Does anyone knowks if the ship’s log of the German steamship D. Columbus was saved and is held anywhere ? Alex

hi Susan Piers has provided a very good reply to your question on Vera Cruz. To add a minor point, if you can read Spanish (or use Google translator translate.google.com) then you could also look at the online Mexican archives, which they have done a good job of digitizing their records. Go to www.agn.gob.mx .. look on the right for "Guia General de los Fondos" click this.. on the next page that displays, top left corner click on the yellow text "Fondos, Expedientes y Documentos". .. when you see "Archivo General de la Nación" click the plus (+) sign and then click on the word "Instituciones Coloniales" This sets you up to search in the AGN's colonial records..then click on "Buscar" (to search) I tried the words Vera Cruz 1820 - and received more than 170 results.. you need to hit Agregar (to add) and Acceptar (go and search for me). Marina Caja is equal to 'maritime records" Note - Mexico became independent in 1821, so also be prepared to look in the AGN non-colonial records if you are into the later 1820s. One other thought - the Shipping Registers for each year in the last column would often give the 'common' route sailed by each ship. Noting that the data was often old, it may help you to identify a particular ship if you later have a name to work from. You'd be amazed how many ships had a common name in a particular year. good luck Chris *Chris Maxworthy* *Australian Association for Maritime History* (AAMH) *http://aamh.academia.edu/ChrisMaxworthy <http://aamh.academia.edu/ChrisMaxworthy>* Piers wrote: Hello Susan In the 1820s it would be fairly safe to say that there really weren't passenger ships as such. If people needed to go overseas they looked for what was basically a merchant ship going in the right direction. Accommodation would be in an officer's cabin aft, at a price, or if there were numbers of people to be carried and the vessel was big enough, in the 'tween decks - a deck space under the main deck and above the cargo hold. However even in the case of vessels carrying hundreds of people to a destination like, say, Australia, the passenger accommodation was temporary, the vessel would carry as full a cargo as possible, and on arrival, would look to load another cargo to take elsewhere. It would not necessarily run to a regular route or timetable, but would advertise its intentions in a local paper. Examples of such advertisements (from the 1840s) can be found in the Australian papers such as page 3 of *http://tinyurl.com/q8kx6mz <http://tinyurl.com/q8kx6mz>* As with all generalisations exceptions and qualifications immediately come to mind. For example there were packets such as the ships of the Black Ball line which ran regular services across the Atlantic, but they would have made the majority of their money from the things they carried, rather than the people so my point basically holds good. So to answer your first question, passenger ships at that time were basically merchant ships. To answer your second, they wouldn't have been listed in separate categories in whatever it was you found. So if someone wanted to travel from London to Vera Cruz, they could look for (a) a vessel departing London intending to call at Santa Cruz (and possibly other places) or (b) a vessel departing London for a place where other vessels departed for Vera Cruz - such as a port in Spain perhaps, or on the East Coast of North America, or Havana or somewhere like that. I suggest that you need the shipping newspaper, Lloyd's List. Fortunately, some of the 1820s are available online, though I don't think name searching is possible in all years, and in those years for which it is possible, OCR transcriptions may be unreliable. 1820 for example provided a number of hits for "Vera" with "Cruz" frequently being garbled, so you may have to be creative with your search terms. You can find the editions for 1820-1826 at http://www.maritimearchives.co.uk/lloyds-list.html . Remember that vessels may show up in Vera Cruz itself, and in their ports of departure and subsequent arrival. But that will only give you the names of vessels which called there, and their routes, not the names of anyone on board except maybe the master. Cheers Piers On 10 November 2013 14:56, Susan C <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello listers, > > Were Merchant ships passenger ships as well? I am searching for more > information regarding ships from London to Vera Cruz in the 1820's, when > England had commercial interests in Mexico. I can find very few on > Ancestry.com departing from London to New York, then on to Vera Cruz. > Tracing the Merchant ships departing Vera Cruz, arriving to New York and > then to London is sparse. And perhaps they didn't take that route. Is it > possible Passenger ships and Merchant ships are listed in separate > categories? > > > Can someone point me in the right direction,or know of a link for ships > other than the Royal Navy ships? > > > Thanks, Susan

