > Trinidad, Barbados, Brazil and Cuba. > > > > Other than a good working knowledge of the sea and sailing ships I suspect > MM's needed to be excellent leaders of men and capable of managing the > commercial aspects of these voyages. > > > > I would love to hear others' opinions on the topic. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Here is the link: *tinyurl.com/3cq2ent* The offshore whaling trade had a strong influence from New England mariners. This link is to Google Books, and an article from the 1830's that provides a thorough description of the roles in a whaler.

Peter The offshore whaling trade had a strong influence from New England mariners. This link is to Google Books, and an article from the 1830's that provides a thorough description of the roles in a whaler. Yes, there was a hierarchy of progression within the whaling industry of that period. Whale oil, and particularly spermacetti oil, was the illuminant and lubricant of choice, until the advent of large scale mineral oil production (petroleum) from the mid 19th century. cheers chris On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 9:37 PM, Peter Phillips <pphillip@bigpond.com>wrote: > ** > Hi Chris, > > Thanks very much for all your help and your annotations below. As I said I > am very ignorant of matters sailing! Is a line coiler a 'deckhand' who is > responsible for coiling up the anchor ropes, sail ropes etc.? Is a boat > steerer is someone who steered the boat out in the middle of an ocean and > only had to worry about steering a constant course? > > If James was recorded as a mate in 1816 does that mean he was progressing > up mariner's greasy pole'? Another quick question - do any of these job > descriptions give a clue to his age? > > When I was over in England last year I went to TNA at Kew and I think I > found the will for James Phillips but not a James Phillips from Middlesex. > My James came from Pembrokshire in Wales and the beneficiary was noted as > Diana - which I know to be his wife's name. I also found a petition to > Trinity House in the London Archives that had a lot of detail about James's > family which tied everything together really nicely. > > The big challenge I have is to find details of James's parents and his > siblings and I was hoping something in all these shipping records would give > me a clue. > > Thanks again for your help and also to Alex, Jenny and Julie for their > help. I find it amazing how much knowledge you have all accumulated and your > willingness to share it. > > Kind Regards > Peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Chris Maxworthy <cgmaxwor@gmail.com> > *To:* mariners-l <Mariners-L@rootsweb.com> > *Cc:* Peter Phillips <pphillip@bigpond.com> > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 10, 2011 12:57 AM > *Subject:* Re: [MAR] Details of James Phillips and the whaler Syren, > voyage 1816-18 > > Peter > > Regarding your maritime ancestor James Phillips, mate of the Syren whaler. > There is a Will at the TNA for a James Phillips, master mariner. Any chance > this is your chap? > *Will of James Phillips, Master Mariner of Lucas Street, Commercial Road, > Saint George , Middlesex 03 March 1817 ref: PROB 11/1590* > If this is your chap then it implies that Probate was granted while the > Syren was still on it's whaling voyage. I suppose it is possible, if say > James drowned at the Cape Verde islands or Madeira on the outbound voyage, > and news was passed via a returning ship. A copy of the Will should help > answer this - only A$6. *http://tinyurl.com/3tr8vnk* > > Again, care of the Jones books, some other items on the career of a James > Phillips are: > 10 Dec 1798 - crew on the General Boyd whaler, capt Howes Swain. Phillips > was line coiler. > 30 April 1799 - whaler Aurora, capt Stephen Macey; again as line coiler. > 16 Oct 1809 - whaler Charles, no capt named; served as Boat Steerer > Also, the voyage of the Syren ended with its return to London on 4 Dec 1818 > (LL 8.12.1818) > > CM > > On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Chris Maxworthy <cgmaxwor@gmail.com>wrote: > >> Peter, >> I