I'm trying to distinguish several Joseph PERRYs who lived in the late 1600s and the 1700s in Plymouth Co. One of the few resources which I have not yet checked is land records. The Family History Library catalog has five listings, three of which I've copied below. I understand more or less what each entry says--that is, I understand the difference between grantor and grantee, the index and the deeds, etc. My confusion lies in the fact that these records seem to overlap. Is that the case? For instance, would I find a deed for land sold by a Joseph Perry in 1690 listed in each or the collections below? This is one of my first forays into Plymouth land deeds, so I'd be very grateful for help or advice from experienced users of these records. Kendall Mellem keks@kc.rr.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Plymouth Colony records, deeds, 1620-1699 Massachusetts. Secretary of State (Main Author) Microreproduction of ms. Includes index. Manuscript (On Film) Index, vols. 1-2, 1627-1699 Deeds, vol. 1, 1620-1651. FHL US/CAN Film 567788 Deeds, vols. 2-4, 1651-1681. FHL US/CAN Film 567789 Deeds, vols. 5-6, 1686-1699. FHL US/CAN Film 567790 Deed records, 1664-1900 Plymouth County (Massachusetts). Register of Deeds (Main Author) Microreproduction of original ms. Includes index. Manuscript (On Film) Index Grantee A-H 1685-1801 FHL US/CAN Film 567747 Index Grantee I-Y 1685-1801 FHL US/CAN Film 567748 Index Grantor O-Y 1685-1801 FHL US/CAN Film 567768 [Additional grantee and grantor indexes are followed by the deeds and numerous film numbers.] Deeds, 1664-1699 Plymouth County (Massachusetts). Register of Deeds (Main Author) Microfilm of records in Pilgrim Hall, Plymouth, Massachusetts. Includes index. Manuscript (On Film) Deeds FHL US/CAN Film 912074 Items 4-5

In a message dated 6/2/2003 6:49:39 PM Mountain Daylight Time, churchil@koyote.com writes: > You are precisely correct as to the reasoning for banning the marriage > to a spouse's siblings. However, it is not correct that the marriage of > a widow to her husband's brother was legal. Both cases were incestuous. > > This situation did not change in England and her Colonies until the > "Deceased Wife’s Sister’s Marriage Act of 1907" was enacted. But, that > act only legalized the husband marrying a deceased wife's sister. It > remained illegal for a widow to marry her deceased husband's brother > until 1921 when the "Deceased Brother’s Widow’s Marriage Act of 1921" > was enacted. > > Such a marriage was quite risky. It may not have made too much > difference to shop holders, people of the trades and laborers since many > of these classes held property through Copyhold but it could make a big > difference to any Freeholder (husbandmen, yeoman and up). Such a > marriage was non existent. The children were bastardized and, thus, > made ineligible to inherit tenure. This means that a father's holdings > in land could not be passed to his children. Likewise, his widow (since > he legally had no widow) could not, after his death, receive and hold > his land under her widow's dowry right. The children's and the wife's > rights to hold would have terminated upon his death regardless of his > will. The husband and father's tenure would either cease or the land > would pass to eligible allied relatives. While this doesn't include the 17th Century topic (very few of my 17th Century ancestors had second marriages), I have dozens of lines and collateral lines in the mid-late 1700s, and 1800s all along the eastern and mid-Atlantic states where the widow or widower marries a sibling of the deceased. (It averages that a widower would marry a younger sister while the widow would marry an older brother.) One man married three sisters. (The first two died in childbirth with their second or third child.) Not only did they marry into the same family again, the fathers left wills giving land and personal property items to all the children. There wasn't anything in the court houses saying a second marriage was illegal (matter of fact, they were performed by the resident reverend or J.P.) or the children of the second marriage could not inherit. Researching: Appley, Asbury, Ayers, Barnum, Bauder/Bader, Bowling, Briggs, Burton, Carr, Clark, Dyer, Ecker, Finch, Flannery, Fox, Grim, Goodale, Hall, Hardendorf, Harman, Harper, Hawk, Hayes, Henkle/Hinkle, Keith, Marcy, Miller, Pier, Sawyer, Summerfield, Schenk, Shepard, Slocum, Strong, Teter, Tinkham, Thompson/Thomson, Tripp, Vansant, Walker, Whitlam, Wilks/Wilkes, Wolford, Wood, Woolever. http://www.treelines.com http://www.lineage.net Regards, Diane Wolford ====Useful sites==== http://rwguide.rootsweb.com/ (Hints for starting) http://communities.msn.com/AGenealogyExperience (A Genealogy Experience)

