Hi, I am working on my CLARY, COWAN, CRAIN, & CRANDALL page continuously. Just need to clear up some space and I'll have more pedigree info. IT is at http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1949 Dwayne Crandall listmogul CLARY, CRAIN, & CRANDALL lists dcrandal@mail.coin.missouri.edu ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: List research page Author: listowners@rootsweb.com at internet-ext Date: 12/24/97 6:26 PM Hi all, Is there anyone who has a separate surname page to go along with their Surname List? A couple of people on my Cate List would like to establish a Cate Research Library page that would have documentation & pedigrees, etc. We would like to take a look at any other established page to see how yours works. Thanks & Merry Christmas, Roberta Distribution: To: <Name Not Given> listowners@rootsweb.com

Good for you Lisa, Way to spell it out clearly. Let's start sharing information again. If someone has some genuine original materials fine, then copyright and protect it. The "phone listing" court decision of recent should have put people on notice that mere regurgitation of public domain information was not such material. Dwayne ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: WEB Discussion Author: listowners@rootsweb.com at internet-ext Date: 7/21/97 4:04 AM ITS MINE! ITS MINE! ITS MINE! I retired from teaching about 8 years ago, with these words ringing in my ears. I swore I would be dealing mostly with adults...HA! HA! I sent out one of the messages regarding this "COPYRIGHT MESS" to my lists to let them know what was going on, IT WAS NOT MY OPINION! The purpose of GENEALOGY is to share, NOT SELL! Yet, sadly we are coming, more and more to that point, by claiming possession, of lists, data, and PUBLIC DOMAIN. The copyright laws...since everyone is pressing this matter, are for the purpose of preventing material from being published or SOLD, by anyone else, other than the author or musican. Are you sharing or selling?? Now, I am being to see some really odd phrases; I indexed the *** Cemetery List, and *** copied it to ***'s page. So WHAT???? They wasn't Selling the information? When I log-on, I am pull the curtain of my "picture widow" open to the world. Anything I share in my window, belongs to the computer-world! Or does the little box on most archives "this information is freely shared and may be copied, but not sold" a LIE????? Who cares who gets the credit? Unless someone is on an ego-trip? Everytime I browse the web, I search Web sites and Surname data bases for information, should I go back to ALL these people an "Give them back, the names, dates, and spelling" that I stole??? Sorry folks but I feel the Internet is not for hire, and if we continue on this path, we'll end up Paying BIG Business for the information, that should be freely shared. If I index a Cemetery, Census, or Wills, and SCREAM copywrite violation, everytime someone uses my list (without permission), I haven't done the work for helping other, I've done it so eveyone can see my name copywrited at the bottom! This is My Opinion. Maybe I'm wrong, but with this attitude, we'll all end up paying big bucks, to WTM, FO, and Borderbond, don't get me wrong, they serve a purpose, but don't complete the entire picture. I don't want the net to be regulated!! Its coming...and we just entered the fast-lane. Caution; the mailing lists that I maintain are public domain and belong to each and every subscriber. The information is freely shared. If you don't wish your information to go to others, your in the wrong place. Lisa Henderson-Listowner of Bass, Cauble, Dutch-Colonies, Emerson, Griggs, Henderson, Kelsey, and Powell-Mailing Lists Web Page-Copy Freely-I give permission!-(sorry, don't have much up, yet.) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/8287/index.html

Great, Guess I'd better check my names too! Dwayne Crandall ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: GENFORUM Author: listowners@rootsweb.com at internet-ext Date: 7/18/97 6:46 PM At 06:47 AM 7/18/97 -0400, SJStraight@aol.com wrote: >Looks like we are all having a time with this situation. I went to GenForum >site. Looked at STRAIGHT, ALLEN, DRUMM, BIRD and BUCKLEY. Saw some that had >messages. I clicked on the names and got their e-mail address. I sent a >message to each of them, now I have 3 more new members. > Great! That's what it's all about -- sharing. Keep up the good work! David --- Listowner, Dyer, Foster, Friend, Gamage, Glidden, Gordon, Merry, Shippee, Sylvester, Washburn ... Shake your family tree and watch the nuts fall! davids@agate.net - http://www.agate.net/~davids/geneal.html _______ .------|_______ David Sylvester ------+ _______ PO Box 135 `------|_______ Searsport, Maine 04974 Member: New England Historic Genealogical Society Member: The International Internet Genealogy Society

