Joni wrote: >>> Is this John A. Wharton married to Elizabeth Freeman the son of Carpenter Wharton? I have an Amanda Wharton marry into my Smith family in 1863, and I've been trying to connect her to other Whartons. Her parents were Joshua Wharton and Elizabeth Baylis. Sure lots of Elizabeths around, weren't there?<<< _________________ Joni ~ The short answer to your question concerning whether John is the son of Carpenter Wharton is, "I don't know." John Wharton remains the earliest known (to me) ancestor in my Wharton line. He supposedly is one of four brothers in America, or the son of one of four brothers ... and THAT sounds similar to common family folklore. There certainly seem to be many Whartons/Whortons in the Delaware-Maryland area in the late 1700s and early 1800s and I remain hopeful of establishing some further family from the area. (According to later census reports including his sons' households, John Wharton was born in Delaware.) I believe he was born in about 1799, but possibly it was earlier. I unfortunately don't know of any siblings or same-generations cousins to John, but that certainly is not to say that none exist. And, yes, the Shore had far too many Elizabeths in the period ... and maybe even too many Elizabeth Freemans, it seems. I (think I) know a little more about my ancestor Elizabeth Freeman. I believe she was born in about 1802, and that her parents were William Freeman and Ann Powell, although I don't consider this relationship to be absolutely certain. Can you tell me any more about Carpenter and Amanda Wharton? Thanks! Dave

Listers.... Is this Laurel-Concord Road the same road known as "Stagecoach Road"? ----- Original Message ----- From: <ImNetz@aol.com> To: <lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 3:17 PM Subject: Re: [LDR] Laurel-Concord Road and William MARVEL > Joni, > > This particular William MARVEL in Broad Creek Hundred was born between > 1784-1794 according to the 1810 census and was the son of Thomas MARVEL. > This is > the Thomas MARVEL, of Thomas, who was married to Nancy KNOWLES and Nancy > was > probably William's mother, but I have no real proof of that. One of the > proofs that this William was the son of Thomas is that he is described as > such on > 28 March 1842 in Sussex Deed AAB 50, f357, when he buys land from Joseph > WARD. > > Both William MARVEL and his father, Thomas, are on the jury at the > Coroner's > inquest of 5 year old Miranda Messick in 1822 and you can see both their > signatures on the scans of that on the Delaware Archives website. Luckily > for > me, Thomas MARVEL had a rather distinctive signature. Helps me keep all > the > Thomas Marvels sorted. > > I have not researched the family of Robert MARVEL and Mary SMITH, but > William MARVEL of Broad Creek Hundred, also known as Big Billy, was > definitely not > their child. There is another William MARVEL, married to Rachel who dies > around the same time and many have confused the 2 Williams. The other > William > lived closer to Georgetown and was the son of Phillip MARVEL. All I know > about > the William MARVEL who was born in 1803 is what I have seen in various > internet > files and there seems to be differing opinions about where he should be > attached. It looks like he moved out west and did not stay in Sussex. > > Nanette > > > In a message dated 2/7/2009 5:17:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > lower-delmarva-roots-request@rootsweb.com writes: > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 12:08:25 -0700 > From: "Joni Rabena" <joni@mcburney.ca> > Subject: Re: [LDR] Laurel-Concord Road and mention of John GRACE > To: <lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <6767B05DF22C45329A84BF45E45DC3E6@jonip4> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > Hi, > > I'm wondering if William Marvel's parents were Robert Marvel II and Mary > Smith? I have him born in 1803 so I think it must be another William > Marvel, but from what part of the family? > > Thanks, > > Joni > Calgary, AB > > > -----Original Message----- > From: lower-delmarva-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:lower-delmarva-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > ImNetz@aol.com > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 12:57 PM > To: lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com > Subject: [LDR] Laurel-Concord Road and mention of John GRACE > > Hello JoAnn, > > I don't know that much about John GRACE, except that he owned land near > the > Marvels in Broad Creek Hundred. This GRACE family appears on various > websites if you Google, including these 2. > > _http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tmcgowin/grace.htm_ > (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tmcgowin/grace.htm) > > _http://vidas.rootsweb.ancestry.com/grace.html_ > (http://vidas.rootsweb.ancestry.com/grace.html) > > John GRACE did write a will on 12 May 1799 that mentions a wife, Sarah, 2 > sons --Thomas and John and 2 daughters-- Nancy and Polly. Polly was > married > to Jonathan MARTINO/MARTINEAU, the EX of John GRACE. The William MARVEL I > am > researching, buys 12 acres of land in 1815 from Nancy DIXON who inherited > it > from her father, John GRACE in 1802 (Sussex Deed AJ f173) and it borders > William Marvel's land. > > > But how a Samuel GRACE fits in, I cannot say. I would like to know more > about the younger John GRACE myself as he has a daughter named Sally and > William MARVEL was married to a Sarah/Sally and I do not know who her > parents were. > > I do have this GRACE reference from William MARVEL's 1847 will. I found > it > interesting that the name GRACE was still being used in 1847. John > GRACE'S > son, Thomas, moved to Georgia. Maybe John GRACE, Jr. continued the > family > business? I know he was alive in 1803 as he sells land to Jonathan > MARTINO > (Sussex Deed Y f332) and he is listed on the 1803 Broad Creek Hundred > tax > list owning > 145 acres of land. > > "Item To my grandson William W. Cooper I give and devise on undivided > half > part of minority of that portion of my farm in Broadcreek Hundred > formerly > in the possession of Jonathan Martineau which is situated on the eastern > side of the road leading from GRACE's Mills dam to Thomas Short's house > adjoining lands of Thomas Short, Cyprus Ward