Hi Jennifer The simple answer to your questions is yes. In the absence of affordable mechanisms for formal divorce, it was not at all uncommon for working class folk to simply move on from a "broken down" relationship. Reversion to a previous name was somewhat less usual because of the complications it caused for children (just as it does now), but it did happen. A bigamous marriage was a risky business. Where all parties were aware of and comfortable with the situation, the chances of getting caught were relatively slim and punishment may have been fairly lenient, but simply pretending to be man and wife was a great deal easier and safer. Hope this helps Caroline > > I am struggling to sort my RILEY Family > My questions: > 1. Would it have been likely for Ann Sophia RILEY to have left her > husband > James RILEY and reverted to her former name of CURLINE? Did people do > that > kind of thing in the 1860s? > 2. Is there a marriage for James RILEY and Ann TWEED or could they have > just pretended they were married? Again did this happen in the 1860s. >

Just had another look at the website - here's the direct link to the Open House events ... http://www.openhouselondon.org.uk/ On 31/08/2011 15:39, The Quineys wrote: > While Heritage Open Days casts a light on England's regions and their > rich cultural heritage, it does not cover London. > > The open day event in the capital, Open House London, is organised by > Open City. It traditionally takes place on the weekend after Heritage > Open Days (17th and 18th September). > To find out about places opening up in London, please visit > www.open-city.org.uk<http://www.open-city.org.uk> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > This mailing list works in parallel with the London surname interest list on the web at http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/london.html . Check for matching interests and add your own ! > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: LONDON-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LONDON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Bev, ----- Original Message ----- From: "B Robertson" <hensher@aol.com> > Can someone help please? Why would someone resident in Hornsey (William Hensher a > pipemaker) be in the London Hospital in Whitechapel where he dies in 1828? My iniial thought would be: Why not? Rural Hornsey was not known as a centre of medical excellence in 1828 :-) BUT see further below >Would this be anything to do with Settlement? AFAIK the London Hospital, and others of this period, were independent, and thus independent of the parish relief system for the poor in its various manifestations sincethe 16th.cent. Other hospitals in London included Bart's, the Westminster, St.George's, Charlotte's, and St.Thomas's (south of the river). Which is not to say that some "the great & the good" serving as trustees of the hospitals were not also to be found involved in poor law administration. It was the nineteenth century which saw the rise of the great Union workhouses with infirmaries attached, the latter slowly transforming into general hospitals. >Was this one of only a few hospitals and did people have to pay to be admitted? I have discovered >that no records survive for that period so if anyone can offer advice I would be grateful! Where have you looked? A quick Google reveals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_London_Hospital a quick introduction to the London, and http://www.medicalmuseums.org/Royal-London-Hospital-Museum-and-Archives/ and http://www.bartsandthelondon.nhs.uk/about-us/museums-and-archives/the-royal-london-archives/ scrolling down this last gives some idea of the holdings and how to search them. The London has extensive archives. Tho' individual patient records for the dates you need may not have survived, they should certainly be able to help with giving you a picture of admisson policies at the time. (IIRC, one way was on the recommendation of a Trustee or a benefactor of the hospital.) Kind regards, John Henley > Many thanks> Bev >

From: PETER WELLS <pete4jaz@btinternet.com> To: "london@rootsweb.com" <london@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, 9 September 2011, 15:52 Subject: Re: LONDON Digest, Vol 6, Issue 281 From: PETER WELLS <pete4jaz@btinternet.com> To: "london@rootsweb.com" <london@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, 2 August 2011, 23:27 Subject: Re: LONDON Digest, Vol 6, Issue 281 m y FRICKER FAMILY lived in thr old nichol area they were in the main 17c housing b ut the family like many moved over the road into shoreditch From: "london-request@rootsweb.com" <london-request@rootsweb.com> To: london@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, 1 August 2011, 8:00 Subject: LONDON Digest, Vol 6, Issue 281 There is a webpage for the the London List at : www.londonlist.org.uk/  This mailing list works in parallel with the London surname interest list on the web at http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/london.html .  Check for matching interests and add your own ! Today's Topics:   1. Re: Boundary Street ,The Old Nichol & Charles Booth (JFHH) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 14:27:05 +0100 From: "JFHH" <johnfhhgen@uwclub.net> Subject: Re: [LON] Boundary Street ,The Old Nichol & Charles Booth To: "Robert Webb" <robert@robw1.plus.com>,    "London list post"     <LONDON@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <EFCA82C3745A4D139987549EEB37FC81@youra97ec67e86> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";     reply-type=original Hi Robert, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Webb" <robert@robw1.plus.com> > I am trying to find information relating to my grandfather Henry A W WEBB who it is believed was > at one time a London City Missionary who was also employed by the London County Council to assist > in helping the residents of the Old Nichol move out to other accommodation prior to the site > demolition and the building of the new Boundary Street Estate.. It is strongly believed that Henry > was interviewed by Charles Booth  together the Rev Loveridge probably circa 1885 to 1898. > Any information, such as extracts from diaries, newspapers etc, would be very welcome as would any > photographs.  In addition photographs of the Prince of Wales at the official opening of the estate > would be of great interest. >  Henry went on to become the estate superintendent but died, on the estate, in 1925. > > Robert in N Wales Have you Googled for "London City Mission(aries)"? I am fairly certain they are still going and may still have (or deposited) archives. Regards John Henley ------------------------------ To contact the LONDON list administrator, send an email to LONDON-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the LONDON mailing list, send an email to LONDON@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LONDON-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of LONDON Digest, Vol 6, Issue 281 **************************************

