Hello Peter Though my understanding is that people at the turn of the 18th/19th Centuries were generally not as tall as today, it is clear that the gun decks of Napoleonic era warships never allowed a lot of head room. The crew's comfort was not a great priority and one must bear in mind that the naval day probably did not allow much free time below decks. To quote Brian Lavery (who was, incidentally, a consultant on the Peter Weir film) "The essential role of a warship was to carry a gun armament into action.... In order to keep the centre of gravity as low as possible, it was necessary to keep the gundeck quite low. On the other hand, it had to be far enough above the waterline to keep out water when the ship was heeling, or when waves were high....... The distance between one gundeck and the deck above was one of the fixed factors of naval architecture. About five feet of clear headroom was needed to allow the men to operate the guns, and this did much to determine the height of a ship with a given number of decks. Decks which did not carry guns, such as the orlop decks on ships of the line, or the lower decks of frigates, needed less headroom, and were often closer to the one above." The quote comes from Lavery's book "Nelson's Navy - The ships, men and organisation 1793-1815" in Conway's "History of Sail" series, out of print (though new copies are available on Amazon and it is readily available secondhand via www.abebooks.com - there are other books with similar titles, but I don't know whether they are just US editions or differ in any way). It can be thoroughly recommended for anyone interested in the period - it's not too technical, but tells you most of what you could wish to know, with plenty of illustrations, and it is certainly the sort of thing Hector might like to add to his shopping list..... unless he prefers to go for one of Lavery's other books, "Jack Aubrey Commands: An Historical Companion to the Naval World of Patrick O'Brian". I haven't read this but I'm sure it is excellent. As Hector states, many of Jack Aubrey's adventures are based upon real incidents, although they didn't necessarily all happen to the same person. The first book (Master and Commander), the stock market episode (the Reverse of the Medal), and Aubrey's involvement in the South American wars of independence all draw heavily upon the life and career of Lord Cochrane. A brief run-though of his career can be found at http://tinyurl.com/fmsay and there are a number of biographies. Given his important role in the founding of the Chilean navy, it is possible that something may be available in Spanish. Hornblower fans, on the other hand, might be interested to read "The Real Hornblower - the life and times of Admiral Sir James Gordon" by Bryan Perrett. Cheers Piers 'Master and Commander' movie, viewed frequently, leaves one anxious for more. Perhaps the lingering powerful impression was the deckhead height, was evertone smaller then?? Peter

This is the only place where you can find everything you need!... http://misosofos.com/com.page.friend.php?fagID=17po9

"The Patrick O'Brian Muster Book - Persons, Animals, Ships and Cannon in the Aubrey-Maturin Sea Novels" by Anthony Gary Brown would be a good start (or its predecessor "Persons, Animals, Ships and Cannon in the Aubrey-Maturin Sea Novels of Patrick O'Brian" (1999). Peter Beeston.

Thanks for the information, I'll look for that books, (I hope that I could found them here, in Argentina). I'll start with those webs, hoping to fullfill my interest. Patrick O'Brian has found a new fan here! I'll be in touch, thank you!

The best resource for illustrations would be the National Maritime museum at Greenwich http://www.nmm.ac.uk/ and for vessel history http://www.ageofnelson.org/MichaelPhillips/ but the greatest pleasure is to see the original documents - ships muster, captain's letters etc. at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ for contemporary reports on commercial shipping of the period see http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/lloydslist/ and the reference there can be followed up at http://www.1812privateers.org/Bibliography bottom of page. Best wishes, Michael Latitude 56:47386 North Longitude -2:84576 West www.1812privateers.org

Greetings, Being a life long enthusiast of C.S. Forester Hornblower series, Richard Woodman a Nathan Drinkwater series, and Patrick O'Brian with Jack Aubrey. Each seem carefully researched and build one upon another, over the years. 'Master and Commander' movie, viewed frequently, leaves one anxious for more. Perhaps the lingering powerful impression was the deckhead height, was evertone smaller then?? Peter On 2011-11-06, at 3:41 AM, "Peter Beeston" <mausoleus@bigpond.com> wrote: > > "The Patrick O'Brian Muster Book - Persons, Animals, Ships and Cannon in the > Aubrey-Maturin Sea Novels" by Anthony Gary Brown would be a good start (or > its predecessor "Persons, Animals, Ships and Cannon in the Aubrey-Maturin > Sea Novels of Patrick O'Brian" (1999). > > > Peter Beeston. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello, I'm reading Patrick O'Brian's Books (Master & Commander, H. M. S. Surprise, etc.). I read that the ships, and battles were real, so I was wondering if there is a registry or something that contains images, or documentation about the ships that took part on the books series. Thanks in advance.

