Bill, At 11:17 PM 1/9/03 -0600, Bill Churchill wrote: >I research English Churchill families so I am familiar with the Ottery >Saint Mary registers. I discovered Robert while researching Devon >Rockbeare Churchills. Robert was a follower of the Rev. Joseph Hull an >Anglican non-conformist of the type that later became >Congregationalists. I've been trying to put together Robert's family >group from Martin researchers on the Martin List but have received >conflicting information. I agree when you say many early Martin sources >are mixed up. > >After receiving your message I checked the LDS (IGI M002761) batch file >(this is the real parish register listing without all the "submitter" >trash) and found a baptism record for your John son of Richard bp 1653. >It says he was baptised 20 JAN 1653 and lists his parents as Richard >"Martyn" with mother "Eliza." Thank you, I had no way of knowing this >was the Rehoboth Richard. > >I did not find a baptism for the daughter c.1649 but did find several >Annis, Anne & Agnes -- those were common female names among OSM Martins. >It turns out that the IGI is not complete for OSM so this may be why >there is no listing for your Ann/Agnes. > >Martin List researchers do have conflicting information. Some have >Richard with wife Elizabeth Salter and 2nd married to Judith Upham the >younger sister of Robert's wife Johanna. Thank you for sharing the info you got from the Ottery... church registries. Judith as Richard's 2nd marriage is an interesting thought. However, as Torrey, Sanborn and Richard's will - as quoted by Harlow in his message to us - doesn't mention a wife or 2nd wife named Judith, at this point I'm only considering that piece of data as speculation at best but still interesting. >The LDS IGI (the real IGI) for OSM has quite a number of Martins but no >one I recognize as Robert and no Johanna Upham -- or any Uphams for that >matter. I checked the Batcombe, Somerset registers and did not find >Robert -- and no other Martins save a single Christopher Martin. >However, church registration only started late in the 16th century so >Robert's age is pushing a bit the time for registries. As to the marriage of Robert and Joanne UPHAM, one of my sources was Sanborn whose supplements to Torrey you know doubt know about but for lurkers who don't here's the cite: Melinde Lutz Sanborn, Supplement_to_Torrey's_New_England_Marriages_Prior_to_1700 (Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1991), p. 46. [Her source: NEHGR 127:28]. Anyways, I checked NEHGR 127:28 to see what it actually said. The article starts on p. 27 and is: Harris, Col. Edward M. "Ottery Saint Mary Origin of Thomas Harris" in The_New_England_Historical_&_Genealogical_ Register, Vol. 127 (Jan 1973) (CD; Boston: NEHGR & Broderbund Software, Inc., 1996). p. 28 says: "....As made evident by the late Mary Lovering Holman in her series of 'Notes on Some Immigrants from Ottery St Mary, Devon, England' (The_ American_ Genealogist, 16:88-95, 132-5, 205-6), emigration to New England was particularly popular in that parish, and a fertile field for those seeking the English origins of early New England families exists there. For instance, there appears in The_Register (23:33) a note to the effect that Deacon John Upham of Malden, Mass., based on the evidence of then existing records, was 'brother-in-law' of Joanna, wife of Robert Martin of Rehoboth, Mass., and of Richard Webb of Weymouth, Mass. In the Ottery register, however, appears recorded the marriage of one Robert Martin and Johane Upham on 16 Nov. 1618. One can therefore conclude that John Upham and Joanna Martin were brother and sister. One Richard Martyn and Elizabeth Salter were married at Ottery on 9 June 1630, quite likely he being that much younger brother of Robert who died "aged" at Rehoboth, leaving a will proved 7 May 1695 (Charles H. Pope, The Pioneers of Massachusetts, 1900, p. 303)." >Questions: > >Do you know if there is will/probate for Richard? I only knew of the parts about his daughter Annis and son John but with Harlow's message I found the will in NEHGR 63:79 : Greenlaw, Lucy Hall. "Abstracts from the First Book Bristol Probate Records" in The_New_England_Historical_&_Genealogical Register, Vol. 63 (Jan 1909) (CD; Boston: NEHGR & Broderbund Software, Inc., 1996). It was written/dated 2 June 1686 and probated 9 May 1695. Boy, it is hard to read - faded. His son John was sole executor and his "good friends Deacon Samuel Newman and Wm. Carpenter overseers. It mentions: Sons: John in new England and sons Richard and Francis still in old England Daughter: Annis md. to CHAFFEE and Grace md. to ORMSBY Grandsons: John (eldest son of Richard), 2 sons (unnamed)of Francis, and John ORMSBY (eldest son of Grace) It appears the old England children could not claim their inheritance unless they came on over. An inventory of his estate was "sworn to" on 7 May 1695. I have checked my db again and found I have Grace (MARTIN) ORMSBY in it! I didn't have her parents, etc... Now with Harlow's message (thank