Excuse me John, I see nothing offensive about the site, you seem to condemn or that it appears to have been officially LDS sanctioned. I can't see any charges being asked either. BTW wasn't Rigdon a common name in the establishment of The Church of Jesus Christ LDS? To say the .edu domain puts in a public forum of a college someone ought to contact is LUDICROUS! I use COIN (Columbia On-line Information Network) which uses the University of Missouri as its provider, but has NO OTHER AFFILIATION with it. JMHO Dwayne Crandall dcrandal@mail.coin.missouri.edu ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Matt Roller's World Genealogy Archive Author: listowners@rootsweb.com at internet-ext Date: 7/18/97 12:30 PM I have contacted both Matt Roller and the administrators at the school in the past. The administrator of the site (Marvin Hawkin) responded about a month ago that he was on vacation and would take a look at the site when he returned in August. Matt's response was that he was just trying to help - not selling anything and such - and that most of what he had posted on "his archive" was in the public domain anyway. In view of the fact that this information is on an EDU server (Salt Lake City Community College) and Matt is advertising his site as having the LDS blessing, I think there are two organizations we need to contact. John Rigdon National Coordinator The USGenWeb Project administrative contact: Marvin Hawkin, u_hawkins@VAXA.SLCC.EDU phone: 801-967-4128 technical contact: Bill Zoumadakis, zoom@cc.utah.edu phone: 801-967-4128 The offensive site: http://oasis.slcc.edu/search/

Why not just stop the free distribution of valuable genealogical information on this media? Isn't that really what you seem to be advocating. Seems, this controversy would have never reached this level on MAISER. Larry Stephens would have stopped the nonsense long ago. Also, Karen would have said, please post your opinions privately not to the entire ROOTS-L group. Not all responses have been in agreement with you Dr. Leverich. Dwayne Crandall dcrandal@mail.coin.missouri.edu Listmanager CLARY-L, CRAIN-L, and CRANDALL-L ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Let's End the Lawlessness Author: listowners@rootsweb.com at internet-ext Date: 7/19/97 9:10 AM I've found it instructive watching the responses to Cliff Shaw and Matt Roller's theft of other folks' property. I think we need to stop talking and start doing. Here are examples of things we can do: (1) We can start letter-writing campaigns to "upstreams" of offending sites. For example, I have the e-mail addresses for the President, Vice-President, and such of SLCC. Let's write them and make sure they understand their site is harboring a thief. (2) We can "shrinkwrap license" our Internet sites, and obtain much stronger legal protection for our work than copyright alone will provide. (3) We can start moving our data behind search engines. This will improve life for our users, and confound the thieves. (4) We can collectively bring legal action against the more egregious violators. I suspect that if we brought just one Matt Roller or Cliff Shaw to heel with the full force of the law, then an awful lot of bad behavior would suddenly disappear from the Net. And there's bound to be more we can do. Later today RootsWeb will set up COPYRIGHT-L and -D lists. The purpose of COPYRIGHT-L is to allow folks who want to stop the theft of intellectual property to coordinate their actions and start doing something about this mess. I'll see you there. -B -- Dr. Brian Leverich Co-moderator, soc.genealogy.methods/GENMTD-L RootsWeb Genealogical Data Cooperative http://www.rootsweb.com/ P.O. Box 6798, Frazier Park, CA 93222-6798 leverich@rootsweb.com