and others containing in > the > whole about one hundred and sixty acres to him and his heirs and assigns > forever; and the other undivided half part or mority of the said > portion > of the said last mentioned farm I give and devise to my grandson William > W. > Cooper to him and his heirs in ...?... nevertheless for the uses and > purposes following to wit. in trust to receive and pay only to my > daughter > Julia Ann Hasty the rents, issues and profits thereof during her natural > life for her sole and separate use, behoof, and benefit and free from the > control of her husband or his debts or liabilities and her separate > receipt > to be a sufficient acquittance and discharge therefor and at her death in > trust to convey the same to the child or children of my said daughter > Julia > Ann as may then be living in fee simple and if my said daughter should > have > no issue living at the time of her death then in trust for his own use > to > him and his heirs and assigns forever." > > Hope this helps at least a little, > > Nanette > > > > **************Nothing says I love you like flowers! Find a florist near > you > now. > (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=florist&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000001) > *************************************** > QUESTIONS about POSTING GUIDELINES, SUBSCRIBING or UNSUBSCRIBING? > Visit The Lower DelMarVa Roots Mailing List FAQ: > http://www.tyaskin.com/handley/ldrfaq.htm > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOWER-DELMARVA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1939 - Release Date: 02/07/09 13:39:00

Joni, This particular William MARVEL in Broad Creek Hundred was born between 1784-1794 according to the 1810 census and was the son of Thomas MARVEL. This is the Thomas MARVEL, of Thomas, who was married to Nancy KNOWLES and Nancy was probably William's mother, but I have no real proof of that. One of the proofs that this William was the son of Thomas is that he is described as such on 28 March 1842 in Sussex Deed AAB 50, f357, when he buys land from Joseph WARD. Both William MARVEL and his father, Thomas, are on the jury at the Coroner's inquest of 5 year old Miranda Messick in 1822 and you can see both their signatures on the scans of that on the Delaware Archives website. Luckily for me, Thomas MARVEL had a rather distinctive signature. Helps me keep all the Thomas Marvels sorted. I have not researched the family of Robert MARVEL and Mary SMITH, but William MARVEL of Broad Creek Hundred, also known as Big Billy, was definitely not their child. There is another William MARVEL, married to Rachel who dies around the same time and many have confused the 2 Williams. The other William lived closer to Georgetown and was the son of Phillip MARVEL. All I know about the William MARVEL who was born in 1803 is what I have seen in various internet files and there seems to be differing opinions about where he should be attached. It looks like he moved out west and did not stay in Sussex. Nanette In a message dated 2/7/2009 5:17:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, lower-delmarva-roots-request@rootsweb.com writes: Message: 8 Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 12:08:25 -0700 From: "Joni Rabena" <joni@mcburney.ca> Subject: Re: [LDR] Laurel-Concord Road and mention of John GRACE To: <lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <6767B05DF22C45329A84BF45E45DC3E6@jonip4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, I'm wondering if William Marvel's parents were Robert Marvel II and Mary Smith? I have him born in 1803 so I think it must be another William Marvel, but from what part of the family? Thanks, Joni Calgary, AB -----Original Message----- From: lower-delmarva-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lower-delmarva-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of ImNetz@aol.com Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 12:57 PM To: lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com Subject: [LDR] Laurel-Concord Road and mention of John GRACE Hello JoAnn, I don't know that much about John GRACE, except that he owned land near the Marvels in Broad Creek Hundred. This GRACE family appears on various websites if you Google, including these 2. _http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tmcgowin/grace.htm_ (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tmcgowin/grace.htm) _http://vidas.rootsweb.ancestry.com/grace.html_ (http://vidas.rootsweb.ancestry.com/grace.html) John GRACE did write a will on 12 May 1799 that mentions a wife, Sarah, 2 sons --Thomas and John and 2 daughters-- Nancy and Polly. Polly was married to Jonathan MARTINO/MARTINEAU, the EX of John GRACE. The William MARVEL I am researching, buys 12 acres of land in 1815 from Nancy DIXON who inherited it from her father, John GRACE in 1802 (Sussex Deed AJ f173) and it borders William Marvel's land. But how a Samuel GRACE fits in, I cannot say. I would like to know more about the younger John GRACE myself as he has a daughter named Sally and William MARVEL was married to a Sarah/Sally and I do not know who her parents were. I do have this GRACE reference from William MARVEL's 1847 will. I found it interesting that the name GRACE was still being used in 1847. John GRACE'S son, Thomas, moved to Georgia. Maybe John GRACE, Jr. continued the family business? I know he was alive in 1803 as he sells land to Jonathan MARTINO (Sussex Deed Y f332) and he is listed on the 1803 Broad Creek Hundred tax list owning 145 acres of land. "Item To my grandson William W. Cooper I give and devise on undivided half part of minority of that portion of my farm in Broadcreek Hundred formerly in the possession of Jonathan Martineau which is situated on the eastern side of the road leading from GRACE's Mills dam to Thomas Short's house adjoining lands of Thomas Short, Cyprus Ward and others containing in the whole about one hundred and sixty acres to him and his heirs and assigns forever; and the other undivided half part or mority of the said portion of the said last mentioned farm I give and devise to my grandson William W. Cooper to him and his heirs in ...?... nevertheless for the uses and purposes following to wit. in trust to receive and pay only to my daughter Julia Ann Hasty the rents, issues and profits thereof during her natural life for her sole and separate use, behoof, and benefit and free from the control of her husband or his debts or liabilities and her separate receipt to be a sufficient acquittance and discharge therefor and at her death in trust to convey the same to the child or children of my said daughter Julia Ann as may then be living in fee simple and if my said daughter should have no issue living at the time of her death then in trust for his own use to him and his heirs and assigns forever." Hope this helps at least a little, Nanette **************Nothing says I love you like flowers! Find a florist near you now. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=florist&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000001)

