<br><br>---------- Original Message ----------<br>From: william loveless <wsloveless@yahoo.com><br>To: lovelace@rootsweb.com<br>Subject: Re: [LL] Cherokee Blood<br>Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:23:15 -0700 (PDT)<br><br>I loved your <br>Corn Blossom video. There is no telling how many more of us there would have been had this massacre not occurred. How many contributions would have been made if these 110 people had lived. I think my family also has a connection to Corn Blossom through the Black Fox line and also have Lovelace family buried in the Parmley cemetery. Keep up the good work<br><br>Teri Steiner<br><br><br>My LoveLess line goes back to Pulaski Co. Ky. since 1776,when it was all Virginia.<br>It was always rumored that we had Native blood,but nobody dared to admit it due to persecution and fear.This was then the stronghold of the mighty Thunderbolt Cherokee<br>People.It it rumored that they fell after a massacre at Ywahoo Falls when Franklinites trapped , raped and ! killed all women(mostly pregnant) ,children and elders of the nation.<br>110 people that I feel very close with died in a genicide attempt on Aug.10th 1810.<br>(200 years ago this year) and 30 some years before the "trail of tears". Just wanted to share this info.I have a niece from my Sister that is a direct decendant of "Cornblossom" through the Rainwater family.Please consider sheding a Cherokee "tear" with me in rememberance this year on Aug.10 2010. Here's a video I did...<br>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bjrWYNS0l8<br>--- On Thu, 7/15/10, Greg Lovelace <greglovelace@comcast.net> wrote:<br><br>From: Greg Lovelace <greglovelace@comcast.net><br>Subject: Re: [LL] Cherokee Blood<br>To: lovelace@rootsweb.com<br>Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 3:34 PM<br><br>All,<br><br>As far as I know, none of my line has any Cherokee blood.� They were <br>in Spartanburg Co., SC in the early 1800s before moving up to <br>Rutherford Co., NC in the 1810s.� There is! always the possibility <br>that there was some intermarriage ! with Che rokees, but I have no <br>direct evidence of it.� I do know that in the early 1900s, the <br>federal government, in an attempt to make amends for the uprooting of <br>the Eastern Cherokees, formed a commission, the Dawes Commission, to <br>investigate claims of Cherokee ancestry and determine if any <br>reparations were due to the descendants of those forced to leave <br>their ancestral homelands and move to join the Western Cherokees on <br>the reservation in Oklahoma.� Many people, in an effort to get in on <br>the government gravy train, tried to claim Cherokee ancestry.� Some <br>were successful, some were not.� I do know that some of the <br>descendants of Barton of GA applied to the Dawes Commission, but I <br>think they were claiming ancestry through Barton's wife Ibby.� Lou <br>Ann and Anne Haneghan can set me straight on that if I'm wrong.� So <br>many of the claims of Cherokee ancestry may be traced back to the <br>possibil! ity of getting a share of the reparations offered by the government.<br><br>Peace,<br>Part of the Tree,<br>Greg<br><br><br>At 12:35 PM 7/15/2010, you wrote:<br>>Mollie (Mary R.) Lovelace, daughter of William Ramsey Lovelace is <br>>noted in our family oral history as being Cherokee.� I have never <br>>found a document to prove it, though the few photographs we have of <br>>her she does look as though she might indeed have been.<br>><br>>I am not sure if the Cherokee came from her Lovelace father or from <br>>her mother, Ann Knott.<br>><br>>Would love to know if any of the Barton clan has found records of <br>>Cherokee?� Greg #1???<br><br>No virus found in this outgoing message.<br>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <br>Version: 9.0.830 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3006 - Release Date: 07/14/10 22:26:00<br> <br>-------------------------------<br>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the wor! d 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body! of the message<br><br><br><br> <br> <br>-------------------------------<br>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________ FIRE SALE: iPads for $23.74? SPECIAL REPORT: Unique auction site can save you 90% off retail. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c4455a3a6fff3391d9st04duc
Dear Katherine; Yes I still have a few left. There is only a paragraph about this man in the book. They are now $10.00. My address is 560 N. E. F Street, PMB 506, Grants Pass, Oregon. Would love to hear from you. -----Original Message----- From: Katherine Melton <katherine82@insightbb.com> To: lovelace@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, Jul 17, 2010 4:21 pm Subject: Re: [LL] Cherokee Blood Kellenda , o you still any of her book for sale . I seem to remember a while back you ad some . I am interested in one . This has been an interesting week on our ite . atherine82insightbb.com ---- Original Message ----- rom: <kellenda@aol.com> o: <lovelace@rootsweb.com> ent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 4:45 PM ubject: Re: [LL] Cherokee Blood Dear Susan and Lovelace family members; A Lovelace gentleman whose name was Bill Lovelace visited my mom in the late 1980's in Eugene, Oregon. He was 96 years old and on his way to Oklahoma to claim his Indian heritage. Oil money I believe. He was an Indian agent in Oklahoma and had married an Indian,, Osage I believe. He claimed he had traced the Lovelace family back to Baron Lovelace on the Isle of Bute, in Kilgatten Bay off Glasgow, Scotland. My mom was truly fascinated as her father was John McKirdy who was born in the mid 1800's on the Isle of Bute. My father was Dennis Lovelace who descends from John Baptise Lovelace. This information is in a book called Annie's Story which is my mom's life story. Denise Lovleace Kellenbeck -----Original Message----- From: spice3@juno.com <spice3@juno.com> To: lovelace@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, Jul 16, 2010 12:48 pm Subject: Re: [LL] Cherokee Blood Jeff writes: >On my Loveless line from Jesse and Rebecca to Pinkney Wilson and James Larkin has no Native American blood in it. We are English and Scot-Irish with a smidgen of French. I would like to express, to keep down the confusion, that I am from the ame line. As far as I know, we have no clue as to where Jesse came rom other than who he connects to w/ his DNA which is the Maryland roup. His wife Rebecca, as far as I know, is a complete unknown. My gr gran Liadora Adelaide from this same line professed to be one undred percent Scot. Scots during this era were very clannish and arried one another, as did my whole family from the 4th generation ack that is currently known. Liadora married a Scot, as did her son, y grandfather. They have Scot tendencies, mannerisms and physical haracteristics. Buckette ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message
Ginny, where did your Thomas live? Dr. Alton Loveless Alton and Delois Loveless 527 Virginia Street Ashville, Ohio 43103 573-330-7728 Cell For "Monday Moments" blog go to: altonloveless.blogspot.com for additional stories. ________________________________ From: william loveless <wsloveless@yahoo.com> To: lovelace@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, July 19, 2010 2:19:25 PM Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA I recently discovered Thomas Loveless on the Dawes rolls...Choctaw tribe case #60 ,but do not know how to gain access to further info.Can anyone help?He's probably my gg --- On Mon, 7/19/10, ginnyo <ginnyo@knology.net> wrote: From: ginnyo <ginnyo@knology.net> Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA To: lovelace@rootsweb.com Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 1:59 PM Nancy, Okay....then I understand better now. I don't have any living male relatives that could be tested then. Thank you again. Sincerely, GinnyO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nancy Ross" <nlwross@hotmail.com> To: "lovelace" <lovelace@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 12:06 PM Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA > > Ginny- > If your mother was a Lovelace and her father was a Lovelace, you would > have to get a donor who is the son of your Grandfather Lovelace , or the > son of one of his brothers. In other words your male cousin or uncle whose > surname is Lovelace. > > Nancy > > > >> From: ginnyo@knology.net >> To: lovelace@rootsweb.com >> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 10:00:34 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA >> >> Nancy, >> >> Thank you so much for the