Patti, Bless you! You hit it right on the nose! Dwayne Crandall dcrandal@mail.coin.missouri.edu ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: The InterNet Author: listowners@rootsweb.com at internet-ext Date: 7/18/97 8:22 PM You should thank your lucky stars that you've received no mail.... All you've missed is a bunch of paranoid people with nothing better to do than use this "supposedly informational mailing list" as a personal sounding board. At least you don't have a sore finger from hitting the delete button. Patti At 05:27 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Anne Pyle wrote: >Geoff Wright wrote: >> >> Hi All >> >> Have I missed something ? >> Is the Internet broken again or do I have a problem with my list ? >> I've never seen so many bounced messages... >> >> Regards >> >> Geoff >--------------------- > >I'd like to add my own question to this. I've received no mail from my >list for over 24 hours. I haven't said anything or written to anyone >because I know servers go down from time to time, but has anyone else >been experiencing this problem? I just want to be sure my list didn't >get lost in the move!!! >------------ >Anne Pyle >mailto:ceannmor@erols.com >http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/1060/index.html > > <color><param>ffff,0000,ffff</param>Patti CALDWELL Fasy email: glitters@naples.infi.net <bold> </bold><italic>"If there is anything better than to be loved, it is loving..........."</italic></color>

Sorry WR - if that's really your name, I made a mistake. My attorney tells me it's libel not slander. BTW, care to share your name and address? He'd like to send you some free materials. Dwayne Crandall dcrandal@mail.coin.missouri.edu ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Matt Roller's World Genealogy Archive Author: listowners@rootsweb.com at internet-ext Date: 7/21/97 12:16 PM >From: crandald@ext.missouri.edu >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 97 07:44:17 cdt >To: listowners@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re[3]: Matt Roller's World Genealogy Archive > >Kathie, > >Sounds to me like you are slandering me! To relate such nonsense as >what you worte below about someone you do not even know shows your >character. > >Dwayne > Seems to me you were the first slanderer here with your cheesy little comment in your original message about Rigdon and the LDS Church. Are you implying that John Rigdon is connected with the LDS Church?? And, if so, that it in some way it impunes his character?? Why in the hay did you make this statement?? Do you know John Rigdon?? "To relate such nonsense as what you worte [sic] below about someone you do not even know shows your character." >>BTW wasn't Rigdon a common name in the establishment of The Church >>of Jesus Christ LDS? Thanks for playing Dwayne. We have a nice departing gift for you. WR ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

