Mornin' Cuzzies, San Antonio is known for its river that runs right in the middle of downtownw/ all kinds of festive shops and restaurants surrounding it and boats cruiseup and down the river. Here is a picture of it dressed up in its Christmas attire: http://family.webshots.com/photo/1515146384015600326LymLPw#commentForm Really a fun place! Most of the *inside the beltway* name calling of "racial prejudice" just haven't venturedinto San Antonio. Here's what one would hear on the river.....most who live there arebilingual. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcexJQM-8W0&feature=youtu.be Off doing mah thing.....y'all have a good one! Susan

----- Forwarded Message ----- From: gc-gateway@rootsweb.com To: LOVELESS-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, December 9, 2010 11:22:17 PM Subject: [LOVELESS] W. Carl Loveless of Itasca, TX 1908 This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: drbrownlee Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.loveless/497/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Carl is pictured in the 1908 yearbook of Southwestern University in Georgetown, Texas, and is a junior. I'm not kin but thought this might help someone researching the family. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.   ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELESS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

You've got my attention, now. I'll have to go back over what's been said, if you say he's related to Young Lovelace. Carolyn On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 12:35 PM, Jack D. Lovelace < lovelacejackd@verizon.net> wrote: > Kit No. 25740 for Robert W. Loveless is in the DYS 439 (12) group. Which > means that he is somehow related to John Lovelace who married Nancy > Bohanan Lovelace and to Young Lovelace. > > Brondak@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 12/9/10 3:09:01 PM, lovelacejackd@verizon.net writes: > > > > > > > >> William's test is two off from the modal values of Maryland and four or > >> five off from the modal values of Dorsetshire (do not yet know the exact > >> modal values for Dorsetshire). > >> > >> It is possible that William is descended from somebody from Dorsetshire, > >> but they came to Kentucky via Maryland. > >> > >> > > > > Okay. My pet theory is back on. Out of curiousity how does he compare > > with > > those of the line of John who married Rachel Van Horn? > > Lou Ann > > > > > > > > -- > Jack D. Lovelace > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

FYI...William Steven is a "Loveless",not Lovelace.Does 5 off mean not directly related? Sorry for my lack of savvy in this. William Steven Loveless --- On Fri, 12/10/10, Jack D. Lovelace <lovelacejackd@verizon.net> wrote: From: Jack D. Lovelace <lovelacejackd@verizon.net> Subject: Re: [LL] DNA testing To: lovelace@rootsweb.com Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 1:39 PM Kit No. 25740 for Robert W. Loveless and Kit No. 173703 for William Steven Lovelace differ by five (5). Brondak@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/9/10 7:43:11 PM, 1_twig@comcast.net writes: > > >    >> Test #25740 Robert W. Loveless (the knife maker guy) is descended from >> John >> and Rachel Van Hook Loveless. He is in the MD group. >> >> This family did go to KY very early. These were the Loveless captured at >> Martin's fort and taken to Canada during the Rev. War. Some stayed in >> Ohio, >> some did return to KY after their release. >> >>      > > How close is his test to William's desc. of "Good Tom"? > Lou Ann >  > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >    -- Jack D. Lovelace ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Kit No. 25740 for Robert W. Loveless and Kit No. 173703 for William Steven Lovelace differ by five (5). Brondak@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/9/10 7:43:11 PM, 1_twig@comcast.net writes: > > > >> Test #25740 Robert W. Loveless (the knife maker guy) is descended from >> John >> and Rachel Van Hook Loveless. He is in the MD group. >> >> This family did go to KY very early. These were the Loveless captured at >> Martin's fort and taken to Canada during the Rev. War. Some stayed in >> Ohio, >> some did return to KY after their release. >> >> > > How close is his test to William's desc. of "Good Tom"? > Lou Ann > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > -- Jack D. Lovelace

Kit No. 25740 for Robert W. Loveless is in the DYS 439 (12) group. Which means that he is somehow related to John Lovelace who married Nancy Bohanan Lovelace and to Young Lovelace. Brondak@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/9/10 3:09:01 PM, lovelacejackd@verizon.net writes: > > > >> William's test is two off from the modal values of Maryland and four or >> five off from the modal values of Dorsetshire (do not yet know the exact >> modal values for Dorsetshire). >> >> It is possible that William is descended from somebody from Dorsetshire, >> but they came to Kentucky via Maryland. >> >> > > Okay. My pet theory is back on. Out of curiousity how does he compare > with > those of the line of John who married Rachel Van Horn? > Lou Ann > > > -- Jack D. Lovelace