My Great Great Uncle was captain of a ship that sank (Captain Thomas Dunning) There was a Board of Trade inquiry and he was suspended for three months. The report of the Inquiry (1904) still exists Ros PS He may have been drunk at the time but no-one actually says so! -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Graham Read Sent: 11 November 2013 16:19 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MAR] What would be the fate of the captain of a ship that sank? There almost certainly would have been an enquiry. Who ran the enquiry would depend on where the incident occurred. If say in the River Plate, it might be important to decide the exact site and the exact international frontier, as well as where international waters started. Then, was the Captain the holder of a Master's ticket from the UK [Board of Trade]. If a captain was censured by a foreign govt enquiry, the BoT would have held its own hearing to decide whether to uphold the verdict and, if thought necessary. Typical would be suspension of his 'ticket' for a fixed period. The outcome, as with anything legal, would depend on the events. If he ran a liner aground in good weather, with significant loss of life,and was drunk at the time, he would be lucky to get a job as an OS. If the censure was less, he might sail as a second mate on his 1st mate's ticket, unless the Board ruled otherwise. If he were British, and there was a BoT enquiry and report, this should be available. Regards Graham On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Jennifer Murray <[email protected]>wrote: > Hi, > > I recently read the following item in an on-line newspaper archive. > Date of publication was June 1909. What would be the likely fate of > the captain of this ship? Would he lose his captain's ticket? Would > there have been an inquiry? Would he have been able to find work again as a sea captain? > > Jennifer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Western Star (Corner Brook, N.L.), 1909-06-16: " Geisha " > a Total Loss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

There almost certainly would have been an enquiry. Who ran the enquiry would depend on where the incident occurred. If say in the River Plate, it might be important to decide the exact site and the exact international frontier, as well as where international waters started. Then, was the Captain the holder of a Master's ticket from the UK [Board of Trade]. If a captain was censured by a foreign govt enquiry, the BoT would have held its own hearing to decide whether to uphold the verdict and, if thought necessary. Typical would be suspension of his 'ticket' for a fixed period. The outcome, as with anything legal, would depend on the events. If he ran a liner aground in good weather, with significant loss of life,and was drunk at the time, he would be lucky to get a job as an OS. If the censure was less, he might sail as a second mate on his 1st mate's ticket, unless the Board ruled otherwise. If he were British, and there was a BoT enquiry and report, this should be available. Regards Graham On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Jennifer Murray <[email protected]>wrote: > Hi, > > I recently read the following item in an on-line newspaper archive. Date > of publication was June 1909. What would be the likely fate of the captain > of this ship? Would he lose his captain's ticket? Would there have been an > inquiry? Would he have been able to find work again as a sea captain? > > Jennifer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Western Star (Corner Brook, N.L.), 1909-06-16: " Geisha " > a Total Loss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Jennifer I may be wrong but it sounds like you may have added an attachment? If so it will not show as rootsweb lists do not accept attachments or HTML You would need to attach it to a board post or put it online somewhere and post a link to it Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 11/11/2013 15:18, Jennifer Murray wrote: > Hi, > > I recently read the following item in an on-line newspaper archive. Date of publication was June 1909. What would be the likely fate of the captain of this ship? Would he lose his captain's ticket? Would there have been an inquiry? Would he have been able to find work again as a sea captain? > > Jennifer. > > Western Star (Corner Brook, N.L.), 1909-06-16: " Geisha " a Total Loss >

The situation is similar to that in British police forces. Any ambitious constable takes his sergeant's exams, but promotion to sergeant depends on the usual position bedcoming vacant and your face fitting. There is no way you get a promotion just because you have passed your exam. My brother (MM) was on North Sea ferries where the ship keeps sailing but the crew keeps changing. There the situation seemed much like that described in the Hornblower novels. The officers gathered and compared seniority to decide who was 3rd mate and who was 4th mate. On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Ted Finch <[email protected] > wrote: > Hi Bill, > > Anchor Line archives are held at Glasgow University, see > http://archiveshub.ac.uk/data/gb248-ugd255/01 > > The lowest officer's exam was for 2nd mate and a holder of this > certificate would normally sail as 3rd or 4th mate. Similarly someone > holding a first mate's certificate would sail as 2nd mate, etc. > > A ship's steward would generally look after passengers and / or > officers, keep passengers cabins clean, serve meals, etc. > > Can you put the photo on line or e-mail as an attachment? > > regards > Ted > > > On 11/11/2013 10:40, Bill Kean wrote: > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill Kean [mailto:[email protected]] > > Sent: Sunday, 10 November 2013 12:14 PM > > > > Subject: Mixture > > > > > > > > I have a relative shown on the Glasgow 1881 (April ) Census as 4th Mate > - SS > > Marathon ( which was likely to be O.N 28820 according to your website - > > previous query ). I have since discovered he got his 2nd Mate > Certificate in > > June 1879. > > > > Would he have taken a ship at a lower rating? > > > > > > > > Another relative is