explanation....as my Lovelace bloodline is >> through >> my Mother....and my maternal Grandfather....so, I would need to get one >> of >> my brothers to do a DNA test. >> >> Have a wonderful week everyone. >> >> Sincerely, >> GinnyO >>bject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Nancy, Okay....then I understand better now. I don't have any living male relatives that could be tested then. Thank you again. Sincerely, GinnyO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nancy Ross" <nlwross@hotmail.com> To: "lovelace" <lovelace@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 12:06 PM Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA > > Ginny- > If your mother was a Lovelace and her father was a Lovelace, you would > have to get a donor who is the son of your Grandfather Lovelace , or the > son of one of his brothers. In other words your male cousin or uncle whose > surname is Lovelace. > > Nancy > > > >> From: ginnyo@knology.net >> To: lovelace@rootsweb.com >> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 10:00:34 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA >> >> Nancy, >> >> Thank you so much for the explanation....as my Lovelace bloodline is >> through >> my Mother....and my maternal Grandfather....so, I would need to get one >> of >> my brothers to do a DNA test. >> >> Have a wonderful week everyone. >> >> Sincerely, >> GinnyO >>bject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
Ginny- If your mother was a Lovelace and her father was a Lovelace, you would have to get a donor who is the son of your Grandfather Lovelace , or the son of one of his brothers. In other words your male cousin or uncle whose surname is Lovelace. Nancy > From: ginnyo@knology.net > To: lovelace@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 10:00:34 -0500 > Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA > > Nancy, > > Thank you so much for the explanation....as my Lovelace bloodline is through > my Mother....and my maternal Grandfather....so, I would need to get one of > my brothers to do a DNA test. > > Have a wonderful week everyone. > > Sincerely, > GinnyO >bject and the body of the message
I recently discovered Thomas Loveless on the Dawes rolls...Choctaw tribe case #60 ,but do not know how to gain access to further info.Can anyone help?He's probably my gg --- On Mon, 7/19/10, ginnyo <ginnyo@knology.net> wrote: From: ginnyo <ginnyo@knology.net> Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA To: lovelace@rootsweb.com Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 1:59 PM Nancy, Okay....then I understand better now. I don't have any living male relatives that could be tested then. Thank you again. Sincerely, GinnyO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nancy Ross" <nlwross@hotmail.com> To: "lovelace" <lovelace@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 12:06 PM Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA > > Ginny- > If your mother was a Lovelace and her father was a Lovelace, you would > have to get a donor who is the son of your Grandfather Lovelace , or the > son of one of his brothers. In other words your male cousin or uncle whose > surname is Lovelace. > > Nancy > > > >> From: ginnyo@knology.net >> To: lovelace@rootsweb.com >> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 10:00:34 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA >> >> Nancy, >> >> Thank you so much for the explanation....as my Lovelace bloodline is >> through >> my Mother....and my maternal Grandfather....so, I would need to get one >> of >> my brothers to do a DNA test. >> >> Have a wonderful week everyone. >> >> Sincerely, >> GinnyO >>bject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
At 10:09 AM 7/19/2010, Terrence White wrote: --------------------------snip---------------------------- >Not only this, but there is indeed an element of current Archaeology >which does now suggest that it is possible that some of the eastern >Native groups may have had some level of influx from European yDNA >(or at least culture--a much more difficult thing to prove!) in >pre-historic times. Groups suggested as origin points for this >influence include the ancient Vikings, Libyans, Irish, etc. There is >a variety of evidence arrayed to support these claims, including >alphabetical, linguistic, lexicographical, archaeological, and >semantic. I must stress, however, that this is not yet a fully >accepted or mainstream view within the archaeological field (nor do >I myself necessarily agree with it). ------------------snip------------- -----------------------------------snip-------------------------- Terry, I agree with your assessment. After watching many of the Archaeological and History programs on the History, National Geographic, Science and Discovery channels I would not be surprised at any of these occurrences. In fact I saw a program last night about how Chinese ships visited the west coast of America several years before Columbus and we all know of the Archaeological evidence of the Vikings. Many of the Native Americans, ie Sitting Bull (of Custer's Last Stand) had blue eyes and dyed his hair black (this I learned from a very good friend, who's Mother was a member of the same family of Sitting Bull). This man also (who is at least 3/4, or more, Native American) has blue eyes. (Blue, is a recessive gene I believe.) Nothing would surprise me as future DNA research progresses. Bill McMahon
Ginny, To get the yDNA results for Lovelace, you will have to have one of your uncles (your mother's brothers) tested. Your brothers do not have the Lovelace surname and do not have the Lovelace yDNA. ginnyo wrote: > Nancy, > > Thank you so much for the explanation....as my Lovelace bloodline is through > my Mother....and my maternal Grandfather....so, I would need to get one of > my brothers to do a DNA test. > > Have a wonderful week everyone. > > Sincerely, > GinnyO > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nancy Ross" <nlwross@hotmail.com> > To: "lovelace" <lovelace@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 11:11 PM > Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA > > > >> Jimmie- >> First, the American Indians did not come from Europe but from Asia and >> thousands of years before the Europeans came. >> YDNA is most useful to genealogy use for several reasons-it follows the >> surname, it is what has been tested the most, and all records use the >> surname of the man involved. In a well developed surname study the >> chances of getting matches are pretty good. >> MtDNA follows the mother, has not been used a lot, female names back >> several generations, as we all know are very difficult to find, and rarely >> is the female name on land records, etc. This makes it very much less >> useful. The chance of getting a match to a name that means anything to >> the donor is almost minuscule. >> Either test will give you a good idea of where your ancestors originated >> in a general area-for instance my MtDNA told me my family came from >> norther Europe and the British Isles-no surprise since I was following >> Taylor-Ruble-Tyler-Gillespie-Sims (Mother-grandmother-grgrandmother-etc). >> I tested because I wanted to find out if I had Indian blood-but since have >> realized this test did not follow the line that I thought might be Indian, >> which is my mother's fraternal line, not her maternal line. The only way >> I can test this line is to find a male descendant of the line to be >> tested. >> >> Nancy Welty Ross >> >> >> >> >>> From: jimmie.ryan@verizon.net >>> To: lovelace@rootsweb.com >>> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 18:02:46 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA >>> >>> Thanks cousin, did know about the surname part of DNA, yet was unsure of >>> the >>> mtDNA which I already understood to be passed by the mother to the child. >>> I >>> too am confused as to its use, maybe the other cousins with more >>> experience >>> then I with this DNA thing can give us laymen an idea of how the Indian >>> Nations today are using DNA to find other tribal members and/or to prove >>> Indian Heritage like the Cherokee Nation. We know all or most of the >>> settlers of the new world (or east coast at least) came from Europe; with >>> current archeology evidence the native peoples also came from Europe >>> although much earlier, yet as you said the list is only looking at >>> Surnames >>> to match a "known" family lines (well we have had a few with some >>> surprises, >>> right cousin Terry) within the Lovelace (Loveless) lines; or we discover >>> a >>> new line completely relying on DNA research from