Melissa, At 02:31 PM 1/12/03 -0500, mwyant@attglobal.net wrote: >The baptism of Annis/Agnes Martin, dau of Richard & Elizabeth (Salter) >Martin is given >in NEHGR 142:351. Source is cited as Mayflower Quarterly 49[1983]:175. Thank you! Just spun the ole NEHGR cd and found this CHAFFEE info in the article on "Seventeenth Century Hull, Massachusetts and her People". --- Susan SGTAYLOR1@att.net My Genealogy Website - sgt http://home.att.net/~SGTAYLOR1/ ----------------------------------------------- USGW Mansfield, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcmansf/ USGW New London, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcnewlo/ USGW Norwich, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcnorwi/ USGW Windham, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcwindh/ USGW Coordinator Plymouth Co., MA - http://www.rootsweb.com/~maplymou/ USGW Plymouth, MA - http://www.rootsweb.com/~macplymo/ ********************************************************* >mwyant@attglobal.net wrote: > > > Hi Folks: > > I believe that I have Richard Martin, as well, but haven't yet gone any > further than > > the "Martin-Pridmore Family Record", a privately printed genealogy > which didn't > > always give source cites. > > > > Just want to confirm that Richard's son John is the same man that > married Johanna > > Esten ca. 1671 at Swansea MA, died Swansea 1712/13 before I go further > into primary > > sources. > > > > Thanks, > > Melissa > > > > Susan Taylor wrote: > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > At 11:17 PM 1/9/03 -0600, Bill Churchill wrote: > > > > > > >I research English Churchill families so I am familiar with the Ottery > > > >Saint Mary registers. I discovered Robert while researching Devon > > > >Rockbeare Churchills. Robert was a follower of the Rev. Joseph Hull an > > > >Anglican non-conformist of the type that later became > > > >Congregationalists. I've been trying to put together Robert's family > > > >group from Martin researchers on the Martin List but have received > > > >conflicting information. I agree when you say many early Martin sources > > > >are mixed up. > > > > > > > >After receiving your message I checked the LDS (IGI M002761) batch file > > > >(this is the real parish register listing without all the "submitter" > > > >trash) and found a baptism record for your John son of Richard bp 1653. > > > >It says he was baptised 20 JAN 1653 and lists his parents as Richard > > > >"Martyn" with mother "Eliza." Thank you, I had no way of knowing this > > > >was the Rehoboth Richard. > > > > > > > >I did not find a baptism for the daughter c.1649 but did find several > > > >Annis, Anne & Agnes -- those were common female names among OSM Martins. > > > >It turns out that the IGI is not complete for OSM so this may be why > > > >there is no listing for your Ann/Agnes. > > > > > > > >Martin List researchers do have conflicting information. Some have > > > >Richard with wife Elizabeth Salter and 2nd married to Judith Upham the > > > >younger sister of Robert's wife Johanna. > > > > > > Thank you for sharing the info you got from the Ottery... church > > > registries. Judith as Richard's 2nd marriage is an interesting thought. > > > However, as Torrey, Sanborn and Richard's will - as quoted by Harlow > in his > > > message to us - doesn't mention a wife or 2nd wife named Judith, at this > > > point I'm only considering that piece of data as speculation at best but > > > still interesting. > > > > > > >The LDS IGI (the real IGI) for OSM has quite a number of Martins but no > > > >one I recognize as Robert and no Johanna Upham -- or any Uphams for that > > > >matter. I checked the Batcombe, Somerset registers and did not find > > > >Robert -- and no other Martins save a single Christopher Martin. > > > >However, church registration only started late in the 16th century so > > > >Robert's age is pushing a bit the time for registries. > > > > > > As to the marriage of Robert and Joanne