Thanks alot, Beverly! Phew! The other post had me worried! Argh! There's nothing like asking for one thing, and having EVERYONE decide what you really need is something completely different. Maybe he meant to be helpful in his own way, but that sort of thing never does anything but ensure that you won't get what you actually needed. The Rice Assn article does appear to say that Gershom had one son who had Edmund Rice's DNA, and two sons who did not, but it wasn't altogether clear. There is a not quite legible graphic with the article that shows that one of Gershom's sons shares Edmund Y DNA, as did descendants of Thomas's other sons, and two sons of Gershom had a completely different haplotype. Another Rice Assn newsletter article on the same subject does clear it up. "Results showed the [Y DNA of the] new [third] Gershom descendant agreed with the majority [the Edmund Rice descendants], not with the old [two] Gershom descendants who still agreed with each other." Thanks to you, we now know that the town record thought that Gershom was Thomas's child. That should be pretty definitive, unless the Gershom who had children born in Connecticut was really a different person, which he strongly appears not to have been. Now, a different Gershom Rice b 1696 or 1697 did marry Esther/ Hester Haynes. Just to eliminate any confusion: Genealogy of Gershom Rice When it became obvious that two of Gershom3 Rice's sons were not biological descendants of Edmund1 Rice, we started searching genealogical records for Gershom, especially in Connecticut. Ward recounts his early-married life based on Groton VR, land records, and a letter from his mother-in-law to his wife Elizabeth Balcom, but notes there is no known evidence of Gershom's marriage[9]. A copy of Groton, Conn., Vital Records[10] (vol. 1 p.112) of the original record shows: Elizabeth4, b. 20 October 1798 [sic] (1698) Abishai4, b. 16 October 1701 Sarah4, b. 9 February 1703 Matthias4, b. 26 January 1707/8 Ruth4, b. 11 April 1710 The births of all the children were all recorded simultaneously sometime after the birth of Ruth in 1710. Over the years the original records were transcribed at least twice and the original is apparently no longer available. New London and Groton were sacked and burned by Benedict Arnold's British troops during the Revolutionary War. The existing copy is all in the same handwriting [11]. Groton was founded in 1704 and sometime after, John Davie, the first Groton town clerk recorded his own children thusly: "These were all born in the town now called Groton"[12]. According to the above list the first three children were presumably born in what became Groton in New London County but only Abishai appears in New London VR: Rice, Abisha, s. Gershom & Elizabeth, b Oct 16, 1701[13]. Gershom Rice, Jr's birth has not been found listed anywhere but can be estimated from his gravestone as 1696[14]. Ms. Judith Johnson, genealogist of the Connecticut Historical Society, found two items pertaining to Elizabeth. Her baptism at the First Congregational Church of Stonington, Conn. is listed: Nov. 27, 1698, Elizabeth, daughter of Gershom Rice, of Sudbury[15]. Also the following from the Diary of Manasseh Minor of Stonington[16]: "1 October 1698, mrs rise came here to ly in.; 18 October, mrs Rise was brote on bed &; 2 december 1698, mrs Rice went home & El went with them to the island." >From other entries in the diary El can be identified as Manasseh's son Elnathan and the island was probably Fishers Island, 4 miles off Stonington's coast. Thus, Elizabeth was apparently born away from home at Stonington, (established 1649), Abishai was born in New London (established 1646) and the later children in Groton (established 1705), but that does not mean the family actually changed locations. The above towns and Norwich (established 1659) were all part of New London Co. Minor's diary cryptically records the movement and activities of early settlers from 1696 to 1720 and makes clear that there was remarkably frequent horseback traffic between the area and Boston. Gershom Rice was born at Marlborough, Mass. on 9 May 1667[17] and died 19 Dec 1768 at Worcester, Mass[18]. No record has ever been found of any marriage ceremony. Gershom Rice is found in a list of Massachusetts Militia in May 1690[19] but by Nov 1698 Elizabeth is identified in Stonington, Conn. as his daughter, although he is listed as of Sudbury. He also appears on a list of settlers in Groton, Conn. "east of the river before 1700[20], in a list of Freemen there in 1708[21] and as serving on a jury in New London on 31 May 1703. Land records of Groton, Conn. place Gershom there in 1704[22] when Gershom Rice of Groton, Conn. and Jonas Rice of Sudbury, Mass. purchased land from Nehemiah Smith. Gershom and Jonas sold land back to Smith (and Daniel Lamb) on 16 May 1709. No wives were listed in either transaction. It is not clear where Gershom's residence was for he continued to live in Groton after selling land back to Smith in 1709. He probably had received land as a pioneer settler. Elizabeth Balcom was born 16 May 1672, daughter of Henry and Elizabeth (Haynes) Balcom of Charlestown, Mass[23]. No record of any marriage has been found. However, her name and identity as daughter of Henry Balcom and wife of Gershom Rice do appear in a land transaction dated 12 Nov 1709. "Gershom Rice, of Groton, Conn., and his wife, Elizabeth (Balcom) Rice sold to her brothers, John and Joseph Balcom, of Sudbury, Nov 12, 1709 for Forty and Two pounds "[24]. Ward reports a letter from her mother Elizabeth (Haynes) Balcom dated 1 April 1713 to "her loving daughter, Elizabeth Rice, living in Groton"[25]. No record of her death exists except (according to Ward) a reference Gershom made in an interview with the Boston Gazette in which her "age at death was about 80"[26]. I didn't catch which Rice genealogy my helpful other informant cited, but Ward's was originally the authoritative one. Many of the records do name her only as Elizabeth. It is fairly clear that Gershom Rice was from the Sudbury area. Not that I urgently need to know. My interest in Gershom is that he is in my mitochondrial lineage. His wife and children are not. Ward's genealogy is at Google Books. It says that Gershom Rice married Elizabeth, daughter of Henry and Elizabeth (Haynes) Balcolm, who were married at Charlestown, Aug 12, 1666 by Lt. Edmund goodnow, all of whom were afterwards of Sudbury. Then it says that Gershom Rice was residing at Growton, Apr 1, 1713, as appeasr by a letter of that date saddressed to his wife, from "Elizabeth Balcom to her lioving daughter, Elizabeth Rice, livnig oin Groton. A portion of that letter was for Gershom Rice, Jr., Elizabeth Rice and Matthias Rice, in which she subscribes herself their grandmother, Elizabeth Balcom. Edmund Rice Assn article mentions also a deed that mentions her brothers. And maybe her father. So there's alot of can't read what the book really says going on. Elizabeth Haynes was the mother of Elizabeth Balcom who married Gershom Rice. Eyes rolling. Yours, Dora Smith Austin, TX tiggernut24@yahoo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beverly" <beverlydonovan@verizon.net> To: "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@yahoo.com>; <mamiddle@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 8:49 AM Subject: Re: [MAMiddle] Gershom Rice > NEHGS shows Gershom Rice, b. May 9, 1667 to Thomas & Mary Didn't > find a marriage for a Thomas Rice to a Mary in that time frame. > > Found a George Raymond, son of Thomas & Elizabeth, died aug 31, 1836 of > comsumption age 29 y, 6 m. > Lived in Beverly, MA. > > Didn't find anything for Eli.