Well, after searching for some more records I found the will of Robert Marvel II on-line so that is great. I'm sure these Marvels were attached somehow. I have a Patience Marvel married to a Brown, but also someone else had her married to a Mr. Knowles. I also have a bunch of Messicks in my Tree. Oh, there are so many! My main search, however, is the John Smith and Amelia Trader family. They are my 3rd great grandparents. Thanks again for the info, Nanette. Joni -----Original Message----- From: lower-delmarva-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lower-delmarva-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of ImNetz@aol.com Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 1:18 PM To: lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LDR] Laurel-Concord Road and William MARVEL Joni, This particular William MARVEL in Broad Creek Hundred was born between 1784-1794 according to the 1810 census and was the son of Thomas MARVEL. This is the Thomas MARVEL, of Thomas, who was married to Nancy KNOWLES and Nancy was probably William's mother, but I have no real proof of that. One of the proofs that this William was the son of Thomas is that he is described as such on 28 March 1842 in Sussex Deed AAB 50, f357, when he buys land from Joseph WARD. Both William MARVEL and his father, Thomas, are on the jury at the Coroner's inquest of 5 year old Miranda Messick in 1822 and you can see both their signatures on the scans of that on the Delaware Archives website. Luckily for me, Thomas MARVEL had a rather distinctive signature. Helps me keep all the Thomas Marvels sorted. I have not researched the family of Robert MARVEL and Mary SMITH, but William MARVEL of Broad Creek Hundred, also known as Big Billy, was definitely not their child. There is another William MARVEL, married to Rachel who dies around the same time and many have confused the 2 Williams. The other William lived closer to Georgetown and was the son of Phillip MARVEL. All I know about the William MARVEL who was born in 1803 is what I have seen in various internet files and there seems to be differing opinions about where he should be attached. It looks like he moved out west and did not stay in Sussex. Nanette In a message dated 2/7/2009 5:17:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, lower-delmarva-roots-request@rootsweb.com writes: Message: 8 Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 12:08:25 -0700 From: "Joni Rabena" <joni@mcburney.ca> Subject: Re: [LDR] Laurel-Concord Road and mention of John GRACE To: <lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <6767B05DF22C45329A84BF45E45DC3E6@jonip4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, I'm wondering if William Marvel's parents were Robert Marvel II and Mary Smith? I have him born in 1803 so I think it must be another William Marvel, but from what part of the family? Thanks, Joni Calgary, AB -----Original Message----- From: lower-delmarva-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lower-delmarva-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of ImNetz@aol.com Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 12:57 PM To: lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com Subject: [LDR] Laurel-Concord Road and mention of John GRACE Hello JoAnn, I don't know that much about John GRACE, except that he owned land near the Marvels in Broad Creek Hundred. This GRACE family appears on various websites if you Google, including these 2. _http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tmcgowin/grace.htm_ (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tmcgowin/grace.htm) _http://vidas.rootsweb.ancestry.com/grace.html_ (http://vidas.rootsweb.ancestry.com/grace.html) John GRACE did write a will on 12 May 1799 that mentions a wife, Sarah, 2 sons --Thomas and John and 2 daughters-- Nancy and Polly. Polly was married to Jonathan MARTINO/MARTINEAU, the EX of John GRACE. The William MARVEL I am researching, buys 12 acres of land in 1815 from Nancy DIXON who inherited it from her father, John GRACE in 1802 (Sussex Deed AJ f173) and it borders William Marvel's land. But how a Samuel GRACE fits in, I cannot say. I would like to know more about the younger John GRACE myself as he has a daughter named Sally and William MARVEL was married to a Sarah/Sally and I do not know who her parents were. I do have this GRACE reference from William MARVEL's 1847 will. I found it interesting that the name GRACE was still being used in 1847. John GRACE'S son, Thomas, moved to Georgia. Maybe John GRACE, Jr. continued the family business? I know he was alive in 1803 as he sells land to Jonathan MARTINO (Sussex Deed Y f332) and he is listed on the 1803 Broad Creek Hundred tax list owning 145 acres of land. "Item To my grandson William W. Cooper I give and devise on undivided half part of minority of that portion of my farm in Broadcreek Hundred formerly in the possession of Jonathan Martineau which is situated on the eastern side of the road leading from GRACE's Mills dam to Thomas Short's house adjoining lands of Thomas Short, Cyprus Ward and others containing in the whole about one hundred and sixty acres to him and his heirs and assigns forever; and the other undivided half part or mority of the said portion of the said last mentioned farm I give and devise to my grandson William W. Cooper to him and his heirs in ...?... nevertheless for the uses and purposes following to wit. in trust to receive and pay only to my daughter Julia Ann Hasty the rents, issues and profits thereof during her natural life for her sole and separate use, behoof, and benefit and free from the control of her husband or his debts or liabilities and her separate receipt to be a sufficient acquittance and discharge therefor and at her death in trust to convey the same to the child or children of my said daughter Julia Ann as may then be living in fee simple and if my said daughter should have no issue living at the time of her death then in trust for his own use to him and his heirs and assigns forever." Hope this helps at least a little, Nanette **************Nothing says I love you like flowers! Find a florist near you now. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=florist&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000001) *************************************** QUESTIONS about POSTING GUIDELINES, SUBSCRIBING or UNSUBSCRIBING? Visit The Lower DelMarVa Roots Mailing List FAQ: http://www.tyaskin.com/handley/ldrfaq.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOWER-DELMARVA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dave, Is this John A. Wharton married to Elizabeth Freeman the son of Carpenter Wharton? I have an Amanda Wharton marry into my Smith family in 1863, and I've been trying to connect her to other Whartons. Her parents were Joshua Wharton and Elizabeth Baylis. Sure lots of Elizabeths around, weren't there? Thanks, Joni Calgary, AB -----Original Message----- From: lower-delmarva-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lower-delmarva-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Dave & Jane Kearney Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:56 AM To: westresort@roadrunner.com; lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LDR] Kendle West and the Whartons and Freemans Walt writes: >>>In reading the will of Kendle West (d1822), my 4th great grandfather, ... <<< __________________ Walt, Please see my recent LDR post/transcription of the 1820 marriage bond that Kindle West entered with John A. Whorton [Wharton], for the marriage of John A. Whorton and Elazebeth [presumably Elizabeth] Freeman. John and Kindle are listed as being "of Sussix County and [the] state of Delaware." Do you think this Kindle West could be your Kendle West? If so, do you know if he entered bonds like this as a regular matter, perhaps because of his business or his position in the community? Or, does his appearance in the bond more likely suggest a more personal relationship of community, friendship, or family? John A. Wharton and Elizabeth Freeman are my ggg-grandparents, and the bond appears to reflect their pending marriage. Dave K *************************************** QUESTIONS about POSTING GUIDELINES, SUBSCRIBING or UNSUBSCRIBING? Visit The Lower DelMarVa Roots Mailing List FAQ: http://www.tyaskin.com/handley/ldrfaq.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOWER-DELMARVA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks, Nanette, I'll have to sort through all of this information, but it all helps. Are you doing any early Smith work in LDR? Joni -----Original Message----- From: lower-delmarva-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lower-delmarva-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of ImNetz@aol.com Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 1:18 PM To: lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LDR] Laurel-Concord Road and William MARVEL Joni, This particular William MARVEL in Broad Creek Hundred was born between 1784-1794 according to the 1810 census and was the son of Thomas MARVEL. This is the Thomas MARVEL, of Thomas, who was married to Nancy KNOWLES and Nancy was probably William's mother, but I have no real proof of that. One of the proofs that this William was the son of Thomas is that he is described as such on 28 March 1842 in Sussex Deed AAB 50, f357, when he buys land from Joseph WARD. Both William MARVEL and his father, Thomas, are on the jury at the Coroner's inquest of 5 year old Miranda Messick in 1822 and you can see both their signatures on the scans of that on the Delaware Archives website. Luckily for me, Thomas MARVEL had a rather distinctive signature. Helps me keep all the Thomas Marvels sorted. I have not researched the family of Robert MARVEL and Mary SMITH, but William MARVEL of Broad Creek Hundred, also known as Big Billy, was definitely not their child. There is another William MARVEL, married to Rachel who dies around the same time and many have confused the 2 Williams. The other William lived closer to Georgetown and was the son of Phillip MARVEL. All I know about the William MARVEL who was born in 1803 is what I have seen in various internet files and there seems to be differing opinions about where he should be attached. It looks like he moved out west and did not stay in Sussex. Nanette In a message dated 2/7/2009 5:17:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, lower-delmarva-roots-request@rootsweb.com writes: Message: 8 Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 12:08:25 -0700 From: "Joni Rabena" <joni@mcburney.ca> Subject: Re: [LDR] Laurel-Concord Road and mention of John GRACE To: <lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <6767B05DF22C45329A84BF45E45DC3E6@jonip4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, I'm wondering if William Marvel's parents were Robert Marvel II and Mary Smith? I have him born in 1803 so I think it must be another William Marvel, but from what part of the family? Thanks, Joni Calgary, AB -----Original Message----- From: lower-delmarva-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lower-delmarva-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of ImNetz@aol.com Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 12:57 PM To: lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com Subject: [LDR] Laurel-Concord Road and mention of John GRACE Hello JoAnn, I don't know that much about John GRACE, except that he owned land near the Marvels in Broad Creek Hundred. This GRACE family appears on various websites if you Google, including these 2. _http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tmcgowin/grace.htm_ (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tmcgowin/grace.htm) _http://vidas.rootsweb.ancestry.com/grace.html_ (http://vidas.rootsweb.ancestry.com/grace.html) John GRACE did