Harlow, You are precisely correct as to the reasoning for banning the marriage to a spouse's siblings. However, it is not correct that the marriage of a widow to her husband's brother was legal. Both cases were incestuous. This situation did not change in England and her Colonies until the "Deceased Wife’s Sister’s Marriage Act of 1907" was enacted. But, that act only legalized the husband marrying a deceased wife's sister. It remained illegal for a widow to marry her deceased husband's brother until 1921 when the "Deceased Brother’s Widow’s Marriage Act of 1921" was enacted. Such a marriage was quite risky. It may not have made too much difference to shop holders, people of the trades and laborers since many of these classes held property through Copyhold but it could make a big difference to any Freeholder (husbandmen, yeoman and up). Such a marriage was non existent. The children were bastardized and, thus, made ineligible to inherit tenure. This means that a father's holdings in land could not be passed to his children. Likewise, his widow (since he legally had no widow) could not, after his death, receive and hold his land under her widow's dowry right. The children's and the wife's rights to hold would have terminated upon his death regardless of his will. The husband and father's tenure would either cease or the land would pass to eligible allied relatives. By way of understanding this, prior to the land reforms of the 20th century, all land in England and her colonies was owned by the Crown. It was given out to landholders under tenure agreement. Today we “own” land under a perpetual “hold” as it were. But in the 17th century land tenure had a term that could vary but was generally for life and renewable. (This was only true for freehold. Copyhold had no right of continuance.) Normally under tenure, freehold land passed from father to son or sons, and failing a surviving or suitable son, to daughters. While a bastard had certain rights he/she could not inherit a freehold. That is to say they were ranked below all other legitimate relatives. Thus, it was quite dangerous to marry outside Church law. Obviously in areas outside Church control such a marriage could exist. It was legal in other countries and religions. Also, English Civil authorities (judges and courts) of the time did not have the power to terminate a marriage. That could only be done by a special act of Parliament. But in areas under church control such a marriage did not exist. What I have learned from my query is that there were apparently communities, outside Anglican Church control in which such marriages occurred. Bill -----Original Message----- From: Harlow Chandler [mailto:chandler@firstva.com] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 7:01 AM To: MAPLYMOU-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PLY/MA] Question on 17th century marriage in the Colony Bill Churchill wrote: >Does anyone on the list have a case where a mid 17th century man's >brother married his wife's sister or his sister married his wife's >brother? > > > I have been searching fruitlessly in my limited time this morning for a source to back me up on what I think I remember. I believe that traditionally in England and the English colonies it was reasoned from Genesis ("Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be one flesh.") that a man's wife became his blood relative, and hence all his wife's family became his blood relatives as well. Therefore a marriage between a widower and his wife's sister was incestuous, whereas the marriage of a widow to her husband's brother was not. ______________________________

David LEACH and wife Hannah were the parents of seven children (Mercy, Hannah, Ephraim, Experience, David, Mehetabel, Abigail) born between 1693 and 1714 in Bridgewater. (Bridgewater VRs) Who were David Leach's parents? When did he die? According to _History of the Early Settlement of Bridgewater_ by Nahum Mitchell, he was the son of Giles LEACH of Weymouth. Several other secondary sources give Giles as a son of the immigrant Lawrence LEACH of Salem; however, Robert Charles Anderson's The Great Migration Begins, vol. II, gives Lawrence Leach a daughter, Rachel, and and three sons, Robert, John and Richard. No Giles. I've searched the NEHGS web site databases and found nothing that links David Leach to parents. Is anyone else reasearching this line? (I'm especially interested in David's daughter Mercy, b. 1693.) Kendall Mellem keks@kc.rr.com