you again and again Harlow) and subsequence research I can connect her to Richard. My info on Grace comes more or less from my SABIN line. A sibling of my SABIN md. a dau. of John and Grace (MARTIN) ORMSBY - Israel/2 SABIN md. 1696 Mary ORMSBY. I have 5 issue for John and Grace (MARTIN) ORMSBY. However, this info is not set in concrete for some of the names comes from Savage and I haven't been able to verify them: Grace - from MF5GBillington and SABIN genealogy (source: Arnold's VR Rehoboth) Elizabeth - from Savage Mary - from MF5GBillington, SABIN (source: Arnold's VR Rehoboth) and Savage Jonathan - from Savage Martha - from Savage Note: only mentions 1 son while the will of Richard says, "John Omsby- my daughter Grace's eldest son." >Do you have background information on Richard Martin? From what I have >learned he certainly wasn't in any hurry to assume his brother's >Rehoboth freehold. Devon records suggest he had something to do with >maritime shipping or commerce -- ship's officer, owner's agent, owner or >part owner. One record suggests he captained the bark Blessing. > >Which class of gentry was Richard? Sorry I know nothing about his background. As to involvement in maritime stuff and such again I haven't a bit of data to prove one way or another. His inventory - only a bible mentioned - and will suggests nothing maritime. I do have a couple of land transactions for him involving his son John and son-in-law Joseph CHAFFEE. Here's one involving the land he inherited from Robert from Book 2 of Rehoboth Land Records - according to the CHAFFEE genealogy - says "book two of the Rehoboth Land Records...Richard Martin acknowledged having given to his son-in-law, Joseph Chaffee, 'ffourteen pounds estate in commonage,' in Rehoboth, which was given him by the will of his brother, Robert Martin." Sorry, I haven't more detail on Richard. You have given me much more than I have added to this thread. Thank you. --- Susan SGTAYLOR1@att.net My Genealogy Website - sgt http://home.att.net/~SGTAYLOR1/ ----------------------------------------------- USGW Mansfield, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcmansf/ USGW New London, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcnewlo/ USGW Norwich, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcnorwi/ USGW Windham, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcwindh/ USGW Coordinator Plymouth Co., MA - http://www.rootsweb.com/~maplymou/ USGW Plymouth, MA - http://www.rootsweb.com/~macplymo/ ********************************************************* >Regards, >Bill Churchill > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Susan Taylor [mailto:SGTaylor1@att.net] >Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:00 PM >To: MAPLYMOU-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [PLY/MA] Rehoboth, Plymouth Colony Richard Martin > >Bill, > >At 09:39 AM 1/8/03 -0600, you wrote: >Does anyone on the list have the children of the early Richard Martin of >Rehoboth, Plymouth Colony? > >This Richard Martin was the younger brother of Robert Martin the first >Martin settler of Rehoboth. Richard came to the colony sometime between >1668 and 1689 and was married to Judith Upham. > >Going to start at the end of your message. Richard was married to >Elizabeth SALTER per: > >1. Melinde Lutz Sanborn, Supplement to Torrey's New England Marriages >Prior to 1700 (Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., t1991), >p. 46. [Her source: NEHGR 127:28]. "MARTYN, Richard & Elizabeth SALTER; >m 9 June 1630 Ottery St Mary, co Devon." > >2. Harriet W. Hodge, Mayflower Families Through Five Generations, >Descendants of the Pilgrims Who landed at Plymouth, Mass. December 1620: >Edward Winslow - John Billington, Vol. Five (Billington section) >(Plymouth, MA: General Society of Mayflower Descendants, 1991), p. 46. >[Her source: Ottery Saint Mary Church, 1601-1837, p. 283]. >"JOHN MARTIN, bp. Ottery St. Mary, Devonshire, England 20 Jan. 1652/3, >d. Rehoboth 28 Aug. 1720; son of Richard and Elizabeth (Salter) >Martin.[4] > >3. Clarence Almon Torrey, New England Marriages Prior to 1700 >(Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1985), p. 492. >"MARTIN, Richard (-1694?, 1695?) (bro of Abraham) & Elizabeth SALTER (is >this reliable?); 9 Jun 1631, b 1633; Rehoboth." > >Robert was married to Joanna UPHAM per: > >1. Melinde Lutz Sanborn, Supplement to Torrey's New England Marriages >Prior to 1700 (Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1991), >p. 46. [Her source: NEHGR 127:28]. "MARTIN, Robert & Joanna UPHAM; m 16 >Nov 1618 Ottery St Mary, co Devon." > >3. Clarence Almon Torrey, New England Marriages Prior to 1700 >(Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1985), p. 493. >"MARTIN, Robert .... & Joanna UPHAM (1591-1669?) (sis of John); prob bef >1620...." > >As to the children of Richard and Elizabeth (SALTER) MARTIN, at this >time I have only 2 issues listed for them. There may be more but I >haven't stumbled on them yet. I have: > >1. Annis/Anne/Agnes/ b. c1649 prob in Eng.