My profound apologies. I clearly was not paying attention, and inexcusably sloppy, and linked several wrong people, even though their individual data (except marriage and perhaps parents) may be correct. Clearly the Nathaniel Bacon b 1737 did not marry at age 5! I have spent some time correcting my database, and believe David is correct. As were others who pointed out errors. Regards, Bob "David Kew" <David.Kew@verizon.net> wrote: > I have a problem with the suggested families. It seems most unlikely > that Nathaniel Bacon (1737) and Apphia Cole (1742) would be marrying > in 1745. Since the Eastham records clearly have Nathaniel Bacon and > Apphia Cole registering Intentions and marrying in 1745, I suggest > that these were Nathaniel Bacon (b. Eastham 2 Aug 1722), s/o Thomas > Bacon and Mary Sciffe, and Apphia Cole (b. Eastham 5 Oct 1724), d/o > Timothy Cole and Martha Almony.

Hi to all, Bob wrote: > 3. Jeremiah Bacon & Elizabeth Howes Married 10 December 1686 [Barnstable VR 1:393] > Elizabeth Hawes born 5 Oct 1661, Yarmouth. ]Yarmouth VR in M.D. 2:207] Elizabeth the dau of Capt John Hawes and Desire Gorham was 13 yer old. [note: Calculated birth would be 2 days before parents were married. Possible but needs verification.] Desire is Mayflower Descendant from Pilgrim John Howland] This may be a moot point, especially after David Kew's careful analysis of Nathaniel Bacon & Apphia Cole (which I agree with), but in the 'for what its worth category' I'll comment thusly: Elizabeth Howes (who married Jeremiah Bacon as per above) and Elizabeth Hawes were not identical. Elizabeth Hawes, b 5 Oct 1661 {Yarmouth VR in M.D. 2:207], the daughter of Capt. John Hawes and Desire Gorham, married Thomas Daggett 22 Jan 1683/84. He was of Martha's Vineyard, Bristol, R.I. (briefly), and Martha's Vineyard (Edgartown, Dukes, MA). Elizabeth Howes (birth or baptismal record not found) was the daughter of Jeremiah Howes and Sarah Prence. It was she who married Jeremiah Bacon 10 Dec 1686 [Barnstable VRs in MD 2:215] Their Daughter Sarah Born 16 of Octor 1687 Their Daughter Anna Born 16 of Novemr 1688 Their Daughter Mercy Born 30 of January 1689 Their Son Samuel born 15 of April 1692 Their Son Jeremiah Born 2 of Octor 1694 Their Son Joseph Born 15 of June 1695 Their Son Ebenezer Born 11 of March 1698 Their Son Nathaniel Born 11 of September 1700 Their Son Job born 23 of March 1703 Their Daughter Elizabeth born August 6th 1705 Best regards, Pam Sears

Thank you, David, for your concerns. All of this is new information to me, and I'm still trying to sort it all out. But what I have in front of me, sent by Bob and Dee Carroll, was published by the Mayflower Descendants containing the VR of Barnstable Co. (S&R CD.) I see the problem you mention -- a bridegroom of 8 years old probably didn't happen! Perhaps it's a typo of long-standing and the wedding date should have been 1755 rather than 1745. That would have made Nathaniel a more logical-sounding 18 years of age. Hopefully, one day, we'll get this all straightened out. Thanks so much for your reply. Suzi Larson

I have a problem with the suggested families. It seems most unlikely that Nathaniel Bacon (1737) and Apphia Cole (1742) would be marrying in 1745. Since the Eastham records clearly have Nathaniel Bacon and Apphia Cole registering Intentions and marrying in 1745, I suggest that these were Nathaniel Bacon (b. Eastham 2 Aug 1722), s/o Thomas Bacon and Mary Sciffe, and Apphia Cole (b. Eastham 5 Oct 1724), d/o Timothy Cole and Martha Almony. On 23 Jan 1766 "John Gould and Apphia Cole Both of Eastham were marrid By Mr Joseph Crocker Minster" (Eastham VR, MD 32:65), which would be a more normal age for Apphia Cole (1742). The long gap between the 1745 marriage and the births in Eastham to "Nathaniel and Apphia Bacon" of Thomas (4 Sep 1759) and Nathan (8 Jun 1761) potentially leaves time for Nathaniel (1737) to have married an unknown Apphia and have been the parents of Thomas and Nathan. Or Nathaniel (1722) and Apphia may have been in some other location meanwhile, and had older children. What would be really useful here are some wills, or other records beyond the VRs and secondary records. -- Sincerely, David Kew

