Fitchburg is in Worcester County, MA On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Dora Smith <tiggernut24@yahoo.com> wrote: > You'se pulling my chain. Grin. > > Yours, > Dora Smith > Austin, TX > tiggernut24@yahoo.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David E. Cann" <decann@infionline.net> > To: <mamiddle@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 7:44 PM > Subject: Re: [MAMiddle] Which county is Fitchburg in? > > > > Middlesex > > > > > > David E. Cann > > decann@infionline.net > > > > and the body of the message > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject > and the body of the email with no additional text. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Fitchburg, Massachusetts is in Worcester county Judie ----- Original Message ----- From: "David E. Cann" <decann@infionline.net> To: <mamiddle@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [MAMiddle] Which county is Fitchburg in? > Middlesex > > > David E. Cann > decann@infionline.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: mamiddle-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:mamiddle-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Dora Smith > Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:35 PM > To: maworces@rootsweb.com; mamiddle@rootsweb.com > Subject: [MAMiddle] Which county is Fitchburg in? > > I know that Fitchburg is on a county line. I cannot extract from Google > which county it's in. The only thing I've learned so far is that most > legislators represent both counties, and Worcester was made partly from > Middlesex County. > > Yours, > Dora Smith > Austin, TX > tiggernut24@yahoo.com > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject and > the body of the email with no additional text. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

One really good source for this kind of information is *Historical Data Relating to Counties, Cities and Town in Massachusetts* by William Francis Galvin. In fact, I consider it one of the most important references in my library and have used it numerous times to find out where my families were living at a particular time. It was published by the NEHGS in 1997 and may be available from booksellers online. It gives dates for original establishments, divisions, incorporations, annexations, and boundaries. According to this book, Fitchburg is in Worcester Co., and parts were annexed to Westminster and Ashby. Karen Sullivan -----Original Message----- From: mamiddle-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:mamiddle-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Dora Smith Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 2:02 PM To: Dora Smith; mamiddle@rootsweb.com; maworces@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MAMiddle] Now I'm really wondering where Asa lived Have some of the mystery. It says below that Asa spent most of his life in Westminster, not Winchendon. What's more, in the 1860 census, he lived in Westminster, not Winchendon. I'm a bit dyslexic. I've never been able to keep those two places straight. Now, in 1850, the family was all over Fitchburg. For instance, Asa's son Charles H lived nearby, in Fitchburg. His son Asa W did live ni Gardner, and henceforth lived in Gardner. However, I found at Ancestry.com a book of records of Fitchburg. There are extensive mentions of land owned by Asa, though it doesn't describe it in any detail, and three of his sons, Asa W, Charles H, and Eli W, appear in the militia roll in 1844 and 1846. I think maybe the historian below simply got it wrong; the family lived in Fitchburg and he didn't know it. If Asa was buying and selling land all over the place, maybe it was easy to miss. Asa's wife was a daughter of Hezekiah Walker, and his father was a land speculator. This family group were bipolar; they could look rather like a bipolar former landlord of mine, who made more than $20,000 one year buying and selling url's on the Internet. Not I"m kidding. But I do have to wonder if part of the confusion was that the land was actually on the border between Westminster and Fitchburg. If so, then does anyone know where it is likely to have been? Yours, Dora Smith Austin, TX tiggernut24@yahoo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Dora Smith To: mamiddle@rootsweb.com ; maworces@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 10:43 AM Subject: Now I'm really wondering where Asa lived David Hoyt, on the Middlesex Co list, who thinks like alot of people that I've not been pounded into submission yet, sent me a town and county map of Massachusetts, which was actually a very great favor. Map raises more questions than it answers (LOL) Family genealogy says that Winchendon and Ashby are adjacent. From my notes: --------------------------- Some years after his marriage he moved to Westminster and spent much of his life there. Owned successivley Jonathan Sawyer and Smyrna Whitney farms in north part of town and afterward the Abraham Wood house and lot on the common. After his first wife died, he m 2 Widow Hannah A (How) Peabody and resided in te former Dr. White House (History of Westminster, MA, 840-2.) NEHGS Massachusetts bmd database to 1910 shows the record of the marriage. Asa Raymond, age 72, farmer, of Westminster, b Ashby, son of Daniel and Polly (Kinsly). Married Hannah A (Howe) Peabody, age 49, born Westminster, to Reuben K and Hannah (Minot). It says it was his second marriage. They were married in Westminster by Mo A Stevens, clergyman, of Ashburnham. Death record says he died in Westminster at age 92 of old age, having been born in Ashby. Place of birth, which is also said to be Westminster, is confirmed from Ashby Town Records to 1850. Westminster is right next to Ashby. ------------------------ Map show Ashburnham squat between them. Was Ashburnham a recent development or something? Next question; the 1850, 1860 and 1870 census show Asa's and his son Eli W's farms growing even longer legs than they already appear to have had. This farm had such long legs, it jumped clear over adjacent towns in the process of moving back and forth between Winchendon and Shutesbury. Are Gardner adn Westminster recent developments, or is it that Ashburnham is a recent development and it was part of Winchendon? And if Asa lived most of his life in Westminster, why does the census show his humungous farm variously in Fitchburg and Winchendon? No, it wasn't so big it spanned several towns. I was hoping that someone here would just know how the descriptions of where Asa's farm was and the census make sense. Of course I know tehre is such a thing as a historical society. If I need to call one, which one would be most likely to have the answer? There are probably 50 of them, especially since the towns in question span two counties. Thanks! Yours, Dora Smith Austin, TX tiggernut24@yahoo.com To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