DNA World Project. My >>> question to your Gregg is what did you mean by: "That's not correct?" >>> You >>> say the list is only "tracing the ancestry of the surname," which I had >>> originally stated; you clearly (and very well put forth) stated that the >>> groups DNA research "have not utilized" the mtDNA testing. I suppose >>> this >>> new DNA science continues to evolve and change and the definitions happen >>> faster than we can keep up with it. >>> >>> I guess my question was: >>> >>> Haplogroup Q3, Q or C3; as stated by Betsy, where would this be when >>> someone >>> has a DNA test, would these value be listed with this "male to male >>> offspring" orientated test or would this Haplogroup be only in the mtDNA >>> testing procedure? Haplogroup Q3,Q, or C3 would be present in both forms >>> of >>> testing or not, this confusion comes from seeing the result of the marker >>> test and not seeing this "Q" value where does the Q3 et al value come >>> from? >>> >>> Sorry I do not mean to be ignorant, yet this science is very confusing >>> and I >>> suppose I was just curious now that there seems to be evidence that the >>> Eastern bands of Native American (I suppose they are known as the Five >>> Civilized Tribes) did in fact come from Europe; then would not those >>> Indian >>> group also have the European Haplotypes present when we test the "surname >>> DNA test?" This is the confusing part of this for me; say like when the >>> discovery channel's latest series on the Origins of Native Peoples of >>> North >>> American shows that western native people seem to come from China >>> (Orient); >>> with the eastern native people coming over (or following the ice sheets) >>> an >>> ice/land bridge from Europe centuries before our "New World history that >>> we >>> were taught in school (1950 history)?" How do they make the difference >>> from >>> native groups of euro-originated Native Americans to the ones that have >>> European DNA values as they were immigrates (after 1492) to the new >>> world - >>> if that makes sense at all. >>> >>> Thanks again cousin for the explanation, I do really appreciate it. It >>> explains a lot for me and gives me the generalities in outline form for >>> me >>> to follow, except for my curiosity of what the difference is between >>> European Haplotype and the North/Southern Hemisphere Haplotype values are >>> derived from. >>> >>> Cuz Jimmie >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com >>> [mailto:lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com] >>> On Behalf Of Greg Lovelace >>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 3:35 PM >>> To: lovelace@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA >>> >>> At 03:55 PM 7/18/2010, Jimmie Ryan wrote: >>> >>>> Is there a difference between the female and male DNA test when it >>>> relates >>>> to markers on results? Our Lovelace list has primarily male DNA test, >>>> we >>>> >>> do >>> >>>> not collect any female DNA data for the purposes of determining Indian >>>> lineage? Am I correct in assuming that it is the female line that >>>> carries >>>> that DNA strand and not the male line? >>>> >>> That's not correct, Jimmie. Our Lovelace DNA project was developed >>> mainly to trace the ancestry of those with the >>> surname. Traditionally, surnames are passed from fathers to their >>> offspring, with mothers adopting the surname of the father. So if >>> you examine the DNA of males with the surname, you are in effect >>> tracing the passage of the surname down from father to son. This is >>> done by examining specific markers on the y-chromosome, which is >>> passed only from father to son. There are times, however, when this >>> doesn't work as expected. We have several instances in our own >>> study, where the tested markers show no close match to any of the >>> other tested participants. This can be explained in a couple >>> ways... either by the emergence of an totally new line carrying the >>> surname, or by a case of surname adoption. >>> >>> Another test, which we as a group have not utilized, is the mtDNA >>> test. mtDNA is located in the mitochondria, small organelles in the >>> cell which carry separate DNA which really doesn't play into the >>> genetic code of organisms. However, the characteristic of mtDNA >>> which makes it useful for genealogical purposes is that it is passed >>> from *mother* to offspring. Therefore, it us useful in tracing >>> maternal lines for both men and women. >>> >>> Neither of these tests is definitive for Native American ancestry, as >>> far as I know. However, if there is a definite haplotype associated >>> with Native American ancestry, then either of the two main tests >>> could provide a match to that haplotype and, as a result, possibly >>> confirm Native American ancestry. But I really am unfamiliar with >>> this depth of research. I know that my ancestry through the >>> Lovelaces leads back to Europe and is not a match for the Native >>> American haplotype. >>> >>> Maybe Jack, David, or Lou Ann could hop in here at this point with a >>> better, more detailed explanation. >>> >>> Hope this helps. >>> >>> Peace, >>> Part of the Tree, >>> Greg >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes >>> in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > -- Jack D. Lovelace
Nancy, Thank you so much for the explanation....as my Lovelace bloodline is through my Mother....and my maternal Grandfather....so, I would need to get one of my brothers to do a DNA test. Have a wonderful week everyone. Sincerely, GinnyO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nancy Ross" <nlwross@hotmail.com> To: "lovelace" <lovelace@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 11:11 PM Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA > > Jimmie- > First, the American Indians did not come from Europe but from Asia and > thousands of years before the Europeans came. > YDNA is most useful to genealogy use for several reasons-it follows the > surname, it is what has been tested the most, and all records use the > surname of the man involved. In a well developed surname study the > chances of getting matches are pretty good. > MtDNA follows the mother, has not been used a lot, female names back > several generations, as we all know are very difficult to find, and rarely > is the female name on land records, etc. This makes it very much less > useful. The chance of getting a match to a name that means anything to > the donor is almost minuscule. > Either test will give you a good idea of where your ancestors originated > in a general area-for instance my MtDNA told me my family came from > norther Europe and the British Isles-no surprise since I was following > Taylor-Ruble-Tyler-Gillespie-Sims (Mother-grandmother-grgrandmother-etc). > I tested because I wanted to find out if I had Indian blood-but since have > realized this test did not follow the line that I thought might be Indian, > which is my mother's fraternal line, not her maternal line. The only way > I can test this line is to find a male descendant of the line to be > tested. > > Nancy Welty Ross > > > >> From: jimmie.ryan@verizon.net >> To: lovelace@rootsweb.com >> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 18:02:46 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA >> >> Thanks cousin, did know about the surname part of DNA, yet was unsure of >> the >> mtDNA which I already understood to be passed by the mother to the child. >> I >> too am confused as to its use, maybe the other cousins with more >> experience >> then I with this DNA thing can give us laymen an idea of how the Indian >> Nations today are using DNA to find other tribal members and/or to prove >> Indian Heritage like the Cherokee Nation. We know all or most of the >> settlers of the new world (or east coast at least) came from Europe; with >> current archeology evidence the native peoples also came from Europe >> although much earlier, yet as you said the list is only looking at >> Surnames >> to match a "known" family lines (well we have had a few with some >> surprises, >> right cousin Terry) within the Lovelace (Loveless) lines; or we discover >> a >> new line completely relying on DNA research from DNA World Project. My >> question to your Gregg is what did you mean by: "That's not correct?" >> You >> say the list is only "tracing the ancestry of the surname," which I had >> originally stated; you clearly (and very well put forth) stated that the >> groups DNA research "have not utilized" the mtDNA testing. I suppose >> this >> new DNA science continues to evolve and change and the definitions happen >> faster than we can