write a will on 12 May 1799 that mentions a wife, Sarah, 2 sons --Thomas and John and 2 daughters-- Nancy and Polly. Polly was married to Jonathan MARTINO/MARTINEAU, the EX of John GRACE. The William MARVEL I am researching, buys 12 acres of land in 1815 from Nancy DIXON who inherited it from her father, John GRACE in 1802 (Sussex Deed AJ f173) and it borders William Marvel's land. But how a Samuel GRACE fits in, I cannot say. I would like to know more about the younger John GRACE myself as he has a daughter named Sally and William MARVEL was married to a Sarah/Sally and I do not know who her parents were. I do have this GRACE reference from William MARVEL's 1847 will. I found it interesting that the name GRACE was still being used in 1847. John GRACE'S son, Thomas, moved to Georgia. Maybe John GRACE, Jr. continued the family business? I know he was alive in 1803 as he sells land to Jonathan MARTINO (Sussex Deed Y f332) and he is listed on the 1803 Broad Creek Hundred tax list owning 145 acres of land. "Item To my grandson William W. Cooper I give and devise on undivided half part of minority of that portion of my farm in Broadcreek Hundred formerly in the possession of Jonathan Martineau which is situated on the eastern side of the road leading from GRACE's Mills dam to Thomas Short's house adjoining lands of Thomas Short, Cyprus Ward and others containing in the whole about one hundred and sixty acres to him and his heirs and assigns forever; and the other undivided half part or mority of the said portion of the said last mentioned farm I give and devise to my grandson William W. Cooper to him and his heirs in ...?... nevertheless for the uses and purposes following to wit. in trust to receive and pay only to my daughter Julia Ann Hasty the rents, issues and profits thereof during her natural life for her sole and separate use, behoof, and benefit and free from the control of her husband or his debts or liabilities and her separate receipt to be a sufficient acquittance and discharge therefor and at her death in trust to convey the same to the child or children of my said daughter Julia Ann as may then be living in fee simple and if my said daughter should have no issue living at the time of her death then in trust for his own use to him and his heirs and assigns forever." Hope this helps at least a little, Nanette **************Nothing says I love you like flowers! Find a florist near you now. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=florist&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000001) *************************************** QUESTIONS about POSTING GUIDELINES, SUBSCRIBING or UNSUBSCRIBING? Visit The Lower DelMarVa Roots Mailing List FAQ: http://www.tyaskin.com/handley/ldrfaq.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOWER-DELMARVA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

John Lyon wrote: >>> But as the author said at the outset, script interpretation is a lifetime of learning. <<< _______________ "Well, when you have looked at wills and deeds as many times as you have looked at the moon, you would know what the words say and what they mean." John, that sentence from the article reminds me of you! :-) I think the author provides good insights and suggestions, but I have to admit that I not infrequently find the handwriting in "ancient documents" to be painfully indecipherable. (Well, I also find my own handwriting indecipherable at times!) Dave K Dave K

I read it too, and all the way through! The handwritten chart of examples was particularly interesting....I have one of those relatives with a middle initial that gets mis-read. JoAnn JoAnn Glenn-Lewin Researching: Glenn, Grace, Jones, West, Grimstone, Burgien, Harry, Baldwin, Milhous, Nearey, McLaughlin, Douge "What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others." -Pericles

Well, no.? But as the author said at the outset, script interpretation is a lifetime of learning.? My own favorite, as it were, which she failed to mention, is the cup-on-hook "8". The top circle on our modern "8" was not closed, and the?symbol appeared like a little cup hanging on a rack. This is easily confused with a "6".? Other scribes made "lazy 8s", with the circles almost side-by-side, much like what we know now as the representation of "infinity'. John > Dave, I beginning to think you and I are the only ones who read the article. ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com

Jean ~ Ha, I think you're right! Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Schroeder To: lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [LDR] Old abbreviations and their [sometimes difficulttodetermine] meanings Dave, I beginning to think you and I are the only ones who read the article. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave & Jane Kearney" <kearneyd@erols.com> To: <lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 12:11 AM Subject: Re: [LDR] Old abbreviations and their [sometimes difficult todetermine] meanings >I enjoyed Dorothee Hughes Carousso's article, "Colonial Handwriting Hazards >and Hints," which can be found in the Pennsylvania Genealogical Magazine, >vol. 30, no. 4 (1978) at p. 227 et seq. You hopefully can find the magazine >and article available for reading on-line on google books at >http://books.google.com/books?id=BcJ1jgnNp6sC&pg=PA235&lpg=PA235&dq=%2B%22colonial+abbreviations%22&source=bl&ots=eiXz79KEp-&sig=xxTFDUpjTr2_ZvDIvd0GdI099FY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA227,M1, > > Carousso even addresses colonial abbreviations on pages 235 & 236. > > (As for those apparently out of place, odd, weird, and often seemingly > indecipherable names, numbers, figures, dates, places, words, and letters, > and so forth, I try not to toss them out the window too quickly. Sometimes > some of them mean something. And I have fun trying to figure them out in > any event.) > > Dave K > *************************************** > QUESTIONS about POSTING GUIDELINES, SUBSCRIBING or UNSUBSCRIBING? > Visit The Lower DelMarVa Roots Mailing List FAQ: > http://www.tyaskin.com/handley/ldrfaq.htm > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOWER-DELMARVA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message *************************************** QUESTIONS about POSTING GUIDELINES, SUBSCRIBING or UNSUBSCRIBING? Visit The Lower DelMarVa Roots Mailing List FAQ: http://www.tyaskin.com/handley/ldrfaq.