Thank you for your reply Peter. I have looked through the Master Mariner lists, but I can’t remember seeing the Alexander Clark, Master of the Bark Margaret, (Aberdeen)that you mention, so I will have another look. I know that there was an Alexander Clark , master, who was born in Aberdeen but he was born quite sometime after my Alexander. Up until now every one that looks like a possibility is either not the right age, or not born in Abroath. I was going to look tonight, but I have had a busy day,so it will have to be tomorrow. Isobel jones

I"m new to this,but I think you may have sent this to the wrong email as my query was about flatboats of cheshire in the 1800's.Noeline --- On Wed, 2/11/11, Peter Kirsopp <peter.kirsopp@gmail.com> wrote: From: Peter Kirsopp <peter.kirsopp@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [MAR] {MAR} Alexander Clark, mariner. To: mariners@rootsweb.com Date: Wednesday, 2, November, 2011, 9:52 AM You might examine Lloyd's Register on-line at books.google.com for masters of that name. Unfortunately a common name with several possibles, since not all have the initial. However a quick check on the 1860 edition shows a possible one as master of the bark Margaret of Aberdeen, 558tons owned Marsh & co, on a voyage Liverpool to Quebec. Good hunting, Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Isobel Jones" <jonesib@manx.net> To: <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 3:36 PM Subject: [MAR] {MAR} Alexander Clark, mariner. > Hello List, > > Can any one suggest where I might find some information on Alexander CLARK > born Arbroath Scotland 1807. > In the 1841/51/61 Census records his wife Elizabeth was described as a > shipmaster’s wife, but by 1871 she was a widow. > I have not been able to find his name in any Mariner’s records. He would > probably have been at sea by about 1821, and as he was born in Arbroath I > imagine that he probably joined a ship from there. > > Unfortunately I do not know the names of any of the ships on which he was > a crew member. He is supposed to have died from yellow fever in the West > Indies. I have in the past searched some burials of seamen in Jamaica, but > he may well have been buried at sea.  He is not listed  in overseas > deaths-or deaths at Sea ( Findmypast) > > Isobel Jones > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Interesting little story I found in 16 October 1913 edition of The Toronto Daily Star 16 October 1913 (p. 5, col. 8): The Boy Mariner. Canadian Press Despatch. Boston, Oct. 16.—At the age of thirteen years little Harold Delaney of Allston has qualified as one of the youngest mariners on the New England coast. During a terrific gale on Tuesday, he stood lashed to the wheel of the two-masted schooner Robert Pettis, and steered her safely through the storm. “He’s the nerviest little fellow in the world,” declared Captain Nutter when the vessel arrived here from Tusket, N.S. -- Thank you, Andy Baker http://fireontheocean.com/

Hi Noeline You are subscribed to a list with many subscribers, you will receive a copy of all posts to the list not only those relevant to you Its rather like subscribing to a magazine, read the parts you are interested in but discard those that do not interest you Look for the subject line that you posted on yours , any replies to that should carry the same subject line There are two replies in the list archives for your enquiry http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/Mariners/2011-11 Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > I"m new to this,but I think you may have sent this to the wrong email as my query was about > flatboats of cheshire in the 1800's.Noeline >

You might examine Lloyd's Register on-line at books.google.com for masters of that name. Unfortunately a common name with several possibles, since not all have the initial. However a quick check on the 1860 edition shows a possible one as master of the bark Margaret of Aberdeen, 558tons owned Marsh & co, on a voyage Liverpool to Quebec. Good hunting, Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Isobel Jones" <jonesib@manx.net> To: <mariners@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 3:36 PM Subject: [MAR] {MAR} Alexander Clark, mariner. > Hello List, > > Can any one suggest where I might find some information on Alexander CLARK > born Arbroath Scotland 1807. > In the 1841/51/61 Census records his wife Elizabeth was described as a > shipmaster’s wife, but by 1871 she was a widow. > I have not been able to find his name in any Mariner’s records. He would > probably have been at sea by about 1821, and as he was born in Arbroath I > imagine that he probably joined a ship from there. > > Unfortunately I do not know the names of any of the ships on which he was > a crew member. He is supposed to have died from yellow fever in the West > Indies. I have in the past searched some burials of seamen in Jamaica, but > he may well have been buried at sea. He is not listed in overseas > deaths-or deaths at Sea ( Findmypast) > > Isobel Jones > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This is a new experience for me,and I have a lot to learn.I am trying to find occupation information about Thomas Allcock (Alcock) born 1814 in Leftwich.He is listed on the Census of 1851 as out on his flatboat;1861 as master of a flatboat;and 1871 as mariner retired.One of his five sons,John I think was on the 1871 census as mariner. I'm having trouble finding info about flatboats in general-were they called other names and what was their purpose? Looking forward to hearing from someone through this " new to me" method.Thanks Noeline