keep up with it. >> >> I guess my question was: >> >> Haplogroup Q3, Q or C3; as stated by Betsy, where would this be when >> someone >> has a DNA test, would these value be listed with this "male to male >> offspring" orientated test or would this Haplogroup be only in the mtDNA >> testing procedure? Haplogroup Q3,Q, or C3 would be present in both forms >> of >> testing or not, this confusion comes from seeing the result of the marker >> test and not seeing this "Q" value where does the Q3 et al value come >> from? >> >> Sorry I do not mean to be ignorant, yet this science is very confusing >> and I >> suppose I was just curious now that there seems to be evidence that the >> Eastern bands of Native American (I suppose they are known as the Five >> Civilized Tribes) did in fact come from Europe; then would not those >> Indian >> group also have the European Haplotypes present when we test the "surname >> DNA test?" This is the confusing part of this for me; say like when the >> discovery channel's latest series on the Origins of Native Peoples of >> North >> American shows that western native people seem to come from China >> (Orient); >> with the eastern native people coming over (or following the ice sheets) >> an >> ice/land bridge from Europe centuries before our "New World history that >> we >> were taught in school (1950 history)?" How do they make the difference >> from >> native groups of euro-originated Native Americans to the ones that have >> European DNA values as they were immigrates (after 1492) to the new >> world - >> if that makes sense at all. >> >> Thanks again cousin for the explanation, I do really appreciate it. It >> explains a lot for me and gives me the generalities in outline form for >> me >> to follow, except for my curiosity of what the difference is between >> European Haplotype and the North/Southern Hemisphere Haplotype values are >> derived from. >> >> Cuz Jimmie >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com] >> On Behalf Of Greg Lovelace >> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 3:35 PM >> To: lovelace@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA >> >> At 03:55 PM 7/18/2010, Jimmie Ryan wrote: >> >Is there a difference between the female and male DNA test when it >> >relates >> >to markers on results? Our Lovelace list has primarily male DNA test, >> >we >> do >> >not collect any female DNA data for the purposes of determining Indian >> >lineage? Am I correct in assuming that it is the female line that >> >carries >> >that DNA strand and not the male line? >> >> That's not correct, Jimmie. Our Lovelace DNA project was developed >> mainly to trace the ancestry of those with the >> surname. Traditionally, surnames are passed from fathers to their >> offspring, with mothers adopting the surname of the father. So if >> you examine the DNA of males with the surname, you are in effect >> tracing the passage of the surname down from father to son. This is >> done by examining specific markers on the y-chromosome, which is >> passed only from father to son. There are times, however, when this >> doesn't work as expected. We have several instances in our own >> study, where the tested markers show no close match to any of the >> other tested participants. This can be explained in a couple >> ways... either by the emergence of an totally new line carrying the >> surname, or by a case of surname adoption. >> >> Another test, which we as a group have not utilized, is the mtDNA >> test. mtDNA is located in the mitochondria, small organelles in the >> cell which carry separate DNA which really doesn't play into the >> genetic code of organisms. However, the characteristic of mtDNA >> which makes it useful for genealogical purposes is that it is passed >> from *mother* to offspring. Therefore, it us useful in tracing >> maternal lines for both men and women. >> >> Neither of these tests is definitive for Native American ancestry, as >> far as I know. However, if there is a definite haplotype associated >> with Native American ancestry, then either of the two main tests >> could provide a match to that haplotype and, as a result, possibly >> confirm Native American ancestry. But I really am unfamiliar with >> this depth of research. I know that my ancestry through the >> Lovelaces leads back to Europe and is not a match for the Native >> American haplotype. >> >> Maybe Jack, David, or Lou Ann could hop in here at this point with a >> better, more detailed explanation. >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> Peace, >> Part of the Tree, >> Greg >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
Nancy and Jimmie, Yes, Nancy, you are correct. And yes, Jimmie, we have indeed had a few "surprises" from the yDNA (paternal line) testing--especially in my own instance. The real expert on DNA testing, of course, is our esteemed cousin David Wilson, but as he may not be able to chip in here, I will do what I can, with my own limited knowledge, and ask that our listmaster Greg please feel free to correct me as needed. I have spent the better part of the last two years furiously learning everything I could about yDNA testing and analyzing the results, but as I have mainly been dealing with so-called "I" haplogroups (since most of my lines belong to this unusual group), I cannot even begin to call myself competent to discuss other unrelated haplogroups (such as R1b, or Q, etc.). I think what Jimmie means when he says that "with current archeology evidence the native peoples also came from Europe although much earlier," is the fact that several of the eastern seaboard groups of Native Americans (particularly the Eastern Band of Cherokee) have for many years firmly believed that they sprang from European stock, long before known colonization from Europe took place. Currently, though, genetic studies (to my knowledge) have not yet (alas) confirmed any of this belief, tending, rather, to show, as Nancy put it, an Asiatic origin for most of these peoples. I recall reading, not long ago, that the locus of origin for most living Native Americans was somewhere in Northeast Asia, in the area of the Amur River of Northern China, along the borders with Russia and North Korea. This comes from yDNA comparisons between a cross-section of living Native Americans, and living peoples from that area of Asia (and elsewhere). Not only this, but there is indeed an element of current Archaeology which does now suggest that it is possible that some of the eastern Native groups may have had some level of influx from European yDNA (or at least culture--a much more difficult thing to prove!) in pre-historic times. Groups suggested as origin points for this influence include the ancient Vikings, Libyans, Irish, etc. There is a variety of evidence arrayed to support these claims, including alphabetical, linguistic, lexicographical, archaeological, and semantic. I must stress, however, that this is not yet a fully accepted or mainstream view within the archaeological field (nor do I myself necessarily agree with it). As some of you may know, Dr. Barry Fell, with his book "America B.C.," was the first to popularize this idea (some years ago). However (and I will explain this), occasionally some Native Americans do indeed show up with European yDNA haplotypes. The most likely explanation for this is historical instances (i.e., within the period of European colonization) of intermarriage with male European lines. Examples of how this can have occurred are: when a European/American male colonist took a native wife, with their descendants identifying as "Native" rather than "Colonial American"; or (equally possible), sad cases of rape of Native women by European/American males (and these probably did occur, at least on a small scale). Adoptions, and/or cases of so-called "kidnapping" of European/American colonial children by Native tribes (and this did sometimes happen, from what we know from the historical record) could also explain the presence of European haplotypes among living "Native" groups. I know all of this may not be popular with people who have a belief agenda they wish to find evidence to support, but I myself believe that in the search for scientific "truth," we must always make the theories fit the available evidence, not vice-versa, and hope that all of you can agree. Best regards to all, Terry --- On Mon, 7/19/10, Nancy Ross <nlwross@hotmail.com> wrote: From: Nancy Ross <nlwross@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA To: "lovelace" <lovelace@rootsweb.com> Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 12:11 AM Jimmie- First, the American Indians did not