I am now looking at the possibility that Maria Elizabetha Ley, wife of Johannes Ley who arrived on the Loyal Judith and settled in Pennsylvania and later Virginia was born Maria Elisabetha Lindemann chr January 19, 1730 in Obermoschel, Pfalz Germany. The main reasons are as follows: (1) the identification of Maria Elizabetha with the daughter of Johan Conrad Kumpf and Anna Maria Feuerbach seems at this point out of the question. This identification was proposed in The Loy Family in America and it was further suggested that Maria Elizaetha came over on the Samuel in 1733 and was born 1711. This would make her sixty of course when she bore Conrad in 1771. In fact Johan Conrad Kumpf and his wife had no daughter named Maria Elizabetha with them on the Samuel as the records will show and actually bore a daughter by that name in 1733 or 1734(a better year admitidely if she was to bear Conrad) but that family was at New Holland, Lancaster until about 1737 when they moved to Maryland never to return to Pennsylvania. The Kumpfs lived near and knew John George Loy but the earliest record of a Loy Kumpf marriage I have seen was after the third generation in this country. The whole Johan Conrad Kumpf, New Goshenhoppen, Johan Heinrich Ley is wrong. There was another unrelated faily of Kump at New Goshenhoppen and one of this family traveled with Johan Andreas Muhlschlagel and the Emmerts to West Virginia where the Muhslchlagels and Loys got togeter in the persons of Daniel and Christina Muhslchlagel Loy. Daniel Loy used Henry Cump as his substitute in the Revolution but the relation was through Christina and not Daniela and there was no relation at all of any of them to Johan Conrad Kumpf. It was a good hypothesis but it will not stand up. (2) The Johann Justus Lindemans had a daughter name Maria Elisabetha christened January 19, 1730 in Obermoschel Germany. She would have been 18 or 19 at the time John Loy (Johannes Ley) would have married his wife (based on a 1750 - 1771 childbearing period). (3) The Lindimans (Justus and Anna Elizabetha Imsweiler Lindiman, Maria Elizabetha's parents) were on the Loyal Judith with Johannes Ley (John Loy). (4) No marriage to anyone other than Johannes Ley nor any evidence of her later life has yet been found for Maria Elizabeth Lindemann. (5) When John Loy (Johannes Ley) moved to the Brecknock portion of the Muddy Creek Reformed Congregation (about 1750), his near neighbor (also appearing there about the same time) was (Johan) Daniel Kieffer. Kieffer's wife was Catherine Lindemann, Maria Elizabeth's sister born six years before her in 1724. (6) Out of the 9 or so Loy children who were baptised 3 were recorded (at Muddy Creek and Allegheny) as having one or more of the Kieffers as sponsors and 1 more (Daniel) was almost certainly a Kieffer sponsorship. (7) Out of 5 baptisms of Kieffer children, the first was very probably and the second was definitely a Loy sponsored baptism. The other 3 children's sponsors included Peter Kieffer, Justus Lindeman and apparently Daniel Kieffer himself. (8) The preceding two represent a fairly high degree of cross sponsorship even if you take account only of the definite sponsorships and are highly suggestive of a family relationship. Johannes Ley apparently came to the New World alone and did not intereact with the other Loys to the extent that the other Loys intereacted with each other - at least that we have any record of now. He "could" have married a sister of Daniel Kieffer who came with his father (it appears) Peter Kieffer and/or a brother Peter (still working on this) but so far there is no evidence to suggest that any sisters or other near female relative of Daniel came to America whereas it is known that several women in the Justus Lindeman family came to America. Additionally, After Catherine Lindeman Kieffer died ( Sept 1767), Anna and Maria Kieffer, the Loys' godchildren, married and left Brecknock (1769 and 1773 respectively) there remains no further evidence of communication between the Loys and Kieffers. It appears that Daniel remarried and had three further children. Daniel's two youngest children by Catherine died very young and his son Johan Peter'fate is not clear. The family apparently went on in Brecknock through the children born to his second wife. This falling away suggests the ties between the Loy and Kieffer families were through the wives as opposed to the husbands or a brother sister tie. The Kieffers and the Loys disappear from records from the time of their arrival (1741 and 1740 respectively) until they surface at Brecknock as part of the Muddy Creek Congregation in 1750. This ten year period may have been spent in Coventry Twp, Chester where Justus Lindeman had settled with his family. Justus was a weaver but doubtless also ran a farm and often young German single men arriving without much money on these shores worked to save until they could marry and start their own farm or shop. It helped if you knew the person you worked for. It already seems (Burgret's 18th century emigrants The Western Palatinate) that Daniel and Peter Kieffer may have come from near Obermoschel. I think it probable that Johannes Ley did as well, though it need not have been the same town (and perhaps they did meet on the way but a long association in the old country is the better bet.) This remains only an unproven hypothesis and will require further concrete evidence before becoming anything more. I ask that noone yet regard it as proven and that the Lindeman name not be added to a Loy chart just yet. I would appreciate any advice, further information or criticism or comments. Thanks. Grady Loy