What a bunch of hooey! Can we get on with life and quit bellyaching? I mean there are many of us who believe the sharing of genealogical information is the purpose of these mailing lists. Those that subscribe to this "listowner" mailing list only represent a small faction of the internet genealogical community. In order to claim copywrite on surnames is tantamount to claiming exclusive rights one does not own. Where is the injury in this case? How could John be made "whole" in this case. Are we now claiming ownership of html code? P.S. Cliff Shaw or whoever, you have my permission (not that you need it) to use my surnames. Dwayne Crandall dcrandal@mail.coin.missouri.edu http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1949 ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Genforum: A response from Cliff Author: listowners@rootsweb.com at internet-ext Date: 7/18/97 3:26 PM <snip> >Now, it appears to me that he is more than willing to post links >(just as John does) to our list without our having to try and sneak >them in. Also, if we have one more place to attract sources, I say >all the better. If indeed Cliff did plagerize John's work, again I >apologize, but I don't think it is our place (as listowners) to take >on that battle. I will be alerting my lists today as to the >situation as well as telling Cliff to go ahead and put the links up. > >Thanks, >Christi Calvert Brogan > >Listowner: Brogan-L, Calvert-L, Voss-L and Whitmer-L >Please visit my family tree at our homepage: <http://www.txdirect.net/users/brogan> > Christi and all, 1. He did indeed plagerize John's work. He DID violate John's copyright. 2. This IS the place to take on that battle, however we have been discussing this in the wrong manner. I have watched over the last few days as everyone has become upset regarding the use of what they consider their OWN surnames. I'm sorry, but that isn't the issue at hand. Yes, it is upsetting to see duplication of effort. However, the REAL issue is that John Fuller's copyright was violated. This is illegal and Cliff Shaw has no right to copy from John's site. I'm bothered to see that so many people took this as a personal issue, rather than as an issue in which we can all stand up for John and his rights. I feel that if we are serious about our projects online to further genealogical research, we should be willing to help one another deal with the problems that come up. Siding with Mr. Shaw or encouraging him to set up links doesn't seem to me to show any solidarity for John Fuller and the THOUSANDS of hours of his free time that he has spent accumulating and posting the information on his web site. I know personally, that John has worked tirelessly on his web site and he has done so using his own personal resources and his personal time. He doesn't make money from his web site. He wants to help online genealogical resources become easier to find and to use. I also know personally, that Cliff Shaw intends to make money on his web site. He has plans for ads and he has numbers for the prospective revenues he hopes to attain. He set up his site by using John's list of surnames & their variants. I DID see this myself when the site was first put online, BEFORE he made changes to it as the list owners started writing to him a few days ago. There is no doubt that he copied John Fuller's work. It is a fact. Again, the issue here isn't that he is duplicating effort. The Internet is a large place and there is plenty of room for one and all. Don't get me wrong, I am unhappy about duplicating online resources, but this is a free country, a democracy and a capitalistic society - competition is something we have in all areas of our society. In the long run those who are serious about genealogy and those who are dedicated to their web site resources (like John), will prevail. However, one thing we cannot stand by and let happen is THEFT or violation of any law that is there to protect the rights of one and all. THAT is what Mr. Shaw is guilty of doing. He cannot be blamed for trying put up a new web site that seems to duplicate an idea. He CAN be blamed for putting up a new web site that DUPLICATES John's work. I would suggest that we discontinue correspondence with Mr. Shaw. Show your support to John and do NOT ask for links from the GenForum site. I would also suggest that we discontinue sending hits to his web site. He will use these statistics to gather sponsors for ads on his site. I would suggest that instead of thinking of ourselves and showing a selfish line of motivation regarding the use or what we consider OUR surnames and OUR ideas, we all show our continued support for John and his truly wonderful efforts. John makes it easy for your cousins to find your mailing lists. He makes it easy for them to join your mailing lists. He makes it easy for you to make the connections you need. And he does so because he is a decent and hard-working man who did a Herculean effort during the move from Maiser. Last, please quit with the personal comments, name-calling, etc. on this list. Again, let's turn this from a "me and mine" issue to a show of solidarity for serious, dedicated, online genealogical resources such as John's list. People like Mr. Shaw come and go. People like John deserve our friendship, support and encouragement. Cyndi Cyndi Howells Puyallup, Washington cyndihow@oz.net PSRoots-L List Pooh-Bah and Evan's Mommy! http://www.oz.net/~cyndihow/baby.gif PSRoots-L Mailing List http://www.rootsweb.com/~watpcgs/psroots.htm Cyndi's List http://www.oz.net/~cyndihow/sites.htm

Derick, Easy way is to access it by web site- Surnames: http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/listowners/util-sur.htm Others: http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/listowners/listutil.htm I also have a search site at my web page shown below. Dwayne Crandall dcrandal@mail.coin.missouri.edu http//www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1949 ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: surname/regional lists Author: listowners@rootsweb.com at internet-ext Date: 7/1/97 9:41 AM Several folks who aren't on any of the RootsWeb lists have asked how they can get a list of available lists. What's the method for getting a list of them since we have revamped the server? --Derick