shown in October 1894 as an Assistant Ships Steward > on > > the Anchor Line. I learned previously that Cunard Archives are held in > > Liverpool. > > > > Who would hold the archives for the Anchor Line and what were the duties > of > > a ship's steward? > > > > > > > > Lastly I have a photo of someone in uniform ( presumably Shipping Line) > > > > Who can I contact to find out about the insignia on his cap and sleeves > , ie > > the line and rating? > > > > > > > > Many thanks......Bill > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi, I recently read the following item in an on-line newspaper archive. Date of publication was June 1909. What would be the likely fate of the captain of this ship? Would he lose his captain's ticket? Would there have been an inquiry? Would he have been able to find work again as a sea captain? Jennifer. Western Star (Corner Brook, N.L.), 1909-06-16: " Geisha " a Total Loss

Hi Bill, Anchor Line archives are held at Glasgow University, see http://archiveshub.ac.uk/data/gb248-ugd255/01 The lowest officer's exam was for 2nd mate and a holder of this certificate would normally sail as 3rd or 4th mate. Similarly someone holding a first mate's certificate would sail as 2nd mate, etc. A ship's steward would generally look after passengers and / or officers, keep passengers cabins clean, serve meals, etc. Can you put the photo on line or e-mail as an attachment? regards Ted On 11/11/2013 10:40, Bill Kean wrote: > > > > > From: Bill Kean [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Sunday, 10 November 2013 12:14 PM > > Subject: Mixture > > > > I have a relative shown on the Glasgow 1881 (April ) Census as 4th Mate - SS > Marathon ( which was likely to be O.N 28820 according to your website - > previous query ). I have since discovered he got his 2nd Mate Certificate in > June 1879. > > Would he have taken a ship at a lower rating? > > > > Another relative is shown in October 1894 as an Assistant Ships Steward on > the Anchor Line. I learned previously that Cunard Archives are held in > Liverpool. > > Who would hold the archives for the Anchor Line and what were the duties of > a ship's steward? > > > > Lastly I have a photo of someone in uniform ( presumably Shipping Line) > > Who can I contact to find out about the insignia on his cap and sleeves , ie > the line and rating? > > > > Many thanks......Bill > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Susan, Further to other contributions, in the light of the great importance of West Indies trade to the UK, there was a regular service, or at least as regular as the weather would permit, carried out by British Packets, serving the many British possessions in the West Indies, Vera Cruz, Havana and the Eastern coast of South America, some of the West Indies packets starting at Vera Cruz, calling at various islands, often including Havannah, en route to England, rarely, as far as I know calling at New York, there already being a direct connection from the UK. In addition to carrying mail these vessels occasionally carried treasure or bullion, although their insurance was probably higher during the 1820s as they were considered a soft a touch to the many pirates and no-goods frequenting West Indies waters in those days, and already as mentioned on the list recently, with the RN picking up much of the trade for treasure and bullion etc. So since you say he had commercial interests in Mexico I would be inclined to include British Packets in your search, which invariably operated out of Falmouth, Cornwall, England, from whence coastal traffic could take your passenger up the Channel to London, or, if he could afford it, and time was of the essence, he could take the rather more uncomfortable route overland, if easterly winds were blowing and he was unlikely to arrive in London for some weeks by sea, and as is and was sometimes the case when high pressure sets in across the country, with an easterly blow preventing all but the most agile vessels sailing up the English Channel, and on occasion requiring the assistance of RN vessels at Plymouth to take out water and provisions for vessels waiting in the Western Approaches for a change in the wind....a similar problem existed at the Straights of Gibraltar, with many hundreds of vessels sometimes being held up, and, it is said, making an unforgettable sight for the residents of Gibraltar when the wind changed direction and they all set a press of sail to pass through the Straights into the Med., in order to be the first to market with their cargo, but I'm wandering off the topic....!! Would have made a wonderful picture though, I should think ? Paul On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 06:56:43 -0800 (PST), Susan C <[email protected]> wrote: >Hello listers, > >Were Merchant ships passenger ships as well?  I am searching for more information regarding ships from London to Vera Cruz in the 1820's, when England had commercial interests in Mexico.   I can find very few on Ancestry.com departing from London to New York, then on to Vera Cruz.   Tracing the Merchant ships departing Vera Cruz, arriving to New York and then to London is sparse.  And perhaps they didn't take that route.  Is it possible Passenger ships and Merchant ships are listed in separate categories?   > > >Can someone point me in the right direction,or know of a link for ships other than the Royal Navy ships?   > > >Thanks, Susan > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html