Thanks David. I think I can check the Lloyds data here in the archives in Ottawa. Regards, Rhonda On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 4:05 AM, David Asprey <dasprey@blueyonder.co.uk>wrote: > on 30 Oct 2011 Rhonda Staskow wrote > > I have the brig Peter, captain Moos or possibly Lorentzen, arriving in > Cardiff on 10 July 1867 from the Netherlands. I wondered if anyone has > access to records that shows when it departed Cardiff and for what port. > > Some time ago, I had a similar request about the same ship departing > Cardiff > on 8 June 1873 for Singapore. I am looking for the date the ship arrived in > Cardiff and from what port. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > Almost certainly these will be recorded in the Ships' Movements data in the > newspaper Lloyd's List. These are indexed and available on microfilm at > Guildhall Library, London and one or two other places. > > Caradiff newspapers may be another (less comprehensive) source. > > > > David > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Noeline, I have not heard the term "flatboat" before, but assuming your ancestor remained in the vicinity of Leftwich then I imagine this is another term for the flats used on the rivers Weaver and Mersey - there is a Wikipedia description here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersey_Flat These flats are single-masted sailing vessels. I did wonder if the term flatboat might instead refer to the horse-drawn canal boat, but a quick look around the internet seems to confirm that these were always known as "narrow boats". Flats were a well-known type of craft in the NW of England and were used in the estuaries of the Mersey and Ribble and in Morecambe Bay. They would travel on coastal passages, sometimes as far as Scotland, and with a crew of two, often a man and a boy, and sometimes were sailed single-handed. They did have a flat bottom, with a keel parallel to the waterline, this to allow them to ground in sandy estuaries. Michael Stammers, a former director of the Merseyside Maritime Museum, has written a book, "Mersey Flats and Flatmen" - there is a review on Amazon UK http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mersey-Flats-Flatmen-Michael-Stammers/dp/0861380991 I have another book, "Schooner Port" by H.F.Starkey, which is largely about the port of Runcorn, on the other side of the Mersey estauary from the Weaver, but has a good deal of information on Mersey and Weaver flats. It is also a properly referenced book, so has many sources for further information. This book states that Liverpool's pre-eminence as a port was founded on the export of salt, all of which came to Liverpool from the Cheshire mines by the river Weaver. This book states that in 1808 there were more than 250 single-masted flats operating out of Northwich, typically carrying 60 to 80 tons of coal or salt. In 1881 1.25 million tons of salt was carried on the river Weaver, though of course by then much would have been in steam-powered vessels. For further information on the area you could look at the website of the Salt Museum at Northwich http://www.weaverhallmuseum.org.uk/ or the National Waterways Museum at Ellesmere Port http://www.nwm.org.uk/ Best Wishes, Tim Latham www.mightyseas.co.uk On 01/11/2011 7:14 AM, Leonard Heswall wrote: This is a new experience for me,and I have a lot to learn.I am trying to find occupation information about Thomas Allcock (Alcock) born 1814 in Leftwich.He is listed on the Census of 1851 as out on his flatboat;1861 as master of a flatboat;and 1871 as mariner retired.One of his five sons,John I think was on the 1871 census as mariner. I'm having trouble finding info about flatboats in general-were they called other names and what was their purpose? Looking forward to hearing from someone through this " new to me" method.Thanks Noeline ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Noeline, It might help us a bit to know exactly where Thomas Allcock was living in 1851 and 1861 when he was master of his flatboat.  Leftwich, Cheshire? Regards, PK ________________________________ From: Leonard Heswall <lenols.heswall@xtra.co.nz> To: MARINERS@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2011, 7:14 Subject: [MAR] Flat boats 1800's This is a new experience for me,and I have a lot to learn.I am trying to find occupation information about Thomas Allcock (Alcock) born 1814 in Leftwich.He is listed on the Census of 1851 as out on his flatboat;1861 as master of a flatboat;and 1871 as mariner retired.One of his five sons,John I think was on the 1871 census as mariner. I'm having trouble finding info about flatboats in general-were they called other names and what was their purpose? Looking forward to hearing from someone through this " new to me" method.Thanks Noeline ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MARINERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

on 30 Oct 2011 Rhonda Staskow wrote I have the brig Peter, captain Moos or possibly Lorentzen, arriving in Cardiff on 10 July 1867 from the Netherlands. I wondered if anyone has access to records that shows when it departed Cardiff and for what port. Some time ago, I had a similar request about the same ship departing Cardiff on 8 June 1873 for Singapore. I am looking for the date the ship arrived in Cardiff and from what port. >>>>>>>>>> Almost certainly these will be recorded in the Ships' Movements data in the newspaper Lloyd's List. These are indexed and available on microfilm at Guildhall Library, London and one or two other places. Caradiff newspapers may be another (less comprehensive) source. David