Abby, Thank you so much for the reply. Question: Are you certain that these marriages have primary records -- that is that the marriages really occurred -- as opposed to someone speculating that they occurred? The reason I am asking is that such marriages were illegal in the period. The Plymouth Colony, however, had no Anglican church early on at least and the leadership tended to be non-conformist. I'm trying to determine if perhaps the Plymouth leadership ignored Church of England affinity law. Regards, Bill Churchill USA -----Original Message----- From: ALums48454@aol.com [mailto:ALums48454@aol.com] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 4:23 AM To: churchil@koyote.com; MAPLYMOU-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PLY/MA] Question on 17th century marriage in the Colony In a message dated 6/1/03 11:02:21 PM, churchil@koyote.com writes: << Does anyone on the list have a case where a mid 17th century man's brother married his wife's sister or his sister married his wife's brother? >> There seem to be many cases of sisters marrying brothers. For example, three sons of Nicholas Noyes married three daughters of John Knight. Abby

Bill Churchill wrote: >Does anyone on the list have a case where a mid 17th century man's >brother married his wife's sister or his sister married his wife's >brother? > > > I have been searching fruitlessly in my limited time this morning for a source to back me up on what I think I remember. I believe that traditionally in England and the English colonies it was reasoned from Genesis ("Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be one flesh.") that a man's wife became his blood relative, and hence all his wife's family became his blood relatives as well. Therefore a marriage between a widower and his wife's sister was incestuous, whereas the marriage of a widow to her husband's brother was not.

My ancestor, Rev. Peter Hobart married two Ibrook sisters in the 1600s. My g-grandmother married two brothers in the 1900s. The first marriage in both cases the wife died. I dated three sisters at different times. I guess I might be oversimplifying, but if you like what you had, go back for seconds. It happened Charles -----Original Message----- From: ALums48454@aol.com <ALums48454@aol.com> To: MAPLYMOU-L@rootsweb.com <MAPLYMOU-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Monday, June 02, 2003 2:29 AM Subject: Re: [PLY/MA] Question on 17th century marriage in the Colony > >In a message dated 6/1/03 11:02:21 PM, churchil@koyote.com writes: > ><< Does anyone on the list have a case where a mid 17th century man's >brother married his wife's sister or his sister married his wife's >brother? >> > >There seem to be many cases of sisters marrying brothers. For example, three >sons of Nicholas Noyes married three daughters of John Knight. >Abby > > >==== MAPLYMOU Mailing List ==== > ====MAPLYMOU-L/D Mail List===== > +-+ Owners = List Members +-+ > =Administrator Frederick M. Dittmar= > ====== fred@dittmar.net ====== > >============================== >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

In a message dated 6/1/03 11:02:21 PM, churchil@koyote.com writes: << Does anyone on the list have a case where a mid 17th century man's brother married his wife's sister or his sister married his wife's brother? >> There seem to be many cases of sisters marrying brothers. For example, three sons of Nicholas Noyes married three daughters of John Knight. Abby

Does anyone on the list have a case where a mid 17th century man's brother married his wife's sister or his sister married his wife's brother? If so I would really like to hear about it. Regards, Bill Churchill USA

I have added a new page to the USGenWeb project for Plymouth County, MA: http://www.rootsweb.com/~maplymou/plyrecords.html It contains links to transcriptions, scans, graphics, etc... of Plymouth County towns records. The records may range from vital, cemetery, and census to church and maps. Many thanks to all the volunteers - USGenWeb Plymouth County towns' hosts, Jane Devlin and her website DUNHAM-WILCOX-TROTT-KIRK, Ray Brown and his website New England Genealogy, USIGS Books Online, and all the transcribers, scanners, etc. - for their hard work getting these wonderful Plymouth County records online! Please, make a point of thanking them and do search their websites for other genealogy gems. --- Susan SGTAYLOR1@att.net My Genealogy Website - sgt http://home.att.net/~SGTAYLOR1/ ----------------------------------------------- USGW Mansfield, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcmansf/ USGW New London, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcnewlo/ USGW Norwich, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcnorwi/ USGW Windham, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcwindh/ USGW Coordinator Plymouth Co., MA - http://www.rootsweb.com/~maplymou/ USGW Plymouth, MA - http://www.rootsweb.com/~macplymo/ *********************************************************