UPHAM, one of my sources was > > > Sanborn whose supplements to Torrey you know doubt know about but for > > > lurkers who don't here's the cite: > > > > > > Melinde Lutz Sanborn, > > > Supplement_to_Torrey's_New_England_Marriages_Prior_to_1700 > (Baltimore, MD: > > > Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1991), p. 46. [Her source: NEHGR > 127:28]. > > > > > > Anyways, I checked NEHGR 127:28 to see what it actually said. The article > > > starts on p. 27 and is: > > > > > > Harris, Col. Edward M. "Ottery Saint Mary Origin of Thomas Harris" in > > > The_New_England_Historical_&_Genealogical_ Register, Vol. 127 (Jan 1973) > > > (CD; Boston: NEHGR & Broderbund Software, Inc., 1996). > > > > > > p. 28 says: > > > > > > "....As made evident by the late Mary Lovering Holman in her series of > > > 'Notes on Some Immigrants from Ottery St Mary, Devon, England' (The_ > > > American_ Genealogist, 16:88-95, 132-5, 205-6), emigration to New England > > > was particularly popular in that parish, and a fertile field for those > > > seeking the English origins of early New England families exists > there. For > > > instance, there appears in The_Register (23:33) a note to the effect that > > > Deacon John Upham of Malden, Mass., based on the evidence of then > existing > > > records, was 'brother-in-law' of Joanna, wife of Robert Martin of > Rehoboth, > > > Mass., and of Richard Webb of Weymouth, Mass. In the Ottery register, > > > however, appears recorded the marriage of one Robert Martin and Johane > > > Upham on 16 Nov. 1618. One can therefore conclude that John Upham and > > > Joanna Martin were brother and sister. One Richard Martyn and Elizabeth > > > Salter were married at Ottery on 9 June 1630, quite likely he being that > > > much younger brother of Robert who died "aged" at Rehoboth, leaving a > will > > > proved 7 May 1695 (Charles H. Pope, The Pioneers of Massachusetts, > 1900, p. > > > 303)." > > > > > > >Questions: > > > > > > > >Do you know if there is will/probate for Richard? > > > > > > I only knew of the parts about his daughter Annis and son John but with > > > Harlow's message I found the will in NEHGR 63:79 : > > > > > > Greenlaw, Lucy Hall. "Abstracts from the First Book Bristol Probate > > > Records" in The_New_England_Historical_&_Genealogical Register, Vol. 63 > > > (Jan 1909) (CD; Boston: NEHGR & Broderbund Software, Inc., 1996). > > > > > > It was written/dated 2 June 1686 and probated 9 May 1695. Boy, it is > hard > > > to read - faded. His son John was sole executor and his "good friends > > > Deacon Samuel Newman and Wm. Carpenter overseers. It mentions: > > > > > > Sons: John in new England and sons Richard and Francis still in old > England > > > Daughter: Annis md. to CHAFFEE and Grace md. to ORMSBY > > > Grandsons: John (eldest son of Richard), 2 sons (unnamed)of Francis, and > > > John ORMSBY (eldest son of Grace) > > > > > > It appears the old England children could not claim their inheritance > > > unless they came on over. An inventory of his estate was "sworn to" on 7 > > > May 1695. > > > > > > I have checked my db again and found I have Grace (MARTIN) ORMSBY in > it! I > > > didn't have her parents, etc... Now with Harlow's message (thank you > again > > > and again Harlow) and subsequence research I can connect her to > Richard. My > > > info on Grace comes more or less from my SABIN line. A sibling of my > SABIN > > > md. a dau. of John and Grace (MARTIN) ORMSBY - Israel/2 SABIN md. > 1696 Mary > > > ORMSBY. I have 5 issue for John and Grace (MARTIN) ORMSBY. However, this > > > info is not set in concrete for some of the names comes from Savage and I > > > haven't been able to verify them: > > > > > > Grace - from MF5GBillington and SABIN genealogy (source: Arnold's VR > Rehoboth) > > > Elizabeth - from Savage > > > Mary - from MF5GBillington, SABIN (source: Arnold's VR Rehoboth) and > Savage > > > Jonathan - from Savage > > > Martha - from Savage > > > > > > Note: only mentions 