Terri, I agree with you and I didn't hear a "call for votes" on the issue to Dr. Leverich to decide if there was a majority or not. Obviously my vote would be contrary to his. Dwayne Crandall ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Dr. B. -- it doesn't work Author: listowners@rootsweb.com at internet-ext Date: 7/20/97 8:17 AM >Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 20:55:39 -0700 >From: Jim <sundowner@sprintmail.com> >Reply-To: sundowner@sprintmail.com >To: Eldon Jensen <jensenet@vii.com>, Brian Leverich <leverich@rootsweb.com> >Subject: Re: Dr. B. -- it doesn't work >Content-Length: 1325 > >Terri > > While you are of course entitled to your own option, I think there are >more of us who are in Brian's court. Rootsweb gave us a home after >Maiser crashed, they have spent considerable amounts of their money >expanding the system we use. A system I might add that responds >considerably faster than Maiser did. This gives them a say in what >happens to the flow of data through rootsweb. They are not claiming >ownership of the files but claim the content and format of rootsweb were >duplicated without permission. This is, in all courts I know of, >illegal. > So while you might disagree on the right of one to own a surname I fail >to see how you can disagree on the obvious theft of content and look of >a product created by someone else. > Hopefully the discussion of this subject will move to the group created >to discuss it. There are far to many e-mails to delete on this subject. > > Jim >-- > Jim: I NEVER stated I wasn't in Dr. B's court! I fully understand the 'theft of services'. My statement was this.....if I rent a spot at my local storage shed and store my 'stuff' there, they don't own or have a right to my 'stuff' just because it goes through and is stored on their premises! I don't want anybody else to claim 'my stuff' as their own. From what I read, to stop this problem of 'theft of services' Rootsweb wants to claim my 'stuff' as their own. I know that legally that can't be done anymore than the first option could be done. IT JUST DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY! Get a way that makes sense! This one doesn't make any sense. I don't want to be in the minority here (even though it was so politely pointed out that I am, and why I don't know)! I don't like the theft of services and haven't even bothered to visit 'the' site, so don't imply that I am a traitor to the cause! I will support any 'LEGAL AND ETHICAL' means to prevent theft of services but not when it violates my own rights to my own material. Terri Jensen her Terri X Jensen mark Terri Jensen jensenet@vii.com ***************************************** * * * BAD SPELLERS OF THE WORLD - UNTIE!! * * * *****************************************

Hi Kathye, I checked your site today and found the following notice: nformation in this newsletter may be shared freely, provided the source (America Online Native American Genealogy) is cited. Does this mean the offensive site (I couldn't get it today, so maybe it's gone) didn't give the source? Would it be acceptable to you if it had? BTW, I was unable to get past your opening screen for the July issue, but your June issue does look more than just public domain material. If what you say is so, I agree with your concern. Dwayne Crandall dcrandal@mail.coin.missouri.edu ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Matt Roller's World Genealogy Archive Author: listowners@rootsweb.com at internet-ext Date: 7/19/97 11:55 AM Excuse me, Dwayne, but I just found something VERY OFFENSIVE about that web site. I just used his search engine for "NATIVE AMERICAN" and the keyword "Carlisle" to search for an article I wrote on the Carlisle Indian School. To my not-too-big surprise, I found my whole newsletter there. You can judge for yourselves if it was copied or not...the original is at http://members.aol.com/gfskate/index.htm and the copy is at: http://144.35.8.177/search/indian/SIGNEWS8.TXT I tried to "Sign the Guestbook" with my AOL address to show ownership of the page in question, but kept getting a server error. I wonder if he had that address blocked? I managed to sign it using this address, though, and told him I didn't appreciate my work being plagiarized, as there were no headers or footers showing where the text came from, although the individual articles did at least show the author's names. I asked him to either provide the full text, with headers and footers intact, or just provide a link to my pages. What steams me is that it's not only my work that's being stolen, but my contributors also. How long will a newsletter last when people have to be afraid someone else will take their articles and claim it for their own? Kathye Hyde Rutledge Family List Rutledge Query Page http://members.aol.com/kathyehyde/Rutledge/queries.htm A Time for Sharing, Native American Genealogy Newsletter http://members.aol.com/gfskate/index.htm My Family Treehouse http://members.aol.com/kathyehyde/index.html Tawodi's Native American Genealogy Links http://members.aol.com/tawodi/index.html crandald@ext.missouri.edu wrote: > > Excuse me John, > > I see nothing offensive about the site, you seem to condemn or > that it > appears to have been officially LDS sanctioned. I can't see any > charges being asked either. >