I have a death certificate and undertaker's invoice for death and burial of my mother's infant brother. He was treated / died at Willisden Infirmary. Is it possible the patient record still exists? If so I'd appreciate any suggestions as to where to start looking. Thanks, Mary Baker British Columbia Canada

Dear List, Can someone help please? Why would someone resident in Hornsey (William Hensher a pipemaker) be in the London Hospital in Whitechapel where he dies in 1828? Would this be anything to do with Settlement? Was this one of only a few hospitals and did people have to pay to be admitted? I have discovered that no records survive for that period so if anyone can offer advice I would be grateful! Many thanks Bev

You are welcome, Eileen (and Pat). I think you do need a little bit more documentary corroboration of the link between George and Joshua and Martha before "inking it in". Although the Romsey connection is appealing and the dates fit, the fact that there were a number of (probably related) NEWMAN families in the area, means you should tread carefully His baptism record is unlikely to be of much help (though you should, of course, try and get a look at it via the LDS film), as at that date that church was not in the habit of noting fathers' occupations or addresses. Death certificates for Joshua and/or Martha might do the trick if George was the informant and gave an address which ties in with your guy. Otherwise, working up all the probable siblings would be a good idea, in case there was any mutual witnessing of weddings or sleep-overs of nieces and nephews. For what it's worth, I also think you might have to be prepared not to find the JAQUES connection. Family stories normally have some grain of truth somewhere, but not always where, or when, we are led to expect. But, having read earlier posts where you mention a possible Huguenot connection, it might be worth mentioning that Southampton (closish to Romsey) had a significant Huguenot community. Best wishes Caroline Sent from my iPad On 6 Sep 2011, at 18:30, "eileen/pat" <epfranchi@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > Very many thanks Caroline. Brilliant. This ties in with the findings of my distant cousin. I had somehow found different parents, but hers were more logical and now you have confirmed it. I too cant find George and Harriett on the 1841 and had also found the birthplace in 1861 given as Romsey which confused me and led me down the wrong branch. Unfortunately my Newmans were originallly Jacques I have been led to believe from now deceased family, who changed their name but date unknown. So I guess not part of the considerable clan in Romsey!. Interesting though so very many thanks again. Eileen. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Caroline Bradford" <caroline.bradford@btinternet.com> > To: "'eileen/pat'" <epfranchi@blueyonder.co.uk>; <LONDON@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 5:25 PM > Subject: RE: [LON] NEWMAN 1841 > > >> Hi Eileen >> >> I cannot, for the life of me, find George and family in 1841! But Joshua >> and Martha are, I think, in St Bartholomew the Great in 1841 (HO10/724 Book >> 6, Folio 25). Having had a bit of a look at the family, I would think that >> Joshua and Martha are good candidates for George's parents. >> >> Unusually, this appears to be a case when a mistake over a place of birth is >> a godsend to the researcher. In 1861, George gives his place of birth as >> "Hants, Romsey". This is also the birthplace of Martha Snr (as per 1851 >> census, when she is a widow in Whitecross Street, which is in the parish of >> St Luke (Romsey mistranscribed by Ancestry as "Runcey"). >> >> Annoyingly, the page of the parish register of St Leonard's Shoreditch on >> which George's 1811 baptism probably lies is missing from the images on >> Ancestry. But there are baptisms there of a Martha (1823) and William Henry >> (1825). FamilySearch also offers the baptism of a Jemima NEWMAN to a Joshua >> and Martha in Romsey in 1808. I think she is probably the Jemima who >> married William WELLER in 1840 in Lambeth (father on marriage registration >> is Joshua, a carpenter - same trade as on the St Leonard's baptisms above). >> >> So we seem to have a Joshua and Martha NEWMAN arriving in London from Romsey >> (where there is a considerable NEWMAN clan) sometime between 1808 and 1811. >> >> >> Does this help? >> >> Caroline >> >> >> >> >>> Can anyone find George Newman, B 1811 St Lukes and Harriot/Harriet >>> Newman 1812 Woolwich, and family on the 1841. I should be delighted. >>> They have George 1836, Mary Ann 1839, Henrietta 1839 and possibly John >>> 1840. In (1851 they are in Finsbury with more family, Amelia >>> 1844,Thomas 1848,Rebecca 1848 amd possibly Martha 1851. In 1861 they >>> are still in Finsbury but have moved, George is an Artesian Well >>> Borer.) However its the 1841 I am most interested in because another >>> searcher has found George's parents on the IGI- Joshua and Martha who I >>> should also like to find on the 1841. Very Many thanks. Eileen. >