Minnie <-William Perry Lovelace <-Thomas Eugene <-Nathan <-Asa <-Barton <-Benjamin The Star Shelby, NC December 9, 2010 Rachel Davis Costner CHERRYVILLE - Mrs. Rachel Davis Costner, 85, of 308 Baxter Road, graduated to her heavenly home, to be with her Lord and Savior on Dec. 7, 2010. She was born on May 11, 1925, the daughter of the late Garmon and Minnie Lovelace Davis. "Miss Rachel" as she was lovingly known, was a graduate of Bethware High School, a long time member of Mt. Zion Baptist Church, loving wife, mother, sister and grandmother. She was preceded in death by her parents; husband, Lee Costner; brothers, Herschel Davis, Norman Davis and a sister, Eunice Horne and two great- grandchildren, Casey and Stacy Mathis. She is survived by her sons and daughters-in-law, Dennis and Nancy Costner, Jerry and Sandra Costner, all of Cherryville; daughters and sons-in-law, Ruth and Eddie Causby, Linda and Clyde Sweezy, Ann and Tim Barrett, all of Cherryville; Darlene and Richard Goforth, of Watertown, N.Y.; brothers, Franklin Davis of Kings Mountain and Glenn Davis of Grover; sisters, Dorothy Grigg of Cherryville, Fairylee Coffee, of Ashville, Mozelle Justice and Sylia Stacy, both of King Mountain; 20 grandchildren and 31 great-grandchildren. She also leaves behind, special friends and caregivers, Odessa Roberts, Tracy Sweezy, Sandra Davis and Pam Ledford. Visitation: The family will receive friends from 6-8 p.m. Friday at Carpenter's Funeral Home Funeral: 11 a.m. Saturday at Mt. Zion Baptist Church Officiated by: The Rev.Wayne Key Lie in State: 30 minutes prior to the service Burial: Church Cemetery Funeral home: Carpenter's Funeral Home is serving the family Memorials: Mt. Zion Baptist Church, 112 Mt. Zion Church Road, Cherryville, N. C. 28021 and or to Hospice of Cleveland County, 951 Wendover Heights Drive, Shelby, N. C. 28150 Online Condolences: www.carpentersfuneralhome.net Published in Shelby Star on December 9, 2010

Lou Ann, none of these are my line. I'm Thomas R. Loveless, so I don't really have any other info on them other than what Treenutty and I collected when she talked Knife Guy out of some DNA, which we were hoping would match TRL, but of course it didn't. Linda Parsons In a message dated 12/9/10 7:43:11 PM, 1_twig@comcast.net writes: > Test #25740 Robert W. Loveless (the knife maker guy) is descended from > John > and Rachel Van Hook Loveless. He is in the MD group. > > This family did go to KY very early. These were the Loveless captured at > Martin's fort and taken to Canada during the Rev. War. Some stayed in > Ohio, > some did return to KY after their release. > How close is his test to William's desc. of "Good Tom"? Lou Ann ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Since I am reading all posts in an effort to learn I see the comment about the Lovelop I am sure most of you are now aware of the infamous leading s in old handwriting. I spend a lot of time as an Indiana INGenWeb web site coordinator for three different counties here in Indiana, so I transcribe bunches of original documents. I had a devil of a time until I figured it out. Here is a regular lower case "s" and another "s" that looks like a backward lower case "f." EXAMPLE Over 100 years ago the "s" was often written like a backward "f." This strange symbol for "s" was used very commonly in instances where there was a "double s." The unusual s first, called the "leading s." Then the regular s. So Loveless looking like Lovelop or Lovelep would be normal. Sheila Kell the new cuzin

