Wikipedia has a good article on it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family It mentions the "great aunt/uncle as 'casual' usage: "When additional generations intervene (in other words, when one's collateral relatives belong to the same generation as one's grandparents or grandchildren), the prefix "grand" modifies these terms. (Although in casual usage in the USA a "grand aunt" is often referred to as a "great aunt", for instance.) And as with grandparents and grandchildren, as more generations intervene the prefix becomes "great grand", adding an additional "great" for each additional generation." Many dictionaries carry both grand aunt and great aunt as equivalent. My family has always used the "great" aunt/uncle terminology; however, all the genealogical SW I have seen also uses "Grand" aunt/uncle so I think this is the 'proper' usage...of course, we call our relatives many different things based upon culture, dialect and the like - e.g., grandmother may be granny, gramma, nan, nana, mom-mom, and a whole host of others where, nevertheless, the 'proper' version is grandmother. No offense is intended to anyone who may refer to their grandmother's sister as a great aunt (as I myself do), just trying to relay information on what seems to be the proper usage based upon a number of sources. Heck, I even was brought up to call some folks near to my family but not part of them as "aunt" or "uncle". My message was just trying to pint out the difference between the 'proper' form in a purely technical sense to the more casual or colloquial forms of the kinship...no 'over-reaching' intended. Best Regards, Mike Hitch "So oftentimes it happens that we live our lives in chains and we never even know we have the key." -Eagles _____ From: David Kearney [mailto:kearneyd@erols.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:40 PM To: mikehitch@mikehitch.com; lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LDR] Understanding Cousins: But what about aunts and uncles?? Mike Hitch wrote: >>> Yeah - we generally these days refer to our Grandparents' siblings as "Great" uncles and aunts when in reality they are properly just "Grand" uncles and aunts (as it would make sense being they are the siblings of "grand"fathers and "grand"mothers). And so, Great grand uncles and aunts are siblings to great grandfathers and mothers and so on.... <<< ____________ Mike, I think you're over-reaching a little bit in suggesting that "grand uncle/aunt" is the PROPER form over "great uncle/aunt." I might be wrong, but I think either form is perfectly acceptable, either grand uncle/aunt, or great uncle/aunt. Perhaps the form generally used in a particular part of the country is a matter of regional dialect or something. I've come to prefer (for my own use) the form, "great uncle/aunt." Although one always has to "count" the number of greats or grands, it usually doesn't throw me off that a great uncle/aunt is the brother/sister to a grandfather/grandmother (not a greatfather or greatmother), that a great-great uncle/aunt is a brother/sister to a great grandfather/grandmother, etc. Cheers! Dave K

Growing up in SW PA, we called the sisters of our grandmother great aunts. I never heard the term grand aunt (or uncle) until well into my adult years. What I have learned in the past few years is exactly what Mike's Wikipedia articles states, that the terms great aunt and grand aunt are commonly used interchangeably. I have a number of cousins who are not interested in doing the actual research, but are quite interested in what is found about the family history. As a matter of practicality, I have taken to using the term "great grand" with a brief explanation so that I say, "Our great grand uncle, brother of our great grandmother..." This makes it easy for my cousins to follow along and know where to place that great grand uncle. Whether it's proper or not, it does make sense to others. As for cousin relationships, there is a great chart at the following web site: http://www.cousincouples.com/?page=relation I printed this out a while back and have found it invaluable when asked how I fit into someone else's family. It helps to go back through the generations, too, but this chart is quite helpful in determining the cousin relationships. Mary Lou ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Hitch" <mikehitch@mikehitch.com> To: "'David Kearney'" <kearneyd@erols.com>; <lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 8:41 AM Subject: Re: [LDR] Understanding Cousins: But what about aunts and uncles?? > Wikipedia has a good article on it here: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family > It mentions the "great aunt/uncle as 'casual' usage: "When additional > generations intervene (in other words, when one's collateral relatives > belong to the same generation as one's grandparents or grandchildren), the > prefix "grand" modifies these terms. (Although in casual usage in the USA > a > "grand aunt" is often referred to as a "great aunt", for instance.) And as > with grandparents and grandchildren, as more generations intervene the > prefix becomes "great grand", adding an additional "great" for each > additional generation." Many dictionaries carry both grand aunt and great > aunt as equivalent. > > My family has always used the "great" aunt/uncle terminology; however, all > the genealogical SW I have seen also uses "Grand" aunt/uncle so I think > this > is the 'proper' usage...of course, we call our relatives many different > things based upon culture, dialect and the like - e.g., grandmother may be > granny, gramma, nan, nana, mom-mom, and a whole host of others where, > nevertheless, the 'proper' version is grandmother. No offense is intended > to > anyone who may refer to their grandmother's sister as a great aunt (as I > myself do), just trying to relay information on what seems to be the > proper > usage based upon a number of sources. Heck, I even was brought up to call > some folks near to my family but not part of them as "aunt" or "uncle". My > message was just trying to pint out the difference between the 'proper' > form > in a purely technical sense to the more casual or colloquial forms of the > kinship...no 'over-reaching' intended. > > Best Regards, > Mike Hitch > "So oftentimes it happens that we live our lives in chains and we never > even > know we have the key." -Eagles

