You're welcome, Max.   Terry --- On Tue, 7/20/10, Max Westbruck <maxwestbruck@mac.com> wrote: From: Max Westbruck <maxwestbruck@mac.com> Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA To: "Greg Lovelace" <lovelace@rootsweb.com> Date: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 11:46 AM Terrence, Thank you for that insightful information. I have also wondered about  the word "che & chi", having served in the military, much of that time  in the far east, I was a commrad with a fellow soldier who was  American Indian, who spoke his native language. Tribe unknown to me  now. He was surprised to learn that "che" in his language was the same  as "chi" in Viet Nam. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 20, 2010, at 10:05 AM, terrence White <revenant1963@yahoo.com>  wrote: > Greg"ette"-- > > This much I can tell you abt. haplogroup R1b1b2-- > > R1b (the ancestral group) was an offshoot in prehistoric times from  > R1, from which R1a also descends. Some researchers are now claiming  > that R1a represents the so-called "satem" split of the Indo-European  > language/culture groups, whereas R1b represents the so-called  > "centum" split from the Indo-European parent tree. Both groups ended  > up invading pre-historic Europe, but at widely divergent times--the  > centum group (R1b) much, much earlier (ca. 8000 B.C.E.), and the  > satem group around the time of Christ. (My dates could be off a  > little, but are close enough for purposes of this discussion.) > > As we all know, R1b became the dominant haplogroup in Western Europe  > (the so-called "Atlantic Modal Haplogroup"), whereas R1a tends to  > predominate in Eastern Europe (but extends as far south as Iran,  > Afghanistan, and even into India). This (again) corresponds exactly  > to the known historical migration patterns of the two groups,  > "centum" and "satem". > > But here's the really interesting part: Scandinavia, the ancient  > homeland of the Germanic peoples (whence we derive our language,  > English), was a mixture of R1a ("satem"), R1b ("centum"), and the  > "I1" group (my own group, also known as the autochthonous or  > aboriginal group). > > This is confirmed by linguistic studies, which clearly show that the  > Germanic languages (including English) arose due to a mix of  > differing foreign language influxes into that area. The Germanic  > language group shares the majority of its lexicon (word stock) with  > the Balto-Slavic group ("satem" or R1a). An example is our word  > "swine," which in Russian is "svinia" [spelled with English letters]). > > But the Germanic groups also show clear borrowings and influence  > from the Celto-Italic languages ("centum" or R1b). An example there  > (out of many possible ones) would be the word "rich" (or the German  > word "Reich") both of which stem from a Germanic original *rikja-,  > which was borrowed from a proto-Celtic form *rig-yo. The reference  > of course was to the "realm of the king". (The proto-Celtic word for  > "king" was "rix"--almost identical to the Latin "rex".) > > Here is the Wikipedia page for the "centum/satem isogloss": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum-Satem_isogloss > > Basically, this term comes from representative forms of the word for  > [one] "hundred" in each of those ancestral language families:  > "satem" from the ancient Avestan (related to modern Farsi, or  > Persian), and "centum," from Latin. The Indo-European dialects  > diverged many thousands of years ago, at first into two main groups-- > one group preserving the original hard /k/ sound of the initial  > consonant of that word (originally something like *kmtom), whereas  > the so-called "satem" group changed the hard initial /k/ into a  > soft /s/-like sound, rather like the way we pronounce it today in  > English (although we do so for different reasons). > > I find it fascinating how genetics and linguistic studies are  > beginning to converge, and point to the same conclusion about our  > ancestry and language! > > Hope this helps some. > > Terry > > --- On Mon, 7/19/10, Jimmie Ryan <jimmie.ryan@verizon.net> wrote: > > > From: Jimmie Ryan <jimmie.ryan@verizon.net> > Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA > To: lovelace@rootsweb.com > Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 7:23 PM > > > Per Ancestry: > > Haplogroup C (M130) (Oceania, North/Central/East Asia, North America  > and > significant presence in India) > > Thanks cousin, still very confused... :) > > Cuz Jimmie > > -----Original Message----- > From: lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com > ] > On Behalf Of Greg Lovelace > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 7:17 PM > To: lovelace@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA > > At 09:02 PM 7/18/2010, Jimmie wrote: >> I guess my question was: >> >> Haplogroup Q3, Q or C3; as stated by Betsy, where would this be when >> someone has a DNA test, would these value be listed with this "male  >> to >> male offspring" orientated test or would this Haplogroup be only in  >> the >> mtDNA testing procedure?  Haplogroup Q3,Q, or C3 would be present in >> both forms of testing or not, this confusion comes from seeing the >> result of the marker test and not seeing this "Q" value where does  >> the Q3 > et al value come from? > > Hey, Jimmie...   I'm sorry, cuz...  I guess I'm just as confused as > you are.  The Haplogroup we belong to goes back much further than  > the tests > we are looking at, or at least that is my understanding.  I just  > checked the > FTDNA pages, and the haplogroup *is* listed in the results, just not  > with > the marker matches.  Go to this page and read about haplogroups: > > http://www.familytreedna.com/snps-r-us.aspx > > The haplogroup is listed under the heading "Y-DNA results" on the test > subjects FTDNA page, and can be found by clicking on the link that  > says > "Haplotree".  Mine states that I belong to haplogroup R1b1b2.  What  > this > actually means is mostly unclear to me, except that the group arose in > Europe in prehistoric times. > > You were asking about DNA testing for native American tribes.  I    > googled > and found some interesting links.  Try some of these and see if they  > might > answer some of your questions: > > http://www.manataka.org/page267.html > http://www.comanchelodge.com/cherokee-blood.html > http://www.healthanddna.com/ancestry-dna-testing/native-american-dna.html > http://genealogical-research-methods.suite101.com/article.cfm/dna_testing_fo > r_native_american_ancestry > > These should get you started.  Hope it helps. > > Peace, > Part of the Tree, > Greg > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without  > the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com >  with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and  > the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com >  with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and  > the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message