In a message dated 12/9/10 7:48:18 PM, 1_twig@comcast.net writes: > http://www.van-hook.us/getperson.php?personID=I2186&tree=genuser > The following is the doc I was referring to earlier. 15 Jan 1780 (Cert S'd for 400 fees &c pd D. D. to Jas Dunkin) Joseph Lovlass by John Haggin this day claimed a preemption of 400 Acres of land at the State price in the district of Kentucky lying on the West fork of Coopers run adjoining William McGee on the s'd Fork by making an Actual settlement in the Month of March 1779 Satisfactory proof being made to the Court they are of Opinion that the s'd Lovelass has a right to a preemption of 400 Acres of land to include the above location & that a Cert issue accordingly. Then: © by Rhonda Robertson, 1998 - “”Page 280 - John Yancy...258 ac...on the waters of the north fork of Holstein River...Commissioners Certificate...Beginning on a spur of Walkers Mountain near a little lick, corner to Peter Sideburns land...corner to Watsons land...on Marklands corner...near Logans corner...February 26, 1785 - John Yancy, assignee of Andrew Johnson, assignee of Richard Brindle, assignee of ** John Lovelap ** ...400 ac...on a branch of the north fork of Holstein, includes improvements, 80 ac. surveyed on December 8, 1774 for Brindle...actual settlement made in 1774...August 27, 1781.”” I think this is may be a Loveless because every time I’ve seen a name indexed as “Lovelap” and have seen the original writing it has actually been Lovelass or Loveless. This land became John's. John and Rachel in 1778 named their first son Joseph. The older Joseph could be the father of John, but I've always wondered if they might have been brothers. There was another Lovelace in the vicinity of "Good Tom" and his name was William. Could William and Thomas be orphans of Joseph? William married Rebecca Cawood of the MD Cawoods. John Thomas married ROY sisters? Did he actually marry both Susannah and Virginia? At any rate they had a brother who married Mary Van Hook....a relative of Rachel Van Hook, but I don't remember how they are related. I need to go back and research this some more. It's been a while since I worked on this family and need to refresh my memory, but there are so many "coincidences" that I wonder if they can be that coincidental. Lou Ann

http://www.van-hook.us/getperson.php?personID=I2186&tree=genuser A good Van Hook page with info on Rachel's family. -----Original Message----- From: lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of 1_twig Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 8:41 PM To: lovelace@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LL] DNA testing Test #25740 Robert W. Loveless (the knife maker guy) is descended from John and Rachel Van Hook Loveless. He is in the MD group. This family did go to KY very early. These were the Loveless captured at Martin's fort and taken to Canada during the Rev. War. Some stayed in Ohio, some did return to KY after their release. Linda Parsons -----Original Message----- From: lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Brondak@aol.com Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 8:25 PM To: lovelace@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LL] DNA testing In a message dated 12/9/10 3:09:01 PM, lovelacejackd@verizon.net writes: > > > William's test is two off from the modal values of Maryland and four or > five off from the modal values of Dorsetshire (do not yet know the exact > modal values for Dorsetshire). > > It is possible that William is descended from somebody from Dorsetshire, > but they came to Kentucky via Maryland. > Okay. My pet theory is back on. Out of curiousity how does he compare with those of the line of John who married Rachel Van Horn? Don't we have someone from that line who has done DNA. I'm still wondering about the Joseph Lovelace whose name was on the land that John got in KY. Thinking John and Joseph might have been brothers and Joseph could have left orphans. Lou Ann ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 12/9/10 7:43:11 PM, 1_twig@comcast.net writes: > Test #25740 Robert W. Loveless (the knife maker guy) is descended from > John > and Rachel Van Hook Loveless. He is in the MD group. > > This family did go to KY very early. These were the Loveless captured at > Martin's fort and taken to Canada during the Rev. War. Some stayed in > Ohio, > some did return to KY after their release. > How close is his test to William's desc. of "Good Tom"? Lou Ann