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOWER-DELMARVA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dave, I beginning to think you and I are the only ones who read the article. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave & Jane Kearney" <kearneyd@erols.com> To: <lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 12:11 AM Subject: Re: [LDR] Old abbreviations and their [sometimes difficult todetermine] meanings >I enjoyed Dorothee Hughes Carousso's article, "Colonial Handwriting Hazards >and Hints," which can be found in the Pennsylvania Genealogical Magazine, >vol. 30, no. 4 (1978) at p. 227 et seq. You hopefully can find the magazine >and article available for reading on-line on google books at >http://books.google.com/books?id=BcJ1jgnNp6sC&pg=PA235&lpg=PA235&dq=%2B%22colonial+abbreviations%22&source=bl&ots=eiXz79KEp-&sig=xxTFDUpjTr2_ZvDIvd0GdI099FY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA227,M1, > > Carousso even addresses colonial abbreviations on pages 235 & 236. > > (As for those apparently out of place, odd, weird, and often seemingly > indecipherable names, numbers, figures, dates, places, words, and letters, > and so forth, I try not to toss them out the window too quickly. Sometimes > some of them mean something. And I have fun trying to figure them out in > any event.) > > Dave K > *************************************** > QUESTIONS about POSTING GUIDELINES, SUBSCRIBING or UNSUBSCRIBING? > Visit The Lower DelMarVa Roots Mailing List FAQ: > http://www.tyaskin.com/handley/ldrfaq.htm > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOWER-DELMARVA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Everyone, I always enjoy these threads, always new anecdotes out there. I just want to make a couple of quick points that I hope weren't made before as I skimmed some of the posts. First the deed writing that appears to have excessive terms/words in it that the reader (Jean?) said had been seen many times (and inserted below) was, I believe, probably just the accepted legal boilerplate, generated by the lawyers involved, not by the court clerks out for a quid. There was the equivalent of "fill in the blanks" legal forms back then. If you look at Virginia land patents before 1750 or so, they all have pretty much the exact same language in the beginning and at the end,and amongst the descriptions, including that bit about Kent England, that has been misinterpreted to indicate the grantees' location in England in a couple of my own biggest errors handed down (in one case by a big time NY city genealogy research firm in the 1950s). This was just their boilerplate, with the year, the name of the king changed, but basically the same....Lots of words. Lawyers haven't changed much at all to this date (except in 1600s VA, I think per capita there were probably alot more civil suits -- hard to believe isn't it), except now the regular consumer can buy such boiler plate for personal legal matters in a handy software package (wills, divorces, etc.) and fill in the blanks for their cases, and file without review by a lawyer at their own peril. Thus said, I'm not sure who benefitted back then financially from the volume of words, except maybe the court clerks, or lawyer's assistant (possibly someone reading the law), And if so, more power to them -- piece work deemed necessary by their bosses. Second, from a Davidson County TN microfilm I ran across at DAR in Washington DC I found the 1840s will of my 4g grandfather William Haley -- from the court record version, and I thought nothing about it not being "the will". In 2003 I spent 2 days at the Mormon Library in Salt Lake (about 20 hours), and in collecting other Davidson Co. info, I ran across a different version in microfilm of loose papers -- what I think was probably, based on the really messy handwriting, William Haley's personal writing of his will that the court clerk copied. It has the original signatures of the witnesses and his own I assume -- none of which look like the clerk's work. In addition, there are a number of differences where it appears that the clerk "corrected" or edited awkward language, I believe he misinterpreted the number of horses he said he had roaming his land by about 5 (what I think is a 3 in the original is written in court book as an 8), etc. Also in what I feel is his original he gives proceeds from a very messy, yet-to-be-completed probate of the estate for his father in Richmond Co NC to his daughters "them that married Choat and Miles", and tells them to go to Missouri (and spend the proceeds only for that purpose). The clerk copied it as "daughters Choat and Miles", which I think is not as clear as the original, especially with the Robertson Co. TN early marriage books gone. Regarding the number of horses, that could actually be the kind of thing that became a big deal if the children, many of whom he didn't even name, decided to make it so. Anyway, just thought I'd add my two cents worth. Best Regards, Janet Hunter In a message dated 2/7/2009 1:01:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jfstms@bellsouth.net writes: An example in writing a deed he " would never record a simple agreement to 'sell' a property. According to the scribe, the seller of the property "hath given granted bargained sold released & confirmed and by these presents doth give grant bargain sell release and confirm." I have seen this dozens of times. **************Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000003)

