Morning Robin A very Happy Birthday! > Great work and great news: so my (Wootton Rivers) line has > been admitted to the Lieflock tree!! I must especially thank > Graham for his imagination and perseverance on this one. And > by an amazing (and timely) coincidence, which somehow I don't > think I'd spotted before, the John Lovelock whose bride is > now believed to have been Elizabeth Hillier (as per your > message below) was baptised on my birthday, 31 August. > 1) There was quite a bit of discussion around the identity > of the Mary L who was the mother of Lavinia Henrietta Alice > (aka Lily) born 20 July 1876 (Gt Bedwyn PR) and of various > (other) illegitimate children born to herself, her mother (I > think), and/or another Mary L. The relevant (amended) entry > in the updated Lieflock tree (pages [3-]4 and 5 of the pdf > version) seems to me to have got a bit scrambled - (i) repeat > of Mary+Aldin Mitchell --> > Lavinia+unknown --> Ernest Charles (ii) appearance (p. 5) of another > '+unknown' (possibly out-of-(vertical)'line'). Given the > (new) reference back to 'Richard L on page 3', it's quite > likely I've just failed to grasp what was at issue and that > the layout is spot on, but just in case, you might like to > re-check it. By the way, I was comparing the latest version > with that of (I think) March 2003, not the June 2004 update. > What may or may not be a slip comes around references to > Charles and George Champion, which may itself be significant > (quarter-way down p. 5). Can't help with that one Robin. My version of the Lieflock tree does not appear to have those errors. Here's what I have: Descendants of Mary Lovelock (daughter of Richard Lovelock and Milicent Fribbence) 1 Mary Lovelock b: 19 June 1839 in Great Bedwyn, Wiltshire, England Baptism: 7 July 1839 Great Bedwyn, Wiltshire, England . + Aldin Mitchell b: Abt. 1834 m: 20 October 1883 in Great Bedwyn, Wiltshire, England ... 2 Lavinia Henrietta Alice Lovelock b: 20 July 1876 in Great Bedwyn, Wiltshire, England Baptism: 8 November 1876 Great Bedwyn, Wiltshire, England ...... + James Cope b: Abt. 1867 in Great Bedwyn, Wiltshire, England m: Bet. January - March 1901 in Hungerford RD, Berkshire, England ...... 3 Ernest Charles Lovelock b: 8 July 1897 Baptism: 17 September 1897 Great Bedwyn, Wiltshire, England > 2) Re. an off-list email from Robert to me (22 July) > involving a paste-in of an earlier one (off-list?; to you > and/or Graham?). The key point for me was that it included > some further thoughts on the Wootton Rivers fragment (as of > then) and the Lieflock line, to which Robert had referred at > the Hungerford event, but the broader context was his ongoing > cross-checking of various B, M and D entries. In particular, > a Shalbourne burial Apr 13 1871 of William L aged 81, > probably son of John L and Elizabeth Hancock. W's marriage > Jun 15 1847, also at Shalbourne, to Alice Hindley. Robert > refers to Alice as buried at Wootton Rivers. I can't find > any reference to this in any of the material on the website > and I note that she appears (p. 3 latest Lieflock > pdf) as buried at Shalbourne. No burial date in 3/03 > version. Just checking ...... You've missed quite a lot of recent on-line discussion on this Robin. When you manage to catch up, it will hopefully sort itself out. The burial of William in 1871 you refer to above is correct as is his marriage to Alice Hindley. Alice was buried at Shalbourne in 1887 NOT Wootton Rivers. > 3) Discussion (James/Graham I think) of burials of various > Mary Lovelocks at Easton Royal, 1745-90, which seemed to > 'conclude' (10 Aug) that although Mary (Elford) wife of > Stephen, was pretty certainly the Mary buried 7 Aug 1765, > burials on 9 Feb 1783, 10 Sept 1790 and 4 March 1751/2 can't > be 'allocated' as between Mary (Willmaut) wife of Thomas, > Mary (Wilks) wife of Robert, and Mary (Chivers) wife of > Richard with any certainty without further data. (4 March > 1751/2 being a 'new' burial date, not in our PR listings 'til > now - Graham 10 Aug 22:21.) {By the way, I still don't > understand these 'old'/'new' dates you've often referred to > Graham, e.g. ref. John, ER/WR bap. 2/12 Feb1748/9; could you > explain some time please.} I also spotted 2 Mary Ls bap. 1708 > and 1780 in the same area of the tree. (As many Marys in > Easton Royal as Johns in Wootton Rivers eh?!) Contrasting > the March 2003 and August 2004 versions, Mary Willmaut now > seems to have been 'given' 1783 and Mary Chivers 1790. Am I > missing part of the discussion? Mary bap. 1708 has 'always' > appeared as 'd. 1745'; also as 'buried 14 Jan 1746' in the > 3/03 version, but not in the latest, which generally seems to > have less detail and more 'Abt's (?). Marys are always difficult to place. However, for what it's worth, this is what I have: Mary (Elford) wife of Stephen, was pretty certainly the Mary buried 7 Aug 1765 Easton Royal - Agreed Mary buried 9 Feb 1783 Easton Royal - I have this assigned