On Dec 6, 2005, at 12:00 PM, Dale Cook wrote: > At 11:20 AM 12/5/2005, Darrell and Suzi wrote: >> According to the MAINE FAMILIES IN 1790, Vol. 4, my "Thomas Bacon, b. >> Eastham {Barnstable}, MA, 4 Sep 1759, {was the } son of Nathaniel and >> Apphia {Cole} Bacon (MD, 16 [1914]", etc. The problem is, I cannot >> find any further proof of the parentage of Thomas Bacon. > You cited the proof - the literally transcribed birth record for > Thomas - MD 16 [1914]:203 - > "Thomas Bacon Son of Nathaniel and Aphia Bacon was Born in Eastham > September the 4 Day 1759" Carrying the line further back mostly from Mayf Desc publishing the VR of Barnstable Co [S&R CD.] 1. BACON, Nathaniel, Barnstable, m. 4 Dec. 1642, Hannah, d. of Rev. John Mayo, [Savage Geneal Dict; Barnst VR 1:392 2 Jeremiah Bacon b 8 May 1657 Barnstable son of Nathaniel and Hannah Mayo [Barnstable VR 1:392 ] 3. Jeremiah Bacon & Elizabeth Howes Married 10 December 1686 [Barnstable VR 1:393] Elizabeth Hawes born 5 Oct 1661, Yarmouth. ]Yarmouth VR in M.D. 2:207] Elizabeth the dau of Capt John Hawes and Desire Gorham was 13 yer old. [note: Calculated birth would be 2 days before parents were married. Possible but needs verification.] Desire is Mayflower Descendant from Pilgrim John Howland] 4. a Their Son Nathaniel Born Sept 11 1700. [Barnstable VR 1:392 in MayF Desc. 2:213] Gershom Cob & Hannah Davis married 24 Feb 1702/3 [Barnstable 1:302 MD 3:150] 4. b dau Sarah born 27 oct 1705 June 11th 1726 Nathll Bacon and Sarah Cob. [Barnstable II:362 MD 34:117 ] 5. "The Children of Nathaniel Bacon Son of Jeremiah Bacon & Sara his Wife". MD 32;53 ... Nathll Bacon born March 3 1737 6. "October ye 31th 1745 then Nathaniel Bacon and apphia cole both of Eastham were married by mr Joseph Crocker Clerk" [Eastham 145 MD 24:86] Regards, Bob Bob & Dee Carroll. Westport, NY, on Lake Champlain Relations of Bob & Dee http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=rcarroll

At 11:20 AM 12/5/2005, Darrell and Suzi wrote: >According to the MAINE FAMILIES IN 1790, Vol. 4, my "Thomas Bacon, b. >Eastham {Barnstable}, MA, 4 Sep 1759, {was the } son of Nathaniel and >Apphia {Cole} Bacon (MD, 16 [1914]", etc. The problem is, I cannot find >any further proof of the parentage of Thomas Bacon. You cited the proof - the literally transcribed birth record for Thomas - MD 16 [1914]:203 - "Thomas Bacon Son of Nathaniel and Aphia Bacon was Born in Eastham September the 4 Day 1759" Dale H. Cook; Research Member, NEHGS; Member, Mass. Soc. Mayf. Desc. Plymouth Co. MA Coordinator for the USGenWeb Project http://members.cox.net/oldcolony/index.shtml