Test #25740 Robert W. Loveless (the knife maker guy) is descended from John and Rachel Van Hook Loveless. He is in the MD group. This family did go to KY very early. These were the Loveless captured at Martin's fort and taken to Canada during the Rev. War. Some stayed in Ohio, some did return to KY after their release. Linda Parsons -----Original Message----- From: lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lovelace-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Brondak@aol.com Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 8:25 PM To: lovelace@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LL] DNA testing In a message dated 12/9/10 3:09:01 PM, lovelacejackd@verizon.net writes: > > > William's test is two off from the modal values of Maryland and four or > five off from the modal values of Dorsetshire (do not yet know the exact > modal values for Dorsetshire). > > It is possible that William is descended from somebody from Dorsetshire, > but they came to Kentucky via Maryland. > Okay. My pet theory is back on. Out of curiousity how does he compare with those of the line of John who married Rachel Van Horn? Don't we have someone from that line who has done DNA. I'm still wondering about the Joseph Lovelace whose name was on the land that John got in KY. Thinking John and Joseph might have been brothers and Joseph could have left orphans. Lou Ann ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 12/9/10 3:09:01 PM, lovelacejackd@verizon.net writes: > > > William's test is two off from the modal values of Maryland and four or > five off from the modal values of Dorsetshire (do not yet know the exact > modal values for Dorsetshire). > > It is possible that William is descended from somebody from Dorsetshire, > but they came to Kentucky via Maryland. > Okay. My pet theory is back on. Out of curiousity how does he compare with those of the line of John who married Rachel Van Horn? Don't we have someone from that line who has done DNA. I'm still wondering about the Joseph Lovelace whose name was on the land that John got in KY. Thinking John and Joseph might have been brothers and Joseph could have left orphans. Lou Ann

Carolyn is correct.  Our MD group DNA matches up with a Sue Doyle's brother (if memory doesn't fail me) who descends from a Dorchester Lovelace of the early 1700s.  This tells us that we probably descend from a common Dorset ancestor.  However, it's pretty clear that we don't descend from any of the Tolpuddle Martyrs.  The Martyrs were deported to Australia in the mid-1800s (again, if memory doesn't fail me).  It may be that the Martyrs share a common ancestor with us (just speculation unsupported by any data on hand right now here in AZ), but I think we can definitely say that none of the Lovelxxx families in the US are direct descendants of the Martyrs. Peace, Part of the Tree, Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn McCoy" <c2mccoy@gmail.com> To: lovelace@rootsweb.comt Sent: Thursday, December 9, 2010 10:40:28 AM Subject: Re: [LL] DNA testing I thought that by way of DNA the MD group traces back to Dorchester, England, and possibly the martyrs. Carolyn On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 8:08 AM, <Brondak@aol.com> wrote: > > In a message dated 12/7/10 12:16:52 AM, wsloveless@yahoo.com writes: > > > > My tests traced us back to the Dorchester England group,I like to > > think,possibly the Loveless Martyrs of England. > > > > Well, this blows my theory about him being part of the MD group.   Hmmmm. > The mystery > deepens.   Maybe he was the immigrant of this line.   Refresh me on the > martyrs.   When were > they arrested and deported to Australia? > Lou Ann > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >   ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

DNA test kit no. 118154 for Wesley G. Lovelace. Is this Wesley George Lovelace, son of George Garbert Lovelace and Frances Adridith Embanks? -- Jack D. Lovelace

Mornin' Cuzzies, And, the temp's down to a brisk 33 this morn, no wind. ( : We can deal w/ it. Every year I put out my very favorite Christmas u-tuber....I will watch the silly thingeach year at least 50 times, and it never fails to tickle the fire outta me! ( : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooc5eJc5SHA So, for those as nutty as I am, enjoy! For those of you who don't know what's going on.....because the Mainstream Mediadoesn't report anymore; they only editorialize or block news......South Texas is enjoyinga *massive* oil play. The biggest oil reservoir in the country has been discovered recentlybetween San Antonio and Laredo, and that's all anyone can talk about. Little farmers andfolks who are land owners are going to be like Saudi kings in the wealth department and ithas caused a huge flurry of excitement, particularly in San Antonio, where a lot of the moneywill come to be spent. Companies are moving in and taking up space in empty office buildings.Actually, Texas has not been hard hit economically.....we are just footing a huge bill state wide fora good deal of northern Mexico who has come to reside with us either for the economics orsafety. The Feds control the borders, but the states have to fund these people as to education,medical, and housing.....which gets mighty pricey considering the huge numbers we've got. I'm off on my ho, ho, ho way.....y'all have a good one! ( : Buckette

Lou Ann, William's test is two off from the modal values of Maryland and four or five off from the modal values of Dorsetshire (do not yet know the exact modal values for Dorsetshire). It is possible that William is descended from somebody from Dorsetshire, but they came to Kentucky via Maryland. Brondak@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/7/10 12:16:52 AM, wsloveless@yahoo.com writes: > > > >> My tests traced us back to the Dorchester England group,I like to >> think,possibly the Loveless Martyrs of England. >> >> > > Well, this blows my theory about him being part of the MD group. Hmmmm. > The mystery > deepens. Maybe he was the immigrant of this line. Refresh me on the > martyrs. When were > they arrested and deported to Australia? > Lou Ann > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > -- Jack D. Lovelace

