Hi Mike, and Muriel, When I had my first child in the 70's, my grandmother, (a total matriarch), was adamant that I shouldn't go to visit any friends until I and the baby had been to be 'churched' (me) and the baby christened. This was in the North East, I don't know how commonplace it was generally, but it was within our family. I also have a burial record of a baby, who died shortly after birth, where it was noted that the child was buried in the churchyard, but without a church service, as the child had not been baptised. Such a sad little note. Kind regards, Yvonne (nee Sherlock) > On 2011/07/17 00:32, Murlel Sherlock wrote: > >> Another reason was, and this was very important back then ; That a child >> could not be taken out until it was baptised, hence PRIVATE BAPTISMS. > > Not heard that one before. How did the parents get the child to church for > a > normal baptism, if it couldn't be taken out until it had been baptised? > > -- > Regards, > Mike Fry > Johannesburg

Lister with ancestors in mid-Victorian east London may find http://www.victorianlondon.org/publications/sanitary.htm to be fascinating reading! John

Hi again One thing I seem to have missed mentioning Under documents required, always tick both yes boxes If writing request Will & Grant Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Hi Christine > > Actually it couldn't be much simpler really :-) > > You don't even need the form to be honest > > This applies to *all* wills from 1858 to date for England & Wales > > On the form enter surname & forename of the deceased

Hi Christine Actually it couldn't be much simpler really :-) You don't even need the form to be honest This applies to *all* wills from 1858 to date for England & Wales On the form enter surname & forename of the deceased Enter the date of death (if known) OR just the year As you have it, in the address box I would enter :- (From the 1893 probate Calendar) BENSON William of 4 Ellison-road Streatham common Surrey died 26 November 1893 Probate London 29 January to Elizabeth Edith White (wife of Charles Ernest White) Effects £660 (But its not necessary, just the County would suffice when known) Enter your name, address with post code (if used) I would add your email address and telephone number Thats it If all you knew is that XXX died in a given year that would be enough to request a search, the standard charge includes a four year search and copies A letter requesting copies of Will & Grant for XXX (persons name) who died XXXX (if known or approximate if not) Would be all you would need but I would advise checking the probate calendars first if at all possible Should there be no will the fee is non returnable Should it state "Administration was granted to" unless it specifically states "with will" it means the person died intestate and the letters of administration do not normally tell you much more, if anything, than the probate calendar Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Hi Nivard, > > Thanks for that. Why do they have to make it so complex? I have ordered wills from Cheshire and > Lancashire before and it is find your will, pay and it drops through the letter box. Here I am > struggling with this form. What is "Grant type"? I suppose the issuing registry is London. Is the > Grant issue date the probate date? Is the address the one on the death certificate? What is a DX > number? And Exchange? > > Can you translate for me please? > > Christine

Hi folk Another reason was, and this was very important back then ; That a child could not be taken out until it was baptised, hence PRIVATE BAPTISMS. Muriel ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Roberts" <david@roberts-productions.com> To: "Chris Gilham" <chrisgilham@hotmail.com> Cc: <london-l@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [LON] A Private Baptism? > Chris > This often refers to a baptism that was carried out in the home, perhaps > because of some medical condition, or if the child is thought likely to > die. > No doubt there might be other reasons too. > > David > > On 16 July 2011 13:29, Chris Gilham <chrisgilham@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> Hello Listers >> >> I have just discovered an ancestor whose baptism entry is shown as >> 'Private' - one other entry on the other side of the book is also >> Private; >> and there is another previous entry, which is a few pages back which is >> shown as Private, followed by brackets which appear to contain the words >> 'in >> danger'. My ancestor was George Hogg baptised 13th August 1859 in St >> Leornard's, Shoreditch. If anyone can shed any light on this I would >> appreciate it. >> >> Many thanks. >> >> Regards, >> >> Chris >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> This mailing list works in parallel with the London surname interest list >> on the web at http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/london.html . Check for >> matching interests and add your own ! >> >> Any problems, please contact the List Admin: LONDON-admin@rootsweb.com >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> LONDON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > This mailing list works in parallel with the London surname interest list > on the web at http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/london.html . Check for > matching interests and add your own ! > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: LONDON-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LONDON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Nivard, Thanks for that. Why do they have to make it so complex? I have ordered wills from Cheshire and Lancashire before and it is find your will, pay and it drops through the letter box. Here I am struggling with this form. What is "Grant type"? I suppose the issuing registry is London. Is the Grant issue date the probate date? Is the address the one on the death certificate? What is a DX number? And Exchange? Can you translate for me please? Christine -----Original Message----- From: Nivard Ovington Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 7:41 PM To: Christine Benson ; London Mailing List Subject: Re: [LON] Post 1858 wills Hi Christine All 1858 onwards wills can be ordered from http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/courts-and-tribunals/courts/probate/copies-of-grants-wills.htm If you found the entry on Ancestry there is a link there also (it does not go via Ancestry unlike their certificate orders) Look on the above page for form PA1S which has all the details Its now £6 Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) I have found the probate for William BENSON as below:- BENSON William of 4 Ellison-road Streatham common Surrey died 26 November 1893 Probate London 29 January to Elizabeth Edith White (wife of Charles Ernest White) Effects £660 Am I right in assuming there was a will and if so where do I find the right place to order it? Every index I look at only seems to go up to 1858 and whilst I understand the system changed, there must be a way of ordering post 1858 wills. Any advice/information gratefully appreciated. Christine