You'se pulling my chain. Grin. Yours, Dora Smith Austin, TX tiggernut24@yahoo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "David E. Cann" <decann@infionline.net> To: <mamiddle@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [MAMiddle] Which county is Fitchburg in? > Middlesex > > > David E. Cann > decann@infionline.net > > and the body of the message

Have some of the mystery. It says below that Asa spent most of his life in Westminster, not Winchendon. What's more, in the 1860 census, he lived in Westminster, not Winchendon. I'm a bit dyslexic. I've never been able to keep those two places straight. Now, in 1850, the family was all over Fitchburg. For instance, Asa's son Charles H lived nearby, in Fitchburg. His son Asa W did live ni Gardner, and henceforth lived in Gardner. However, I found at Ancestry.com a book of records of Fitchburg. There are extensive mentions of land owned by Asa, though it doesn't describe it in any detail, and three of his sons, Asa W, Charles H, and Eli W, appear in the militia roll in 1844 and 1846. I think maybe the historian below simply got it wrong; the family lived in Fitchburg and he didn't know it. If Asa was buying and selling land all over the place, maybe it was easy to miss. Asa's wife was a daughter of Hezekiah Walker, and his father was a land speculator. This family group were bipolar; they could look rather like a bipolar former landlord of mine, who made more than $20,000 one year buying and selling url's on the Internet. Not I"m kidding. But I do have to wonder if part of the confusion was that the land was actually on the border between Westminster and Fitchburg. If so, then does anyone know where it is likely to have been? Yours, Dora Smith Austin, TX tiggernut24@yahoo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Dora Smith To: mamiddle@rootsweb.com ; maworces@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 10:43 AM Subject: Now I'm really wondering where Asa lived David Hoyt, on the Middlesex Co list, who thinks like alot of people that I've not been pounded into submission yet, sent me a town and county map of Massachusetts, which was actually a very great favor. Map raises more questions than it answers (LOL) Family genealogy says that Winchendon and Ashby are adjacent. From my notes: --------------------------- Some years after his marriage he moved to Westminster and spent much of his life there. Owned successivley Jonathan Sawyer and Smyrna Whitney farms in north part of town and afterward the Abraham Wood house and lot on the common. After his first wife died, he m 2 Widow Hannah A (How) Peabody and resided in te former Dr. White House (History of Westminster, MA, 840-2.) NEHGS Massachusetts bmd database to 1910 shows the record of the marriage. Asa Raymond, age 72, farmer, of Westminster, b Ashby, son of Daniel and Polly (Kinsly). Married Hannah A (Howe) Peabody, age 49, born Westminster, to Reuben K and Hannah (Minot). It says it was his second marriage. They were married in Westminster by Mo A Stevens, clergyman, of Ashburnham. Death record says he died in Westminster at age 92 of old age, having been born in Ashby. Place of birth, which is also said to be Westminster, is confirmed from Ashby Town Records to 1850. Westminster is right next to Ashby. ------------------------ Map show Ashburnham squat between them. Was Ashburnham a recent development or something? Next question; the 1850, 1860 and 1870 census show Asa's and his son Eli W's farms growing even longer legs than they already appear to have had. This farm had such long legs, it jumped clear over adjacent towns in the process of moving back and forth between Winchendon and Shutesbury. Are Gardner adn Westminster recent developments, or is it that Ashburnham is a recent development and it was part of Winchendon? And if Asa lived most of his life in Westminster, why does the census show his humungous farm variously in Fitchburg and Winchendon? No, it wasn't so big it spanned several towns. I was hoping that someone here would just know how the descriptions of where Asa's farm was and the census make sense. Of course I know tehre is such a thing as a historical society. If I need to call one, which one would be most likely to have the answer? There are probably 50 of them, especially since the towns in question span two counties. Thanks! Yours, Dora Smith Austin, TX tiggernut24@yahoo.com