Subject: Re: [PLY/MA] My Oldham....Sprout....Young.... Do you have more information on where the "First Settlers Around Boston" is from ? I have many early ancestors from the Bay Colony as well as the Plymouth Colony. Cynthia Sorry, I don't remember. I think it was through an inter library loan. I also have a lot of ancestors from the same area. From your list of ancestors we have a lot of them in common. Bonnie

Greetings, I hope someone might be able to help me. I am researching the earliest ordained women in American Congregationalism. One of them was MRS. ELLA F. LEONARD who was ordained in 1893/1894 in CO and installed as a minister of the Congregational church in Rico, Colorado on April 1, 1894. Of course, Colorado is a long way from MA. But, here's what I have discovered. PLYMOUTH COUNTY In 1897 she was said to be living in E. Bridgewater, MA. In 1898 she was said to be living in Whitman, MA. In the 1900 Census she is living on School Street in Whitman, MA with her daughter ELLA M. LEONARD. This census shows: Rev. Leonard was born in MA on Feb 1844. She was a widow, age 56. Her daughter Ella M. is age 22, single, and was born on July 1877 in NJ. They are renting. Rev. Leonard had two children, only 1 surviving at the time of this census. In 1902 she was said to be living in Bridgewater, MA. FRANKLIN COUNTY In the 1910 Census she is living Northfield Township. Rev. Leonard is 65 and a widow, born in MA. Her daughter Ella M. appears as the head of their household, at age 32 and single, born in NJ. They are living on a farm which is mortgaged. Both are listed as having "own income." They have a boarder: GRANVILLE H. TATEM, 21 years old, single, and born in NJ. To date, I do not know the name of Ella F. Leonard's husband, their marriage date, her maiden name, or her death date and place. I appreciate any help. Thank you very much, Rev. Dr. Doug Showalter

At 11:59 AM 5/29/2003 -0500, keks wrote: >Torrey records the marriage of John Bryant and Mary West July 11, 1700 in >Plymouth. Are they the parents of the John Bryant who married Elizabeth >Davis June 07, 1733 in Greenland, NH (Maine Families in 1790)? Kendall - No. John Bryant and Mary West did have a son John, but he d. 25-Oct-1724 aged 4 yrs. 9 mos. (Plympton VRs 453). >Is the John Bryant who m. Mary West the son of John Bryant and Sarah Bonham? Yes. See the superb treatment of this family by D. Alden Smith, "The Descendants of Stephen Bryant of Plymouth, and of His Son-In-Law Lt. John Bryant of Plympton" (NEHGR, 153 [1999]:413-434; 154 [2000]:41-60, 227-243, 370-374, 477-504; 155 [2001]:189-211). Dale H. Cook Member, NEHGS USGenWeb Plymouth County MA Towns Host: http://www.rootsweb.com/~macbrock/sites.html