1 son while the will of Richard says, "John Omsby- my > > > daughter Grace's eldest son." > > > > > > >Do you have background information on Richard Martin? From what I have > > > >learned he certainly wasn't in any hurry to assume his brother's > > > >Rehoboth freehold. Devon records suggest he had something to do with > > > >maritime shipping or commerce -- ship's officer, owner's agent, owner or > > > >part owner. One record suggests he captained the bark Blessing. > > > > > > > >Which class of gentry was Richard? > > > > > > Sorry I know nothing about his background. As to involvement in maritime > > > stuff and such again I haven't a bit of data to prove one way or another. > > > His inventory - only a bible mentioned - and will suggests nothing > > > maritime. I do have a couple of land transactions for him involving > his son > > > John and son-in-law Joseph CHAFFEE. Here's one involving the land he > > > inherited from Robert from Book 2 of Rehoboth Land Records - according to > > > the CHAFFEE genealogy - says > > > > > > "book two of the Rehoboth Land Records...Richard Martin acknowledged > > > having given to his son-in-law, Joseph Chaffee, 'ffourteen pounds > estate in > > > commonage,' in Rehoboth, which was given him by the will of his > brother, > > > Robert Martin." > > > > > > Sorry, I haven't more detail on Richard. You have given me much more > than I > > > have added to this thread. Thank you. > > > > > > --- Susan > > > SGTAYLOR1@att.net > > > My Genealogy Website - sgt > > > http://home.att.net/~SGTAYLOR1/ > > > ----------------------------------------------- > > > USGW Mansfield, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcmansf/ > > > USGW New London, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcnewlo/ > > > USGW Norwich, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcnorwi/ > > > USGW Windham, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcwindh/ > > > USGW Coordinator Plymouth Co., MA - http://www.rootsweb.com/~maplymou/ > > > USGW Plymouth, MA - http://www.rootsweb.com/~macplymo/ > > > ********************************************************* > > > > > > >Regards, > > > >Bill Churchill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > >From: Susan Taylor [mailto:SGTaylor1@att.net] > > > >Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:00 PM > > > >To: MAPLYMOU-L@rootsweb.com > > > >Subject: Re: [PLY/MA] Rehoboth, Plymouth Colony Richard Martin > > > > > > > >Bill, > > > > > > > >At 09:39 AM 1/8/03 -0600, you wrote: > > > >Does anyone on the list have the children of the early Richard Martin of > > > >Rehoboth, Plymouth Colony? > > > > > > > >This Richard Martin was the younger brother of Robert Martin the first > > > >Martin settler of Rehoboth. Richard came to the colony sometime between > > > >1668 and 1689 and was married to Judith Upham. > > > > > > > >Going to start at the end of your message. Richard was married to > > > >Elizabeth SALTER per: > > > > > > > >1. Melinde Lutz Sanborn, Supplement to Torrey's New England Marriages > > > >Prior to 1700 (Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., t1991), > > > >p. 46. [Her source: NEHGR 127:28]. "MARTYN, Richard & Elizabeth SALTER; > > > >m 9 June 1630 Ottery St Mary, co Devon." > > > > > > > >2. Harriet W. Hodge, Mayflower Families Through Five Generations, > > > >Descendants of the Pilgrims Who landed at Plymouth, Mass. December 1620: > > > >Edward Winslow - John Billington, Vol. Five (Billington section) > > > >(Plymouth, MA: General Society of Mayflower Descendants, 1991), p. 46. > > > >[Her source: Ottery Saint Mary Church, 1601-1837, p. 283]. > > > >"JOHN MARTIN, bp. Ottery St. Mary, Devonshire, England 20 Jan. 1652/3, > > > >d. Rehoboth 28 Aug. 1720; son of Richard and Elizabeth (Salter) > > > >Martin.