Very many thanks Caroline. Brilliant. This ties in with the findings of my distant cousin. I had somehow found different parents, but hers were more logical and now you have confirmed it. I too cant find George and Harriett on the 1841 and had also found the birthplace in 1861 given as Romsey which confused me and led me down the wrong branch. Unfortunately my Newmans were originallly Jacques I have been led to believe from now deceased family, who changed their name but date unknown. So I guess not part of the considerable clan in Romsey!. Interesting though so very many thanks again. Eileen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Caroline Bradford" <caroline.bradford@btinternet.com> To: "'eileen/pat'" <epfranchi@blueyonder.co.uk>; <LONDON@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 5:25 PM Subject: RE: [LON] NEWMAN 1841 > Hi Eileen > > I cannot, for the life of me, find George and family in 1841! But Joshua > and Martha are, I think, in St Bartholomew the Great in 1841 (HO10/724 > Book > 6, Folio 25). Having had a bit of a look at the family, I would think > that > Joshua and Martha are good candidates for George's parents. > > Unusually, this appears to be a case when a mistake over a place of birth > is > a godsend to the researcher. In 1861, George gives his place of birth as > "Hants, Romsey". This is also the birthplace of Martha Snr (as per 1851 > census, when she is a widow in Whitecross Street, which is in the parish > of > St Luke (Romsey mistranscribed by Ancestry as "Runcey"). > > Annoyingly, the page of the parish register of St Leonard's Shoreditch on > which George's 1811 baptism probably lies is missing from the images on > Ancestry. But there are baptisms there of a Martha (1823) and William > Henry > (1825). FamilySearch also offers the baptism of a Jemima NEWMAN to a > Joshua > and Martha in Romsey in 1808. I think she is probably the Jemima who > married William WELLER in 1840 in Lambeth (father on marriage registration > is Joshua, a carpenter - same trade as on the St Leonard's baptisms > above). > > So we seem to have a Joshua and Martha NEWMAN arriving in London from > Romsey > (where there is a considerable NEWMAN clan) sometime between 1808 and > 1811. > > > Does this help? > > Caroline > > > > >> Can anyone find George Newman, B 1811 St Lukes and Harriot/Harriet >> Newman 1812 Woolwich, and family on the 1841. I should be delighted. >> They have George 1836, Mary Ann 1839, Henrietta 1839 and possibly John >> 1840. In (1851 they are in Finsbury with more family, Amelia >> 1844,Thomas 1848,Rebecca 1848 amd possibly Martha 1851. In 1861 they >> are still in Finsbury but have moved, George is an Artesian Well >> Borer.) However its the 1841 I am most interested in because another >> searcher has found George's parents on the IGI- Joshua and Martha who I >> should also like to find on the 1841. Very Many thanks. Eileen. >