Kendall, At 11:59 AM 5/29/03 -0500, keks wrote: >Torrey records the marriage of John Bryant and Mary West July 11, 1700 in >Plymouth. Are they the parents of the John Bryant who married Elizabeth >Davis June 07, 1733 in Greenland, NH (Maine Families in 1790)? > >Is the John Bryant who m. Mary West the son of John Bryant and Sarah Bonham? These BRYANTS (John and Mary (WEST) and John and Sarah) are listed in Davis' Ancient Landmarks of Plymouth which has been transcribed and up on-line as part of the USGenWeb project for the town of Plymouth: http://www.rootsweb.com/~macplymo/plyalpgr_b2.html#bryant Of course Davis' ALP is a dated source and should definitely be proven by VRs and more up-to-date sources before accepted. --- Susan SGTAYLOR1@att.net My Genealogy Website - sgt http://home.att.net/~SGTAYLOR1/ ----------------------------------------------- USGW Mansfield, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcmansf/ USGW New London, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcnewlo/ USGW Norwich, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcnorwi/ USGW Windham, CT - http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctcwindh/ USGW Coordinator Plymouth Co., MA - http://www.rootsweb.com/~maplymou/ USGW Plymouth, MA - http://www.rootsweb.com/~macplymo/ ********************************************************* >Kendall Mellem > > > > >==== MAPLYMOU Mailing List ==== > ====MAPLYMOU-L/D Mail List===== > +-+ Owners = List Members +-+ > =Administrator Frederick M. Dittmar= > ====== fred@dittmar.net ====== > >============================== >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, >go to: >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

Torrey records the marriage of John Bryant and Mary West July 11, 1700 in Plymouth. Are they the parents of the John Bryant who married Elizabeth Davis June 07, 1733 in Greenland, NH (Maine Families in 1790)? Is the John Bryant who m. Mary West the son of John Bryant and Sarah Bonham? Kendall Mellem

Thank you for the posting. I'm quite interested in the non-conformist beliefs of the Plymouth settlers. I read a remark, said to be from Bradford, that Plymouth Colony was within the diocese of the Virginia Colony. Apparently, at one time, the Plymouth settlers considered asking the bishop at Virginia to send a priest to Plymouth in order to perform baptisms. At the time they apparently had no one who was ordained. The idea was rejected for fear that it could lead to the establishment of Church of England control at Plymouth. Question, does your source name any additional Plymouth settlers who were involved with Oldham and Lyford? Regards, Bill Churchill USA -----Original Message----- From: Bonnie Rogers [mailto:bonniej10@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 12:04 PM To: MAPLYMOU-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PLY/MA] My Oldham....Sprout....Young.... ----- Original Message ----- From: The Abbotts <Bunnydust@attbi.com> To: <MAPLYMOU-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 7:01 PM Subject: [PLY/MA] My Oldham....Sprout....Young.... Here's a tidbit I found. "First Settlers Around Boston", page 10: "John Oldham came to Plymouth in 1623. He was implicated with Lyford in an attempt to establish Episcopal rule in place of the government at Plymouth. Bradford writes that Oldham and Lyford drew "as many intoi faction as they could; were they never so vile or profane, they did nourish and back them all in their doings; so they would but cleave to them and speak against ye church hear[here]". Various charges against them were proved by means of intercepted letters. Oldham was banished and went to Nantakset. In 1625 he returned to Plymouth for a brief time according to Bradford. He went to Cape Ann the same year and later went to England. Upon his return, he resided at Watertown. He had grants there and also grants from the Indians of islands in Narragannset Bay. While on a trading trip in latter place in 1636, he was murdered by the indians. Bradford tells us that his death was "one ground for the Pequente warr which followed." Bonnie

----- Original Message ----- From: The Abbotts <Bunnydust@attbi.com> To: <MAPLYMOU-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 7:01 PM Subject: [PLY/MA] My Oldham....Sprout....Young.... Here's a tidbit I found. "First Settlers Around Boston", page 10: "John Oldham came to Plymouth in 1623. He was implicated with Lyford in an attempt to establish Episcopal rule in place of the government at Plymouth. Bradford writes that Oldham and Lyford drew "as many intoi faction as they could; were they never so vile or profane, they did nourish and back them all in their doings; so they would but cleave to them and speak against ye church hear[here]". Various charges against them were proved by means of intercepted letters. Oldham was banished and went to Nantakset. In 1625 he returned to Plymouth for a brief time according to Bradford. He went to Cape Ann the same year and later went to England. Upon his return, he resided at Watertown. He had grants there and also grants from the Indians of islands in Narragannset Bay. While on a trading trip in latter place in 1636,he was murdered by the indians. Bradford tells us that his death was "one ground for the Pequente warr which followed." Bonnie