can help. The best reference for starting out on whaling voyages in the >> South Seas is A.G.E. Jones two books, Ships Employed on the South Seas >> Trade. Here's the ref to locate a Library near you that holds the two sets >> http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/12068443 and >> http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/34743956. >> "Mac" Jones packed a lot of information into the two books that were >> published by Roebuck Press, so it can take some time to gain the full value >> of his research. Here is a part of what I found in the shipping movements >> volume [with my translation in brackets]: >> 1816 29.3 Deal 26 Syren Christie to SS. >> [29 March 1816 issue of Lloyds List (LL) reports that the Syren, commanded >> by Christie, departed Deal for the South Seas (SS) three days earlier, on >> 26th] >> >> 1816 3.9. Syren to SS, all well, 14.5 x 3N. >> [3 Sept 1816 issue of LL - steering for the South Seas - the Syren is >> abeam of the Gulf of Guinea and about 200 miles SW of Sierra Leone] >> >> 1818 17.2. Sir Charles Price at Downs from Timor, sld, 16 Oct; left >> there Syren, Ranger, Ocean. Sir A. Hammond sld for England 10 days before >> Sir C. Price. >> [17 Feb 1818 issue of LL - The whaler Sir Charles Price, having arrived >> back from her voyage to the South Seas reported that the Syren and other >> whalers had been at Timor with her back in Oct 1817] >> >> A great source of LL Marine News is the digitized copies of LL performed >> by Michael Dun. >> go to http://www.1812privateers.org/Bibliography/ >> Please note that AGE Jones also worked from the arrivals and departures >> intelligence in LL.. At this time this is not fully available in Michael's >> online resource - hence the possibility of Jones information not being >> locatable Michael's site. >> >> Other works of relevance are: >> John Cumpston's, Shipping arrivals and departures, Sydney, 1788-1825, >> http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/15987669 >> >> Robert Langdon; Where the whalers went : an index to the Pacific ports and >> islands visited by American whalers, and some other ships, in the 19th >> century, http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/18113681 >> >> Richards, Rhys (three books): >> Into the South Seas : the southern whale fishery comes of age on the >> Brazil Banks, 1765 to 1812 : a review of the whaling activities of American >> British, French, Spanish and Portuguese whalemen off Brazil and Patagonia >> before 1812, http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/31113824; >> Bay of Islands SAD [for NZ ship visits during 1803 to 1840's] >> http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/23446094 ; and his more recent work >> Tahiti and the Society Islands : shipping arrivals and departures, 1767 to >> 1852, http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/30829183 >> >> I'm working on the edited publication of a sailor narrative who was a Mate >> and later Master of a whaler. Though he does not name the Siren he names >> other whalers that were in company with your ship of interest. I'm located >> in Sydney, so you can contact me offlist if you have any specific questions. >> regards >> Chris Maxworthy >> AAMH >> >> <SNIP> Peter wrote: >> Can anyone tell me what the best sources of information/references are >> available to research a whaler - The Syren. It was owned by C & S Enderby >> from London. Apart from any details on the ship itself, I am most >> interested in a voyage that left Portsmouth on Nov 25, 1817 under Capt. >> Christie to carry out whaling in the South Pacific off the Chilean coast. >> My >> GGGG Grandfather, James Phillips was a mate on this voyage but >> unfortunately drowned on the voyage. (Poetic justice???? - maybe but they >> where different times ) >> >> If anyone on the Mariners list can give me pointers to find out more >> information about the ship and James Phillips I would be most grateful. >> >> Regards >> Peter Phillips >> >> > ------------------------------ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3822 - Release Date: 08/08/11 > >