Hi Eileen I cannot, for the life of me, find George and family in 1841! But Joshua and Martha are, I think, in St Bartholomew the Great in 1841 (HO10/724 Book 6, Folio 25). Having had a bit of a look at the family, I would think that Joshua and Martha are good candidates for George's parents. Unusually, this appears to be a case when a mistake over a place of birth is a godsend to the researcher. In 1861, George gives his place of birth as "Hants, Romsey". This is also the birthplace of Martha Snr (as per 1851 census, when she is a widow in Whitecross Street, which is in the parish of St Luke (Romsey mistranscribed by Ancestry as "Runcey"). Annoyingly, the page of the parish register of St Leonard's Shoreditch on which George's 1811 baptism probably lies is missing from the images on Ancestry. But there are baptisms there of a Martha (1823) and William Henry (1825). FamilySearch also offers the baptism of a Jemima NEWMAN to a Joshua and Martha in Romsey in 1808. I think she is probably the Jemima who married William WELLER in 1840 in Lambeth (father on marriage registration is Joshua, a carpenter - same trade as on the St Leonard's baptisms above). So we seem to have a Joshua and Martha NEWMAN arriving in London from Romsey (where there is a considerable NEWMAN clan) sometime between 1808 and 1811. Does this help? Caroline > Can anyone find George Newman, B 1811 St Lukes and Harriot/Harriet > Newman 1812 Woolwich, and family on the 1841. I should be delighted. > They have George 1836, Mary Ann 1839, Henrietta 1839 and possibly John > 1840. In (1851 they are in Finsbury with more family, Amelia > 1844,Thomas 1848,Rebecca 1848 amd possibly Martha 1851. In 1861 they > are still in Finsbury but have moved, George is an Artesian Well > Borer.) However its the 1841 I am most interested in because another > searcher has found George's parents on the IGI- Joshua and Martha who I > should also like to find on the 1841. Very Many thanks. Eileen.

Can anyone find George Newman, B 1811 St Lukes and Harriot/Harriet Newman 1812 Woolwich, and family on the 1841. I should be delighted. They have George 1836, Mary Ann 1839, Henrietta 1839 and possibly John 1840. In (1851 they are in Finsbury with more family, Amelia 1844,Thomas 1848,Rebecca 1848 amd possibly Martha 1851. In 1861 they are still in Finsbury but have moved, George is an Artesian Well Borer.) However its the 1841 I am most interested in because another searcher has found George's parents on the IGI- Joshua and Martha who I should also like to find on the 1841. Very Many thanks. Eileen.

Hi Eileen Not sure what site you may be thinking of, I have not come across one covering the subject of name change or Naturalisation for England There are some reported in the Gazettes and a few in the newspapers This may help (or not :-) regarding Naturalisation http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/naturalisation.htm Good luck, I think you are going to need it Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Can anyone tell me of a website which lists naturalisation/name changes > please. I remember finding one years ago and cant remember what it was. > My NEWMAN family were apparently Hugenots who changed from Jacques to Newman > at some point but not as early as the mass imigration. A now deceased > relative says it wasnt too long ago but I have researched the family back to > George Newman born 1811 St.Lukes and I have had info from a fellow > researcher that he was the son of Josua Newman and Martha from the IGI so > the change must have come before that. Many thanks for any help and > suggestions. Eileen

Dear All, I am trying to trace the whereabouts of one Mary Elizabeth LEONARD born 4th October 1904 in Fulham. In the 1911 census I have found her siblings at Bristol but not able to trace Mary at all. I am told that she was placed into a Catholic run place in London and wondered if anyone is able to help me on this matter please? Regards, Steve

Can anyone tell me of a website which lists naturalisation/name changes please. I remember finding one years ago and cant remember what it was. My NEWMAN family were apparently Hugenots who changed from Jacques to Newman at some point but not as early as the mass imigration. A now deceased relative says it wasnt too long ago but I have researched the family back to George Newman born 1811 St.Lukes and I have had info from a fellow researcher that he was the son of Josua Newman and Martha from the IGI so the change must have come before that. Many thanks for any help and suggestions. Eileen

I have an ancestor Mary Beavitt who was convict of a crime in April 1814 [crime was Feb] and appears on the London Lives website. The reference says Letter and the date is 18160701. Does this mean a letter dated from 1816? Do the numbers indicate date and month? Mary was transported in 1816 sometime around July/August to NSW arriving in Feb 1817. Would this letter be written by Mary? Her children went with her on the boat to Australia so a letter may have been a plea to bring her family with her. I have not found her Husband's burial record yet. Where would this letter be held please? Karen Australia