Thank you Yes I would also vouch for that having been searching in that area for some years Hence my excitement at finding something tangible for once :-) Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 10/11/2013 21:20, strau strau wrote: > Sorry that I can't be of help -- especially b/c I am trying to research a > Thomas Peironnet/Pieronnet who was also an English ship captain with > holdings in Demerara, but left there around 1818. I've looked a little at > records in Demerara and Guiana, and found that there was little to go on. > > > On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 4:04 PM, Nivard Ovington <[email protected]>wrote: > >> Hi all >> >> By a stroke of very good fortune I have come into the news that my >> g.g.grandfather George ANDERSON who was a sugar planter in Demerara was >> also the owner, or co owner at least of a ship called the Isabella >> during the period 1831/32 to 1840? possibly longer I know not >> >> Plying between England and Demerara at least

Small addition I think I have found the Isabella in 1836 with master M'CASKELL and then CAMPBELL also to and from Demerara Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 10/11/2013 21:04, Nivard Ovington wrote: > Hi all > > By a stroke of very good fortune I have come into the news that my > g.g.grandfather George ANDERSON who was a sugar planter in Demerara was > also the owner, or co owner at least of a ship called the Isabella > during the period 1831/32 to 1840? possibly longer I know not > > Plying between England and Demerara at least > > I have found some voyages in the papers in 1834 & 1835 master was TAIT > (I am told Thomas TAIT) > > Apparently Thomas TAIT died at sea off Guiana in 1835 > > And in 1837 & 1838 with a master DUNNING > > A long shot but wondered if anyone could add to that very sparse knowledge > > I am unsure if George ANDERSON owned the ship in his own name or more > likely as George ANDERSON and Company (London and Glasgow) > > Partners were George ANDERSON, Alexander, Thomas & Robert SMITH and > possibly John HAYLOCK >

Hi all By a stroke of very good fortune I have come into the news that my g.g.grandfather George ANDERSON who was a sugar planter in Demerara was also the owner, or co owner at least of a ship called the Isabella during the period 1831/32 to 1840? possibly longer I know not Plying between England and Demerara at least I have found some voyages in the papers in 1834 & 1835 master was TAIT (I am told Thomas TAIT) Apparently Thomas TAIT died at sea off Guiana in 1835 And in 1837 & 1838 with a master DUNNING A long shot but wondered if anyone could add to that very sparse knowledge I am unsure if George ANDERSON owned the ship in his own name or more likely as George ANDERSON and Company (London and Glasgow) Partners were George ANDERSON, Alexander, Thomas & Robert SMITH and possibly John HAYLOCK -- Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)

Hello Susan In the 1820s it would be fairly safe to say that there really weren't passenger ships as such. If people needed to go overseas they looked for what was basically a merchant ship going in the right direction. Accommodation would be in an officer's cabin aft, at a price, or if there were numbers of people to be carried and the vessel was big enough, in the 'tween decks - a deck space under the main deck and above the cargo hold. However even in the case of vessels carrying hundreds of people to a destination like, say, Australia, the passenger accommodation was temporary, the vessel would carry as full a cargo as possible, and on arrival, would look to load another cargo to take elsewhere. It would not necessarily run to a regular route or timetable, but would advertise its intentions in a local paper. Examples of such advertisements (from the 1840s) can be found in the Australian papers such as page 3 of *http://tinyurl.com/q8kx6mz <http://tinyurl.com/q8kx6mz>* As with all generalisations exceptions and qualifications immediately come to mind. For example there were packets such as the ships of the Black Ball line which ran regular services across the Atlantic, but they would have made the majority of their money from the things they carried, rather than the people so my point basically holds good. So to answer your first question, passenger ships at that time were basically merchant ships. To answer your second, they wouldn't have been listed in separate categories in whatever it was you found. So if someone wanted to travel from London to Vera Cruz, they could look for (a) a vessel departing London intending to call at Santa Cruz (and possibly other places) or (b) a vessel departing London for a place where other vessels departed for Vera Cruz - such as a port in Spain perhaps, or on the East Coast of North America, or Havana or somewhere like that. I suggest that you need the shipping newspaper, Lloyd's List. Fortunately, some of the 1820s are available online, though I don't think name searching is possible in all years, and in those years for which it is possible, OCR transcriptions may be unreliable. 