Would anyone know who was the Editor of the Yarmouth Patriot or it may have been called the Register in 1917? If so would anyone know who or where his papers maybe held? He had the connection to Captain John Custis born VA to Joseph Custis, John died Yarmouth in 1810, this information will lead to the family of Custis in VA. This is a statement made by the editor yet regrets he is unable to publish this information at this date. The statement was made in the paper for the 50th anniversary of George and Sarah Etta Bray Ryder. Sarah is the daughter of Captain Henry and Deborah Custis Bray, Deborah is the daughter of Henry and Sally Young Custis, Henry the son of Captain John and Hannah Hawes Custis. We’ve been trying to track down this information for many years and the VA connection and wills do not help. Thank you Wanda of ME -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/192 - Release Date: 12/5/2005

Suzi, This information is from pages 388-391 of the "History of Gorham, Maine" by Hugh D. McLellan, published in Portland Maine by Smith and Sale in 1903. BACON FAMILY The Bacon family came from Barnstable, Mass. and were in Scarborough {a town next to Gorham} before their arrival in Gorham. About 1768, Nathaniel Bacon and his wife Apphia and a family of three sons were in Gorham. McLellan gives the names of the sons: Nathaniel, born about 1757, married Betty Dyer in 1782 Timothy, born about 1762, married Mary Irish in 1789 Josiah, born in 1766, married Lucy Hopkins in 1788 A girl, Martha, was born in 1769 and married Charles Hopkins in 1793. Nathaniel Bacon, Jr. and Betty Dyer had a son Thomas Bacon, born April 21, 1783, married Sally Burton in 1803, and died in 1816. Susan Lovell On Dec 5, 2005, at 11:20 AM, Darrell and Suzi wrote: > I am new to this list and am hoping there is someone who might be > able to help me. According to the MAINE FAMILIES IN 1790, Vol. 4, > my "Thomas Bacon, b. Eastham {Barnstable}, MA, 4 Sep 1759, {was > the } son of Nathaniel and Apphia {Cole} Bacon (MD, 16 [1914]", > etc. The problem is, I cannot find any further proof of the > parentage of Thomas Bacon. His name is not among several lists of > Nathaniel and Apphia's offspring that I have found. > > I would be so grateful if somebody could furnish me with more {or > different!} information. My Thomas ended up a settler in > Gouldsboro, Hancock, Maine, married Mary _______. Their son, > Thomas Jr. married Hannah Simmons - or Simons - and had Thomas III, > born 1814 in Gouldsboro. He was my 3rd great-grandfather. > > Thanks so very much! > > Suzi Larson > > > > ==== MABARNST Mailing List ==== > Visit the Barnstable County GenWeb site at: > www.rootsweb.com/~mabarnst > It is ably done by the founder and former Admin of this list, and > contains a wealth of links and other information on Barnstable > genealogy.

Hi John: Thanks so much for your reply. I've seen the family history you shared before, and this has been my problem! The MAINE FAMILIES in 1790 must be incorrect in their attribution of Thomas Bacon's father being Nathaniel of Barnstable, but I cannot find any other notation of his parentage. I've been stuck on his ancestry for many years! Thomas, Sr. was born in 1759, Jr. in 1789 and Thomas III in 1814 -- all from Gouldsboro, ME. I do so appreciate your taking the time to write, however! Suzi Larson

I am new to this list and am hoping there is someone who might be able to help me. According to the MAINE FAMILIES IN 1790, Vol. 4, my "Thomas Bacon, b. Eastham {Barnstable}, MA, 4 Sep 1759, {was the } son of Nathaniel and Apphia {Cole} Bacon (MD, 16 [1914]", etc. The problem is, I cannot find any further proof of the parentage of Thomas Bacon. His name is not among several lists of Nathaniel and Apphia's offspring that I have found. I would be so grateful if somebody could furnish me with more {or different!} information. My Thomas ended up a settler in Gouldsboro, Hancock, Maine, married Mary _______. Their son, Thomas Jr. married Hannah Simmons - or Simons - and had Thomas III, born 1814 in Gouldsboro. He was my 3rd great-grandfather. Thanks so very much! Suzi Larson

Last night someone crashed their car through the Ancient Cemetery in Barnstable and had knocked down several stones some the dated back to the 1700’s. Information came from the news early this morning. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.11/191 - Release Date: 12/2/2005