Karen, The letter is dated 1 July 1816 (18160701) and apparently relates to a Mary BEVERTON, tried at the Old Bailey on 20 April 1814 for coining offences committed on 10 February 1814. Is this your ancestor? The letter is recorded in the Associated Documents section of the Old Bailey website. It is held at the Bank of England Archives, ref. F 25/3, which relates to Prison Correspondence. The archives guide says: http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/about/history/archive/archguide.pdf (page 45) "Prison Correspondence etc. (F 25) 1781 to 1844 14 pieces This class comprises letters mainly written by persons accused or convicted of forgery offences, who were seeking clemency or financial help from the Bank. Some debtors' letters and other relevant documents are also included. A list of the places from which the letters came is given in the class introductory note." Contact address is on the Bank of England Archives' website. http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/about/history/archive/using.htm HTH Judy London, UK -----Original Message----- From: london-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:london-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Karen Hodges I have an ancestor Mary Beavitt who was convict of a crime in April 1814 [crime was Feb] and appears on the London Lives website. The reference says Letter and the date is 18160701. Does this mean a letter dated from 1816? Do the numbers indicate date and month? Mary was transported in 1816 sometime around July/August to NSW arriving in Feb 1817. Would this letter be written by Mary? Her children went with her on the boat to Australia so a letter may have been a plea to bring her family with her. I have not found her Husband's burial record yet. Where would this letter be held please? Karen Australia

Hi Brian I have had another look for your APPS and find its hard work with no obvious start points As I posted last time, there are no Charles APPS registered, at least not under Walworth The nearest I found was Name: William Charles Apps Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1889 Registration district: Kingston Inferred County: Middlesex, Surrey Volume: 2a Page: 857 Which is in the right quarter if his age is correct on his Navy record If his parents moved to Walworth whilst he was very small he may have thought thats where he was born On the 1915 marriage, which is his? who did he marry and where ? Was there an address on the certificate? Was he conscripted into the Navy or did he join up ? What period did he serve Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Hello All > This maybe a long shot for yourselves, but looking for the above. > On my gfathers marriage cert. 1915 it states that his father was William > Edward Apps, and his occupation was a Hopswarehouseman, deceased. > My gfather Charles and William Edward are a mystery before 1915. > So if SKS can come to my assistance with any help, I thank you in advance. > On my gfathers navy record he was born Walworth 1889, London, his name was > Charles Apps. > Regards Brian

Hi everyone, I was interested in this email from you. I have a wonderful 83 pg book (A5) on " Dating Old Photographs " by Robert Pols. it was Published by The Federation of Family History Societies. Dated March 1992. The address on the back of the book is "The Benson Room, Birmingham and Midland Institute, Margaret Street, Birmingham B3 3BS ISBM 1-872094-37-6 Hope its still available. Muriel ----- Original Message ----- From: "nicholas wilson" <wilsonnicholas90@gmail.com> To: <LONDON@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 9:51 PM Subject: [LON] MEN'S DRESS IN VICTORIAN TIMES > Hello, > > Hello, > > I am hoping someone familiar with men's style of dressing in the 19th > century can help me. Our family has a portrait in which the subject is > wearing a white shirt with a frilly front and a soft winged type collar , > a > wide black cravat tied in a loose bow, a pale mustard waistcoat and a > black > cut away jacket. His hair is cut quite short with a 'kiss curl'. My own > guess is c.1830 > > If I knew the approximate date when men were dressed in this manner in it > she mentions variously portraits ( paintings) by the subject's name. > > I can send a likeness off list if required. > > Thanks, > > Nick > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > This mailing list works in parallel with the London surname interest list > on the web at http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/london.html . Check for > matching interests and add your own ! > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: LONDON-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LONDON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Hello All This maybe a long shot for yourselves, but looking for the above. On my gfathers marriage cert. 1915 it states that his father was William Edward Apps, and his occupation was a Hopswarehouseman, deceased. My gfather Charles and William Edward are a mystery before 1915. So if SKS can come to my assistance with any help, I thank you in advance. On my gfathers navy record he was born Walworth 1889, London, his name was Charles Apps. Regards Brian

On 09/04/2011 09:01 AM, JUNE apps wrote: > Hello All > This maybe a long shot for yourselves, but looking for the above. > On my gfathers marriage cert. 1915 it states that his father was William > Edward Apps, and his occupation was a Hopswarehouseman, deceased. > My gfather Charles and William Edward are a mystery before 1915. > So if SKS can come to my assistance with any help, I thank you in advance. > On my gfathers navy record he was born Walworth 1889, London, his name was > Charles Apps. > Regards Brian > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > This mailing list works in parallel with the London surname interest list on the web at http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/london.html . Check for matching interests and add your own ! > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: LONDON-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LONDON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > AND he was before the iPhone!!!

Thank you Jan, Christine and Ron for your suggestions re J J Waite. I delayed replying to you until I'd followed up all your ideas. Sadly, none has led me to the elusive John, but I still hope to find him and have since been in touch with another of his distant relatives who is waiting for some information, so fingers crossed this mystery will be solved in time. The Iles family is equally hard to find, but perhaps some scrap of information re the Waites could lead to the brick wall that hides them too! Again, many thanks and best wishes Marjorie