For the current counties this is a great resource: http://www.sec.state.ma.us/ELE/elecct/cctidx.htm Kendra At 08:35 PM 1/23/2010, Dora Smith wrote: >I know that Fitchburg is on a county line. I cannot extract from >Google which county it's in. The only thing I've learned so far >is that most legislators represent both counties, and Worcester was >made partly from Middlesex County. > >Yours, >Dora Smith >Austin, TX >tiggernut24@yahoo.com > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the > subject and the body of the email with no additional text. >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

For the current counties this is a great resource: http://www.sec.state.ma.us/ELE/elecct/cctidx.htm Kendra At 08:35 PM 1/23/2010, Dora Smith wrote: >I know that Fitchburg is on a county line. I cannot extract from >Google which county it's in. The only thing I've learned so far >is that most legislators represent both counties, and Worcester was >made partly from Middlesex County. > >Yours, >Dora Smith >Austin, TX >tiggernut24@yahoo.com > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the > subject and the body of the email with no additional text. >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My favorite city/county/state search tool, which I keep bookmarked in my "Favorites - Links" folder (IE7), is Rootsweb's tool. http://resources.rootsweb.ancestry.com/USA/ It shows Fitchburg in Worcester Co., by the way.

David Hoyt, on the Middlesex Co list, who thinks like alot of people that I've not been pounded into submission yet, sent me a town and county map of Massachusetts, which was actually a very great favor. Map raises more questions than it answers (LOL) Family genealogy says that Winchendon and Ashby are adjacent. From my notes: --------------------------- Some years after his marriage he moved to Westminster and spent much of his life there. Owned successivley Jonathan Sawyer and Smyrna Whitney farms in north part of town and afterward the Abraham Wood house and lot on the common. After his first wife died, he m 2 Widow Hannah A (How) Peabody and resided in te former Dr. White House (History of Westminster, MA, 840-2.) NEHGS Massachusetts bmd database to 1910 shows the record of the marriage. Asa Raymond, age 72, farmer, of Westminster, b Ashby, son of Daniel and Polly (Kinsly). Married Hannah A (Howe) Peabody, age 49, born Westminster, to Reuben K and Hannah (Minot). It says it was his second marriage. They were married in Westminster by Mo A Stevens, clergyman, of Ashburnham. Death record says he died in Westminster at age 92 of old age, having been born in Ashby. Place of birth, which is also said to be Westminster, is confirmed from Ashby Town Records to 1850. Westminster is right next to Ashby. ------------------------ Map show Ashburnham squat between them. Was Ashburnham a recent development or something? Next question; the 1850, 1860 and 1870 census show Asa's and his son Eli W's farms growing even longer legs than they already appear to have had. This farm had such long legs, it jumped clear over adjacent towns in the process of moving back and forth between Winchendon and Shutesbury. Are Gardner adn Westminster recent developments, or is it that Ashburnham is a recent development and it was part of Winchendon? And if Asa lived most of his life in Westminster, why does the census show his humungous farm variously in Fitchburg and Winchendon? No, it wasn't so big it spanned several towns. I was hoping that someone here would just know how the descriptions of where Asa's farm was and the census make sense. Of course I know tehre is such a thing as a historical society. If I need to call one, which one would be most likely to have the answer? There are probably 50 of them, especially since the towns in question span two counties. Thanks! Yours, Dora Smith Austin, TX tiggernut24@yahoo.com