Nope ! I read (most of) it. The first several pages seemed to be sorta' boiler plate, but then she "got down to business". The chart in the middle of the article should be useful to all. Joe Lake > Dave, I beginning to think you and I are the only ones who read the article. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave & Jane Kearney" <kearneyd@erols.com> > To: <lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 12:11 AM > Subject: Re: [LDR] Old abbreviations and their [sometimes difficult > todetermine] meanings > > >>I enjoyed Dorothee Hughes Carousso's article, "Colonial Handwriting Hazards >>and Hints," which can be found in the Pennsylvania Genealogical Magazine, >>vol. 30, no. 4 (1978) at p. 227 et seq. You hopefully can find the magazine >>and article available for reading on-line on google books at >>http://books.google.com/books?id=BcJ1jgnNp6sC&pg=PA235&lpg=PA235&dq=%2B%22colonial+abbreviations%22&source=bl&ots=eiXz79KEp-&sig=xxTFDUpjTr2_ZvDIvd0GdI099FY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA227,M1, >> >> Carousso even addresses colonial abbreviations on pages 235 & 236. >> >> (As for those apparently out of place, odd, weird, and often seemingly >> indecipherable names, numbers, figures, dates, places, words, and letters, >> and so forth, I try not to toss them out the window too quickly. Sometimes >> some of them mean something. And I have fun trying to figure them out in >> any event.) >> >> Dave K >> *************************************** >> QUESTIONS about POSTING GUIDELINES, SUBSCRIBING or UNSUBSCRIBING? >> Visit The Lower DelMarVa Roots Mailing List FAQ: >> http://www.tyaskin.com/handley/ldrfaq.htm >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> LOWER-DELMARVA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > *************************************** > QUESTIONS about POSTING GUIDELINES, SUBSCRIBING or UNSUBSCRIBING? > Visit The Lower DelMarVa Roots Mailing List FAQ: > http://www.tyaskin.com/handley/ldrfaq.htm > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOWER-DELMARVA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

From: Dave Kearney <kearneyd@erols.com> Jay wrote: >>> ... bad land descriptions are a nightmare and what lawsuits are ade of. ... Proverbs 22:28 <<< _______________ >Under some circumstances, particularly given enough time, I would think that ome anicent "written mistakes" could themselves become in a sense the ancient andmarks that "our fathers" have placed, inadvertantly. For instance, a land oundary misconstrued on the ground for years, in some settings, depending on he application of law, etc. might become the "real" boundary at some point, at east with respect to private parties. __________________________________________ I have several examples of precisely this. A clerical error from an original surveyor submission in the 1600s was sometimes repeated in the 1700s, overlooking the correctly-construed boundaries of neighbors. Later surveyors continued to crib from the mistake. Modern boundaries (seen on tax maps) perpetuate the situation. In some such cases led to vacancies – even now unrecognized and never patented, where no one has had occasion to conduct a resurvey. Other imprecisions in ancient surveys have left little strips or other odd holes unclaimed, though I doubt the owners are aware of the inaccuracies. A few acres here and there add up. The Maryland land records are often so confused that resolving these little problems does require endless legal bickering. Note who profits (again). It ain't the blameless citizen. John ________ ________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com

From: Schroeder jfstms@bellsouth.net Jay, I have no problem with describing where the property is located.  I was talking about the excessive use of words to describe something simple.  Here is the quote from the referenced article: "he never used one word if he could stretch out the synonyms to twenty."   An example in writing a deed he " would never record a simple agreement to 'sell' a property.  According to the scribe, the seller of the property "hath given granted bargained sold released & confirmed and by these presents doth give grant bargain sell release and confirm."  I have seen this dozens of times. Jean ___________________________________ Yes, or thousands. The patents and deeds represent two different forms of boilerplate, each with its own set of boilerplater rules leading to guaranteed lifetime employment for clerks and other bureaucrats – and the lawyers. The irritant in the ancient land records is how little effort and how insubstantial the requirement was in an indiscriminate metes and bounds system to describe *where* the land was, and how much *was* devoted to repeating the endless blather of formulaic construction that never varied from instrument to instrument – or rather varied only a little each decade. Some patents, for example, might describe a starting tree "near" a River, then proceed to define 150 courses which perambulate across the landscape around obviously existing properties, but never mention whose or what, or anything else .. It makes for enormous trouble in trying to solve both placement questions and the reconstruction of the neighborhood. Yet that same patent will include a full page or two of perfectly repetitive description of the legal basis – identical, word-for-word to all patents in the period. The actual useful data in an average deed or patent which yields "meaning" may be less (even much less) than 10% of the verbiage. Full transcriptions of these things are just work for the idle, who – I know from my correspondence – often get confused, imagining thing such as that their ancestor got his land directly from the Lord Baltimore, who is – after all – named prominently and often in the boilerplate. The less inspirational truth – Joe bought rights to land from the Land Office or a private party on a given date which was laid out for him in this place on another date, and he got his patent on it sometime later – is in a few sentences and the course descriptions. John ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com