Eloquenty put Sandra. Dwayne ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: BEWARE--Your data could be taken next - & SHARED??? Author: listowners@rootsweb.com at internet-ext Date: 7/20/97 2:34 PM DO NOT FLAME ME FOR THIS, I HAVE A RIGHT TO HAVE MY OWN OPINION. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Having watched TWO (2) controversies going on for the past week, I wanted to add my TWO (2) cents worth. When the 1st controversy started, I, too, was up in arms. There was a report of a man, Cliff Shaw, who had a place called GenForum, or www.genforum.com. Well, I went over and checked it out and evidently his page was started about 15 July 1997. The idea was that you could type in a surname and make a post to it or read what had been posted in his "FORUM" and then someone seeking that surname could come along and either make a new post or make a comment about "that" post. If it had not been mentioned on the list-owner's mailing list, I would never have known about it. But, I went over and saw it and even sent him an E-mail asking him to take my mailing list off his "FORUM". He answered me, said, "no, go away". Well, I get real tired of flame wars, real quick, because I really have better things to do than to get involved, but being human, I have gotten involved a few times. After his answer, I went back to genealogy. Now, Cliff Shaw & Matt Roller may or may not be doing something illegal, but, so far, I have not detected any attempt, by Shaw or Roller to make money off of either page. So, I am wondering, what is all the fuss? REMEMBER, NO FLAMES, PLEASE! DOES COPYRIGHT LAW COME INTO PLAY IF THERE IS NO MONEY INVOLVED? HOW MANY OF US WOULD BE AS FAR, IN OUR GENEALOGY, AS WE ARE IF THE LDS HAD KEPT THEIR INNUMERABLE TONS OF DATA TO THEMSELVES? When I saw Roller's page, I was actually enchanted because he may (or may not) have all those supposedly "STOLEN" articles in "ONE SINGLE" place, and how great if they are together in "HIS" place and no other, it makes it very easy to see all of those articles in one place at the same time. I've never seen them before. Sort of like a 'genealogy mall'. Also, I thought genealogy was 50% sharing??? At Cliff's place, if you do not see your surname, you can apply for it and it gets created for you, RIGHT THERE, RIGHT NOW. At rootsweb, there is some delay, and they really request that you have only two surname mailing lists. Do not get me wrong, I love rootsweb, very much, but perhaps they both have a place on the INTERNET? Think about it? At rootsweb, you can post to a mailing list, and you get an E-mail of everything that is posted. At genforum, you must go over to his place and access your chosen surname and click on each posting, it is not mailed to you. Both have pros & cons. As far as Bible records, mortality records, etc, & Matt Roller, you could just point people to his page. NO FLAMES! As I write this, Sunday morn, 20 July 1997, Cliff's page is still running but you cannot get any data from Matt's place. So, I have decided to wait for a little bit more and see how it all works out before I decide to act or not. If I act, I will add my data to both sites. If I do not act, I will do nothing. I am not a lawyer and by no means an expert on copyrights and so defer to those who know way more than I do. Actually, I am kind of surprised that Cliff Shaw & Matt Roller have created these two pages, they are great looking and pretty well thought out. But, one has to wonder if they have the talents and resources to create such pages, why they did not create something more original. One thing I do know, if Matt Roller, is not kicked off the INTERNET for illegal activities, I have a killer of a file that might have found the perfect home on his page. __________________________________________________ Sandra Eleanor (TYLER) DUNCAN.....purplevw@sl.net BRANHAM list-owner.....BRANHAM-L@rootsweb.com TYLER list-owner.......TYLER-L@rootsweb.com See my surnames at: O%\..o http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/3577 Just click on Traveller to cut & paste data..... Support RootsWeb! Go NOW to: http://www.rootsweb.com/ "~,~"~,~"~,~"~,~"~,~"~,~"~,~"~,~"~,~"~,~"~,~"~,~"~,~" __________________________________________________ PARTIAL MESSAGE FOLLOWS___________________________ At 09:39 AM 7/20/97 -0400, you wrote: >Dayna Cohen McMullen,mcmullen@BIGFOOT.COM,Internet Gateway writes: >> Just a quick warning about a "person" who is building quite >>a nice web site by taking our data right off the web pages where >>we either put it ourselves or where we gave someone permission >>to post it..... >> >>The site: "The World Genealogy Archives" (not be confused with USGenWeb!!) >>TWGA is located at: <http://oasis.slcc.edu/search/> >>Maintained by a dirtbag named Matt Roller. >> >>I found the Alligood Cemetery records I transcribed to my Colquitt Co., >>GAGenWeb >>page there this morning. He DID NOT have my permission to lift them off my web >>site! He didn't ask! When I confronted him, he won't answer me or the others >>who have also emailed him. ---------------------------------snip---------------------------------------