- d. 1730 Barrington, Bristol >Co. MA - now in RI. She married 1670 in Swansea Joseph/2 CHAFFEE. They >are my ancestors. > >2. John bp. 1653 Ottery St. Mary's Church, Devonshire, England - died >1720 Rehoboth, MA. His first marriage 1681 in Rehoboth was to Mercy/3 >BILLINGTON and second marriage 1719 Rehoboth to Abigail READ. > >These are the only issue I have for them at this time. > >Richard was not only brother of Robert but of Abraham too. The CHAFFEE >genealogy says on p. 21, in "book two of the Rehoboth Land Records... >Richard Martin acknowledged having given to his son-in-law, Joseph >Chaffee, 'ffourteen pounds estate in commonage,' in Rehoboth, which was >given him by the will of his brother, Robert Martin." > >and Torrey, p. 492, says Richard was brother of Abraham. > >Probably the only sure source of issue for Richard and Elizabeth >(SALTER) MARTIN are the church registries of Ottery St. Mary's Church, >Devonshire, England. Any children for them would have had to be born >before they immigrated because they were probably in their 50 and 60s. >The LDS/FHC probably have the church registries on microfilm. You really >have to be careful in any data/research done on any early New England >Richard MARTIN for there were several Richard MARTIN >progenitor/immigrants. Many many early sources have really mixed up on >their Richard info by crediting info to the wrong Richards. > > > > > >==== MAPLYMOU Mailing List ==== > ====MAPLYMOU-L/D Mail List===== > +-+ Owners = List Members +-+ > =Administrator Frederick M. Dittmar= > ====== fred@dittmar.net ====== > >============================== >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, >go to: >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

Hi Folks: I believe that I have Richard Martin, as well, but haven't yet gone any further than the "Martin-Pridmore Family Record", a privately printed genealogy which didn't always give source cites. Just want to confirm that Richard's son John is the same man that married Johanna Esten ca. 1671 at Swansea MA, died Swansea 1712/13 before I go further into primary sources. Thanks, Melissa Susan Taylor wrote: > Bill, > > At 11:17 PM 1/9/03 -0600, Bill Churchill wrote: > > >I research English Churchill families so I am familiar with the Ottery > >Saint Mary registers. I discovered Robert while researching Devon > >Rockbeare Churchills. Robert was a follower of the Rev. Joseph Hull an > >Anglican non-conformist of the type that later became > >Congregationalists. I've been trying to put together Robert's family > >group from Martin researchers on the Martin List but have received > >conflicting information. I agree when you say many early Martin sources > >are mixed up. > > > >After receiving your message I checked the LDS (IGI M002761) batch file > >(this is the real parish register listing without all the "submitter" > >trash) and found a baptism record for your John son of Richard bp 1653. > >It says he was baptised 20 JAN 1653 and lists his parents as Richard > >"Martyn" with mother "Eliza." Thank you, I had no way of knowing this > >was the Rehoboth Richard. > > > >I did not find a baptism for the daughter c.1649 but did find several > >Annis, Anne & Agnes -- those were common female names among OSM Martins. > >It turns out that the IGI is not complete for OSM so this may be why > >there is no listing for your Ann/Agnes. > > > >Martin List researchers do have conflicting information. Some have > >Richard with wife Elizabeth Salter and 2nd married to Judith Upham the > >younger sister of Robert's wife Johanna. > > Thank you for sharing the info you got from the Ottery... church > registries. Judith as Richard's 2nd marriage is an interesting thought. > However, as Torrey, Sanborn and Richard's will - as quoted by Harlow in his > message to us - doesn't mention a wife or 2nd wife named Judith, at this > point I'm only considering that piece of data as speculation at best but > still interesting. > > >The LDS IGI (the real IGI) for OSM has quite a number of Martins but no > >one I recognize as Robert and no Johanna Upham -- or any Uphams for that > >matter. I checked the Batcombe, Somerset registers and did not find > >Robert -- and no other Martins save a single Christopher Martin. > >However, church registration only started late in the 16th century so > >Robert's age is pushing a bit the time for registries. > > As to the marriage of Robert and Joanne UPHAM, one of my sources was > Sanborn whose supplements to Torrey you know doubt know about but for > lurkers who don't here's the cite: > > Melinde Lutz Sanborn, > Supplement_to_Torrey's_New_England_Marriages_Prior_to_1700 (Baltimore, MD: > Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1991), p. 46. [Her source: NEHGR 127:28]. > > Anyways, I checked NEHGR 127:28 to see what it actually said. The article > starts on p. 27 and is: > > Harris, Col. Edward M. "Ottery Saint Mary Origin of Thomas Harris" in > The_New_England_Historical_&_Genealogical_ Register, Vol. 127 (Jan 1973) > (CD; Boston: NEHGR & Broderbund Software, Inc., 1996). > > p. 28 says: > > "....As made evident by the late Mary Lovering Holman in her series of > 'Notes on Some Immigrants from Ottery St Mary, Devon, England' (The_ > American_ Genealogist, 16:88-95, 132-5, 205-6), emigration to New England > was particularly popular in that parish, and a fertile field for those > seeking the English origins of early New England families exists there. For > instance, there appears in The_Register (23:33) a note to the effect that > Deacon John Upham of Malden, Mass., based on the evidence of then existing > records, was 'brother-in-law' of Joanna, wife of Robert Martin of Rehoboth, > Mass., and of Richard Webb of Weymouth, Mass. In the Ottery register, > however, appears recorded the marriage of one Robert Martin and Johane > Upham on 16 Nov. 1618. One can therefore conclude that John Upham and > Joanna Martin were brother and sister. One Richard Martyn and Elizabeth > Salter were married at Ottery on 9 June 1630, quite likely he being that > much younger brother of Robert who died "aged" at Rehoboth, leaving a will > proved 7 May 1695 (Charles H. Pope, The Pioneers of Massachusetts, 1900, p. > 303)." > > >Questions: > > > >Do you know if there is will/probate for Richard? > > I only knew of the parts about his daughter Annis and son John but with > Harlow's message I found the will in NEHGR 63:79 : > > Greenlaw, Lucy Hall. "Abstracts from the First Book Bristol Probate > Records" in The_New_England_Historical_&_Genealogical Register, Vol. 63 > (Jan 1909) (CD; Boston: NEHGR & Broderbund Software, Inc., 1996). > > It was written/dated 2 June 1686 and probated 9 May 1695. Boy, it is hard > to read - faded. His son John was sole executor and his "good friends > Deacon Samuel Newman and Wm. Carpenter overseers. It mentions: > > Sons: John in new England and sons Richard and Francis still in old England > Daughter: Annis md. to CHAFFEE and Grace md. to ORMSBY > Grandsons: John (eldest son of Richard), 2 sons (unnamed)of Francis, and > John ORMSBY (eldest son of Grace) > > It appears the old England children could not claim their inheritance > unless they came on over. An inventory of his estate was "sworn to" on 7 > May 1695. > > I have checked my db again and found I have Grace (MARTIN) ORMSBY in it! I > didn't have her parents, etc... Now with Harlow's message (thank you again > and again Harlow) and subsequence research I can connect her to Richard. My > info on Grace comes more or less from my SABIN line. A sibling of my SABIN > md. a dau. of John and Grace (MARTIN) ORMSBY - Israel/2 SABIN md. 1696 Mary > ORMSBY. I have 5 issue for John and Grace (MARTIN) ORMSBY. However, this > info is not set in concrete for some of the names comes from Savage and I > haven't been able to verify them: > > Grace - from MF5GBillington and SABIN genealogy (source: Arnold's VR Rehoboth) > Elizabeth - from Savage > Mary - from MF5GBillington, SABIN (source: Arnold's VR Rehoboth) and Savage > Jonathan - from Savage > Martha - from Savage > > Note: only mentions 1 son while the will of Richard says, "John Omsby- my > daughter Grace's eldest son." > > >Do you have background information on Richard Martin? From what I have > >learned he certainly wasn't in any hurry to assume his brother's > >Rehoboth freehold. Devon records suggest he had something to do with > >maritime shipping or commerce -- ship's officer, owner's agent, owner or > >part owner. One record suggests he captained the bark Blessing. > > > >Which class of gentry was Richard? > > Sorry I know nothing about his background. As to involvement in maritime > stuff and such again I haven't a bit of data to prove one way or another. > His inventory - only a bible mentioned - and will suggests nothing > maritime. I do have a couple of land transactions for him involving his son > John and son-in-law Joseph CHAFFEE. Here's one involving the land he > inherited from Robert from Book 2 of Rehoboth Land Records - according to > the CHAFFEE genealogy - says > > "book two of the Rehoboth Land Records...Richard Martin acknowledged > having given to his son-in-law, Joseph Chaffee, 'ffourteen pounds estate in > commonage,' in Rehoboth, which was given him by the will of his brother, > Robert Martin." > > Sorry, I haven't more detail on Richard. You have given me much more than I > have added to this thread. Thank you. > > --- Susan > SGTAYLOR1@att.net > My Genealogy Website - sgt > http://home.att.net/~SGTAYLOR1/ > ----------------------------------------------- > USGW Mansfield, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcmansf/ > USGW New London, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcnewlo/ > USGW Norwich, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcnorwi/ > USGW Windham, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcwindh/ > USGW Coordinator Plymouth Co., MA - http://www.rootsweb.com/~maplymou/ > USGW Plymouth, MA - http://www.rootsweb.com/~macplymo/ > ********************************************************* > > >Regards, > >Bill