[4] > > > > > > > >3. Clarence Almon Torrey, New England Marriages Prior to 1700 > > > >(Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1985), p. 492. > > > >"MARTIN, Richard (-1694?, 1695?) (bro of Abraham) & Elizabeth SALTER (is > > > >this reliable?); 9 Jun 1631, b 1633; Rehoboth." > > > > > > > >Robert was married to Joanna UPHAM per: > > > > > > > >1. Melinde Lutz Sanborn, Supplement to Torrey's New England Marriages > > > >Prior to 1700 (Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1991), > > > >p. 46. [Her source: NEHGR 127:28]. "MARTIN, Robert & Joanna UPHAM; m 16 > > > >Nov 1618 Ottery St Mary, co Devon." > > > > > > > >3. Clarence Almon Torrey, New England Marriages Prior to 1700 > > > >(Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1985), p. 493. > > > >"MARTIN, Robert .... & Joanna UPHAM (1591-1669?) (sis of John); prob bef > > > >1620...." > > > > > > > >As to the children of Richard and Elizabeth (SALTER) MARTIN, at this > > > >time I have only 2 issues listed for them. There may be more but I > > > >haven't stumbled on them yet. I have: > > > > > > > >1. Annis/Anne/Agnes/ b. c1649 prob in Eng.- d. 1730 Barrington, Bristol > > > >Co. MA - now in RI. She married 1670 in Swansea Joseph/2 CHAFFEE. They > > > >are my ancestors. > > > > > > > >2. John bp. 1653 Ottery St. Mary's Church, Devonshire, England - died > > > >1720 Rehoboth, MA. His first marriage 1681 in Rehoboth was to Mercy/3 > > > >BILLINGTON and second marriage 1719 Rehoboth to Abigail READ. > > > > > > > >These are the only issue I have for them at this time. > > > > > > > >Richard was not only brother of Robert but of Abraham too. The CHAFFEE > > > >genealogy says on p. 21, in "book two of the Rehoboth Land Records... > > > >Richard Martin acknowledged having given to his son-in-law, Joseph > > > >Chaffee, 'ffourteen pounds estate in commonage,' in Rehoboth, which was > > > >given him by the will of his brother, Robert Martin." > > > > > > > >and Torrey, p. 492, says Richard was brother of Abraham. > > > > > > > >Probably the only sure source of issue for Richard and Elizabeth > > > >(SALTER) MARTIN are the church registries of Ottery St. Mary's Church, > > > >Devonshire, England. Any children for them would have had to be born > > > >before they immigrated because they were probably in their 50 and 60s. > > > >The LDS/FHC probably have the church registries on microfilm. You really > > > >have to be careful in any data/research done on any early New England > > > >Richard MARTIN for there were several Richard MARTIN > > > >progenitor/immigrants. Many many early sources have really mixed up on > > > >their Richard info by crediting info to the wrong Richards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== MAPLYMOU Mailing List ==== > > > > ====MAPLYMOU-L/D Mail List===== > > > > +-+ Owners = List Members +-+ > > > > =Administrator Frederick M. Dittmar= > > > > ====== fred@dittmar.net ====== > > > > > > > >============================== > > > >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy > records, > > > >go to: > > > >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > ==== MAPLYMOU Mailing List ==== > > > ====MAPLYMOU-L/D Mail List===== > > > +-+ Owners = List Members +-+ > > > =Administrator Frederick M. Dittmar= > > > ====== fred@dittmar.net ====== > > > > > > ============================== > > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy > records, go to: > > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > ==== MAPLYMOU Mailing List ==== > > ====MAPLYMOU-L/D Mail List===== > > +-+ Owners = List Members +-+ > > =Administrator Frederick M. Dittmar= > > ====== fred@dittmar.net ====== > > > > ============================== > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy > records, go to: > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > >==== MAPLYMOU Mailing List ==== > ====MAPLYMOU-L/D Mail List===== > +-+ Owners = List Members +-+ > =Administrator Frederick M. Dittmar= > ====== fred@dittmar.net ====== > >============================== >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, >go to: >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237