Hello, If anyone is interested in the large WINN family that lived in Arlington from the 1800's and into the very early 1900's, some of the ladies in that family wrote "daily diaries." And volunteers in the Arlington Historical Society have been posting information from the Diaries on the Arlington "Town" List (non genealogy) for a couple years now. The Diaries are from about 1890 to 1910. Sometimes the volunteers post information about the people mentioned in the Diaries, and they did yesterday. If anyone is interested in the extended family of 2 unmarried WINN sisters and their unmarried niece, let me know. Betty (near Lowell, MA)

Hello, It might be a good time to remind researchers how much information is on the www.mass.gov web site. This is the list of the counties and which towns and cities are in which county: http://www.sec.state.ma.us/ele/elecct/cctidx.htm The site has a fairly good search-engine, so you don't have too much trouble finding what you want on it. I can offer one hint. I keep a "folder" on my "desktop" and it's marked Genealogy. If I have web sites / pages which I refer to often, I "save it to desktop" and then move it into that folder. I could also mention that there are 2 ways to get "free" maps of places (states or countries) - the kind you hold in your hand. You can write or call the Dept. of Transportation at the State House you're interested in and ask them to mail you a "Official Transportation Map of Massachusetts" - for example. Or, you can find the web site for the "Tourism Office" for the state. They will usually send you out a "free" Travel Guide or Vacation Guide - which includes a map. http://www.massvacation.com/ (I just received one for Washington State. And, I've received some from the Province of Quebec in the past.) Betty (near Lowell, MA) FYI: If you scroll down and click on: "all communities" http://www.virginia.gov/community/all.html It might be NY State or PA which seem to have "dozens" of counties.

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=ehedterminal&L=4&L0=Home&L1=Economic+Analysis&L2=Executive+Office+of+Housing+and+Economic+Development&L3=Department+of+Housing+and+Community+Development&sid=Ehed&b=terminalcontent&f=dhcd_profiles_profiles&csid=Ehed The above link will bring you to a profile of all towns FITCHBURG <097.htm> Worcester County Dora Smith wrote: > I know that Fitchburg is on a county line. I cannot extract from Google which county it's in. The only thing I've learned so far is that most legislators represent both counties, and Worcester was made partly from Middlesex County. > > Yours, > Dora Smith > Austin, TX > tiggernut24@yahoo.com > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2640 - Release Date: 01/23/10 07:33:00 > >

----- Original Message ----- From: "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@yahoo.com> To: <maworces@rootsweb.com>; <mamiddle@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:35 PM Subject: [MAMiddle] Which county is Fitchburg in? >I know that Fitchburg is on a county line. I cannot extract from Google >which county it's in. The only thing I've learned so far is that most >legislators represent both counties, and Worcester was made partly from >Middlesex County. > > Yours, > Dora Smith > Austin, TX > tiggernut24@yahoo.com I believe Fitchburg is in Worcester Co at least those I know there(and I use to work with a few from Fitchburg) say it is basically considered to be inWorcester Co. But it could be a small part of Middlesex(western part) I guess. > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject > and the body of the email with no additional text. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Middlesex David E. Cann decann@infionline.net -----Original Message----- From: mamiddle-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:mamiddle-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Dora Smith Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:35 PM To: maworces@rootsweb.com; mamiddle@rootsweb.com Subject: [MAMiddle] Which county is Fitchburg in? I know that Fitchburg is on a county line. I cannot extract from Google which county it's in. The only thing I've learned so far is that most legislators represent both counties, and Worcester was made partly from Middlesex County. Yours, Dora Smith Austin, TX tiggernut24@yahoo.com To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I know that Fitchburg is on a county line. I cannot extract from Google which county it's in. The only thing I've learned so far is that most legislators represent both counties, and Worcester was made partly from Middlesex County. Yours, Dora Smith Austin, TX tiggernut24@yahoo.com

