At 03:55 PM 7/18/2010, Jimmie Ryan wrote: >Is there a difference between the female and male DNA test when it relates >to markers on results? Our Lovelace list has primarily male DNA test, we do >not collect any female DNA data for the purposes of determining Indian >lineage? Am I correct in assuming that it is the female line that carries >that DNA strand and not the male line? That's not correct, Jimmie. Our Lovelace DNA project was developed mainly to trace the ancestry of those with the surname. Traditionally, surnames are passed from fathers to their offspring, with mothers adopting the surname of the father. So if you examine the DNA of males with the surname, you are in effect tracing the passage of the surname down from father to son. This is done by examining specific markers on the y-chromosome, which is passed only from father to son. There are times, however, when this doesn't work as expected. We have several instances in our own study, where the tested markers show no close match to any of the other tested participants. This can be explained in a couple ways... either by the emergence of an totally new line carrying the surname, or by a case of surname adoption. Another test, which we as a group have not utilized, is the mtDNA test. mtDNA is located in the mitochondria, small organelles in the cell which carry separate DNA which really doesn't play into the genetic code of organisms. However, the characteristic of mtDNA which makes it useful for genealogical purposes is that it is passed from *mother* to offspring. Therefore, it us useful in tracing maternal lines for both men and women. Neither of these tests is definitive for Native American ancestry, as far as I know. However, if there is a definite haplotype associated with Native American ancestry, then either of the two main tests could provide a match to that haplotype and, as a result, possibly confirm Native American ancestry. But I really am unfamiliar with this depth of research. I know that my ancestry through the Lovelaces leads back to Europe and is not a match for the Native American haplotype. Maybe Jack, David, or Lou Ann could hop in here at this point with a better, more detailed explanation. Hope this helps. Peace, Part of the Tree, Greg

Thanks cousin, did know about the surname part of DNA, yet was unsure of the mtDNA which I already understood to be passed by the mother to the child. I too am confused as to its use, maybe the other cousins with more experience then I with this DNA thing can give us laymen an idea of how the Indian Nations today are using DNA to find other tribal members and/or to prove Indian Heritage like the Cherokee Nation. We know all or most of the settlers of the new world (or east coast at least) came from Europe; with current archeology evidence the native peoples also came from Europe although much earlier, yet as you said the list is only looking at Surnames to match a "known" family lines (well we have had a few with some surprises, right cousin Terry) within the Lovelace (Loveless) lines; or we discover a new line completely relying on DNA research from DNA World Project. My question to your Gregg is what did you mean by: "That's not correct?" You say the list is only "tracing the ancestry of the surname," which I had originally stated; you clearly (and very well put forth) stated that the groups DNA research "have not utilized" the mtDNA testing. I suppose this new DNA science continues to evolve and change and the definitions happen faster than we can keep up with it. I guess my question was: Haplogroup Q3, Q or C3; as stated by Betsy, where would this be when someone has a DNA test, would these value be listed with this "male to male offspring" orientated test or would this Haplogroup be only in the mtDNA testing procedure? Haplogroup Q3,Q, or C3 would be present in both forms of testing or not, this confusion comes from seeing the result of the marker test and not seeing this "Q" value where does the Q3 et al value come from? Sorry I do not mean to be ignorant, yet this science is very confusing and I suppose I was just curious now that there seems to be evidence that the Eastern bands of Native American (I suppose they are known as the Five Civilized Tribes) did in fact come from Europe; then would not those Indian group also have the European Haplotypes present when we test the "surname DNA test?" This is the confusing part of this for me; say like when the discovery channel's latest series on the Origins of Native Peoples of North American shows that western native people seem to come from China (Orient); with the eastern native people coming over (or following the ice sheets) an ice/land bridge from Europe centuries before our "New World history that we were taught in school (1950 history)?" How do they make the difference from native groups of euro-originated Native Americans to the ones that have European DNA values as they were immigrates (after 1492) to the new world - if that makes sense at all. Thanks again cousin for the explanation, I do really appreciate it. It explains a lot for me and gives me the generalities in outline form for me to follow, except for my curiosity of what the difference is between European Haplotype and the North/Southern Hemisphere Haplotype values are derived from. Cuz Jimmie -----Original Message----- From: lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Greg Lovelace Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 3:35 PM To: lovelace@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA At 03:55 PM 7/18/2010, Jimmie Ryan wrote: >Is there a difference between the female and male DNA test when it relates >to markers on results? Our Lovelace list has primarily male DNA test, we do >not collect any female DNA data for the purposes of determining Indian >lineage? Am I correct in assuming that it is the female line that carries >that DNA strand and not the male line? That's not correct, Jimmie. Our Lovelace DNA project was developed mainly to trace the ancestry of those with the surname. Traditionally, surnames are passed from fathers to their offspring, with mothers adopting the surname of the father. So if you examine the DNA of males with the surname, you are in effect tracing the passage of the surname down from father to son. This is done by examining specific markers on the y-chromosome, which is passed only from father to son. There are times, however, when this doesn't work as expected. We have several instances in our own study, where the tested markers show no close match to any of the other tested participants. This can be explained in a couple ways... either by the emergence of an totally new line carrying the surname, or by a case of surname adoption. Another test, which we as a group have not utilized, is the mtDNA test. mtDNA is located in the mitochondria, small organelles in the cell which carry separate DNA which really doesn't play into the genetic code of organisms. However, the characteristic of mtDNA which makes it useful for genealogical purposes is that it is passed from *mother* to offspring. Therefore, it us useful in tracing maternal lines for both men and women. Neither of these tests is definitive for Native American ancestry, as far as I know. However, if there is a definite haplotype associated with Native American ancestry, then either of the two main tests could provide a match to that haplotype and, as a result, possibly confirm Native American ancestry. But I really am unfamiliar with this depth of research. I know that my ancestry through the Lovelaces leads back to Europe and is not a match for the Native American haplotype. Maybe Jack, David, or Lou Ann could hop in here at this point with a better, more detailed explanation. Hope this helps. Peace, Part of the Tree, Greg ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

At 09:02 PM 7/18/2010, Jimmie wrote: >I guess my question was: > >Haplogroup Q3, Q or C3; as stated by Betsy, where would this be when someone >has a DNA test, would these value be listed with this "male to male >offspring" orientated test or would this Haplogroup be only in the mtDNA >testing procedure? Haplogroup Q3,Q, or C3 would be present in both forms of >testing or not, this confusion comes from seeing the result of the marker >test and not seeing this "Q" value where does the Q3 et al value come from? Hey, Jimmie... I'm sorry, cuz... I guess I'm just as confused as you are. The Haplogroup we belong to goes back much further than the tests we are looking at, or at least that is my understanding. I just checked the FTDNA pages, and the haplogroup *is* listed in the results, just not with the marker matches. Go to this page and read about haplogroups: http://www.familytreedna.com/snps-r-us.aspx The haplogroup is listed under the heading "Y-DNA results" on the test subjects FTDNA page, and can be found by clicking on the link that says "Haplotree". Mine states that I belong to haplogroup R1b1b2. What this actually means is mostly unclear to me, except that the group arose in Europe in prehistoric times. You were asking about DNA testing for native American tribes. I googled and found some interesting links. Try some of these and see if they might answer some of your questions: http://www.manataka.org/page267.html http://www.comanchelodge.com/cherokee-blood.html http://www.healthanddna.com/ancestry-dna-testing/native-american-dna.html http://genealogical-research-methods.suite101.com/article.cfm/dna_testing_for_native_american_ancestry These should get you started. Hope it helps. Peace, Part of the Tree, Greg