On 11/08/2011 21:03, Gordon Shank wrote: > Appreciating the generalization of the question I nevertheless was > interested in anyone's perspective as to the capabilities of a Master > Mariner during the 19th century. > > > > As close as I can determine my gg grandfather was a Sea Captain/Master > Mariner for 50+ years from the 1830's through the 1880's. > > > > His cargo often consisted of coal, pig iron, timber, sugar or molasses. On > many voyages he transported immigrants from the UK to Australia, New > Zealand, Canada or the United States. A few of his other more frequent > destinations included India, the Philippines, Singapore, Malta, Antigua, > Trinidad, Barbados, Brazil and Cuba. > > > > Other than a good working knowledge of the sea and sailing ships I suspect > MM's needed to be excellent leaders of men and capable of managing the > commercial aspects of these voyages. > > > > I would love to hear others' opinions on the topic. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > I think you can add to the list physical courage. Thomas Hodgson, my great, great great grandfather, who I mentioned earlier this week was a master mariner. Whilst serving on the John Sugars as a 1st Mate he along with the Captain were accused by members of the crew of scuttling the ship for insurance (the ship sank in heavy weather in the Atlantic off Spain and the crew were rescused from the small boats). This was found not to be true and the crew were charged with conspiracy. The trial involves a detailed description of the the voyage from the Captain, Mate, Vessel Owner and other vingettes from the crew. This the captain talking about how they tried to plug the leak: "we had very heavy weather on Christmas-day, and the cabin sky-light was broken in by a sea---we had then close reefed topsails, and part of the day close reefed main-topsails, and I believe we had also a storm trysail only---more bulwarks were then washed away---from the 25th to New Year's Day the weather continued very heavy, and on New Year's Day, Hodgson, the chief mate, stated that either the carpenter or cook had told him that there was water coming into the ship forwards---I went down into the lower forecastle, and saw water coming in through a leak in the bows---it was an opening in the wood ends---I think the water was a little above, and a great body of water came in every time the vessel dipped---I made every effort to stop the leak, and the chief mate and the carpenter helped me---the leak was two or three feet, I think, and my impression was that the ends had started---the carpenter, myself, and the chief mate were slung over the bows, and we got a piece of wood and a piece of flannel nailed over the wood end---I was over the bows several times that day, but it was impossible to stop over any time together, the vessel was plunging too much---I did my best to stop the leak, and it kept a little water out, but not all" In addition to the courage they needed to be pretty hard men This is Thomas Hodgson talking about keeping the hands on the pumps "the pumps were kept constantly going on the day before the ship sank---we had a difficulty all along to keep the men to the pumps; it was as much as I could do to get them out of the forecastle, out of their berths---they had very hard work some days, they were fatigued and exhausted; but previous to the 5th they only wanted pressing to the pumps; but the day before the ship went down I had to lug them out of the forecastle and drive them to the pumps---I talked to them quietly in the first place, and found that did not take effect, so I was obliged to hammer them to the pumps---I mean that I rope's-ended them to the pumps" If you want to read more about the voyage the transcript of of the trial is here: /Old Bailey Proceedings Online/ (www.oldbaileyonline.org, version 6.0, 11 August 2011), May 1860, trial of WILLIAM COX (17) WILLIAM LEHMANN (29) JOHANN FERDINAND BESCHOTT (25) JOHANN POLL (22) WILLIAM HANSCHILDT (21) (t18600507-481). All the best Gavin