Churchill > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Susan Taylor [mailto:SGTaylor1@att.net] > >Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:00 PM > >To: MAPLYMOU-L@rootsweb.com > >Subject: Re: [PLY/MA] Rehoboth, Plymouth Colony Richard Martin > > > >Bill, > > > >At 09:39 AM 1/8/03 -0600, you wrote: > >Does anyone on the list have the children of the early Richard Martin of > >Rehoboth, Plymouth Colony? > > > >This Richard Martin was the younger brother of Robert Martin the first > >Martin settler of Rehoboth. Richard came to the colony sometime between > >1668 and 1689 and was married to Judith Upham. > > > >Going to start at the end of your message. Richard was married to > >Elizabeth SALTER per: > > > >1. Melinde Lutz Sanborn, Supplement to Torrey's New England Marriages > >Prior to 1700 (Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., t1991), > >p. 46. [Her source: NEHGR 127:28]. "MARTYN, Richard & Elizabeth SALTER; > >m 9 June 1630 Ottery St Mary, co Devon." > > > >2. Harriet W. Hodge, Mayflower Families Through Five Generations, > >Descendants of the Pilgrims Who landed at Plymouth, Mass. December 1620: > >Edward Winslow - John Billington, Vol. Five (Billington section) > >(Plymouth, MA: General Society of Mayflower Descendants, 1991), p. 46. > >[Her source: Ottery Saint Mary Church, 1601-1837, p. 283]. > >"JOHN MARTIN, bp. Ottery St. Mary, Devonshire, England 20 Jan. 1652/3, > >d. Rehoboth 28 Aug. 1720; son of Richard and Elizabeth (Salter) > >Martin.[4] > > > >3. Clarence Almon Torrey, New England Marriages Prior to 1700 > >(Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1985), p. 492. > >"MARTIN, Richard (-1694?, 1695?) (bro of Abraham) & Elizabeth SALTER (is > >this reliable?); 9 Jun 1631, b 1633; Rehoboth." > > > >Robert was married to Joanna UPHAM per: > > > >1. Melinde Lutz Sanborn, Supplement to Torrey's New England Marriages > >Prior to 1700 (Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1991), > >p. 46. [Her source: NEHGR 127:28]. "MARTIN, Robert & Joanna UPHAM; m 16 > >Nov 1618 Ottery St Mary, co Devon." > > > >3. Clarence Almon Torrey, New England Marriages Prior to 1700 > >(Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1985), p. 493. > >"MARTIN, Robert .... & Joanna UPHAM (1591-1669?) (sis of John); prob bef > >1620...." > > > >As to the children of Richard and Elizabeth (SALTER) MARTIN, at this > >time I have only 2 issues listed for them. There may be more but I > >haven't stumbled on them yet. I have: > > > >1. Annis/Anne/Agnes/ b. c1649 prob in Eng.- d. 1730 Barrington, Bristol > >Co. MA - now in RI. She married 1670 in Swansea Joseph/2 CHAFFEE. They > >are my ancestors. > > > >2. John bp. 1653 Ottery St. Mary's Church, Devonshire, England - died > >1720 Rehoboth, MA. His first marriage 1681 in Rehoboth was to Mercy/3 > >BILLINGTON and second marriage 1719 Rehoboth to Abigail READ. > > > >These are the only issue I have for them at this time. > > > >Richard was not only brother of Robert but of Abraham too. The CHAFFEE > >genealogy says on p. 21, in "book two of the Rehoboth Land Records... > >Richard Martin acknowledged having given to his son-in-law, Joseph > >Chaffee, 'ffourteen pounds estate in commonage,' in Rehoboth, which was > >given him by the will of his brother, Robert Martin." > > > >and Torrey, p. 492, says Richard was brother of Abraham. > > > >Probably the only sure source of issue for Richard and Elizabeth > >(SALTER) MARTIN are the church registries of Ottery St. Mary's Church, > >Devonshire, England. Any children for them would have had to be born > >before they immigrated because they were probably in their 50 and 60s. > >The LDS/FHC probably have the church registries on microfilm. You really > >have to be careful in any data/research done on any early New England > >Richard MARTIN for there were several Richard MARTIN > >progenitor/immigrants. Many many early sources have really mixed up on > >their Richard info by crediting info to the wrong Richards. > > > > > > > > > > > >==== MAPLYMOU Mailing List ==== > > ====MAPLYMOU-L/D Mail List===== > > +-+ Owners = List Members +-+ > > =Administrator Frederick M. Dittmar= > > ====== fred@dittmar.net ====== > > > >============================== > >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > >go to: > >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > ==== MAPLYMOU Mailing List ==== > ====MAPLYMOU-L/D Mail List===== > +-+ Owners = List Members +-+ > =Administrator Frederick M. Dittmar= > ====== fred@dittmar.net ====== > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