Mike Hitch wrote: >>> Wikipedia has a good article on it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family. It mentions the "great aunt/uncle as 'casual' usage: ... No offense is intended to anyone who may refer to their grandmother's sister as a great aunt (as I myself do), just trying to relay information on what seems to be the proper usage based upon a number of sources.<<< -------------------------------- Mike, No offense taken here. From what I've seen, either form is "proper" usage -- grand uncle/aunt, or great uncle/aunt. I really think you and others who would prescribe either form as "proper usage" in genealogy might be confusing "proper usage" with (misguided) efforts to conform the terms into someone's sense of logical order. As the "Grammar Guy" indicates in the following discussion, we can rest easy using "grand" and "great" pretty interchangeably in identifying relatives, because "grand" and "great" mean the same thing, and simply come from two different langquages ... Norma French for "grand;" Anglo-Saxon for "great." Here is what the "Grammar Guy" has to say: " ... Even though it doesn't seem to be what the majority of English speakers say, grand uncle and grand aunt are used by some. "What I find very interesting is that we seem to have something going on here between Norman French and Anglo-Saxon; in other words, I see here another example of the dual vocabulary that still exists side by side between those two languages that met each other back in 1066 after the Norman invasion of England. "Just a couple of days ago, I answered a question on the Grammar Exchange (http://thegrammarexchange.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x) about the words understand and comprehend. The member wanted to know if there was any difference in meaning between the two. The only difference is that the former comes from Anglo-Saxon, while the latter comes from Latin through Norman French. The difference doesn't like in meaning; it lies in usage. "I think we've got a similar case here. Great is from Anglo-Saxon, and grand is from French, but they mean the same thing. So when we say great uncle or grand uncle, we're just reflecting one origin or the term or the other. In fact, uncle is a French word! "Now, as to logic in language, my friend, that's not always so easy to come by. I can't say it's more logical to say grand uncle since we say grandfather. All I can say is that you should continue to use the terms that are more common to hear in your own family or region." http://www.azargrammar.com/grammarGuy/2008/06/were-all-entitled-part-2.html Mike, if proper usage were to follow harsh logic, perhaps we should go to calling our grandparents our greatparents, or, alternatively, begin referring to our great-grandparents as our grand-grand parents. ;-) You can find a fun discussion of this word fight at http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.genealogy.britain/2006-06/msg00865.html, a British genealogy newsgroup site, at which you'll find a fair amount of it blaming confusion on sloppy American English, but as the Grammar Guy points out, it's probably really an Anglo-Saxon English versus Norman French English struggle. See another lively discussion at http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=790378. I'm comfortable with either or both approaches ... grand and great are both great and grand with me. I think I switch back and forth myself, maybe due to the different approaches taken by the families of my three parents. Judy Ebner wrote that she always was told that the brother of her grandfather was her "great" uncle, and that she was his "grandniece." Judy's approach -- sort of a mixture of the two approaches we're discussing -- is, in fact, the same approach my primary family history software uses in displaying family blood relationships. And, upon reflection, I think this possibly is the usage I heard most growing up. Isn't language great?!!! (or is that "grand?") Dave

Dave Kearney wrote (most paragraphs edited): "What I find very interesting is that we seem to have something going on here between Norman French and Anglo-Saxon; in other words, I see here another example of the dual vocabulary that still exists side by side between those two languages that met each other back in 1066 after the Norman invasion of England. John Lyon also wrote (some paragraphs edited): All too often. When a party is named "cousin" in a will (e.g.), it is not so much a concrete identifier as the introductory red flag to a puzzle for the reader to unravel. It may mean blood (including nephews and nieces), it may mean in-law (including in-law of in-law), and sometimes it seems to have been happily applied to some blood brother, long-standing drinking buddy or such. Now, it may be that the use can always be pegged to (actually based in) some familial relationship, but I do know that some of the instances found have no solution in determinable kinship based on surviving records. Another vague hand-waving term in the records is "kinsman", which at least has the nice feature of self-referential fuzziness, not herding the reader to leap at a specific assumption. ================================================================= I have encountered the use of the word "friends" in a 1741 Sussex will, in which the subject of the will used "friends" to chaaracterize his co-executors. Subsequent research has led to one of John's "introductory red flags".....i.e. it appears that one of the executors might be a brother, and the wife of the other executor a sister of the subject of the will. Is there precedent (or other evidence) of such usage of the word "friends" in Colonial times. If one merely accepts the current literal usage of friends, there would seem to be no necessity of having used the word in the will at all (& the use did not appear to be Colonial "flowery"....the entire will was brief and prosaic). Thus it may be reasonable to try to read some "special" meaning in to the usage in the will ??????? Comments??? Joe Lake