From the San Francisco Call newspaper, Tuesday, 28th March 1893, page 7: " AN ICE BOUND SHIP - A GHASTLY CREW OF FROZEN SAILORS - A WEIRD TALE OF THE SEA - While in Cape Horn Tempest the Drumcraig Meets a Bark with Death the Helmsman - A story of the sea as weird as any conceived by the authors of the 'Ancient Mariner' or the 'Frozen Pirate'or other wonderful creations of the imagination reached here yesterday, through a sea captain from the storm-lashed waters below Cape Horn. It was a wild, ghastly, awful picture of a ship, sheeted in ice and snow, carried high on a rugged and jagged iceberg that swept a frightened crew while their ship was on the brink of disaster, tossed by the fury of a storm. The frozen ship was manned by frozen sailors, who seemed lashed to the silent shrouds as the specter bark wandered on through the storms of the shuned and desolate Antarctic regions. The story was told by Captain Atkinson, recently of the ship Thirlmere, who arrived from England to command the ship Goodrich in place of Captain Williams, who committed suicide. Captain Atkinson was told the story by Captain Spurring, of the Drumcraig, who saw the frozen ship while rounding Cape Horn in his trip from San Francisco to Liverpool. Captain Atkinson had met Captain Spurring just as he had arrived in Liverpool. According to the story of Captain Spurring, as related by Atkinson, the Drumcraig had a fair and uneventful passage to the region of Cape Horn, where fearful weather was encountered. When about off the tip of the Horn, beyond Diego Ramirez, the ship was tossing in a veritable hurricane. The air was terribly cold and was half the time filled with driving hail and snow, and the ship pitched terribly in the tempestuous sea. Seas rolled over the decks, and the vessel and her rigging were encased in ice. Here an accident happened that saved the ship. As the vessel drove and pitched through the seething sea the lookout could see but a little way ahead through the blinding storm. Suddenly the lower fore-topsail yard was torn away by the storm and the captain quickly brought the vessel up to the wind. But a few minutes later, as the air cleared a little, a tremendous iceberg, nearly 200 feet high, loomed dimly into view. If the vessel had continued on she would undoubtedly have crashed into the mountain of ice and found a grave where she struck. The iceberg passed so close that a sailor threw a biscuit upon it. Suddenly, as the iceberg slowly veered around, there came into view a sight that chilled the marrow in the bones of the Drumcraig's crew. On a portion of the jagged berg rested a wooden bark as cold and lifeless and more ghastly than the ice that bore her. Her sails were set and were sheets of ice. Her shrouds were white and stout icicles hung from the rigging. Irregular banks of ice and snow reached as high as the deck, which were piled and sheeted in the shrouding ice. There were rounded piles that the frightened sailors were sure were frozen men, and lashed to the rigging and shrouded in the all-enfolding ice were two sailors who were still at their posts as their vessel swept on commanded by Death, but guided by neither wheel nor compass. The unknown bark bad been caught in the ice somewhere in the region of No Man's Land— how long ago, no one can guess — and then began her weird and spectral voyage, the sport of perpetual storms and icy currents. The bark may some day float in water again and might even, by a rare chance, be picked up and its story of death revealed. But the Drumcraig's crew had no inclination to investigate the blood-curdling mystery even if they had not been struggling for life with the Storm King, and they passed on through the storm as quickly as possible, leaving the spectral ship and the story of disaster and death to the winds and the trackless waters that claimed it. "

I have the brig Peter, captain Moos or possibly Lorentzen, arriving in Cardiff on 10 July 1867 from the Netherlands. I wondered if anyone has access to records that shows when it departed Cardiff and for what port. Some time ago, I had a similar request about the same ship departing Cardiff on 8 June 1873 for Singapore. I am looking for the date the ship arrived in Cardiff and from what port. Thanks and regards, Rhonda

To Nivard and Michael, Those were very quick replies. Thank you . Yes I frequently use ‘ Scotlandspeople’ and I have searched the Minor Records –all the deaths and testaments for Alexander Clark, but unfortunately he doesn’t seem to be there (not my one anyway) Thank you for the list you sent Michael. I have searched the Ancestry records for deaths all over the world just in case his name turns up but no sign of him. Isobel Jones