Hi Chris, Thanks very much for all your help and your annotations below. As I said I am very ignorant of matters sailing! Is a line coiler a 'deckhand' who is responsible for coiling up the anchor ropes, sail ropes etc.? Is a boat steerer is someone who steered the boat out in the middle of an ocean and only had to worry about steering a constant course? If James was recorded as a mate in 1816 does that mean he was progressing up mariner's greasy pole'? Another quick question - do any of these job descriptions give a clue to his age? When I was over in England last year I went to TNA at Kew and I think I found the will for James Phillips but not a James Phillips from Middlesex. My James came from Pembrokshire in Wales and the beneficiary was noted as Diana - which I know to be his wife's name. I also found a petition to Trinity House in the London Archives that had a lot of detail about James's family which tied everything together really nicely. The big challenge I have is to find details of James's parents and his siblings and I was hoping something in all these shipping records would give me a clue. Thanks again for your help and also to Alex, Jenny and Julie for their help. I find it amazing how much knowledge you have all accumulated and your willingness to share it. Kind Regards Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Maxworthy To: mariners-l Cc: Peter Phillips Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 12:57 AM Subject: Re: [MAR] Details of James Phillips and the whaler Syren, voyage 1816-18 Peter Regarding your maritime ancestor James Phillips, mate of the Syren whaler. There is a Will at the TNA for a James Phillips, master mariner. Any chance this is your chap? Will of James Phillips, Master Mariner of Lucas Street, Commercial Road, Saint George , Middlesex 03 March 1817 ref: PROB 11/1590 If this is your chap then it implies that Probate was granted while the Syren was still on it's whaling voyage. I suppose it is possible, if say James drowned at the Cape Verde islands or Madeira on the outbound voyage, and news was passed via a returning ship. A copy of the Will should help answer this - only A$6. http://tinyurl.com/3tr8vnk Again, care of the Jones books, some other items on the career of a James Phillips are: 10 Dec 1798 - crew on the General Boyd whaler, capt Howes Swain. Phillips was line coiler. 30 April 1799 - whaler Aurora, capt Stephen Macey; again as line coiler. 16 Oct 1809 - whaler Charles, no capt named; served as Boat Steerer Also, the voyage of the Syren ended with its return to London on 4 Dec 1818 (LL 8.12.1818) CM On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Chris Maxworthy <cgmaxwor@gmail.com> wrote: Peter, I can help. The best reference for starting out on whaling voyages in the South Seas is A.G.E. Jones two books, Ships Employed on the South Seas Trade. Here's the ref to locate a Library near you that holds the two sets http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/12068443 and http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/34743956. "Mac" Jones packed a lot of information into the two books that were published by Roebuck Press, so it can take some time to gain the full value of his research. Here is a part of what I found in the shipping movements volume [with my translation in brackets]: 1816 29.3 Deal 26 Syren Christie to SS. [29 March 1816 issue of Lloyds List (LL) reports that the Syren, commanded by Christie, departed Deal for the South Seas (SS) three days earlier, on 26th] 1816 3.9. Syren to SS, all well, 14.5 x 3N. [3 Sept 1816 issue of LL - steering for the South Seas - the Syren is abeam of the Gulf of Guinea and about 200 miles SW of Sierra Leone] 1818 17.2. Sir Charles Price at Downs from Timor, sld, 16 Oct; left there Syren, Ranger, Ocean. Sir A. Hammond sld for England 10 days before Sir C. Price. [17 Feb 1818 issue of LL - The whaler Sir Charles Price, having arrived back from her voyage to the South Seas reported that the Syren and other whalers had been at Timor with her back in Oct 1817] A great source of LL Marine News is the digitized copies of LL performed by Michael Dun. go to http://www.1812privateers.org/Bibliography/ Please note that AGE Jones also worked from the arrivals and departures intelligence in LL.. At this time this is not fully available in Michael's online resource - hence the possibility of Jones information not being locatable Michael's site. Other works of relevance are: John Cumpston's, Shipping arrivals and departures, Sydney, 1788-1825, http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/15987669 Robert Langdon; Where the whalers went : an index to the Pacific ports and islands visited by American whalers, and some other ships, in the 19th century, http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/18113681 Richards, Rhys (three books): Into the South Seas : the southern whale fishery comes of age on the Brazil Banks, 1765 to 1812 : a review of the whaling activities of American British, French, Spanish and Portuguese whalemen off Brazil and Patagonia before 1812, http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/31113824; Bay of Islands SAD [for NZ ship visits during 1803 to 1840's] http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/23446094 ; and his more recent work Tahiti and the Society Islands : shipping arrivals and departures, 1767 to 1852, http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/30829183 I'm working on the edited publication of a sailor narrative who was a Mate and later Master of a whaler. Though he does not name the Siren he names other whalers that were in company with your ship of interest. I'm located in Sydney, so you can contact me offlist if you have any specific questions. regards Chris Maxworthy AAMH <SNIP> Peter wrote: Can anyone tell me what the best sources of information/references are available to research a whaler - The Syren. It was owned by C & S Enderby from London. Apart from any details on the ship itself, I am most interested in a voyage that left Portsmouth on Nov 25, 1817 under Capt. Christie to carry out whaling in the South Pacific off the Chilean coast. My GGGG Grandfather, James Phillips was a mate on this voyage but unfortunately drowned on the voyage. (Poetic justice???? - maybe but they where different times ) If anyone on the Mariners list can give me pointers to find out more information about the ship and James Phillips I would be most grateful. Regards Peter Phillips ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3822 - Release Date: 08/08/11