come from Europe but from Asia and thousands of years before the Europeans came. YDNA is most useful to genealogy use for several reasons-it follows the surname, it is what has been tested the most, and all records use the surname of the man involved. In a well developed surname study the chances of getting matches are pretty good. MtDNA follows the mother, has not been used a lot, female names back several generations, as we all know are very difficult to find, and rarely is the female name on land records, etc. This makes it very much less useful. The chance of getting a match to a name that means anything to the donor is almost minuscule. Either test will give you a good idea of where your ancestors originated in a general area-for instance my MtDNA told me my family came from norther Europe and the British Isles-no surprise since I was following Taylor-Ruble-Tyler-Gillespie-Sims (Mother-grandmother-grgrandmother-etc). I tested because I wanted to find out if I had Indian blood-but since have realized this test did not follow the line that I thought might be Indian, which is my mother's fraternal line, not her maternal line. The only way I can test this line is to find a male descendant of the line to be tested. Nancy Welty Ross > From: jimmie.ryan@verizon.net > To: lovelace@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 18:02:46 -0700 > Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA > > Thanks cousin, did know about the surname part of DNA, yet was unsure of the > mtDNA which I already understood to be passed by the mother to the child. I > too am confused as to its use, maybe the other cousins with more experience > then I with this DNA thing can give us laymen an idea of how the Indian > Nations today are using DNA to find other tribal members and/or to prove > Indian Heritage like the Cherokee Nation. We know all or most of the > settlers of the new world (or east coast at least) came from Europe; with > current archeology evidence the native peoples also came from Europe > although much earlier, yet as you said the list is only looking at Surnames > to match a "known" family lines (well we have had a few with some surprises, > right cousin Terry) within the Lovelace (Loveless) lines; or we discover a > new line completely relying on DNA research from DNA World Project. My > question to your Gregg is what did you mean by: "That's not correct?" You > say the list is only "tracing the ancestry of the surname," which I had > originally stated; you clearly (and very well put forth) stated that the > groups DNA research "have not utilized" the mtDNA testing. I suppose this > new DNA science continues to evolve and change and the definitions happen > faster than we can keep up with it. > > I guess my question was: > > Haplogroup Q3, Q or C3; as stated by Betsy, where would this be when someone > has a DNA test, would these value be listed with this "male to male > offspring" orientated test or would this Haplogroup be only in the mtDNA > testing procedure? Haplogroup Q3,Q, or C3 would be present in both forms of > testing or not, this confusion comes from seeing the result of the marker > test and not seeing this "Q" value where does the Q3 et al value come from? > > Sorry I do not mean to be ignorant, yet this science is very confusing and I > suppose I was just curious now that there seems to be evidence that the > Eastern bands of Native American (I suppose they are known as the Five > Civilized Tribes) did in fact come from Europe; then would not those Indian > group also have the European Haplotypes present when we test the "surname > DNA test?" This is the confusing part of this for me; say like when the > discovery channel's latest series on the Origins of Native Peoples of North > American shows that western native people seem to come from China (Orient); > with the eastern native people coming over (or following the ice sheets) an > ice/land bridge from Europe centuries before our "New World history that we > were taught in school (1950 history)?" How do they make the difference from > native groups of euro-originated Native Americans to the ones that have > European DNA values as they were immigrates (after 1492) to the new world - > if that makes sense at all. > > Thanks again cousin for the explanation, I do really appreciate it. It > explains a lot for me and gives me the generalities in outline form for me > to follow, except for my curiosity of what the difference is between > European Haplotype and the North/Southern Hemisphere Haplotype values are > derived from. > > Cuz Jimmie > > -----Original Message----- > From: lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Greg Lovelace > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 3:35 PM > To: lovelace@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA > > At 03:55 PM 7/18/2010, Jimmie Ryan wrote: > >Is there a difference between the female and male DNA test when it relates > >to markers on results? Our Lovelace list has primarily male DNA test, we > do > >not collect any female DNA data for the purposes of determining Indian > >lineage? Am I correct in assuming that it is the female line that carries > >that DNA strand and not the male line? > > That's not correct, Jimmie. Our Lovelace DNA project was developed > mainly to trace the ancestry of those with the > surname. Traditionally, surnames are passed from fathers to their > offspring, with mothers adopting the surname of the father. So if > you examine the DNA of males with the surname, you are in effect > tracing the passage of the surname down from father to son. This is > done by examining specific markers on the y-chromosome, which is > passed only from father to son. There are times, however, when this > doesn't work as expected. We have several instances in our own > study, where the tested markers show no close match to any of the > other tested participants. This can be explained in a couple > ways... either by the emergence of an totally new line carrying the > surname, or by a case of surname adoption. > > Another test, which we as a group have not utilized, is the mtDNA > test. mtDNA is located in the mitochondria, small organelles in the > cell which carry separate DNA which really doesn't play into the > genetic code of organisms. However, the characteristic of mtDNA > which makes it useful for genealogical purposes is that it is passed > from *mother* to offspring. Therefore, it us useful in tracing > maternal lines for both men and women. > > Neither of these tests is definitive for Native American ancestry, as > far as I know. However, if there is a definite haplotype associated > with Native American ancestry, then either of the two main tests > could provide a match to that haplotype and, as a result, possibly > confirm Native American ancestry. But I really am unfamiliar with > this depth of research. I know that my ancestry through the > Lovelaces leads back to Europe and is not a match for the Native > American haplotype. > > Maybe Jack, David, or Lou Ann could hop in here at this point with a > better, more detailed explanation. > > Hope this helps. > > Peace, > Part of the Tree, > Greg > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Jimmie- First, the American Indians did not come from Europe but from Asia and thousands of years before the Europeans came. YDNA is most useful to genealogy use for several reasons-it follows the surname, it is what has been tested the most, and all records use the surname of the man involved. In a well developed surname study the chances of getting matches are pretty good. MtDNA follows the mother, has not been used a lot, female names back several generations, as we all know are very difficult to find, and rarely is the female name on land records, etc. This makes it very much less useful. The chance of getting a match to a name that means anything to the donor is almost minuscule. Either test will give you a good idea of where your ancestors originated in a general area-for instance my MtDNA told me my family came from norther Europe and the British Isles-no surprise since I was following Taylor-Ruble-Tyler-Gillespie-Sims (Mother-grandmother-grgrandmother-etc). I tested because I wanted to find out if I had Indian blood-but since have realized this test did not follow the line that I thought might be Indian, which is my mother's fraternal line, not her maternal line. The only way I can test this line is to find a male descendant of the line to be tested. Nancy Welty Ross > From: jimmie.ryan@verizon.net > To: lovelace@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 18:02:46 -0700 > Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA > > Thanks cousin, did know about the surname part of DNA, yet was unsure of the > mtDNA which I already understood to be passed by the mother to the child. I > too am confused as to its use, maybe the other cousins with more experience > then I with this DNA thing can give us laymen an idea of how the Indian > Nations today are using DNA to find other tribal members and/or to prove > Indian Heritage like the Cherokee Nation. We know all or most of the > settlers of the new world (or east coast at least) came from Europe; with > current archeology evidence the native peoples also came from Europe > although much earlier, yet as you said the list is only looking at Surnames > to match a "known" family lines (well we have had a few with some surprises, > right cousin Terry) within the Lovelace (Loveless) lines; or we discover a > new line completely relying on DNA research from DNA World Project. My > question to your Gregg is what did you mean by: "That's not correct?" You > say the list is only "tracing the ancestry of the surname," which I had > originally stated; you clearly (and very well put forth) stated that the > groups DNA research "have not utilized" the mtDNA testing. I suppose this > new DNA science continues to evolve and change and the definitions happen > faster than we can keep up with it. > > I guess my question was: > > Haplogroup Q3, Q or C3; as stated by Betsy, where would this be when someone > has a DNA test, would these value be listed with this "male to male > offspring" orientated test or would this Haplogroup be only in the mtDNA > testing procedure? Haplogroup Q3,Q, or C3 would be present in both forms of > testing or not, this confusion comes from seeing the result of the marker > test and not seeing this "Q" value where does the Q3 et al value come from? > > Sorry I do not mean to be ignorant, yet this science is very confusing and I > suppose I was just curious now that there seems to be evidence that the > Eastern bands of Native American (I suppose they are known as the Five > Civilized Tribes) did in fact come from Europe; then would not those Indian > group also have the European Haplotypes present when we test the "surname > DNA test?" This is the confusing part of this for me; say like when the > discovery channel's latest series on the Origins of Native Peoples of North > American shows that western native people seem to come from China (Orient); > with the eastern native people coming over (or following the ice sheets) an > ice/land bridge from Europe centuries before our "New World history that we > were taught in school (1950 history)?" How do they make the difference from > native groups of euro-originated Native Americans to the ones that have > European DNA values as they were immigrates (after 1492) to the new world - > if that makes sense at all. > > Thanks again cousin for the explanation, I do really appreciate it. It > explains a lot for me and gives me the generalities in outline form for me > to follow, except for my curiosity of what the difference is between > European Haplotype and the North/Southern Hemisphere Haplotype values are > derived from. > > Cuz Jimmie > > -----Original Message----- > From: lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Greg Lovelace > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 3:35 PM > To: lovelace@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA > > At 03:55 PM 7/18/2010, Jimmie Ryan wrote: > >Is there a difference between the female and male DNA test when it relates > >to markers on results? Our Lovelace list has primarily male DNA test, we > do > >not collect any female DNA data for the purposes of determining Indian > >lineage? Am I correct in assuming that it is the female line that carries > >that DNA strand and not the male line? > > That's not correct, Jimmie. Our Lovelace DNA project was developed > mainly to trace the ancestry of those with the > surname. Traditionally, surnames are passed from fathers to their > offspring, with mothers adopting the surname of the father. So if > you examine the DNA of males with the surname, you are in effect > tracing the passage of the surname down from father to son. This is > done by examining specific markers on the y-chromosome, which is > passed only from father to son. There are times, however, when this > doesn't work as expected. We have several instances in our own > study, where the tested markers show no close match to any of the > other tested participants. This can be explained in a couple > ways... either by the emergence of an totally new line carrying the > surname, or by a case of surname adoption. > > Another test, which we as a group have not utilized, is the mtDNA > test. mtDNA is located in the mitochondria, small organelles in the > cell which carry separate DNA which really doesn't play into the > genetic code of organisms. However, the characteristic of mtDNA > which makes it useful for genealogical purposes is that it is passed > from *mother* to offspring. Therefore, it us useful in tracing > maternal lines for both men and women. > > Neither of these tests is definitive for Native American ancestry, as > far as I know. However, if there is a definite haplotype associated > with Native American ancestry, then either of the two main tests > could provide a match to that haplotype and, as a result, possibly > confirm Native American ancestry. But I really am unfamiliar with > this depth of research. I know that my ancestry through the > Lovelaces leads back to Europe and is not a match for the Native > American haplotype. > > Maybe Jack, David, or Lou Ann could hop in here at this point with a > better, more detailed explanation. > > Hope this helps. > > Peace, > Part of the Tree, > Greg > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Betsy- The MtDNA test can't be messed up by another family. MtDNA follows your mother-her mother-her mother-her mother-her mother, etc. This is the same way a Y DNA test works-a man's father-his father-his father- his father, etc. The Sliger DNA will test that donor's direct line, whether YDNA or MtDNA, whichever type of test that is chosen. Keep in mind that the MtDNA can be passed to a son by his mother, BUT is NOT passed down to that son's son. So it can only be passed to one male generation. So, pick your Sliger donor carefully-be sure you pick one with the "right" mother, who is the line you want- if it will be an MtDNA test. Nancy Welty Ross > Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 18:29:53 -0700 > From: betsyloveless@att.net > To: lovelace@rootsweb.com > Subject: [LL] Mtdna > > Cousin Jimmie, > > I will be testing my Mtdna so should see a report they said in abou 8-10 weeks. Also finishing up my brother's Lawrence G to to 67 marker. All this Dna is so interesting that I am going to see about asking the Smith cousin side to do it. I am going to try and track down a Sliger male to do one if I can find one. Question that springs to mind will be that I am from the RI group whom also seems to have had a Sliger that married into the group. Wonder if that messes up the test. All this is facinating. Has any one counted how many Williams that show in the family? > Or how about Pasters seems to be a lot. > > Betsy > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
The doctor wrote what he heard-no one spelled it out for him. The source probably had an accent. and he probably didn't write it down at the time and did it from memory. Ariel=Royal and Carlton= Holden. This works really well if the source of the data didn't pronounce the r's. (are-el and all-den) Nancy Welty Ross Researching:Welty,Whaling,Allen,Buck, Lovelace,Doyle,Taylor,Greer,Ruble,Tyler,West,Rankin IL/TN/NC/VA/KY/MD/PA > Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 21:45:12 -0400 > To: lovelace@rootsweb.com > From: greglovelace@comcast.net > Subject: [LL] [PML] Loveless family of Poultney, VT > > > >Source: VTRUTLAN@rootsweb.com > >Subject: Re: [VTRUT] Loveless family of Poultney, VT > > > > > >This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > > >Author: bussonmitting > >Surnames: > >Classification: queries > > > >Message Board URL: > > > >http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states.vermont.counties.rutland/339.2.1.2/mb.ashx > > > >Message Board Post: > > > >I just obtained death certificates for Hannah Tennant Loveless and > >her husband Sylvester Loveless, my great grandparents. Every site > >I've searched showed Sylvester's parents as Ariel Loveless and > >Delilah Carlton. The death certificates show his parents as Royal > >Loveless and Delilah Holden. Thoughts anyone?? > > > >Important Note: > >The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If > >you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board > >URL link above and respond on the board. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