Hello List, On ebay, there is sheet music by Harlan P. Lombard. It's called Melancholy Watermelon Coon, says from 1921 The Item number is 7727901991. Hopefully a family member will snatch this up. Lora

linda <lindlep@yahoo.com> wrote: Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 Subject: Re: PRENCE'S TREE Cheramie, No, I don't have access to the book; sorry. I typed his name in Google (which is my main search engine) and got many 'places' to go to read about him. This is the site I copied from which I sent to the List. http://www.caskey-family.com/genealogy/ThomasPrence.htm You can ask your question of me, though, and I'll look around to see if I can help you find an answer. I love doing research for it's own sake, so ask away. Linda "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." --------------------------------- "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." --------------------------------- Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less

"Thomas Prence was the most distinguished of the settlers of Eastham, though not the best educated. At the time of his removal in 1645, he was holding the position of an assistant of Gove. Bradford, and had twice been chosen govenor of the infant colony-first election in 1634, and second election in 1638. He was a native of Lechlade, a parish in Gloucestershire, England, it is understood, and born about the year 1600. He came to Plymouth in the ship Fortune, in November, 1621. At the time of his removal he was residing in Duxbury. His farm at Eastham contained many acres. It was situated northwest of Town cove, in that part now include within the present town of Eastham. His house stood on the est side of teh county road, near where Mr. E. Doane's howse now [1916] stands. It is said his farm comprised teh 'richest land' in the place. The famous old pear tree planted by him while a resident, and which was blown down in 1849, stood but a few rods westward from the site of ! his house. He was a large land-owner. He owned land in what became afterwards Harwich and Truro, besides tracts at Tonset and other localities iin ht Colony. He disposed of most of his landed estate before his death. His tracts at Sauquatucket, now Brewster, which came to him by grant, on the account of haveing been a 'Purchaser or Old-Comer,' he sold to his son-in-law, Major John Freeman, in 1672. His 'half share' at Paumet, both 'purchased and unpurchased,' lying between 'Bound Brook,' at Wellfleet, and 'Eastern Harbor or Lovell's Creek,' he sold to Mr. Thomas Paine in 1670. "Mr. Pratt, in his History of Estham, says the homestead of Gov. Prence was given by will to his son-in-law, Samuel Freeman, but the statement is not supported by documentary evidence. Records show that Gov. Prence did sell to his 'beloverd son-in-law, Mr. Samuel Freeman, Jan. 12, 1671, for thirty pounds' his 'hose lot situated and being in the town of Eastham' and 'containing eighteen acres of upland, be it more or less,' boutnde 'at the northeasterly end' by a creek, together with other upland and meadows in other parts of the town. Records also show that Gov. Prence provided a place of abode for his son-in-law, Samuel Freeman and Mercy his wife, soon after thier marrigae, and that in December, 1662, it was conveyed to them. They were then residing upon it. It was the place of the governor purchased of Mr. Josiah Cook, a 'gentleman' of Eastham. The position of this house lot the writer cannot give, but undoubtedly it was near Gov. Prence's place. "Gov. Prence continued in the office of an assistant by successive elections till 1657, when he was unanimously elected to the office of governor, as successor to Gov. Bradford, who died that year. As the law required the governor to reside at the seat of government, a dispensation was obtained from him, and he was allowed to remain at Eastham, as he desired. Mrs. Bradford was engaged to entertain him and his assistants while at Court; and attendant was appointed to attend him in his journey to and from Plymouth, and Mr. Allyn of Barnstable was engaged to accommodate him and his attendant in his house with private rooms when passing 'to and from' In 1665, Gov. Prence removed to Plymouth, and occupied the place provided by the government at a place called Plain Dealing, which the late Judge John Davis, a native of Plymouth, says was 'nearly two miles from the centre of the town on the road to Boston.' The late William Russell in his Guide to Plymouth, says the place calle! d Plain Dealing 'extended it is believed to Kingston line'; and that Gov. Prence's house was near 'Mr. Hedges,' and in the vicinity of 'Starts Hill.' At this place, while occupying the gubernatorial chair, he died March 29, 1673, in his 73d year. He was 'honorably interred at Plymouth, April 8th.' Judge Davis says: 'The Plymouth church records, in expressing Mr. Prence's character and his amiable and pleasant conversation, depart from their usual course by an indication of his personal appearance, from which it may be supposed that it was peculiarly dignified and striking. He was excellently qualified for the office of governor. He had a countenance full of majesty, and therein, as well as otherwise, was a terror to evil doers. Besides holding the office of governor, Mr. Prence was a great number of years an assistant of Gov. Bradford. He was one of the commissioners of the United Colonies many years; colonial treasurer and one of the council of war. He was one of those who stood ! bound to the adventures for the payment of the sum they demanded for their interest in the stock, trade, etc., of the Colony, when the purchase was made in behalf of those who came in the three first ships, viz: Mayflower, Fortune and Ann. "Gov. Prence's will bears date March 13th, 1673, and codicil march 28th, 1683. He appointed his wife, Mary, executrix, and desired that his brother, Thomas Clark, and Mr. Josiah Winslow be her advisers. To his wife mary, he gave the profits of his part of the mill at Sauquatuckett, now West Brewster, with the land adjacent to it, which he desired at her death to go to his grandson, Theophilus Mayo, who was living with him. This, he said, he gave him for his encouragement to proceed in learning. HE also gave him all his 'books fit for him in learning. He enjoined him to 'carry it well with his grandmother,' and, in case he did so, to have a 'bed.' How dutiful he was to his aged grandparent, we have no means of knowing. He doubtless removed with her to Yarmouth. From what can now be gathered he did not survive her. His death, it is supposed, took place about 1678. He was the youngest son of Nathaniel and Hannah (Prence) Mayo, and it would seem, at the death of his father, ! was taken by the governor into his family. The governor also gave him one-half of his land and meadow near Namassakett, in Middleboro, which if he died without descendants, would be equally divided between Gov. Prence's daughters. Of his books he gave, among others, 'to Maj John Freeman, of Eastham, Speed's, Church's and Wilson's Dictionary; Simpson's History of the Church, and Newman's Concordance.' He made other bequests, but we cannot mention them all. "The inventory of the governor's estate shows he owned on the Cape, 'one fourth of the mill and land adjoining to it at Satuckett,' now West Brewster; twenty acres of land and three acres of meadow at Tonsett in Eastham, and eighteen acres on Porchy Island. Befre his death Gov. Prence disposed of most of his estate by deeds. Thomas Prence's descendants are numerous upon the Cape. Thomas Prence, the only son of the governor, died in England, leaving no sons, consequently he has no descendants of the patronymic living." - Josiah Paine, "Early Settlers of Eastham," Library of Cape Cod History and Genealogy, 33 and 34 (1916), 63 pages. "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." --------------------------------- Yahoo! Personals Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet. Lots of someones, actually. Try Yahoo! Personals