I think it might be of interest to you to read about the year 1816- the year without a summer. It occurred due to the eruption of Mt Tambora in Indonesia but no one in Europe or the East cost of the USA knew what happened. It was a winter, crops failed, birds froze, people changed occupations, moved south and west. My ggg grandfather, a ship master in NYC worked those years in the West Indies for a group of merchants. I have always wondered if he was also looking for food to bring back. People ate Makeral. In NYC birds fell from the sky dead and you could drive a horse and slay on the frozen canals. As far south as Virginia, Thomas Jefferson had to borrow money for lost crops. All crops failed. It might have affected what your ancestor was doing. You can read about it on Wikipedia, and after that, I read a very good book of research on the entire subject. Really amazing. Thousands of people died in Europe and many here. People starved. It was really frozen in New England and it caused lots of change. Sue

ships log of the Syren http://rj5site.net/rj5_nicholson/rj5_nicholson_515/pdf/rj5_nicholson_515r.pdf

Appreciating the generalization of the question I nevertheless was interested in anyone's perspective as to the capabilities of a Master Mariner during the 19th century. As close as I can determine my gg grandfather was a Sea Captain/Master Mariner for 50+ years from the 1830's through the 1880's. His cargo often consisted of coal, pig iron, timber, sugar or molasses. On many voyages he transported immigrants from the UK to Australia, New Zealand, Canada or the United States. A few of his other more frequent destinations included India, the Philippines, Singapore, Malta, Antigua, Trinidad, Barbados, Brazil and Cuba. Other than a good working knowledge of the sea and sailing ships I suspect MM's needed to be excellent leaders of men and capable of managing the commercial aspects of these voyages. I would love to hear others' opinions on the topic.

Peter, With the prompt you give I have verified from the Gem Line book I previously mentioned that the Gem Line Ltd. was founded in 1952 and ownership of the Robertson ships tranferred to it. Hitherto their ships had traded under the title simply of W. Robertson, or variations thereof. Robertson owned ships from 1852 (sail) and steamers from 1865. They, of course, were registered at Glasgow. The ownership of the ships managed by Peter Miller Duncan was, certainly by 1897, listed as Dundee Gem Line, of Dundee. As they ceased trading circa 1910 I suppose a gap of 40 years is an acceptable period before the other Gem Line name actually came on the scene. The confusion for us "youngsters", however great our vintage, is that we knew only the Robertson ships as being of the Gem Line within our lifetime! Ron Mapplebeck (UK) **** On 10/08/2011 20:54, Peter Kirsopp wrote: > I think there were two Gem lines, at Dundee Peter M Duncan and at Glasgow William Robertson, both using gem names. In the clip site's Merchantile Navy lists there are two Sapphires for 1880 and 1900 and in 1900 there are two Diamonds, one to each owner. Duncan seems to have sailed ships as the Dundee Gem Line SS Co Ltd as early as 1888 while Robertson only adopted the name in 1950. > Peter > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I think there were two Gem lines, at Dundee Peter M Duncan and at Glasgow William Robertson, both using gem names. In the clip site's Merchantile Navy lists there are two Sapphires for 1880 and 1900 and in 1900 there are two Diamonds, one to each owner. Duncan seems to have sailed ships as the Dundee Gem Line SS Co Ltd as early as 1888 while Robertson only adopted the name in 1950. Peter