The baptism of Annis/Agnes Martin, dau of Richard & Elizabeth (Salter) Martin is given in NEHGR 142:351. Source is cited as Mayflower Quarterly 49[1983]:175. mwyant@attglobal.net wrote: > Hi Folks: > I believe that I have Richard Martin, as well, but haven't yet gone any further than > the "Martin-Pridmore Family Record", a privately printed genealogy which didn't > always give source cites. > > Just want to confirm that Richard's son John is the same man that married Johanna > Esten ca. 1671 at Swansea MA, died Swansea 1712/13 before I go further into primary > sources. > > Thanks, > Melissa > > Susan Taylor wrote: > > > Bill, > > > > At 11:17 PM 1/9/03 -0600, Bill Churchill wrote: > > > > >I research English Churchill families so I am familiar with the Ottery > > >Saint Mary registers. I discovered Robert while researching Devon > > >Rockbeare Churchills. Robert was a follower of the Rev. Joseph Hull an > > >Anglican non-conformist of the type that later became > > >Congregationalists. I've been trying to put together Robert's family > > >group from Martin researchers on the Martin List but have received > > >conflicting information. I agree when you say many early Martin sources > > >are mixed up. > > > > > >After receiving your message I checked the LDS (IGI M002761) batch file > > >(this is the real parish register listing without all the "submitter" > > >trash) and found a baptism record for your John son of Richard bp 1653. > > >It says he was baptised 20 JAN 1653 and lists his parents as Richard > > >"Martyn" with mother "Eliza." Thank you, I had no way of knowing this > > >was the Rehoboth Richard. > > > > > >I did not find a baptism for the daughter c.1649 but did find several > > >Annis, Anne & Agnes -- those were common female names among OSM Martins. > > >It turns out that the IGI is not complete for OSM so this may be why > > >there is no listing for your Ann/Agnes. > > > > > >Martin List researchers do have conflicting information. Some have > > >Richard with wife Elizabeth Salter and 2nd married to Judith Upham the > > >younger sister of Robert's wife Johanna. > > > > Thank you for sharing the info you got from the Ottery... church > > registries. Judith as Richard's 2nd marriage is an interesting thought. > > However, as Torrey, Sanborn and Richard's will - as quoted by Harlow in his > > message to us - doesn't mention a wife or 2nd wife named Judith, at this > > point I'm only considering that piece of data as speculation at best but > > still interesting. > > > > >The LDS IGI (the real IGI) for OSM has quite a number of Martins but no > > >one I recognize as Robert and no Johanna Upham -- or any Uphams for that > > >matter. I checked the Batcombe, Somerset registers and did not find > > >Robert -- and no other Martins save a single Christopher Martin. > > >However, church registration only started late in the 16th century so > > >Robert's age is pushing a bit the time for registries. > > > > As to the marriage of Robert and Joanne UPHAM, one of my sources was > > Sanborn whose supplements to Torrey you know doubt know about but for > > lurkers who don't here's the cite: > > > > Melinde Lutz Sanborn, > > Supplement_to_Torrey's_New_England_Marriages_Prior_to_1700 (Baltimore, MD: > > Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1991), p. 46. [Her source: NEHGR 127:28]. > > > > Anyways, I checked NEHGR 127:28 to see what it actually said. The article > > starts on p. 27 and is: > > > > Harris, Col. Edward M. "Ottery Saint Mary Origin of Thomas Harris" in > > The_New_England_Historical_&_Genealogical_ Register, Vol. 127 (Jan 1973) > > (CD; Boston: NEHGR & Broderbund Software, Inc., 1996). > > > > p. 28 says: > > > > "....As made evident by the late Mary Lovering Holman in her series of > > 'Notes on Some Immigrants from Ottery St Mary, Devon, England' (The_ > > American_ Genealogist, 16:88-95, 132-5, 205-6), emigration to New England > > was particularly popular in that parish, and a fertile field for those > > seeking the English origins of early New England families exists there. For > > instance, there appears in The_Register (23:33) a note to the effect that > > Deacon John Upham of Malden, Mass., based on the evidence of then existing > > records, was 'brother-in-law' of Joanna, wife of Robert Martin of Rehoboth, > > Mass., and of Richard Webb of Weymouth, Mass. In the Ottery register, > > however, appears recorded the marriage of one Robert Martin and Johane > > Upham on 16 Nov. 1618. One can therefore conclude that John Upham and > > Joanna Martin were brother and sister. One Richard Martyn and Elizabeth > > Salter were married at Ottery on 9 June 1630, quite likely he being that > > much younger brother of Robert who died "aged" at Rehoboth, leaving a will > > proved 7 May 1695 (Charles H. Pope, The Pioneers of Massachusetts, 1900, p. > > 303)." > > > > >Questions: > > > > > >Do you know if there is will/probate for Richard? > > > > I only knew of the parts about his daughter Annis and son John but with > > Harlow's message I found the will in NEHGR 63:79 : > > > > Greenlaw, Lucy Hall. "Abstracts from the First Book Bristol Probate > > Records" in The_New_England_Historical_&_Genealogical Register, Vol. 63 > > (Jan 1909) (CD; Boston: NEHGR & Broderbund Software, Inc., 1996). > > > > It was written/dated 2 June 1686 and probated 9 May 1695. Boy, it is hard > > to read - faded. His son John was sole executor and his "good friends > > Deacon Samuel Newman and