Hi Christine All 1858 onwards wills can be ordered from http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/courts-and-tribunals/courts/probate/copies-of-grants-wills.htm If you found the entry on Ancestry there is a link there also (it does not go via Ancestry unlike their certificate orders) Look on the above page for form PA1S which has all the details Its now £6 Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) I have found the probate for William BENSON as below:- BENSON William of 4 Ellison-road Streatham common Surrey died 26 November 1893 Probate London 29 January to Elizabeth Edith White (wife of Charles Ernest White) Effects £660 Am I right in assuming there was a will and if so where do I find the right place to order it? Every index I look at only seems to go up to 1858 and whilst I understand the system changed, there must be a way of ordering post 1858 wills. Any advice/information gratefully appreciated. Christine

I have found the probate for William BENSON as below:- BENSON William of 4 Ellison-road Streatham common Surrey died 26 November 1893 Probate London 29 January to Elizabeth Edith White (wife of Charles Ernest White) Effects £660 Am I right in assuming there was a will and if so where do I find the right place to order it? Every index I look at only seems to go up to 1858 and whilst I understand the system changed, there must be a way of ordering post 1858 wills. Any advice/information gratefully appreciated. Christine

On 2011/07/16 14:29, Chris Gilham wrote: > I have just discovered an ancestor whose baptism entry is shown as 'Private' > - one other entry on the other side of the book is also Private; and there is > another previous entry, which is a few pages back which is shown as Private, > followed by brackets which appear to contain the words 'in danger'. My > ancestor was George Hogg baptised 13th August 1859 in St Leornard's, > Shoreditch. If anyone can shed any light on this I would appreciate it. Child Mortality rates were high until the middle of the 20th century. Very often, children were baptised immediately after birth to ensure that they were named and 'known unto God'. If the child survived, the second part of a private baptism took place and is generally noted in the registers as 'received in church'. Sometimes this second part never happened. Either because the child died or the parents simply didn't bother. -- Regards, Mike Fry Johannesburg

Chris, Private baptisms were supposed to be done only when a child was in imminent danger of death. Then a priest would come to the house to baptise. Later, if the child survived the baptism would be 'completed' by reception into the congregation at church. That said, sometimes a family with money and influence would prefer to have its children baptised at home, rather than take them to mix with the hoi polloi in church. You will know which category your ancestor's family probably came into. :-)) HTH Anne On 16 Jul 2011, at 13:29, Chris Gilham wrote: > > > Hello Listers > > I have just discovered an ancestor whose baptism entry is shown as 'Private' - one other entry on the other side of the book is also Private; and there is another previous entry, which is a few pages back which is shown as Private, followed by brackets which appear to contain the words 'in danger'. My ancestor was George Hogg baptised 13th August 1859 in St Leornard's, Shoreditch. If anyone can shed any light on this I would appreciate it. > > Many thanks. > > Regards, > > Chris >