1820 for example provided a number of hits for "Vera" with "Cruz" frequently being garbled, so you may have to be creative with your search terms. You can find the editions for 1820-1826 at http://www.maritimearchives.co.uk/lloyds-list.html . Remember that vessels may show up in Vera Cruz itself, and in their ports of departure and subsequent arrival. But that will only give you the names of vessels which called there, and their routes, not the names of anyone on board except maybe the master. Cheers Piers On 10 November 2013 14:56, Susan C <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello listers, > > Were Merchant ships passenger ships as well? I am searching for more > information regarding ships from London to Vera Cruz in the 1820's, when > England had commercial interests in Mexico. I can find very few on > Ancestry.com departing from London to New York, then on to Vera Cruz. > Tracing the Merchant ships departing Vera Cruz, arriving to New York and > then to London is sparse. And perhaps they didn't take that route. Is it > possible Passenger ships and Merchant ships are listed in separate > categories? > > > Can someone point me in the right direction,or know of a link for ships > other than the Royal Navy ships? > > > Thanks, Susan > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thanks to Chris and Paul for their helpful replies. Just to complicate matters, I have both ADM and BT records for Daniel Quinn covering his service on HMS Acorn. I'm not sure what this means! What I don't understand is that he was already on board Acorn on the River Uruguay (and recorded on the ADM paperwork) at the time he was added to the BT paperwork. There doesn't seem to be a break of service in any of his ADM paperwork which would indicate a need for him to join the merchant service for a few years. Indeed the Acorn left Portsmouth in February 1845 and didn't return until May 1847. He first joined Acorn on 18th December 1844 - the BT record was issued on 26th August 1846. He was discharged from Acorn on 26th March 1848 according to the ADM paperwork. I can't make out the 'paid off' date on the BT paperwork. The ADM ref is ADM 38/7444 Acorn. C.,D.,O. 1844 Dec.14-1848 Aug.8. (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details?Uri=C767550). The BT number is BT 113/150 Register of Merchant Seamen. I haven't got a scanned copy of the ADM record yet (it's a photocopy and not very legible) but the BT one can be downloaded from my Skydrive (public, so no password needed). *http://tinyurl.com/ll93nk3* Puzzled of north of the border! Jo

Sorry that I can't be of help -- especially b/c I am trying to research a Thomas Peironnet/Pieronnet who was also an English ship captain with holdings in Demerara, but left there around 1818. I've looked a little at records in Demerara and Guiana, and found that there was little to go on. On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 4:04 PM, Nivard Ovington <[email protected]>wrote: > Hi all > > By a stroke of very good fortune I have come into the news that my > g.g.grandfather George ANDERSON who was a sugar planter in Demerara was > also the owner, or co owner at least of a ship called the Isabella > during the period 1831/32 to 1840? possibly longer I know not > > Plying between England and Demerara at least > > I have found some voyages in the papers in 1834 & 1835 master was TAIT > (I am told Thomas TAIT) > > Apparently Thomas TAIT died at sea off Guiana in 1835 > > And in 1837 & 1838 with a master DUNNING > > A long shot but wondered if anyone could add to that very sparse knowledge > > I am unsure if George ANDERSON owned the ship in his own name or more > likely as George ANDERSON and Company (London and Glasgow) > > Partners were George ANDERSON, Alexander, Thomas & Robert SMITH and > possibly John HAYLOCK > > -- > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

This article is not relevant to me, but SO interesting - as usual. Thanks so much, Paul. Judith Williams, East Gippsland, Victoria, Australia. On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 4:41 AM, Paul Benyon <[email protected]>wrote: > Hello Jo, > > Yes, prior to 1853, whilst most seamen would probably try to stay with > what they were familiar with, either the Royal Navy or the Merchant > Service, from service records I've seen for men who claimed pensions > having managed to remain in the R.N. for as many as 20 or more years. > > But there were times when no ships were being commissioned into the > R.N., or those that were being commissioned may have been commanded by > officers with reputations for unnecessary floggings, a result of which > was that it often took many months to recruit crews for some of the > bigger ships, so rather than hang around the dockyard gates men would > seek out merchant vessels. > > Similarly, when economic times were hard and there was a downturn in > trade, and the demand for Merchant Seamen declined, they would often > try their luck with the R.N., but inevitably, as noted in the next > paragraph the greater demands on the Admiralty and Merchant Ship > owners often coincided > > After 1853, with the onset of the Crimea War, it was a case of old > habits died hard, and with a high demand for good quality merchant > shipping from both the French and the British governments, for long > distance hauls, and to a lesser degree by the Turkish and Sardinian > governments, and the support for British and French forces in the > Baltic, the wages for merchant seamen are said to have increased to > attract those who may have been thinking about joining the R.N. and > signing-on with a guarantee of qualifying for a pension, especially if > they had already spent time in the Service, so that by the end of the > decade, circa 1859, the Admiralty was having to offer bounties to > attract men into the service when demand for seamen was strong with > the Second China War grinding longer than expected, and things not > going as well as expected, with the demand for army personnel in > India, during the Mutiny. > > However, having signed on and collected their bounties, many hundreds, > if not thousands of former civilians deserted the R.N., given the > opportunity, and found their way back