Here are the descriptions I have of where Asa Raymond, and his son Eli/ Elijah W., lived. Some years after his marriage he moved to Westminster and spent much of his life there. Owned successivley Jonathan Sawyer and Smyrna Whitney farms in north part of town and afterward the Abraham Wood house and lot on the common. After his first wife died, he m 2 Widow Hannah A (How) Peabody and resided in te former Dr. White House (History of Westminster, MA, 840-2.) Anyone know where these places would be, or how to find out? Place of birth, which is also said to be Westminster, is confirmed from Ashby Town Records to 1850. Westminster is right next to Ashby. Now, Asa was evidently a wealthy man, and held property worth $5000 in 1850 and $10,000 in 1860. In 1850, this big plot of land with long legs capable of great mobility, was in Fitchburg, and his son Eli W lived with him, was not married and had no children. Eli's future wife also lived in Fitchburg, but owned no property. She lived with her widowed mother or orphaned older sister, and three grown male laborers. In 1860, this big plot of land had sped back to Westminster. Eli W was enumerated immediately before Asa, suggesting that his land was adjacent and his father had given him a sizeable piece of his land worth $2000, and his own land had doubled in value. He was married, and had three children, including a child who was not born until 1864 and always thenafter was the right age to have been born in 1864. A map shows that the three places are adjacent, unless Ashburnham is also a town, because Ashby is apparently between the three of them. Only South Ashburnham and the Ashburnham state forest show on the Google map, and I could have sworn Ashby was a town with its own books of vital records. Otherwise, the border between Westminster, Ashby and Fitchburg is awfully elongaged and angular and seemingly must pass through the state forest. If Asa's land bordered all three, where would it have been, given the above descriptions of where it was at any point ni time? Most of the places listed don't sound like large farms, so probably one or two of them was his actual big farm, and the rest were places where he lived in retirement. Yours, Dora Smith Austin, TX tiggernut24@yahoo.com

I have these two photos in my family photo collection that are poorly identified. The older woman is "Talitia", who does not exist in my large database. The other is of a girl who looks possibly related but would be her daughter or granddaughter. They are wearing identical white crocheted lace collars on very similar dark dresses. The older woman has a white bonnet with the strings hanging untied. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~villandra/Talitia.jpg and http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~villandra/Girl-2.jpg Atleast one of the photos is in an old-fashioned metal plate photo in a gold-toned ornate frame, in one of those boxes with hinges. The one of the older woman may be as well. Some of those photos I've got can be dated with certainty to 1858 or before. I know who some of the people were. One may date to 1865. The family from which I have this type of photo contained alot of very fanatical Baptists, the photos were with them, and that's the impression I get of these dresses. It looks like they were nicely dressed, but the effect is severe. And the girl looks like an entire story in expected teenaged conversion tales, complete with where it was an act. Was the collar one of those Irish crocheted collars? It's plainer than those I found online. Yours, Dora Smith Austin, TX tiggernut24@yahoo.com