Chris This often refers to a baptism that was carried out in the home, perhaps because of some medical condition, or if the child is thought likely to die. No doubt there might be other reasons too. David On 16 July 2011 13:29, Chris Gilham <chrisgilham@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > Hello Listers > > I have just discovered an ancestor whose baptism entry is shown as > 'Private' - one other entry on the other side of the book is also Private; > and there is another previous entry, which is a few pages back which is > shown as Private, followed by brackets which appear to contain the words 'in > danger'. My ancestor was George Hogg baptised 13th August 1859 in St > Leornard's, Shoreditch. If anyone can shed any light on this I would > appreciate it. > > Many thanks. > > Regards, > > Chris > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > This mailing list works in parallel with the London surname interest list > on the web at http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/london.html . Check for > matching interests and add your own ! > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: LONDON-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LONDON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

Thank you all for your - very - prompt response! I checked with the death index and he died not long after his baptism so you were all spot on!! Thanks again. Regards, Chris

Hello Listers I have just discovered an ancestor whose baptism entry is shown as 'Private' - one other entry on the other side of the book is also Private; and there is another previous entry, which is a few pages back which is shown as Private, followed by brackets which appear to contain the words 'in danger'. My ancestor was George Hogg baptised 13th August 1859 in St Leornard's, Shoreditch. If anyone can shed any light on this I would appreciate it. Many thanks. Regards, Chris

Lori, Don't know whether anyone has answered this but... Only Thomas with a father Thomas is this one 1851 England Census about Thomas Roff Name: Thomas Roff Age: 5 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846 Relation: Son Father's name: Thos Roff Mother's name: Elizabeth Roff Gender: M (Male) Where born: Middlesex, England Civil parish: Bromley St Leonard County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street Address: 1 Charles St. Registration district: Poplar Sub-registration district: Bow ED, institution, or vessel: 2s Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 127 Piece: 1555 Folio: 555 Page Number: 34 Household Members: (all born Middlesex) Name Age Thos Roff 38 occupation: Lighterman Barge Elizabeth Roff 37 James Roff 20 Printers Block maker George Roff 17 cripple Elizabeth Roff 12 Thomas Roff 5 Mary Ann Roff 2 Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1555; Folio: 555; Page: 34; No sign in 1861 Anne On 8 Jul 2011, at 21:28, LORI ADKINS wrote: > Hello > > Would someone be kind enough to look up the 1851 and 1861 census for Thomas ROFF. I know he was born in London in 1844 but have no idea where in London.. > > Thomas's father was also Thomas ROFF a ship builder. I have no mothers name. > > Thomas jr arrived in New Zealand and was married there in 1869. > > Sorry to be so vague but this is all the information I have from the his death certificate. > > Kind Regards > Lori > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > This mailing list works in parallel with the London surname interest list on the web at http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/london.html . Check for matching interests and add your own ! > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: LONDON-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LONDON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

New Barnet ceased to be in Herts in 1965, when the London Borough of Barnet was created. Some cemeteries Paul might like to try are: East Finchley (formerly the St Marylebone Cemetery) St Pancras and Islington Cemetery (also in East Finchley, but not to be confused with the above) Hendon Mill Hill Golders Green (crematorium only). Hope this helps Caroline > Paul wrote > > > Still trying to find the burial or cremation of Nebat Osman Pickles > who > > died 6th June 1976 at New Barnet. > > I have tried New Southgate - no record of him there. > > New Barnet, Hertfordshire, England, a small north London suburb with a > variety of shops, public houses, restaurants, services and people. ... > > Have you thought of subscribing to the Rootsweb Hertfordshire List? > Maggie. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > This mailing list works in parallel with the London surname interest > list on the web at http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/london.html . > Check for matching interests and add your own ! > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: LONDON-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LONDON- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message

Paul wrote > Still trying to find the burial or cremation of Nebat Osman Pickles who > died 6th June 1976 at New Barnet. > I have tried New Southgate - no record of him there. New Barnet, Hertfordshire, England, a small north London suburb with a variety of shops, public houses, restaurants, services and people. ... Have you thought of subscribing to the Rootsweb Hertfordshire List? Maggie.