to Mary Willmaut Mary buried 10 Sept 1790 Easton Royal - I have this assigned to Mary Chivers Mary buried 4 March 1751/2 Easton Royal - I don't have any record of such a burial at Easton Royal or anywhere else in Wiltshire for that matter. I don't have any burial date for Mary Wilks. The old/new date I can help you with. Up until 1 Jan 1752 the old Julian calendar was still used in England. (They lagged well behind Scotland and Europe in changing - a conservative lot even then!) Each year officially began on Lady Day (March 25) rather than 1 Jan. If you look at parish registers before then you will see this very clearly. From 1752 (by Act of Parliament of course) the year now began on Jan 1 based on the new and improved Gregorian calendar. Dates (between Jan 1 and March 24 of course) written before 1752 are often written in old style/new style format to avoid any confusion eg Jan 25, 1746/47. Hope this deosn't confuse things even more! > I think I identified quite a sprinkling of > apparently unresolved 'mysteries'/inclarities/lines of > thought which might be worth exploring I'll look forward to hearing about them in the future. >is it worth my while listing (perhaps off-list) for > discussion/exploration the various points I'm referring to as > arising from that old/out-of-date material, 'just in case', > even if it has been justifiably deleted? (No doubt you've in > fact retained a copy, even if it's not 'on public view'.) Robin, it's always worth revisiting old theories that have been abandoned. A new eye might just find something that others have missed. >From a now dark Southampton - though it was sunny and warm when I >started on >this, and how sad is that!?! Beautiful sunny near here out of Sydney. Of course it is Spring! I appear to have missed a lot of our southern winter ... I wonder where it went??? ;-) Best wishes and keep up those postings Robert

No. (1) was a mistake on my part - sorry about that! It seems like my database got screwed up when I was fixing Mary and Lavina/Lily. The second appearance of Mary and her daughter (as well as another son Richard) on P5 of the PDF version of the Lieflock tree were spurious and I've now corrected this. However, I differ from Robert on two points: - Lavina was born "out of wedlock" in 1876, before Mary's marriage to Aldin Mitchell, so we can't be sure he was the father. I have father "Unknown" - The identification of the marriage of Lavina/Lily to James Cope is not conclusive, and in any case Ernest Charles L was born before this marriage, so I have again father "unknown" James Robert Sterry wrote: >Morning Robin > >A very Happy Birthday! > > > >>Great work and great news: so my (Wootton Rivers) line has >>been admitted to the Lieflock tree!! I must especially thank >>Graham for his imagination and perseverance on this one. And >>by an amazing (and timely) coincidence, which somehow I don't >>think I'd spotted before, the John Lovelock whose bride is >>now believed to have been Elizabeth Hillier (as per your >>message below) was baptised on my birthday, 31 August. >> >> > > > > >>1) There was quite a bit of discussion around the identity >>of the Mary L who was the mother of Lavinia Henrietta Alice >>(aka Lily) born 20 July 1876 (Gt Bedwyn PR) and of various >>(other) illegitimate children born to herself, her mother (I >>think), and/or another Mary L. The relevant (amended) entry >>in the updated Lieflock tree (pages [3-]4 and 5 of the pdf >>version) seems to me to have got a bit scrambled - (i) repeat >>of Mary+Aldin Mitchell --> >>Lavinia+unknown --> Ernest Charles (ii) appearance (p. 5) of another >>'+unknown' (possibly out-of-(vertical)'line'). Given the >>(new) reference back to 'Richard L on page 3', it's quite >>likely I've just failed to grasp what was at issue and that >>the layout is spot on, but just in case, you might like to >>re-check it. By the way, I was comparing the latest version >>with that of (I think) March 2003, not the June 2004 update. >>What may or may not be a slip comes around references to >>Charles and George Champion, which may itself be significant >>(quarter-way down p. 5). >> >> > >Can't help with that one Robin. My version of the Lieflock tree does not >appear to have those errors. Here's what I have: > >Descendants of Mary Lovelock (daughter of Richard Lovelock and Milicent >Fribbence) > >1 Mary Lovelock b: 19 June 1839 in Great Bedwyn, Wiltshire, England Baptism: >7 July 1839 Great Bedwyn, Wiltshire, England >. + Aldin Mitchell b: Abt. 1834 m: 20 October 1883 in Great Bedwyn, >Wiltshire, England >... 2 Lavinia Henrietta Alice Lovelock b: 20 July 1876 in Great Bedwyn, >Wiltshire, England Baptism: 8 November 1876 Great Bedwyn, Wiltshire, England > >...... + James Cope b: Abt. 1867 in Great Bedwyn, Wiltshire, England m: Bet. >January - March 1901 in Hungerford RD, Berkshire, England > >...... 3 Ernest Charles Lovelock b: 8 July 1897 Baptism: 17 September 1897 >Great Bedwyn, Wiltshire, England > > >