I hope you are having fun in Arizona. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 9, 2010, at 11:10 AM, greglovelace@comcast.net wrote: > > > Carolyn is correct. Our MD group DNA matches up with a Sue Doyle's brother (if memory doesn't fail me) who descends from a Dorchester Lovelace of the early 1700s. This tells us that we probably descend from a common Dorset ancestor. However, it's pretty clear that we don't descend from any of the Tolpuddle Martyrs. The Martyrs were deported to Australia in the mid-1800s (again, if memory doesn't fail me). It may be that the Martyrs share a common ancestor with us (just speculation unsupported by any data on hand right now here in AZ), but I think we can definitely say that none of the Lovelxxx families in the US are direct descendants of the Martyrs. > > > > Peace, > > Part of the Tree, > > Greg > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carolyn McCoy" <c2mccoy@gmail.com> > To: lovelace@rootsweb.comt > Sent: Thursday, December 9, 2010 10:40:28 AM > Subject: Re: [LL] DNA testing > > I thought that by way of DNA the MD group traces back to Dorchester, > England, and possibly the martyrs. > > Carolyn > > > On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 8:08 AM, <Brondak@aol.com> wrote: > >> >> In a message dated 12/7/10 12:16:52 AM, wsloveless@yahoo.com writes: >> >> >>> My tests traced us back to the Dorchester England group,I like to >>> think,possibly the Loveless Martyrs of England. >>> >> >> Well, this blows my theory about him being part of the MD group. Hmmmm. >> The mystery >> deepens. Maybe he was the immigrant of this line. Refresh me on the >> martyrs. When were >> they arrested and deported to Australia? >> Lou Ann >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Buckette, I so much enjoy your daily emails. Today I just had to respond. Like you said and as usual the Main Stream Media (MSM) does not provide us the important news we need. It is so "scripted" it's pathetic. Another story not provided by the MSM is the issue of clean drinking water and the fact it is quickly becoming the new "oil". T. Boone Pickens the Texas oil billionaire recently bought up 100,000+ acres of land in east Texas because the largest aquafir (aka underground natural water reservoir) in that part of the country was found under that land. I heard him say he intended to sell it and "make a fortune". At the rate our clean water is disappearing it won't be long before we won't be able it afford it just like gasoline for our cars. Something has to give. I want to thank you for all the information you provide within your emails. As Lovelaces/lesses all over this country we should be able to depend on each other for news/info not provided in the MSM. It's important to our lives and who else can we depend on but caring family members. There's an old saying," you don't know there's an answer if you don't know there's a question." The only way we can get the information necessary to ask the hard questions is through someone who cares enough to let us know what's going on, especially in their local area or knowledge. Cuzzin Mary in WV ----- Original Message ----- From: <spice3@juno.com> To: <lovelace@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 8:12 AM Subject: Re: [LL] Thurs Dec 9, 2010 > Mornin' Cuzzies, And, the temp's down to a brisk 33 this morn, no wind. > ( : We can deal w/ it. Every year I put out my very favorite Christmas > u-tuber....I will watch the silly thingeach year at least 50 times, and it > never fails to tickle the fire outta me! ( : > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooc5eJc5SHA So, for those as nutty as I > am, enjoy! For those of you who don't know what's going on.....because > the Mainstream Mediadoesn't report anymore; they only editorialize or > block news......South Texas is enjoyinga *massive* oil play. The > biggest oil reservoir in the country has been discovered recentlybetween > San Antonio and Laredo, and that's all anyone can talk about. Little > farmers andfolks who are land owners are going to be like Saudi kings in > the wealth department and ithas caused a huge flurry of excitement, > particularly in San Antonio, where a lot of the moneywill come to be > spent. Companies are moving in and taking up space in empty office > buildings.Ac! > tually, Texas has not been hard hit economically.....we are just footing a > huge bill state wide fora good deal of northern Mexico who has come to > reside with us either for the economics orsafety. The Feds control the > borders, but the states have to fund these people as to education,medical, > and housing.....which gets mighty pricey considering the huge numbers > we've got. I'm off on my ho, ho, ho way.....y'all have a good one! ( : > Buckette > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LOVELACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message