Hi Nick Following the link that Ron provided I checked the ownership of the first three steamships of the Gem line as a sample. http://www.dmcsoft.com/tamh/article.php?articleid=25 The Mercantile Navy List will nearly always list a Managing Owner rather then a Shipping Company name. The following are take from MNL 1880- 82 on the Clip web site http://www.crewlist.org.uk/data/vesselsalpha.php. SS. AMETHYST, 78691, Built Dundee 1879, Managing Owner Peter M Duncan Dundee. SS. BERYL, 82740, Built Dundee 1881, Managing Owner Peter M Duncan Dundee. SS. DIAMOND, 82744, Built Dundee 1881, Managing Owner Peter M Duncan Dundee. So Mr Duncan was a major share holder in the Gem Line, I cant explain why he is not mentioned in "William Robertson And The Gem Line" but if you check the other vessels from the TAMH list you might be able to build a time frame for his role as Managing Owner. Mick O Rourke Mariners List

Peter Regarding your maritime ancestor James Phillips, mate of the Syren whaler. There is a Will at the TNA for a James Phillips, master mariner. Any chance this is your chap? *Will of James Phillips, Master Mariner of Lucas Street, Commercial Road, Saint George , Middlesex 03 March 1817 ref: PROB 11/1590* If this is your chap then it implies that Probate was granted while the Syren was still on it's whaling voyage. I suppose it is possible, if say James drowned at the Cape Verde islands or Madeira on the outbound voyage, and news was passed via a returning ship. A copy of the Will should help answer this - only A$6. *http://tinyurl.com/3tr8vnk* Again, care of the Jones books, some other items on the career of a James Phillips are: 10 Dec 1798 - crew on the General Boyd whaler, capt Howes Swain. Phillips was line coiler. 30 April 1799 - whaler Aurora, capt Stephen Macey; again as line coiler. 16 Oct 1809 - whaler Charles, no capt named; served as Boat Steerer Also, the voyage of the Syren ended with its return to London on 4 Dec 1818 (LL 8.12.1818) CM On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Chris Maxworthy <cgmaxwor@gmail.com> wrote: > Peter, > I can help. The best reference for starting out on whaling voyages in the > South Seas is A.G.E. Jones two books, Ships Employed on the South Seas > Trade. Here's the ref to locate a Library near you that holds the two sets > http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/12068443 and > http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/34743956. > "Mac" Jones packed a lot of information into the two books that were > published by Roebuck Press, so it can take some time to gain the full value > of his research. Here is a part of what I found in the shipping movements > volume [with my translation in brackets]: > 1816 29.3 Deal 26 Syren Christie to SS. > [29 March 1816 issue of Lloyds List (LL) reports that the Syren, commanded > by Christie, departed Deal for the South Seas (SS) three days earlier, on > 26th] > > 1816 3.9. Syren to SS, all well, 14.5 x 3N. > [3 Sept 1816 issue of LL - steering for the South Seas - the Syren is abeam > of the Gulf of Guinea and about 200 miles SW of Sierra Leone] > > 1818 17.2. Sir Charles Price at Downs from Timor, sld, 16 Oct; left > there Syren, Ranger, Ocean. Sir A. Hammond sld for England 10 days before > Sir C. Price. > [17 Feb 1818 issue of LL - The whaler Sir Charles Price, having arrived > back from her voyage to the South Seas reported that the Syren and other > whalers had been at Timor with her back in Oct 1817] > > A great source of LL Marine News is the digitized copies of LL performed by > Michael Dun. > go to http://www.1812privateers.org/Bibliography/ > Please note that AGE Jones also worked from the arrivals and departures > intelligence in LL. At this time this is not fully available in Michael's > online resource - hence the possibility of Jones information not being > locatable Michael's site. > > Other works of relevance are: > John Cumpston's, Shipping arrivals and departures, Sydney, 1788-1825, > http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/15987669 > > Robert Langdon; Where the whalers went : an index to the Pacific ports and > islands visited by American whalers, and some other ships, in the 19th > century, http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/18113681 > > Richards, Rhys (three books): > Into the South Seas : the southern whale fishery comes of age on the Brazil > Banks, 1765 to 1812 : a review of the whaling activities of American > British, French, Spanish and Portuguese whalemen off Brazil and Patagonia > before 1812, http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/31113824; > Bay of Islands SAD [for NZ ship visits during 1803 to 1840's] > http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/23446094 ; and his more recent work > Tahiti and the Society Islands : shipping arrivals and departures, 1767 to > 1852, http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/30829183 > > I'm working on the edited publication of a sailor narrative who was a Mate > and later Master of a whaler. Though he does not name the Siren he names > other whalers that were in company with your ship of interest. I'm located > in Sydney, so you can contact me offlist if you have any specific questions. > regards > Chris Maxworthy > AAMH > > <SNIP> Peter wrote: > Can anyone tell me what the best sources of information/references are > available to research a whaler - The Syren. It was owned by C & S Enderby > from London. Apart from any details on the ship itself, I am most > interested in a voyage that left Portsmouth on Nov 25, 1817 under Capt. > Christie to carry out whaling in the South Pacific off the Chilean coast. > My > GGGG Grandfather, James Phillips was a mate on this voyage but > unfortunately drowned on the voyage. (Poetic justice???? - maybe but they > where different times ) > > If anyone on the Mariners list can give me pointers to find out more > information about the ship and James Phillips I would be most grateful. > > Regards > Peter Phillips > >