on to the streets again. It > probably took another 15-20 years or more before the effects of > introducing the Continuous Service engagement in 1853 began to work as > desired, and even Circa 1886 the Admiralty was tinkering with the > engagement structure, extending the pensionable engagement from 20 to > 22 years, with a view to reducing costs. > > And poor conditions in the service were still causing problems in the > early 1900s,when the Admiralty introduced the Short Service engagement > of 5 years in the service and 7 in the reserve, which seems to have > relieved the situation a little, but the number of deserters was still > high, running at about 1,700-1,800 a year, but with the increased > technology, particularly where gunnery was concerned, the opportunity > for seamen to work in either Service declined, and started to > disappear by about the 1870s, at about the same time that the Navy's > policy of recruiting boy seamen into the service in the 1850s-60s > really started to pay-off, as they were more inclined to remain in the > service until they reached pensionable age. > > I'm not sure how tickets were used in the Merchant Service, but I > doubt that it was much different to the Royal Navy, they were issued > to those taking leave, or being transferred from one ship to another, > etc., and it was the man's authority for being where he was : a copy > of the ticket also being sent to the receiving ship, so that they knew > you were on your way and when you were supposed to join. So perhaps > received meant that he had arrived ? > > In addition, some RN tickets were often noted with pay details, say if > you were lent to another ship temporarily or sent into hospital, so > that they could pay you without putting your account in debt. > > If, as you suggest you could send copies, or put them on-line, I > should be interested in attempting to make some sense of them. > > Regards > > Paul > PS apologies if I wandered on a little too long with the topic of > engagements. > > On Fri, 08 Nov 2013 20:44:51 +0000, Jo <[email protected]> wrote: > > >OK, I'm puzzled. I should probably look into this more before posting > >but everyone on this list is so knowledgable! > > > >I'm back to Daniel Quinn. Enlisted on board HMS Fair Rosamond as a Boy > >in 1825. With Lauretta Harris's I've managed to find quite a lot of his > >service but there are gaps because he is known to have used at least one > >alias. > > > >On FindMyPast today I found a ticket for him which I thought meant he > >had been in the merchant navy, but it mentions HMS Acorn and was > >actually issued aboard HMS Acorn while it was stationed on the River > >Uruguay (26th August 1846). I know that Continuous Service didn't start > >till around 1853. Were the two services interchangeable or was this > >just another way of recording sailors? > > > >I also can't make out the word in the very last 'Remarks' column. It > >looks like 'Received', but received what? > > > >There are also some hieroglyphics in his last entry on the record in > >1848. It looks like 'Paid off 8/11/ ??' but this doesn't tie up with > >other records (from memory, the ship's muster book), which had him being > >discharged from HSM Acorn on 26th March 1848. > > > >Anyone care to have a stab at it if I were to forward it by e-mail? I > >can read the rest of it. Interestingly, the fact that he is usually > >resident in Lambeth when not working gives me a clue as to where and > >when he died! > > > >Thanks in advance. > > > > > >Jo > > > > > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W > http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello listers, Were Merchant ships passenger ships as well?  I am searching for more information regarding ships from London to Vera Cruz in the 1820's, when England had commercial interests in Mexico.   I can find very few on Ancestry.com departing from London to New York, then on to Vera Cruz.   Tracing the Merchant ships departing Vera Cruz, arriving to New York and then to London is sparse.  And perhaps they didn't take that route.  Is it possible Passenger ships and Merchant ships are listed in separate categories?   Can someone point me in the right direction,or know of a link for ships other than the Royal Navy ships?   Thanks, Susan

Jo the question will be.. where did you locate the ticket.. if it was BT or Registrar of Seaman then he was a merchant man.. if the series was ADM then likely to be Navy. folks moved between the services.. but your period is later than my interest so I can't be specific. No doubt others will give more information. cheers Chris *Chris Maxworthy* *NSW Councillor* *Australian Association for Maritime History* (AAMH) *http://aamh.academia.edu/ChrisMaxworthy <http://aamh.academia.edu/ChrisMaxworthy>* On 9 November 2013 19:00, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Captain's Steward (Peter Monks) > 2. Royal and Merchant Navies - cross-overs? (Jo) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 06:59:25 -0700 > From: Peter Monks <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [MAR] Captain's Steward > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Greetings. Generally he was a waiter, in this case specifically to the > Captain, to whoom he cared for. He would supervise the other waiters, > dress standards, smartness, clean appearance, was generally stood behind > the Captain at meal times to regulate the meals, arrival times, wine or > spirits to be ready as needed. He would clean and press the Captains > uniform, laying out ahead of time, to be smart and ready as needed, try not > to spill the meals or wines no matter how rough the seas, the Captain might > not like it. > > Peter in Canada, once Captains steward on a Swedish ship, but seasick not > helping!! > > > On Nov 6, 2013, at 1:35 AM, Don Taig <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Hi Listers, > > > > Just an update for those who have provided previous assistance- I have > managed to track down George Sutton on the Norfolk ON 11920 and am in the > process of getting the crew agreements and so on I have been seeking. > > Thank you. > > > > On a general query, can anyone help either with a general understanding, > or point me in the way of an appropriate source for what the duties of a > Captain's Steward would have been in the early 1870's for a merchant seaman? > > > > Your assistance as usual will be wonderful. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Don > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2013 20:44:51 +0000 > From: Jo <[email protected]> > Subject: [MAR] Royal and Merchant Navies - cross-overs? > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > OK, I'm puzzled. I should probably look into this more before posting > but everyone on this list is so knowledgable! > > I'm back to Daniel Quinn. Enlisted on board HMS Fair Rosamond as a Boy > in 1825. With Lauretta Harris's I've managed to find quite a lot of his > service but there are gaps because he is known to have used at least one > alias. > > On FindMyPast today I found a ticket for him which I thought meant he > had been in the merchant navy, but it mentions HMS Acorn and was > actually issued aboard HMS Acorn while it was stationed on the River > Uruguay (26th August 1846). I know that Continuous Service didn't start > till around 1853. Were the two services interchangeable or was this > just another way of recording sailors? > > I also can't make out the word in the very last 'Remarks' column. It > looks like 'Received', but received what? > > There are also some hieroglyphics in his last entry on the record in > 1848. It looks like 'Paid off 8/11/ ??' but this doesn't tie up with > other records (from memory, the ship's muster book), which had him being > discharged from HSM Acorn on 26th March 1848. > > Anyone care to have a stab at it if I were to forward it by e-mail? I > can read the rest of it. Interestingly, the fact that he is usually > resident in Lambeth when not working gives me a clue as to where and > when he died! > > Thanks in advance. > > > Jo > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the MARINERS list administrator, send an email to > [email protected] > > To post a message to the MARINERS mailing list, send an email to > [email protected] > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of MARINERS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 353 > **************************************** > --

Hello Jo, Yes, prior to 1853, whilst most seamen would probably try to stay with what they were familiar with, either the Royal Navy or the Merchant Service, from service records I've seen for men who claimed pensions having managed to remain in the R.N. for as many as 20 or more years. But there were times when no ships were being commissioned into the R.N., or those that were being commissioned may have been commanded by officers with reputations for unnecessary floggings, a result of which was that it often took many months to recruit crews for some of the bigger ships, so rather than hang around the dockyard gates men would seek out merchant vessels. Similarly, when economic times were hard and there was a downturn in trade, and the demand for Merchant Seamen declined, they would often try their luck with the R.N., but inevitably, as noted in the next paragraph the greater demands on the Admiralty and Merchant Ship owners often coincided After 1853, with the onset of the Crimea War, it was a case of old habits died hard, and with a high demand for good quality merchant shipping from both the French and the British governments, for long distance hauls, and to a lesser degree by the Turkish and Sardinian governments, and the support for British and French forces in the Baltic, the wages for merchant seamen are said to have increased to attract those who may have been thinking about joining the R.N. and signing-on with a guarantee of qualifying for a pension, especially if they had already spent time in the Service, so that by the end of the decade, circa 1859, the Admiralty was having to offer bounties to attract men into the service when demand for seamen was strong with the Second China War grinding longer than expected, and things not going as well as expected, with the demand for army personnel in India, during the Mutiny. However, having signed on and collected their bounties, many hundreds, if not thousands of former civilians deserted the R.N., given the opportunity, and found their way back on to the streets again. It probably took another 15-20 years or more before the effects of introducing the Continuous Service engagement in 1853 began to work as desired, and even Circa 1886 the Admiralty was tinkering with the engagement structure, extending the pensionable engagement from 20 to 22 years, with a view to reducing costs. And poor conditions in the service were still causing problems in the early 1900s,when the Admiralty introduced the Short Service engagement of 5 years in the service and 7 in the reserve, which seems to have relieved the situation a little, but the number of deserters was still high, running at about 1,700-1,800 a year, but with the increased technology, particularly