Ok, As a listowner, I feel I can no longer tell anyone not to send attachments anymore than I can make them spell cemetery correctly. If messages are converted as attachments beyond the sender's control (special characters, for example), I don't see as how this can be eliminated. While, my mail program (Lotus cc:Mail) has no problems with attachments, I suppose there must be some products being used that do. Fortunately, I've not had any problems since the users in my lists appear not to have lengthy messages, which can also cause conversion into attachments. Dwayne Crandall listowner CRAIN-L, CLARY-L, and CRANDALL-L http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1949

Hi Margie and the rest, Was I mistaken or didn't someone say SMARTLIST or whatever removed people after 4 or 5 bounces. I have yet to see this happen, though. Can anyone clue me in? Dwayne listowner CRAIN-L, CLARY-L, and CRANDALL-L dcrandal@mail.coin.missouri.edu ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Returned mail: Service unavailable Author: listowners@rootsweb.com at internet-ext Date: 7/11/97 6:58 AM HELLO ALL, I also have one that I can not remove I have lost count of the times it has bounced.The message I get is that it can ot be removed as it dosen't exist.I wish I knew what was going on it is anoying . Margie

To Whom It May Concern: Can we change this mailing list to ListGRIPERS? Perhaps, part of the problem is the title listowners??? I mean first, we had complaints about attachments until the cows come home and now its GenForum is BAAADDD!!!, no good, lousy, and more complaints, ad nauseum. From my perspective, I manage lists attached to a particular surname. I don't own anything but am willing to share any data, helpful hints, etc. to anyone. I asked one question about Listsmart or Smartlist or whatever it's called and never got a response. Bet I'll get some from this post, though. Let the flames begin! Dwayne Crandall listmanager CLARY-L, CRAIN-L, CRANDALL-L from Scott Adams: Here's some career advice: "Ask yourself whether you prefer to hear people scream in pain (choose dentistry), scream in frustration (choose accounting), or scream in a prison shower (choose auditing)."

Kathie, Sounds to me like you are slandering me! To relate such nonsense as what you worte below about someone you do not even know shows your character. Dwayne ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re[2]: Matt Roller's World Genealogy Archive Author: listowners@rootsweb.com at internet-ext Date: 7/18/97 7:33 PM Dwayne Crandall wrote: > Excuse me John, > > I see nothing offensive about the site, you seem to condemn or that it > appears to have been officially LDS sanctioned. I can't see any > charges being asked either. Excuse me Dwayne: I see a lot wrong with Matt's page. He has taken material that I compiled from original records - including my introduction to the material. The only site that has my permission to archive that material is the GA GenWeb Project. Looks like theft to me. If you think theft is OK that is your ethical standard and you are free to live with it. > > BTW wasn't Rigdon a common name in the establishment of The Church of > Jesus Christ LDS? > What - if anything - does this have to do with the subject of theft of data? Kathie knewkirk@pacifier.com