Couple days ago I posted and asked if anyone had information on the Oldhams.... Here are my sources: A lot of detail but shows our Oldham information as I have it. -- 1. SOURCE: Mayflower Families Through Five generations, Vol.20, part 1; General Society of Mayflower Descendants, Plymouth,Mass., 2000. SAMPSON....SPROUT....OLDHAM ** Elizabeth-2 SAMSON(Henry-1) married Robert SPROUT, about 1661 ** "On 6 June 1712, Robert SPROUT of Middleboro, sold land to his married daughters, MERCY OLDHAM, wife of THOMAS Oldham." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ SOURCE: Clarke University, Worcester,Mass., - OLDHAM: -John Oldham born abut 1623 with wife and sister,Lucretia who married Jonathan Brewster in 1624. John came over as a partner with Richard Vines of London involved with thePatent of Saco, Maine,1629. They traded along the Maine coast with Isaac Allerton[Mayflower). John resided at Watertown,Mass., freeman,1631...member of W.church...killed on Block Is. 1636. - my note: is john is thomas' brother ?? - SOURCE: David Pane-Joyce; Clark University,Worcester,Mass., 2002 http://aleph0.clarku.edu/~djoyce/gen/scituate/rr01/rr01_196.html OLDHAM ----THOMAS -1 and Mary(Wetherell) Oldham ...... ----Thomas Oldham, born 23 Aug 1624 in All Saint's Parish,Derby,Eng. Thomas died at Scituate,Ma. 7 March 1711/2. ---Thomas-1 came on the Elizabeth and Ann,1635 with his brother. He was a member of the Duxbury Company in Aug.1643 (ATBA list) with Capt Myles Standish. -- Thomas-1 was a householder 1650, his house was probably near "Kings Landing". ----20 Nov. 1656, Thomas-1 then 22, married Mary Witherell, dau of Rev.William, and Mary(Fisher) Witherell, in Scituate,Mass. Mary b. 18 March 1635 and died 12 Dec 1710,aged 75. issue: i.Mary Oldham, b. 20 Aug 1658,Scituate ii.THOMAS Oldham, . 30 Oct 1660 in Scituate; Thomas died betw. 21 feb.1733 and 24 Jan 1724,Scituate iii.Sarah Oldham, b. about 1662, Scituate; bapt. in Second Church of Scituate 5 April 1662 iv.Hannah Oldham b. 7 March 1664/5 Scituate; Hannah died 14 Feb.1727,age 61 v.Grace Oldham, b. 13 Feb.1666/7 in scituate vi.Isaac Oldham,b. 9 April 1669 in S. see url for DJoyce sources ============================================================================ ===== SOURCE: Mayflower Families Through Five Generations, Vol 20,part 1, Gen.Soc.of Mayflower Descendants Plymouth,Mass., 2000. -- SPROUT: [see Anna-3,married Thomas Oldham, JR ] .Elizabeth-2 (Samson) and Robert SPROUT married ca 1661 in Scituate issue: all of Scituate: i. MERCY b. July 1664; died betw. 28 Jan.1724/5 and 8 Nov.1726. died unm. iii. Mary b. 1 May 1666; died betw. 28 Jan. 1724/5 and Nov.1726.; unm. iv. Robert b. April 1669; died June 1690 in Phipp's expedition to Canada, unm. v. Anna b. March 1671/2 vi. James b. Feb. 1673/4 vii. Ebenezer b. May 1676 viii. Hannah b. Aug.1680 VRs Scituate 1:327(b) 2:442(d) MD 6:8-11(Robert's will) MD 25: 69-72(est.Eliz.and Mary deeds) Plymouth Co.LR: 10:2:28(Robert Sprout); TAG 61:200-1. Plymouth Colony Rec.3:133 ================================================================ SOURCE: Mayflower Families Vol.1, Sprout (has list of resources if need) OLDHAM issue of Mercy-3 (Sprout) and Thomas OLDHAM, JR all of Scituate: i. Joshua, b. 20 June 1684 in Scituate ii. Mary, b. 1 April 1686 in S. married John____. iii. Mercy, b. 28 July 1689; married Andrew Newcomb iv. Elizabeth b. 4 Oct 1691 v. Abigail b. 24 Nov. 1693 vi. Anna, b. 19 March 1695/6; married Joseph YOUNG, at Second Church of Scituate,13 Oct 1718. (Young of Truro,Mass) v. Desire b. 28 Feb. 1697/8 vi. Thomas b. 30 Jan.1698/9 vii. Caleb b. 27 Jan.1701/2 viii. Grace b. 27 Feb. 1703/4. VRs Scituate 1:276(b), 2:221(m); Plymouth Co.PR 7:121(thomas Oldham). Plymouth Co. LR19:513(Thom.O.) 37:178(Joshua O.); First 100 Years oldham Family, Mrs.R.S.D..Eddy; TAG 61:201-2. ============================= SOURCE: Mayflower Families(Sprout), Gen.Soc.of Mayflower Descendants.....see above OLDHAM- 3d generation: Anna-4 Oldham (Mercy-3 Sprout,Elizabeth-2 Samson, Henry Samson) b. 19 March 1695/6,Scituate; died at Pownalborough,Mass.