Wm. Carpenter overseers. It mentions: > > > > Sons: John in new England and sons Richard and Francis still in old England > > Daughter: Annis md. to CHAFFEE and Grace md. to ORMSBY > > Grandsons: John (eldest son of Richard), 2 sons (unnamed)of Francis, and > > John ORMSBY (eldest son of Grace) > > > > It appears the old England children could not claim their inheritance > > unless they came on over. An inventory of his estate was "sworn to" on 7 > > May 1695. > > > > I have checked my db again and found I have Grace (MARTIN) ORMSBY in it! I > > didn't have her parents, etc... Now with Harlow's message (thank you again > > and again Harlow) and subsequence research I can connect her to Richard. My > > info on Grace comes more or less from my SABIN line. A sibling of my SABIN > > md. a dau. of John and Grace (MARTIN) ORMSBY - Israel/2 SABIN md. 1696 Mary > > ORMSBY. I have 5 issue for John and Grace (MARTIN) ORMSBY. However, this > > info is not set in concrete for some of the names comes from Savage and I > > haven't been able to verify them: > > > > Grace - from MF5GBillington and SABIN genealogy (source: Arnold's VR Rehoboth) > > Elizabeth - from Savage > > Mary - from MF5GBillington, SABIN (source: Arnold's VR Rehoboth) and Savage > > Jonathan - from Savage > > Martha - from Savage > > > > Note: only mentions 1 son while the will of Richard says, "John Omsby- my > > daughter Grace's eldest son." > > > > >Do you have background information on Richard Martin? From what I have > > >learned he certainly wasn't in any hurry to assume his brother's > > >Rehoboth freehold. Devon records suggest he had something to do with > > >maritime shipping or commerce -- ship's officer, owner's agent, owner or > > >part owner. One record suggests he captained the bark Blessing. > > > > > >Which class of gentry was Richard? > > > > Sorry I know nothing about his background. As to involvement in maritime > > stuff and such again I haven't a bit of data to prove one way or another. > > His inventory - only a bible mentioned - and will suggests nothing > > maritime. I do have a couple of land transactions for him involving his son > > John and son-in-law Joseph CHAFFEE. Here's one involving the land he > > inherited from Robert from Book 2 of Rehoboth Land Records - according to > > the CHAFFEE genealogy - says > > > > "book two of the Rehoboth Land Records...Richard Martin acknowledged > > having given to his son-in-law, Joseph Chaffee, 'ffourteen pounds estate in > > commonage,' in Rehoboth, which was given him by the will of his brother, > > Robert Martin." > > > > Sorry, I haven't more detail on Richard. You have given me much more than I > > have added to this thread. Thank you. > > > > --- Susan > > SGTAYLOR1@att.net > > My Genealogy Website - sgt > > http://home.att.net/~SGTAYLOR1/ > > ----------------------------------------------- > > USGW Mansfield, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcmansf/ > > USGW New London, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcnewlo/ > > USGW Norwich, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcnorwi/ > > USGW Windham, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcwindh/ > > USGW Coordinator Plymouth Co., MA - http://www.rootsweb.com/~maplymou/ > > USGW Plymouth, MA - http://www.rootsweb.com/~macplymo/ > > ********************************************************* > > > > >Regards, > > >Bill Churchill > > > > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: Susan Taylor [mailto:SGTaylor1@att.net] > > >Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:00 PM > > >To: MAPLYMOU-L@rootsweb.com > > >Subject: Re: [PLY/MA] Rehoboth, Plymouth Colony Richard Martin > > > > > >Bill, > > > > > >At 09:39 AM 1/8/03 -0600, you wrote: > > >Does anyone on the list have the children of the early Richard Martin of > > >Rehoboth, Plymouth Colony? > > > > > >This Richard Martin was the younger brother of Robert Martin the first > > >Martin settler of Rehoboth. Richard came to the colony sometime between > > >1668 and 1689 and was married to Judith Upham. > > > > > >Going to start at the end of your message. Richard was married to > > >Elizabeth SALTER per: > > > > > >1. Melinde Lutz Sanborn, Supplement to Torrey's New England Marriages > > >Prior to 1700 (Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., t1991), > > >p. 46. [Her source: NEHGR 127:28]. "MARTYN, Richard & Elizabeth SALTER; > > >m 9 June 1630 Ottery St Mary, co Devon." > > > > > >2. Harriet W. Hodge, Mayflower Families Through Five Generations, > > >Descendants of the Pilgrims Who landed at Plymouth, Mass. December 1620: > > >Edward Winslow - John Billington, Vol. Five (Billington section) > > >(Plymouth, MA: General Society of Mayflower Descendants, 1991), p. 46. > > >[Her source: Ottery Saint Mary Church, 1601-1837, p. 283]. > > >"JOHN MARTIN, bp. Ottery St. Mary, Devonshire, England 20 Jan. 1652/3, > > >d. Rehoboth 28 Aug. 1720; son of Richard and Elizabeth (Salter) > > >Martin.