I agree totally with you Robin. It is unsolicited requests for money via e-mail. Personally, I could probably maintain my three lists by making them moderated without solicitation of funds, but many others may not have the werewithal to do likewise. There are a few bells and whistles I like with the present setup. Dwayne Crandall listmogul CRAIN, CLARY, & CRANDALL ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: RE: Sponsor : It is Excessive Author: listowners@rootsweb.com at internet-ext Date: 9/3/97 11:49 AM Just a reminder.....that would be 4 more times per annum than I would have seen at the Maiser. What you describe is unwelcomed email to me; it is commercial, it will be identical in each mailing, it would go to hundreds of people 4 times per year. For most of them it would be unwelcomed, otherwise they would have "contributed". Had such a message come from anywhere else, it would be hailed as SPAM on this list. But SPAM does not come from Brian. As simple as it is to exclude or include list owners from your mailing, kindly allow each of us who request to be excluded not to be SPAMMED by you because you are "thoroughly committed....freely accessible to everyone". Otherwise, be up front and require my paying a list ownership Robin O. Bishop Founder/President of the Saints at FHUnion Nonmember Listowner at Rootsweb Formerly a Member of Maiser ________________ > The net result is that nonmember RootsWeb users would see 4 pieces of > e-mail from us each year. Does anyone think that that's an excessive > amount of e-mail for us to direct to nonmember users? > > BTW, RootsWeb remains thoroughly committed to the notion that > virtually all our facilities should be freely accessible to everyone, > regardless of their ability or willingness to contribute to the > operation of the site. Cheers, B. > > > -- > Dr. Brian Leverich Co-moderator, soc.genealogy.methods/GENMTD-L > RootsWeb Genealogical Data Cooperative http://www.rootsweb.com/ > P.O. Box 6798, Frazier Park, CA 93222-6798 leverich@rootsweb.com > > ______________________________ >

You got a bargain at $50 for a domain name, I was told it was $200. Guess it pays to shop around, or, is this the difference between a "registered" one and an unregistered one? Dwayne Crandall http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1949 ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Re: Sponsor Author: listowners@rootsweb.com at internet-ext Date: 9/3/97 3:39 PM >>>>> "SMP" == Stephen M Palmer <palmer@sonoma.edu> writes: SMP> Another question: I notice that Rootsweb is a .com. Is it a SMP> not for profit business or is a portion of it dedicated SMP> toward that end? If so, why is Rootsweb not a .org insteadof SMP> a .com? I know people would feel more free to donate if they SMP> were clear on this matter. Brian Leverich, the owner of rootsweb.com, has always said it is a commercial for-profit company. Note that just because a website has a .org extension does not mean it is a not-for-profit company. Pretty much *anyone* can register *any* unregistered domain name for $50/year. For example, I hold "nozell.com" -- there is no company behind it. I could also have registered "nozell.org" or "nozell.net". -marc -- Marc Nozell <marc@nozell.com> http://www.rootsweb.com/~nozell (genealogy stuff)

I've sent notice to the List of Lists called Liszt to change my old MAISER surname lists, specifically, the following: CRANDALL-L CLARY-L CRAIN-L I sent the owner a message about the moving of these lists just today. Usually would have done this myself with a listserv, listproc, or majordomo server. Since it's not, I just sent the message, hoping to get further instructions if needed. Since many of you asked what was the list, I've updated my webpage to include the capability to search Liszt for mailing lists, newsgroups, etc. My web site: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1949 BTW, I have no connection with Liszt, other than a satisfied user of its resources from time to time. Dwayne Crandall dcrandal@mail.coin.missouri.edu crandald@ext.missouri.edu

I went on vacation and just got back last week. When I checked my e-mail I had about 272 unwanted messages from this list. I thought I had unsubscribed from a predessor list called MAISER-L. Dwayne Crandall crandald@ext.missouri.edu dcrandal@mail.coin.missouri.edu