Thanks for the link, Dave. The article is interesting . . . paid by the word . . . that explains a lot. I have often wondered why it took a paragraph to say someone sold land to someone else. Jean -------------- Original message from "Dave & Jane Kearney" <kearneyd@erols.com>: -------------- I enjoyed Dorothee Hughes Carousso's article, "Colonial Handwriting Hazards and Hints," which can be found in the Pennsylvania Genealogical Magazine, vol. 30, no. 4 (1978) at p. 227 et seq. You hopefully can find the magazine and article available for reading on-line on google books at http://books.google.com/books?id=BcJ1jgnNp6sC&pg=PA235&lpg=PA235&dq=%2B%22coloni al+abbreviations%22&source=bl&ots=eiXz79KEp-&sig=xxTFDUpjTr2_ZvDIvd0GdI099FY&hl= > en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA227,M1, > > Carousso even addresses colonial abbreviations on pages 235 & 236. > (As for those apparently out of place, odd, weird, and often seemingly indecipherable names, numbers, figures, dates, places, words, and letters, and so forth, I try not to toss them out the window too quickly. Sometimes some of > them mean something. And I have fun trying to figure them out in any event.) > > Dave K > *************************************** > QUESTIONS about POSTING GUIDELINES, SUBSCRIBING or UNSUBSCRIBING? > Visit The Lower DelMarVa Roots Mailing List FAQ: > http://www.tyaskin.com/handley/ldrfaq.htm > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOWER-DELMARVA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The clerks had to cover all the contingencies, in the desperate hope of avoiding future legal problems (frequently caused by disagreement among heirs). It must have been really difficult when depending so much on trees that could be removed. Elizabeth **************Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1217883258x1201191827/aol?redir=http://ad.doubleclick. net/clk;211531132;33070124;e)

Walt writes: >>>In reading the will of Kendle West (d1822), my 4th great grandfather, ... <<< __________________ Walt, Please see my recent LDR post/transcription of the 1820 marriage bond that Kindle West entered with John A. Whorton [Wharton], for the marriage of John A. Whorton and Elazebeth [presumably Elizabeth] Freeman. John and Kindle are listed as being "of Sussix County and [the] state of Delaware." Do you think this Kindle West could be your Kendle West? If so, do you know if he entered bonds like this as a regular matter, perhaps because of his business or his position in the community? Or, does his appearance in the bond more likely suggest a more personal relationship of community, friendship, or family? John A. Wharton and Elizabeth Freeman are my ggg-grandparents, and the bond appears to reflect their pending marriage. Dave K

Jay wrote: >>> ... bad land descriptions are a nightmare and what lawsuits are made of. ... Proverbs 22:28 <<< ________________ Under some circumstances, particularly given enough time, I would think that some anicent "written mistakes" could themselves become in a sense the ancient landmarks that "our fathers" have placed, inadvertantly. For instance, a land boundary misconstrued on the ground for years, in some settings, depending on the application of law, etc. might become the "real" boundary at some point, at least with respect to private parties. Dave K.

Jay, I have no problem with describing where the property is located. I was talking about the excessive use of words to describe something simple. Here is the quote from the referenced article: "he never used one word if he could stretch out the synonyms to twenty." An example in writing a deed he " would never record a simple agreement to 'sell' a property. According to the scribe, the seller of the property "hath given granted bargained sold released & confirmed and by these presents doth give grant bargain sell release and confirm." I have seen this dozens of times. Jean ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thompson Jay" <jaydarlene@sbcglobal.net> To: <lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:55 AM Subject: Re: [LDR] Old abbreviations and their [sometimes difficulttodetermine] meanings > Jean, > > Regarding your last sentence: look at the deed for your own property. If > you don't live in an apartment, subdivision, or condo describing EXACTLY > were you live will take several lines. If you live in an apartment, > subdivision, or condo, try describing EXACTLY where you live without using > the name of the complex or subdivision. I have worked in surveying and > currently work in assessing and bad land descriptions are a nightmare and > what lawsuits are made of. > > Proverbs 22:28 > > Jay > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "jfstms@bellsouth.net" <jfstms@bellsouth.net> > To: lower-delmarva-roots@rootsweb.com > Sent: Saturday, February 7, 2009 10:30:48 AM > Subject: Re: [LDR] Old abbreviations and their [sometimes difficult > todetermine] meanings > > Thanks for the link, Dave. The article is interesting . . . paid by the > word . . . that explains a lot. I have often wondered why it took a > paragraph to say someone sold land to someone else. > > Jean > -------------- Original message from "Dave & Jane Kearney" > <kearneyd@erols.com>: -------------- > > I enjoyed Dorothee Hughes Carousso's article, "Colonial Handwriting > Hazards and Hints," which can be found in the Pennsylvania Genealogical > Magazine, vol. 30, no. 4 (1978) at p. 227 et seq. You hopefully can find > the magazine and article available for reading on-line on google books at > http://books.google.com/books?id=BcJ1jgnNp6sC&pg=PA235&lpg=PA235&dq=%2B%22coloni > al+abbreviations%22&source=bl&ots=eiXz79KEp-&sig=xxTFDUpjTr2_ZvDIvd0GdI099FY&hl= >> en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA227,M1, >> >> Carousso even addresses colonial abbreviations on pages 235 & 236. >> (As for those apparently out of place, odd, weird, and often seemingly >> indecipherable names, numbers, figures, dates, places, words, and >> letters, and so forth, I try not to toss them out the window too quickly. >> Sometimes some of >> them mean something. And I have fun trying to figure them out in any >> event.) >> >> Dave K >> *************************************** >> QUESTIONS about POSTING GUIDELINES, SUBSCRIBING or UNSUBSCRIBING? >> Visit The Lower DelMarVa Roots Mailing List FAQ: >> http://www.tyaskin.com/handley/ldrfaq.htm >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> LOWER-DELMARVA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > *************************************** > QUESTIONS about POSTING GUIDELINES, SUBSCRIBING or UNSUBSCRIBING? > Visit The Lower DelMarVa Roots Mailing List FAQ: > http://www.tyaskin.com/handley/ldrfaq.htm > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOWER-DELMARVA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > *************************************** > QUESTIONS about POSTING GUIDELINES, SUBSCRIBING or UNSUBSCRIBING? > Visit The Lower DelMarVa Roots Mailing List FAQ: > http://www.tyaskin.com/handley/ldrfaq.htm > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOWER-DELMARVA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message