Dear Dora Smith also tigernut44 You stated the following "I need to check. Gershom Rice was allegedly born 9 May 1667 in Marlborough, Massachusetts. But my source gives him no parents. There is genetic irregularity about some of his sons' descent from his purported grandfather. Can someone please just check and see who the birth or baptism record lists as his parents?" THIS IS EXACTKY what I provided to you. As for tigernut44's statement "There's nothing like asking for one thing, and having EVERYONE decide what you really need is something completely different. Maybe he meant to be helpful in his own way, but that sort of thing never does anything but ensure that you won't get what you actually needed. Totally uncalled for. As a resident of Marlborough Massachusetts for the past 50 years and spending over 7 YEARS generating the Web Site that I sent the link to you, I have a fair knowledge of Marlborough's history and the people who first settled here. A person with average curiosity would have scrolled down and found a link to return them to the initial page and found more. THIS IS NOT MY PERSONAL GENALOGY.. it was prepared in 1861 by a man named Charles Hudson and both of you would have found this out IF you took the time. My research over the 7 years took me to grave yards, city hall, books and other places. I was asked several years ago to speak before the Rice Association at one of their annual meetings held in Marlborough at which I explained my site. I then took them on a tour of the cemeteries in Marlborough to point out RICE gravestones which many took pictures of. It was a great day and the Association was thank full for what I had done. As I write this I have opened before me the TAN BOOK also known as the Vital Records of Marlborough Massachusetts to the Year 1850. On page 155 for Marlborough Births there is listed: GERSHOM, s Thomas and Mary, May 9, 1667 I remind that you stated "I'm looking specifically for who the town records say fathered Gershom allegedly b 1667" OBTW, you not being familiar with Massachusetts and their records, the TAN BOOKS represent those records held by each City and Town in Massachusetts. Also, I am a member of the NEHGS and I do not need to go there because they have what I have. So now I close the book and put it away and also close this message by saying.... Sorry I was of no help, I will make sure not to respond to any more of your messages. Good luck in your quest Sincerely John Buczek descendant of William Ward one of the 13 original Proprietors of Marlborough along with Edmund Rice -----Original Message----- From: Dora Smith [mailto:tiggernut24@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 4:56 PM To: John Buczek; mamiddle@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [MAMiddle] Need NEHGS vital records lookups John, I'm not looknig for what a Rice genealogy says, I'm looking specifically for who the town records say fathered Gershom allegedly b 1667. The town records are a primary record and should be authoritative on who fathered Gershom Rice. In the presence of DNA reason to doubt that Gershom was Thomas Rice's son, what a family genealogy says is nothing more than hearsay. I specifically asked for a lookup in the NEHGS town records databases. Not to try to argue you out of knowing what I want better than I do, because I know that won't work, but I do want to make sure noone else thinks you provided what I asked for! The Rice Assn says he married Elizabeth Balcom, not Elizabeth Haynes. They offered two pieces of proof that Elizabeth was a Balcom. Yours, Dora Smith Austin, TX tiggernut24@yahoo.com