"The famous old pear tree planted by [Thomas Prence] while a resident, and which was blown down in 1849 , stood but a few rods westward from the site of his house." - Josiah Paine, "Early Settlers of Eastham," Library of Cape Cod History and Genealogy (1916) From Pratt's History, pp. 15-16 (1844): "There is a pear tree now, standing on the farm of Governor Prince, in this town, near the spot where his house stood, planted by himself, to which the following lines are addressed, by Mr. Heman Doane, a descendant of Deacon John Doane, one of his companions: Two hundred years have, on the wings of time, Passed, with their joys and woes, since thou, Old Tree! Put forth thy first leaves in this foreign clime, Transplanted from the soil beyond the sea, Whence did our pious Pilgrim Fathers come, To found an empire in this western land, Where they and theirs might find a peaceful home — A safe retreat from persecution's hand. That exiled hand long since have passed away, And still, Old Tree ! thou standest in the place Where Prince's hand did plant thee in his day— An undesigned memorial of his race And time— of those, our honored lathers, when They came from Plymouth o'er and settled here— Doane, Higgins, Snow, and other worthy men, Whose names their sons remember to revere. Full many a summer breeze and wintry blast Through those majestic boughs have waved and sighed, While centuries with their burdens by have passed, And generations have been born and died, And many a sister tree has had its birth, Performed its labors, and fulfilled its day ; And mighty kings and kingdoms of the earth Have lived and flourished, died and passed away. There didst thou stand in times of bloody strife, The youthful days of Boston's famous tree,— And when our patriot fathers sold their life To buy their country's glorious liberty! Old time has thinned thy boughs, Old Pilgrim Tree ! And bowed thee with the weight of many years, Yet, mid the frosts of age, thy bloom we see, And yearly still thy mellow fruit appears. Venerable emblem of our sires of yore ! Like them thou last performed life's labors well; And when, like them, thy days arc passed and o'er, These lines may help your lengthened stories tell. This celebrated pear tree, planted by Governor Prince, in this place, two centuries ago, and which still annually yields its delicious fruit, down to the seventh generation, is surely a fit emblem of that church which was planted by him on the same soil, and at the same time. If the rich harvests of this old tree are computed to the thousands of bushels, so from that church, we may believe, that thousands of golden sheaves have been gathered into the garner of God, as well as many of the native tribe of Indians, who lived here. 'It is especially gratifying to know, that from this church first sounded out the words of life and salvation to many natives, whose bodies now sleep in the sands of the Cape, but whose spirits have gone to God who gave them, to swell the number of the blood-washed throng.'"