where gunnery was concerned, the opportunity for seamen to work in either Service declined, and started to disappear by about the 1870s, at about the same time that the Navy's policy of recruiting boy seamen into the service in the 1850s-60s really started to pay-off, as they were more inclined to remain in the service until they reached pensionable age. I'm not sure how tickets were used in the Merchant Service, but I doubt that it was much different to the Royal Navy, they were issued to those taking leave, or being transferred from one ship to another, etc., and it was the man's authority for being where he was : a copy of the ticket also being sent to the receiving ship, so that they knew you were on your way and when you were supposed to join. So perhaps received meant that he had arrived ? In addition, some RN tickets were often noted with pay details, say if you were lent to another ship temporarily or sent into hospital, so that they could pay you without putting your account in debt. If, as you suggest you could send copies, or put them on-line, I should be interested in attempting to make some sense of them. Regards Paul PS apologies if I wandered on a little too long with the topic of engagements. On Fri, 08 Nov 2013 20:44:51 +0000, Jo <[email protected]> wrote: >OK, I'm puzzled. I should probably look into this more before posting >but everyone on this list is so knowledgable! > >I'm back to Daniel Quinn. Enlisted on board HMS Fair Rosamond as a Boy >in 1825. With Lauretta Harris's I've managed to find quite a lot of his >service but there are gaps because he is known to have used at least one >alias. > >On FindMyPast today I found a ticket for him which I thought meant he >had been in the merchant navy, but it mentions HMS Acorn and was >actually issued aboard HMS Acorn while it was stationed on the River >Uruguay (26th August 1846). I know that Continuous Service didn't start >till around 1853. Were the two services interchangeable or was this >just another way of recording sailors? > >I also can't make out the word in the very last 'Remarks' column. It >looks like 'Received', but received what? > >There are also some hieroglyphics in his last entry on the record in >1848. It looks like 'Paid off 8/11/ ??' but this doesn't tie up with >other records (from memory, the ship's muster book), which had him being >discharged from HSM Acorn on 26th March 1848. > >Anyone care to have a stab at it if I were to forward it by e-mail? I >can read the rest of it. Interestingly, the fact that he is usually >resident in Lambeth when not working gives me a clue as to where and >when he died! > >Thanks in advance. > > >Jo > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message 50° 33' N, 2° 26' W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html

Sorry about that yes the brain slipped, should be 1799 Mick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Read" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2013 10:51 AM Subject: Re: [MAR] The Barwell > Mick: to state the BO, is it possible your pen slipped, and she was > bought > in 1799.?? > > Graham > > > On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 10:39 AM, Mick O Rourke < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Christine >> Lloyds Registers say Fletcher bought Barwell in 1899. >> She had her last survey in 1800, her master was J. Toole, the details >> remain >> unchanged up to 1807 and she is not listed after that. This suggests to >> me >> that she was off the register soon after 1800, at this time she was 19 >> years >> old and in poor condition, could she have lasted another 11 years ?. >> What is your source for the 1811 incident ? . >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John & Christine Hughes" <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 5:32 PM >> Subject: [MAR] The Barwell >> >> >> Hello >> >> I wonder if anyone could help please? I have been helping an elderly >> friend >> compile his family history and in doing so have established that his >> relative Richard Haycocks was sent for transportation to Port Jackson, >> Sydney in 1798. He was on board The Barwell which was chartered by the >> East >> India Company. >> >> We have decided at the present time to try and discover more about The >> Barwell. We have discovered that after the convict run she returned to >> the >> cargo runs that she had done before. She was sold in 1804 to Fletcher & >> Co. >> In 1811 she was to sail to Lisbon, Portugal and after unloading it is >> reported that she was run away with by her Captain - John Poole. >> >> We have two questions that we are trying to find the answer to but keep >> hitting a brick wall, the questions are as follows:- >> >> 1 What happend to The Barwell, where did she end up. Was she resold, >> scrapped or shipwrecked? >> >> 2 Any information on Captain John Poole what happend to him? >> >> In the course of our research we have made contact with another >> researcher >> in Australia who like us was looking for an image of The Barwell as he >> too >> had found that a relative had sailed on her. >> >> We have exchanged information and at present is trying to track down an >> image of The Barwell as we speak. We have tried every resource possible >> in >> trying to establish information on The Barwell, including LLoyds Register >> where she is registered until 1807 then she disappears. >> >> We would appreciate any suggestions or information that anybody could >> give >> us - Thank You. >> >> Thanks >> Christine Hughes >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message