Thanks alot, Beverly! Phew! The other post had me worried! Argh! There's nothing like asking for one thing, and having EVERYONE decide what you really need is something completely different. Maybe he meant to be helpful in his own way, but that sort of thing never does anything but ensure that you won't get what you actually needed. The Rice Assn article does appear to say that Gershom had one son who had Edmund Rice's DNA, and two sons who did not, but it wasn't altogether clear. There is a not quite legible graphic with the article that shows that one of Gershom's sons shares Edmund Y DNA, as did descendants of Thomas's other sons, and two sons of Gershom had a completely different haplotype. Another Rice Assn newsletter article on the same subject does clear it up. "Results showed the [Y DNA of the] new [third] Gershom descendant agreed with the majority [the Edmund Rice descendants], not with the old [two] Gershom descendants who still agreed with each other." Thanks to you, we now know that the town record thought that Gershom was Thomas's child. That should be pretty definitive, unless the Gershom who had children born in Connecticut was really a different person, which he strongly appears not to have been. Now, a different Gershom Rice b 1696 or 1697 did marry Esther/ Hester Haynes. Just to eliminate any confusion: Genealogy of Gershom Rice When it became obvious that two of Gershom3 Rice's sons were not biological descendants of Edmund1 Rice, we started searching genealogical records for Gershom, especially in Connecticut. Ward recounts his early-married life based on Groton VR, land records, and a letter from his mother-in-law to his wife Elizabeth Balcom, but notes there is no known evidence of Gershom's marriage[9]. A copy of Groton, Conn., Vital Records[10] (vol. 1 p.112) of the original record shows: Elizabeth4, b. 20 October 1798 [sic] (1698) Abishai4, b. 16 October 1701 Sarah4, b. 9 February 1703 Matthias4, b. 26 January 1707/8 Ruth4, b. 11 April 1710 The births of all the children were all recorded simultaneously sometime after the birth of Ruth in 1710. Over the years the original records were transcribed at least twice and the original is apparently no longer available. New London and Groton were sacked and burned by Benedict Arnold's British troops during the Revolutionary War. The existing copy is all in the same handwriting [11]. Groton was founded in 1704 and sometime after, John Davie, the first Groton town clerk recorded his own children thusly: "These were all born in the town now called Groton"[12]. According to the above list the first three children were presumably born in what became Groton in New London County but only Abishai appears in New London VR: Rice, Abisha, s. Gershom & Elizabeth, b Oct 16, 1701[13]. Gershom Rice, Jr's birth has not been found listed anywhere but can be estimated from his gravestone as 1696[14]. Ms. Judith Johnson, genealogist of the Connecticut Historical Society, found two items pertaining to Elizabeth. Her baptism at the First Congregational Church of Stonington, Conn. is listed: Nov. 27, 1698, Elizabeth, daughter of Gershom Rice, of Sudbury[15]. Also the following from the Diary of Manasseh Minor of Stonington[16]: "1 October 1698, mrs rise came here to ly in.; 18 October, mrs Rise was brote on bed &; 2 december 1698, mrs Rice went home & El went with them to the island." >From other entries in the diary El can be identified as Manasseh's son Elnathan and the island was probably Fishers Island, 4 miles off Stonington's coast. Thus, Elizabeth was apparently born away from home at Stonington, (established 1649), Abishai was born in New London (established 1646) and the later children in Groton (established 1705), but that does not mean the family actually changed locations. The above towns and Norwich (established 1659) were all part of New London Co. Minor's diary cryptically records the movement and activities of early settlers from 1696 to 1720 and makes clear that there was remarkably frequent horseback traffic between the area and Boston. Gershom Rice was born at Marlborough, Mass. on 9 May 1667[17] and died 19 Dec 1768 at Worcester, Mass[18]. No record has ever been found of any marriage ceremony. Gershom Rice is found in a list of Massachusetts Militia in May 1690[19] but by Nov 1698 Elizabeth is identified in Stonington, Conn. as his daughter, although he is listed as of Sudbury. He also appears on a list of settlers in Groton, Conn. "east of the river before 1700[20], in a list of Freemen there in 1708[21] and as serving on a jury in New London on 31 May 1703. Land records of Groton, Conn. place Gershom there in 1704[22] when Gershom Rice of Groton, Conn. and Jonas Rice of Sudbury, Mass. purchased land from Nehemiah Smith. Gershom and Jonas sold land back to Smith (and Daniel Lamb) on 16 May 1709. No wives were listed in either transaction. It is not clear where Gershom's residence was for he continued to live in Groton after selling land back to Smith in 1709. He probably had received land as a pioneer settler. Elizabeth Balcom was born 16 May 1672, daughter of Henry and Elizabeth (Haynes) Balcom of Charlestown, Mass[23]. No record of any marriage has been found. However, her name and identity as daughter of Henry Balcom and wife of Gershom Rice do appear in a land transaction dated 12 Nov 1709. "Gershom Rice, of Groton, Conn., and his wife, Elizabeth (Balcom) Rice sold to her brothers, John and Joseph Balcom, of Sudbury, Nov 12, 1709 for Forty and Two pounds "[24]. Ward reports a letter from her mother Elizabeth (Haynes) Balcom dated 1 April 1713 to "her loving daughter, Elizabeth Rice, living in Groton"[25]. No record of her death exists except (according to Ward) a reference Gershom made in an interview with the Boston Gazette in which her "age at death was about 80"[26]. I didn't catch which Rice genealogy my helpful other informant cited, but Ward's was originally the authoritative one. Many of the records do name her only as Elizabeth. It is fairly clear that Gershom Rice was from the Sudbury area. Not that I urgently need to know. My interest in Gershom is that he is in my mitochondrial lineage. His wife and children are not. Ward's genealogy is at Google Books. It says that Gershom Rice married Elizabeth, daughter of Henry and Elizabeth (Haynes) Balcolm, who were married at Charlestown, Aug 12, 1666 by Lt. Edmund goodnow, all of whom were afterwards of Sudbury. Then it says that Gershom Rice was residing at Growton, Apr 1, 1713, as appeasr by a letter of that date saddressed to his wife, from "Elizabeth Balcom to her lioving daughter, Elizabeth Rice, livnig oin Groton. A portion of that letter was for Gershom Rice, Jr., Elizabeth Rice and Matthias Rice, in which she subscribes herself their grandmother, Elizabeth Balcom. Edmund Rice Assn article mentions also a deed that mentions her brothers. And maybe her father. So there's alot of can't read what the book really says going on. Elizabeth Haynes was the mother of Elizabeth Balcom who married Gershom Rice. Eyes rolling. Yours, Dora Smith Austin, TX tiggernut24@yahoo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beverly" <beverlydonovan@verizon.net> To: "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@yahoo.com>; <mamiddle@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 8:49 AM Subject: Re: [MAMiddle] Gershom Rice > NEHGS shows Gershom Rice, b. May 9, 1667 to Thomas & Mary Didn't > find a marriage for a Thomas Rice to a Mary in that time frame. > > Found a George Raymond, son of Thomas & Elizabeth, died aug 31, 1836 of > comsumption age 29 y, 6 m. > Lived in Beverly, MA. > > Didn't find anything for Eli.