[4] > > > > > >3. Clarence Almon Torrey, New England Marriages Prior to 1700 > > >(Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1985), p. 492. > > >"MARTIN, Richard (-1694?, 1695?) (bro of Abraham) & Elizabeth SALTER (is > > >this reliable?); 9 Jun 1631, b 1633; Rehoboth." > > > > > >Robert was married to Joanna UPHAM per: > > > > > >1. Melinde Lutz Sanborn, Supplement to Torrey's New England Marriages > > >Prior to 1700 (Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1991), > > >p. 46. [Her source: NEHGR 127:28]. "MARTIN, Robert & Joanna UPHAM; m 16 > > >Nov 1618 Ottery St Mary, co Devon." > > > > > >3. Clarence Almon Torrey, New England Marriages Prior to 1700 > > >(Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1985), p. 493. > > >"MARTIN, Robert .... & Joanna UPHAM (1591-1669?) (sis of John); prob bef > > >1620...." > > > > > >As to the children of Richard and Elizabeth (SALTER) MARTIN, at this > > >time I have only 2 issues listed for them. There may be more but I > > >haven't stumbled on them yet. I have: > > > > > >1. Annis/Anne/Agnes/ b. c1649 prob in Eng.- d. 1730 Barrington, Bristol > > >Co. MA - now in RI. She married 1670 in Swansea Joseph/2 CHAFFEE. They > > >are my ancestors. > > > > > >2. John bp. 1653 Ottery St. Mary's Church, Devonshire, England - died > > >1720 Rehoboth, MA. His first marriage 1681 in Rehoboth was to Mercy/3 > > >BILLINGTON and second marriage 1719 Rehoboth to Abigail READ. > > > > > >These are the only issue I have for them at this time. > > > > > >Richard was not only brother of Robert but of Abraham too. The CHAFFEE > > >genealogy says on p. 21, in "book two of the Rehoboth Land Records... > > >Richard Martin acknowledged having given to his son-in-law, Joseph > > >Chaffee, 'ffourteen pounds estate in commonage,' in Rehoboth, which was > > >given him by the will of his brother, Robert Martin." > > > > > >and Torrey, p. 492, says Richard was brother of Abraham. > > > > > >Probably the only sure source of issue for Richard and Elizabeth > > >(SALTER) MARTIN are the church registries of Ottery St. Mary's Church, > > >Devonshire, England. Any children for them would have had to be born > > >before they immigrated because they were probably in their 50 and 60s. > > >The LDS/FHC probably have the church registries on microfilm. You really > > >have to be careful in any data/research done on any early New England > > >Richard MARTIN for there were several Richard MARTIN > > >progenitor/immigrants. Many many early sources have really mixed up on > > >their Richard info by crediting info to the wrong Richards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== MAPLYMOU Mailing List ==== > > > ====MAPLYMOU-L/D Mail List===== > > > +-+ Owners = List Members +-+ > > > =Administrator Frederick M. Dittmar= > > > ====== fred@dittmar.net ====== > > > > > >============================== > > >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > > >go to: > > >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > ==== MAPLYMOU Mailing List ==== > > ====MAPLYMOU-L/D Mail List===== > > +-+ Owners = List Members +-+ > > =Administrator Frederick M. Dittmar= > > ====== fred@dittmar.net ====== > > > > ============================== > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > ==== MAPLYMOU Mailing List ==== > ====MAPLYMOU-L/D Mail List===== > +-+ Owners = List Members +-+ > =Administrator Frederick M. Dittmar= > ====== fred@dittmar.net ====== > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

I have a Rehoboth Martin/Upham question. >From Vol. I, History of Weymouth Massachusetts in four volumes [1923] published by the WEYMOUTH HISTORICAL SOCIETY, Wright and Potter Printing Company, Boston. PAGE 72, Chapter XV THE COMING OF THE HULL COMPANY there is a listing of the individuals who arrived in Weymouth, MA in 1633 (or 1635) in a party with the Reverend Joseph Hull. Below is the section of the list in which the Uphams and Martins of Rehoboth are found. In general the list is arraigned by family groups. I note that mixed in the listing of Martins and Uphams there is a Humfrey Shepheard age 22 and a William Grane age 12. Does anyone know if/how Sheheard and Grane were related to either these Martins or Uphams? The Martin/Upham part of the list: 88 Robert Martyn of Bakombe, husbandman, aged 44. 89 Humfrey Shepheard, husbandman, 22 years. 90 John Upham, husbandman, aged 35 years. 91 Joane Martyn, aged 44 years. 92 Elizabeth Upham, aged 32 years. 93 John Upham, Junior, aged 7 years. 94 William Grane, aged 12. 95 Sarah Upham, aged 26. 96 Nathaniel Upham, aged 5 years. 97 Elizabeth Upham, aged 3 years. In Ottery Saint Mary parish registers I find no Granes either baptised or married in the necessary time period. Likewise there is no Humfrey Shepherd who could be a 22 year old in the 1633 to 1635 period. Humphry is a name used by Ottery Shepheards and there was a Humphery Shepheard with wife Marie who was having children between 1623 and 1635 but he could not be a 22 year old in 1633/1635. I realise the question is rather obscure but any help will be appreciated. Bill Churchill