At 09:02 PM 7/18/2010, Jimmie wrote: >I guess my question was: > >Haplogroup Q3, Q or C3; as stated by Betsy, where would this be when someone >has a DNA test, would these value be listed with this "male to male >offspring" orientated test or would this Haplogroup be only in the mtDNA >testing procedure? Haplogroup Q3,Q, or C3 would be present in both forms of >testing or not, this confusion comes from seeing the result of the marker >test and not seeing this "Q" value where does the Q3 et al value come from? Hey, Jimmie... I'm sorry, cuz... I guess I'm just as confused as you are. The Haplogroup we belong to goes back much further than the tests we are looking at, or at least that is my understanding. I just checked the FTDNA pages, and the haplogroup *is* listed in the results, just not with the marker matches. Go to this page and read about haplogroups: http://www.familytreedna.com/snps-r-us.aspx The haplogroup is listed under the heading "Y-DNA results" on the test subjects FTDNA page, and can be found by clicking on the link that says "Haplotree". Mine states that I belong to haplogroup R1b1b2. What this actually means is mostly unclear to me, except that the group arose in Europe in prehistoric times. You were asking about DNA testing for native American tribes. I googled and found some interesting links. Try some of these and see if they might answer some of your questions: http://www.manataka.org/page267.html http://www.comanchelodge.com/cherokee-blood.html http://www.healthanddna.com/ancestry-dna-testing/native-american-dna.html http://genealogical-research-methods.suite101.com/article.cfm/dna_testing_for_native_american_ancestry These should get you started. Hope it helps. Peace, Part of the Tree, Greg
>Source: VTRUTLAN@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [VTRUT] Loveless family of Poultney, VT > > >This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > >Author: bussonmitting >Surnames: >Classification: queries > >Message Board URL: > >http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states.vermont.counties.rutland/339.2.1.2/mb.ashx > >Message Board Post: > >I just obtained death certificates for Hannah Tennant Loveless and >her husband Sylvester Loveless, my great grandparents. Every site >I've searched showed Sylvester's parents as Ariel Loveless and >Delilah Carlton. The death certificates show his parents as Royal >Loveless and Delilah Holden. Thoughts anyone?? > >Important Note: >The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If >you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board >URL link above and respond on the board.
At 03:55 PM 7/18/2010, Jimmie Ryan wrote: >Is there a difference between the female and male DNA test when it relates >to markers on results? Our Lovelace list has primarily male DNA test, we do >not collect any female DNA data for the purposes of determining Indian >lineage? Am I correct in assuming that it is the female line that carries >that DNA strand and not the male line? That's not correct, Jimmie. Our Lovelace DNA project was developed mainly to trace the ancestry of those with the surname. Traditionally, surnames are passed from fathers to their offspring, with mothers adopting the surname of the father. So if you examine the DNA of males with the surname, you are in effect tracing the passage of the surname down from father to son. This is done by examining specific markers on the y-chromosome, which is passed only from father to son. There are times, however, when this doesn't work as expected. We have several instances in our own study, where the tested markers show no close match to any of the other tested participants. This can be explained in a couple ways... either by the emergence of an totally new line carrying the surname, or by a case of surname adoption. Another test, which we as a group have not utilized, is the mtDNA test. mtDNA is located in the mitochondria, small organelles in the cell which carry separate DNA which really doesn't play into the genetic code of organisms. However, the characteristic of mtDNA which makes it useful for genealogical purposes is that it is passed from *mother* to offspring. Therefore, it us useful in tracing maternal lines for both men and women. Neither of these tests is definitive for Native American ancestry, as far as I know. However, if there is a definite haplotype associated with Native American ancestry, then either of the two main tests could provide a match to that haplotype and, as a result, possibly confirm Native American ancestry. But I really am unfamiliar with this depth of research. I know that my ancestry through the Lovelaces leads back to Europe and is not a match for the Native American haplotype. Maybe Jack, David, or Lou Ann could hop in here at this point with a better, more detailed explanation. Hope this helps. Peace, Part of the Tree, Greg
Cousin Jimmie, I will be testing my Mtdna so should see a report they said in abou 8-10 weeks. Also finishing up my brother's Lawrence G to to 67 marker. All this Dna is so interesting that I am going to see about asking the Smith cousin side to do it. I am going to try and track down a Sliger male to do one if I can find one. Question that springs to mind will be that I am from the RI group whom also seems to have had a Sliger that married into the group. Wonder if that messes up the test. All this is facinating. Has any one counted how many Williams that show in the family? Or how about Pasters seems to be a lot. Betsy
Thanks cousin, did know about the surname part of DNA, yet was unsure of the mtDNA which I already understood to be passed by the mother to the child. I too am confused as to its use, maybe the other cousins with more experience then I with this DNA thing can give us laymen an idea of how the Indian Nations today are using DNA to find other tribal members and/or to prove Indian Heritage like the Cherokee Nation. We know all or most of the settlers of the new world (or east coast at least) came from Europe; with current archeology evidence the native peoples also came from Europe although much earlier, yet as you said the list is only looking at Surnames to match a "known" family lines (well we have had a few with some surprises, right cousin Terry) within the Lovelace (Loveless) lines; or we discover a new line completely relying on DNA research from DNA World Project. My question to your Gregg is what did you mean by: "That's not correct?" You say the list is only "tracing the ancestry of the surname," which I had originally stated; you clearly (and very well put forth) stated that the groups DNA research "have not utilized" the mtDNA testing. I suppose this new DNA science continues to evolve and change and the definitions happen faster than we can keep up with it. I guess my question was: Haplogroup Q3, Q or C3; as stated by Betsy, where would this be when someone has a DNA test, would these value be listed with this "male to male offspring" orientated test or would this Haplogroup be only in the mtDNA testing procedure? Haplogroup Q3,Q, or C3 would be present in both forms of testing or not, this confusion comes from seeing the result of the marker test and not seeing this "Q" value where does the Q3 et al value come from? Sorry I do not mean to be ignorant, yet this science is very confusing and I suppose I was just curious now that there seems to be evidence that the Eastern bands of Native American (I suppose they are known as the Five Civilized Tribes) did in fact come from Europe; then would not those Indian group also have the European Haplotypes present when we test the "surname DNA test?" This is the confusing part of this for me; say like when the discovery channel's latest series on the Origins of Native Peoples of North American shows that western native people seem to come from China (Orient); with the eastern native people coming over (or following the ice sheets) an ice/land bridge from Europe centuries before our "New World history that we were taught in school (1950 history)?" How do they make the difference from native groups of euro-originated Native Americans to the ones that have European DNA values as they were immigrates (after 1492) to the new world - if that makes sense at all. Thanks again cousin for the explanation, I do really appreciate it. It explains a lot for me and gives me the generalities in outline form for me