John, I'm not looknig for what a Rice genealogy says, I'm looking specifically for who the town records say fathered Gershom allegedly b 1667. The town records are a primary record and should be authoritative on who fathered Gershom Rice. In the presence of DNA reason to doubt that Gershom was Thomas Rice's son, what a family genealogy says is nothing more than hearsay. I specifically asked for a lookup in the NEHGS town records databases. Not to try to argue you out of knowing what I want better than I do, because I know that won't work, but I do want to make sure noone else thinks you provided what I asked for! The Rice Assn says he married Elizabeth Balcom, not Elizabeth Haynes. They offered two pieces of proof that Elizabeth was a Balcom. Yours, Dora Smith Austin, TX tiggernut24@yahoo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Buczek" <john.buczek@comcast.net> To: "'Dora Smith'" <tiggernut24@yahoo.com>; <mamiddle@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 9:02 AM Subject: RE: [MAMiddle] Need NEHGS vital records lookups >1 - 4 Thomas RICE married Mary King, and resided in Sudbury till 1664, when > he moved to Marlborough, of which township he was a proprietor. He died > November 16, 1681. He had thirteen children, six of whom were born in > Sudbury, the rest in Marlboro. > > 4 - 24 Grace, born -; died at Sudbury January 13, 1654. > 4 - 25 Thomas, born June 30, 1654; married Mary _____ > 4 - 26 Mary, born September 4, 1656 ; married 1678, Josiah White. > 4 - 27 Peter, born October 24,1658; married 1688, Mary Howe. > 4 - 28 Nathaniel, born January 3, 1660; married 1st, Sarah _____,and 2d, > Patience Stone, died 1726. > 4 - 29 Sarah, born January 1 5, 1662; married _____ Adams, and died at the > age of 80. > 4 - 30 Ephraim, born April 15, 1665 ; he was twice married, resided in > Sudbury, was a proprietor of Worcester. > 4 - 31 Gershom, born May 9, 1667; married Elizabeth Haynes. > 4 - 32 James, born March 6, 1669; married Sarah Stone. > 4 - 33 Frances, born February 3, 1671 ; married Benjamin Allen, > 4 - 34 Jonas, born March 6, 1673; married, February 10, 1701-2, Mary > Stone, > resided at Worcester. > > Go here for the complete genealogy > > http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~historyofmarlborough/geniric > e.htm#Rice > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: mamiddle-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:mamiddle-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Dora Smith > Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 9:36 AM > To: mamiddle@rootsweb.com > Subject: [MAMiddle] Need NEHGS vital records lookups > > I need to check. Gershom Rice was allegedly born 9 May 1667 in > Marlborough, > Massachusetts. But my source gives him no parents. There is genetic > irregularity about some of his sons' descent from his purported > grandfather. > > > Can someone please just check and see who the birth or baptism record > lists > as his parents? > > Also, I have two great great or something uncles who I don't have deaths > for, and I'm particularly interested in their ages at death and causes of > death. In photos they look like they had severe cases of the manic > depression that ran in the family. > > Eli W Raymond, b 31 Dec 1824, lived in Westminster and/or Westchester, > Massachsuetts, a farmer. > > George Raymond, b 3 Mar 1835, a civil engineer in Fitchburg in 1880. That > may mean he was a laborer who operated machinery at the waterworks, in > that > time. I don't know if I looked for him in 1900 or not. If he was not > living then, he sure died younger than this line was inclined to. > > Thanks alot! > > Yours, > Dora Smith > Austin, TX > tiggernut24@yahoo.com > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject > and > the body of the email with no additional text. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > MAMIDDLE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2634 - Release Date: 01/20/10 > 09:12:00 >