a good link to a list of shipping and sailing websites I just received from another researcher... http://www.pgsa.org/Resources/ships.php ignore the fact that it's a Polish research site, this is their compiled international list of well known and not well known shipping, sailing, immigration, etc. hope it helps someone. Cornelia

How can I find out what pier number a ship docked at in New York City? My passenger lists and newspaper articles of the time do not indicate the pier. I am particularly interested in the Lamport and Holt "Celtic" arriving 11 SEP 1914 and, the White Star Line "Olympic" arriving 2 JUL 1920. Any ideas? Dan Murphy, Lansdale, Pennsylvania, US

Hi Nivard, Thankyou. Dave and I correspond researching the same surname. I did suggest he try this helpful list. Since it would be tomorrow before he was up thought I would have a go since I am already on the list. Told him I had. Thanks Edie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nivard Ovington" <ovington1@sky.com> To: "Edie McArthur" <ediemc@bigpond.com>; "Mariners Rootsweb" <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 6:34 PM Subject: Re: [MAR] Invincible > Hi Edie > > I did not see a previous post re the Invincible but having just replied to > someone on the Middlesex list on the very same request > > On the night of April 3rd 1881 HMS Invincible was in the Grand Harbour, > Valetta, Malta > > She is listed as 2nd Class Armour Plated > Capt or CO Captain Robert O'B FITZROY > Station Mediterranean > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > > > >> Should have read "Invincible" >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Edie McArthur >> To: Mariners Rootsweb >> Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 5:54 PM >> Subject: Invincible >> >> >> Hi >> Wondering where the Navy ship "ionvincible" would have been on the night >> of the 1881 census. Looking for the information on William Thomas Place >> who was a private RMLI Royal Marines ight Infantry. Do any of you with >> those lovely books have any infomtion as to where she was that night >> please or that year . >> Thanks >> Edie > >

Should have read "Invincible" ----- Original Message ----- From: Edie McArthur To: Mariners Rootsweb Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 5:54 PM Subject: Invincible Hi Wondering where the Navy ship "ionvincible" would have been on the night of the 1881 census. Looking for the information on William Thomas Place who was a private RMLI Royal Marines ight Infantry. Do any of you with those lovely books have any infomtion as to where she was that night please or that year . Thanks Edie