[now Maine] before 28 Oct 1766. m. (in scituate) 13 Oct 1718 " he of Truro" Joseph YOUNG, b. Eastham 19 Dec. 1682, son of Joseph and Sarah(Davis) Young. Anna was admitted to the Truro Church, 21 Sept.1729, and "dismist" 17 June 1733. ----------- ( enough of this line as it doesnt pertain to issue of Oldham) ======================== Now, Clarke University in Worcester also has as follows: [spelling as shown] ** " 2692 Elizabeth Oldham, born 5 May 1677 in Scituate,Mass. At age 1, Elizabeth was bapt. in the Second Church of Scituate, 18 Aug.1678. Elizabeth died by Oct. 1747." ** " March 7, 1704/5 when Elizabeth was 26, she married ________, son of ______(22 Dec.1653-June 1735), in the Second Church of Scituate. " ** " Samuell Hatch,JR and Elizabeth OLDUM both of Scittuate ware married march ye 7th: 1704/5. Born on 10 Nov.1678 in Scituate. Samuel bapt. in Second Church of Scituate on 4 Aug. 1679. Samuel died in 1766/7 in Scituate. Occupation: yeoman " ** " the will of Samuel Hatch of Scituate, yeoman, written 23 Oct.1766, proved 2 Feb.1767, mentions his wife Mary, grandsons John and Job Michel; grandsons Samuel,Amos,and Ezekiel Jones, daughters Lidia Michel and Ruth Jones; granddaughters Elizabeth Mitchell and Betty Jones." ** " children of Samuel and Mary Hatch. i. (1706>1781) ii. (1709>1771) (listed just like that ??) iii. (1723>1766) see url D.Joyce sources ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ My note: this Elizabeth would be in same generation as Thomas-2 but she isnt listed in the book???? (omission....deliberate or not-??) ============================================================================ ======== source: Directory of Head of New England Families, Frank R.Holmes, New York, 1923 (reprint: 1964 no copyright) OLDHAM: page cixxvi i. John, Indian trader, came to Plymouth,1623, removed to Nantasket and Cape Ann,Mass.; freeman,1631 ii. Thomas, brother of preceding , came to New England after 1635, was at Duxbury,Mass,1643; afterwards at Scituate,Mass. ---------- other sources I used 1.Roser,Susan E... Mayflower Vital Records, Deeds and Wills, 1600-1900s "Mayflower Births and Deaths, Volume I" Copyright 1992 "Mayflower Births and Deaths, Volume II" Copyright 1992 "Mayflower Increasings " Copyright 1995 "Mayflower Marriages" Copyright 1990 2. Eugene Aubrey Stratton.."Plymouth Colony & It's People", copyright,1986 3. Nathaniel B.Shurtleff,M.D..."Records of the Colony of New Plymouth in New England", copyright,1857 reprint with "plymouth Colony Vital Records" by George E.Bowman,1997 4. Gary Boyd Roberts, "Mayflower Source Records"; copyright (index,introduction,and table of contents),1986 (reprint from The New England Genealogical and Historical Register) 5. Charles R.Anderson,"the Great Migration Begins,1620-1633",Vol.II, copyright,1995 [info on John Oldham,not Thomas] Cynthia admin.of Massachusetts Bay Colony mailing list http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/Ma-Bay-Colony ============================================================================ ===============