Hi List, Still trying to find the burial or cremation of Nebat Osman Pickles who died 6th June 1976 at New Barnet. I have tried New Southgate - no record of him there. I am sure that he was not Jewish. Any help or advice would greatly be appreciated. Paul. ______________________________________________ This email has been scanned by Netintelligence http://www.netintelligence.com/email

Sometime ago I said I would let a lister know if I got acess to these papers.I have lost her request and think she was Canadian.I have acess through my local library until July 20th.  Please contact me if you read this.  Anne Nicholls,New Zealand

If the record is this old there is a good chance that some letters have been misread. Jeanette ________________________________ From: Leonie Oliver <gloliver@bigpond.net.au> To: JFHH <johnfhhgen@uwclub..net>; LONDON-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, 12 July 2011 9:23 AM Subject: Re: [LON] location of Babsfield Hi Peter and John Thanks for the reply. I only know that Babsfield was the abode when James Oliver, son of Moses Oliver, mariner, and Joan his wife, was baptised at St paul Shadwell on 26 April 1681 and that it was also the place given when Joan Oliver, wife of Mosses Oliver, was buried at the same parish a month later.  But just where Babsfield was, is a mystery. Thanks again for the replies. Leonie   ----- Original Message -----   From: JFHH   To: Leonie Oliver ; LONDON-L@rootsweb.com   Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 9:17 PM   Subject: Re: [LON] location of Babsfield   Hi Leonie,   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leonie Oliver" <gloliver@bigpond..net.au>   > Hi all   > I have been looking at some burials in the London records on Ancestry, and found that some   > people's abodes were given as Babsfield.   > I have googled and also looked on old maps with no success.  These records are in the early 18th   > century.   > Can anyone tell me where Babsfield was please?   > Regards> Leonie> NSW   Could you give the details (names, date, parish), please - it will enable others to look at it and   form an opinion?   Could it be that Babsfield is a mis-reading?   Kind regards,   John Henley   -----   No virus found in this message.   Checked by AVG - www.avg.com   Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3757 - Release Date: 07/10/11 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This mailing list works in parallel with the London surname interest list on the web at http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/london.html .  Check for matching interests and add your own ! Any problems, please contact the List Admin: LONDON-admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LONDON-request@rootsweb..com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello again, ----- Original Message ----- From: Leonie Oliver Hi Peter and John Thanks for the reply. I only know that Babsfield was the abode when James Oliver, son of Moses Oliver, mariner, and Joan his wife, was baptised at St paul Shadwell on 26 April 1681 and that it was also the place given when Joan Oliver, wife of Mosses Oliver, was buried at the same parish a month later. But just where Babsfield was, is a mystery.Thanks again for the replies. Leonie Further to your reply and Ron's. I think that the "fields" suffix was probably a street name. Farthing Firelds, Goodmans Fields, Glasshouse Fields have survived as names in the area. Some useful maps are http://home.clara.net/mawer/wapping.html to give you a sense of the later layout http://www.oldlondonmaps.com/newcourtpages/newcourt23.html This (1658) is the nearest map to your date, and is beautifully drawn. Unfortunately it gives no street names. http://archivemaps.com/london/1700londonb.htm (1700) again gives no street names However, in conjunction with Bowles' map http://archivemaps.com/bowles1775/bowles12_01.htm and Horwood's map, http://www.oldlondonmaps.com/horwoodpages/horwood23102.html you may be able to name many of the streets on the earlier maps (bear in mind names change. At least you will get a good idea from the earlier maps f the area in which your ancestors lived. Your other source will be the Tower Hamlets local studies library - Google will find. the London Bporouh of Toer Hamlets home page and navigate from there. Regards John Henley ----- Original Message ----- Hi Leonie, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leonie Oliver" <gloliver@bigpond.net.au> > Hi all > I have been looking at some burials in the London records on Ancestry, and found that some > people's abodes were given as Babsfield. > I have googled and also looked on old maps with no success. These records are in the early 18th > century. > Can anyone tell me where Babsfield was please? > Regards> Leonie> NSW Could you give the details (names, date, parish), please - it will enable others to look at it and form an opinion? Could it be that Babsfield is a mis-reading? Kind regards, John Henley