to follow, except for my curiosity of what the difference is between European Haplotype and the North/Southern Hemisphere Haplotype values are derived from. Cuz Jimmie -----Original Message----- From: lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Greg Lovelace Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 3:35 PM To: lovelace@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LL] Indian blood and DNA At 03:55 PM 7/18/2010, Jimmie Ryan wrote: >Is there a difference between the female and male DNA test when it relates >to markers on results? Our Lovelace list has primarily male DNA test, we do >not collect any female DNA data for the purposes of determining Indian >lineage? Am I correct in assuming that it is the female line that carries >that DNA strand and not the male line? That's not correct, Jimmie. Our Lovelace DNA project was developed mainly to trace the ancestry of those with the surname. Traditionally, surnames are passed from fathers to their offspring, with mothers adopting the surname of the father. So if you examine the DNA of males with the surname, you are in effect tracing the passage of the surname down from father to son. This is done by examining specific markers on the y-chromosome, which is passed only from father to son. There are times, however, when this doesn't work as expected. We have several instances in our own study, where the tested markers show no close match to any of the other tested participants. This can be explained in a couple ways... either by the emergence of an totally new line carrying the surname, or by a case of surname adoption. Another test, which we as a group have not utilized, is the mtDNA test. mtDNA is located in the mitochondria, small organelles in the cell which carry separate DNA which really doesn't play into the genetic code of organisms. However, the characteristic of mtDNA which makes it useful for genealogical purposes is that it is passed from *mother* to offspring. Therefore, it us useful in tracing maternal lines for both men and women. Neither of these tests is definitive for Native American ancestry, as far as I know. However, if there is a definite haplotype associated with Native American ancestry, then either of the two main tests could provide a match to that haplotype and, as a result, possibly confirm Native American ancestry. But I really am unfamiliar with this depth of research. I know that my ancestry through the Lovelaces leads back to Europe and is not a match for the Native American haplotype. Maybe Jack, David, or Lou Ann could hop in here at this point with a better, more detailed explanation. Hope this helps. Peace, Part of the Tree, Greg ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
I'm Virgil Lovelace and so was my dad. I know of one other one, an early postmaster in Lovelaceville KY. How can I help you, V P Lovelace On Sun, July 18, 2010 7:13 am, gc-gateway@rootsweb.com wrote: > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > Author: patlyonmccann > Surnames: Lyon, Franssen, Pettit > Classification: queries > > Message Board URL: > > http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.lovelace/737/mb.ashx > > Message Board Post: > > Only know the name. Birth? Marriage? Death? Worked on a ship. Went to > college in California when 70. May have been married to Dorothy LYON > Pettit (1902-1982)from New Jersey. > > Important Note: > The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you > would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link > above and respond on the board. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >
The brother above me has blonde hair and blue eyes; his grandmother was full blood Choctaw; along with his father and the Glass family lived on the reservation in Oklahoma and was on the Dawes Rolls. Most of my family (Brown/Gotcher) lived on the Choctaw reservation between 1883 - 1889, including my gg grandmother Susan Gotcher Brown who was the niece of Chief Sitting Bull who ran the Choctaw Nation prior to statehood. We need to remember there were some Indian's that sided with the French and were outcasts when the British took over parts of what was the old French empire in the new world. Many mixed raced people lived in white settled area until they could no longer pass for white and moved westward (especially after the Civil War). Many arrived in Oklahoma and still considered themselves to be white as they lived next to their Indian cousins. I have two Trail of Tears oral histories in my family; along with the oral history of our relationship to the Shawnee and Choctaw. The Dawes Rolls that were later found to be have been corrupted by money interests and there were many that did not have any Indian blood, just connections to who was taken the "official count." We also have to remember the great struggle between France, Spain, and Britain over this continent and the Indian Nations that were caught either on the wrong side; or were just destroyed by diseases brought here by the European settlers and explorers that decreased the documentation and our present day abilities to determine who in fact were in the "frontier wives" of this country; and who intermarried with the natives (frontier settlers, prior to colonial take-over). I am sure there were many Scots that came here without their wives and took native women; then only to make themselves either more conforming to the town as it became more settled; or they just pick up everything and moved west to keep the knowledge of their mixed heritage. It seems in most of my readings of this the French took better to living with the natives then the British did; thus, you saw the Trails of Tears and removal of the Indian Nations westward when full control came to the British Empire. When I was read the "Martin's Fort" summary I noticed a John Townsend in the garrison, Lou Ann is there a reason that names stand out for me? Jimmie in Melting SoCal -----Original Message----- From: lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of ginnyo Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 11:08 AM To: lovelace@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LL] Cherokee Blood Teri, Thank you for the wonderful information. And, Mary, I also agree with your input about what an Indian looks like....I have a neice by marriage (not Lovelace related) that is high enough percentage Cherokee that she is on the records and she has sandy blonde hair and blue eyes. She has an Aunt living on the reservation in Cherokee, NC. (I believe the Aunt in on her Mom's side of the family). GinnyO (from the Rutherford County NC Lovelace's) ----- Original Message ----- From: <ptsteiner1@juno.com> To: <lovelace@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [LL] Cherokee Blood > > > > My Lovelace side has a lot of Cherokee and some Choctaw. I'm from the > Wayne County, KY Lovelaces. We go back to John Lovelace Sr. (1801) who > married Mary Polly Cooper (1798). Mary's Father was a Choctaw chief and > her Grandfather was a Cherokee Chief Enola Black Fox. They are listed on > the Old Settler's List and Chief Black Fox was removed to and Indian > Reservation in Oklahoma. There are still Black Fox family members there > today. My Grandfather had no idea that he was at all Indian. I thought > like some others on the list that there was no way he was Cherokee. He > claimed to be Scottish through and through - black hair and blue eyes. He > never knew his birth name was Fox Ford Lovelace until he received a draft > notice at age 18. Even then, he didn't know where the name came from. His > Irish granny never told him her husband came from a chief. From what I > know, the only British people who intermarried with Cherokees were the > Scottish, Irish and Welsh. The English considered it ben! > eath them for the most part. All I am saying is that there is a lot we > don't know about our families. It was someone on the Lovelace that told me > years ago that my GG Grandfather, Fox Fontaine Lovelace was Cherokee. I > argued with them that he had black hair and blue eyes and there was no > way. Then I started on a path that has never stopped amazing me because of > the wealth of info available. > > Teri Steiner > >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.830 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3006 - Release Date: 07/14/10 >> 22:26:00 >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ____________________________________________________________ > Penny Stock Jumping 2000% > Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c410faa13b330005fst05duc > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message