I also understand that the water powered mill that Prence built also still exists. Again, does anyone know where or have a picture? Thanks, Jerry

The following poem was written by Henry Thoreau about a tree planted by Plymouth Bay Colony Governor Thomas Prence. This tree reportedly still stands. Does anyone know where or have a picture? Thanks, Jerry ‘That exiled band long since have passed away, And still, old Tree! Thou standest in the place Where Prence’s hand did plant thee in his day, -- An undersigned memorial of his race.”

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: Horton, Dill Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/0EB.2ACE/413.1.1.1 Message Board Post: I must have missed the 1782 marriage of Hannah Horton and Thomas Dill when I went throught the Wellfleet records. If so I'm very sorry! I believe the records are on fiche so I'll have to check sometime, and also look at my notes. It does seem likely that Hannah was the daughter of Nathaniel. I don't know what to suggest about Mary vs. Hannah and Thomas vs. Jabez!

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: Dill, Horton Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/0EB.2ACE/413.1.1 Message Board Post: Hi Margie, Thank you for the reply to my question - it looks like there are no other records available but the ones I've looked at, excepting, of course, that something might show up out of an attic. Oh well. As my earlier note mentioned, I made the mistake of reading "Heman Dill" for "Thomas Dill" in the Medfield MA VRs back in 1990, so I've been laboring under the "Heman" misconception until recently. I have your report on the Descendants of John Horton and there is just the one Hannah Horton, born 28 April 1761 in Eastham, daughter of Nathaniel and Eunice (Snow) Horton, as I recall. There is a marriage record for Hannah Horton and Thomas Dill in Wellfleet town records on 18 May 1782. They had children Ezekiel, Obediah, Seth, Isaiah, Jabez, Elizabeth, James, Daniel and Asa Dill. Hannah died bef Thomas m. (2) Ruth Linkhornew 14 June 1797 in Eastham, and he married (3) Susanna Hatch in Eastham in January 1813. Don't you have this Hannah Horton in your report and in your records? Do you have any other marriage record for the Hannah the daughter of Nathnaiel and Eunice Horton? Of course, my Elizabeth Dill's death record says her mother is Mary Horton...which is my problem! All the best -- Randy

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/0EB.2ACE/413.1 Message Board Post: Hi Randy, I found a reference to some old correspondence with you in the introduction to my book, "Descendants of John Horton ..." which gives a slightly different version, that Elizabeth Horton (Dill) Smith's parents were Mary (Horton) and Heman Dill. In the very early 80's I spent some time in the Eastham Town Hall basement, going through all of the records and writing down all of the Horton events. I did the same, somewhat later, in Wellfleet and Orleans. I found no Horton-Dill marriages before 1800 and no unplaced Mary or Hannah Hortons early enough to be Elizabeth's mother. I am pretty sure that there are no other records to be found from that era, unless they turn up sometime in someone's attic. I share your frustration, as I have several Eastham ancestors whose births have never been found. Good luck, Margie