Cynthia, I have only a bit more as follows below. Off list I'll send the source references. Please send the sources for your information. QUESTION: Is your "Thomas' dau, Anna-3, b. 19 March 1696-6" date actually 19 March 1696/97? ********** FIRST GENERATION 1. Thomas OLDHAM1. Thomas OLDHAM and Mary WITHERELL had the following children: +2 i. Elizabeth OLDHAM (born on 5 May 1677). SECOND GENERATION 2. Elizabeth OLDHAM2 was born on 5 May 1677 in Scituate, MA.3 She died between 25 Aug 1723 and 27 Oct 1747 in Scituate, MA.4 25 Aug 1723 was bapt of son and 27 Oct 1747 Samuel's 2nd marriage. Elizabeth and Samuel had 3 children. She was married to Samuel HATCH (son of Samuel HATCH and Mary DOTY) on 7 Mar 1705 in Scituate, MA.5 Samuel HATCH was born on 10 Nov 1678 in Scituate, MA. He was baptised on 4 Aug 1679 in Scituate, MA.6 He died between 23 Oct 1766 and 2 Feb 1767 in Scituate, MA.7 23 Oct 1766 was the date of his will and 2 Feb 1767 the date of his probate. Regards, Bill Churchill ########### -----Original Message----- From: The Abbotts [mailto:Bunnydust@attbi.com] Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 5:19 PM To: MAPLYMOU-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [PLY/MA] Oldham.....Young....Sprout ----- Original Message ----- From: The Abbotts Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 6:06 PM Subject: [Ma-Bay-Colony] Oldham.....Young....Sprout - Thomas Oldham, of Scituate around 1650; married Mary (Witherwell),dau of Rev.Witherwell/Witherell, 20 Nov.1656 ** - I have a Thomas-2 (b?) OLDHAM who married Mercy SPROUT(dau of Robert), 27 June 1683 . They lived in what was the "Two Mile___", today is Marshfield. ** - Thomas' dau, Anna-3, b. 19 March 1696-6, married Joseph YOUNG 13 Oct 1718,Scituate. Joseph was son of Joseph-2 and (Sarah Davis??) of Eastham,Barnstable County ** - Anna and Joseph moved to Pownalborough,Mass.[now Maine], which is now known as Wiscassett, Joseph died there in 1770 can anyone tell me more of the Oldham family ? Cynthia admin.of Massachusetts Bay Colony mailing list http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/Ma-Bay-Colony

----- Original Message ----- From: The Abbotts Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 6:06 PM Subject: [Ma-Bay-Colony] Oldham.....Young....Sprout - Thomas Oldham, of Scituate around 1650; married Mary (Witherwell),dau of Rev.Witherwell/Witherell, 20 Nov.1656 ** - I have a Thomas-2 (b?) OLDHAM who married Mercy SPROUT(dau of Robert), 27 June 1683 . They lived in what was the "Two Mile___", today is Marshfield. ** - Thomas' dau, Anna-3, b. 19 March 1696-6, married Joseph YOUNG 13 Oct 1718,Scituate. Joseph was son of Joseph-2 and (Sarah Davis??) of Eastham,Barnstable County ** - Anna and Joseph moved to Pownalborough,Mass.[now Maine], which is now known as Wiscassett, Joseph died there in 1770 can anyone tell me more of the Oldham family ? Cynthia admin.of Massachusetts Bay Colony mailing list http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/Ma-Bay-Colony