What a bunch of hooey! Can we get on with life and quit bellyaching? I mean there are many of us who believe the sharing of genealogical information is the purpose of these mailing lists. Those that subscribe to this "listowner" mailing list only represent a small faction of the internet genealogical community. In order to claim copywrite on surnames is tantamount to claiming exclusive rights one does not own. Where is the injury in this case? How could John be made "whole" in this case. Are we now claiming ownership of html code? P.S. Cliff Shaw or whoever, you have my permission (not that you need it) to use my surnames. Dwayne Crandall dcrandal@mail.coin.missouri.edu http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1949 ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Genforum: A response from Cliff Author: listowners@rootsweb.com at internet-ext Date: 7/18/97 3:26 PM <snip> >Now, it appears to me that he is more than willing to post links >(just as John does) to our list without our having to try and sneak >them in. Also, if we have one more place to attract sources, I say >all the better. If indeed Cliff did plagerize John's work, again I >apologize, but I don't think it is our place (as listowners) to take >on that battle. I will be alerting my lists today as to the >situation as well as telling Cliff to go ahead and put the links up. > >Thanks, >Christi Calvert Brogan > >Listowner: Brogan-L, Calvert-L, Voss-L and Whitmer-L >Please visit my family tree at our homepage: <http://www.txdirect.net/users/brogan> > Christi and all, 1. He did indeed plagerize John's work. He DID violate John's copyright. 2. This IS the place to take on that battle, however we have been discussing this in the wrong manner. I have watched over the last few days as everyone has become upset regarding the use of what they consider their OWN surnames. I'm sorry, but that isn't the issue at hand. Yes, it is upsetting to see duplication of effort. However, the REAL issue is that John Fuller's copyright was violated. This is illegal and Cliff Shaw has no right to copy from John's site. I'm bothered to see that so many people took this as a personal issue, rather than as an issue in which we can all stand up for John and his rights. I feel that if we are serious about our projects online to further genealogical research, we should be willing to help one another deal with the problems that come up. Siding with Mr. Shaw or encouraging him to set up links doesn't seem to me to show any solidarity for John Fuller and the THOUSANDS of hours of his free time that he has spent accumulating and posting the information on his web site. I know personally, that John has worked tirelessly on his web site and he has done so using his own personal resources and his personal time. He doesn't make money from his web site. He wants to help online genealogical resources become easier to find and to use. I also know personally, that Cliff Shaw intends to make money on his web site. He has plans for ads and he has numbers for the prospective revenues he hopes to attain. He set up his site by using John's list of surnames & their variants. I DID see this myself when the site was first put online, BEFORE he made changes to it as the list owners started writing to him a few days ago. There is no doubt that he copied John Fuller's work. It is a fact. Again, the issue here isn't that he is duplicating effort. The Internet is a large place and there is plenty of room for one and all. Don't get me wrong, I am unhappy about duplicating online resources, but this is a free country, a democracy and a capitalistic society - competition is something we have in all areas of our society. In the long run those who are serious about genealogy and those who are dedicated to their web site resources (like John), will prevail. However, one thing we cannot stand by and let happen is THEFT or violation of any law that is there to protect the rights of one and all. THAT is what Mr. Shaw is guilty of doing. He cannot be blamed for trying put up a new web site that seems to duplicate an idea. He CAN be blamed for putting up a new web site that DUPLICATES John's work. I would suggest that we discontinue correspondence with Mr. Shaw. Show your support to John and do NOT ask for links from the GenForum site. I would also suggest that we discontinue sending hits to his web site. He will use these statistics to gather sponsors for ads on his site. I would suggest that instead of thinking of ourselves and showing a selfish line of motivation regarding the use or what we consider OUR surnames and OUR ideas, we all show our continued support for John and his truly wonderful efforts. John makes it easy for your cousins to find your mailing lists. He makes it easy for them to join your mailing lists. He makes it easy for you to make the connections you need. And he does so because he is a decent and hard-working man who did a Herculean effort during the move from Maiser. Last, please quit with the personal comments, name-calling, etc. on this list. Again, let's turn this from a "me and mine" issue to a show of solidarity for serious, dedicated, online genealogical resources such as John's list. People like Mr. Shaw come and go. People like John deserve our friendship, support and encouragement. Cyndi Cyndi Howells Puyallup, Washington cyndihow@oz.net PSRoots-L List Pooh-Bah and Evan's Mommy! http://www.oz.net/~cyndihow/baby.gif PSRoots-L Mailing List http://www.rootsweb.com/~watpcgs/psroots.htm Cyndi's List http://www.oz.net/~cyndihow/sites.htm