There is a rule about when the DEATH DATE IS NOT KNOWN that states you cannot submit the ordinances as soon. Persons born at least 110 years ago or married at least 95 years ago are assumed to be dead, and the ordinances can be done. I did a paste from the NFS User Guide and sent it about 2 hours ago but apparently that is not acceptable because it never was published. I suggest that we check the User's Guide in NFS as both rules are listed there. There is also an Ensign article from President Holland that was taken from Wikipedia and I checked the Ensign to be sure the quote was accurate: Counsel of LDS leaders Church general authorities have asked members to concentrate on completing the work for their own ancestors. Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve taught: Here, on this side of the veil, there are limitations of available time and temples. This means that choosing to identify and perform ordinances for our own kindred should receive our highest priority. The Spirit of Elijah will inspire individual members of the Church to link their generations, rather than submit lists of people or popular personalities to whom they are unrelated. Now, we are mindful of those not of our faith who are concerned about or even offended by the practice of temple ordinances for the dead. To them we say, our Heavenly Father directed the restoration of keys of priesthood authority and surely intended no offense to any of His children. Quite to the contrary. He intended to bless them. This doctrine and its ordinances are laden with love and are intended to perpetuate the sweetest of all relationships — in families forever. Nevertheless, the Church is sensitive to these concerns. The First Presidency has asked that, as far as possible, individual rights of privacy be protected. In 1972, they wrote, "Persons submitting names for other than direct ancestors [should] have obtained approval from the closest living relative of the deceased before submitting records of persons born within the last ninety-five years." In addition, reminders of rights of precedence and privacy appear each time our computer programs are used. Nancy Scott Cincinnati, Ohio -----Original Message----- From: lds-ward-consultant-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lds-ward-consultant-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rebecca Christensen Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 04:59 PM To: lds-ward-consultant@rootsweb.com Subject: [LDS-WC] Rights of Precedence was Re: Inappropriate entries found The "old?" policy can be found on the insert pages that came/come with a package of Family Group Record forms when ordered from Distribution.  I haven't ordered paper copies of the Family Group Record for a while, so do not know if the instruction sheet currently states the following: But here is what it said,  "Whose Names Do I Submit? Submit the names of your deceased relatives as follows: - Deceased persons born more than ninety-five years ago.  When you have identified these persons as fully as possible, submit the names of those for whom temple ordinances have not already been performed. - Deceased persons born within the past ninety-five years.  Rights of privacy and right of precedence give the immediate living family members (undivorced spouse, children, parents, and brothers and sisters) the right to submit such names or keep the from being submitted.  Unless you are a direct descendant, get permission from an immediate family member before submitting these names." Also, from "Instructions for Family History Leaders: Submitting Names for Temple Ordinances", 1987, pp. 2, 9. p. 2 "Unless you are a direct descendant of the person, you must have permission from the closest living relative before ordinances can be performed for an individual born during the past ninety-five years.  A person's closest living relative is (in the following order) an undivorced spouse, children, parents, brothers and sisters.  When you submit the name for ordinances, the Family History Department assumes you have obtained this permission." p. 9 "6. What are the rights of precedence? Rights of precedence are the rights of the living immediate family of a person born within the past 95 years to submit the person's name for temple ordinances and to serve as proxy, or to keep the ordinances from being done.   The rights of precedence belong to the closest living relative, in this order:  an undivorced spouse, a child, a father or mother, a brother or sister.  The rights of these persons precede the rights of all others. "A member may wish to submit the name of a deceased relative who was born within the past 95 years.  If the member is not a direct descendant or an immediate family member, he should obtain verbal approval from the person who has the first right of precedence before submitting the name. (Even if he is a direct descendant or immediate family member, it is strongly encouraged that he coordinate with other near relatives and ensure that his actions meet with the approval of the closest living relative.)" That was the "old??" policy.  If you were an immediate family member or direct descendant, it was not **required** to obtain permission, although it was recommended that the closest living relative's wishes be taken into account.   The rights of precedence applied "unless you are a direct descedant."     (I don't have access to the instructions that appeared in TempleReady, since it is no longer being used here.) So, when did the policy change? (And is there a document indicating the change of policy?)  I did note in my search of the Help documents on new FamilySearch this morning that the right of the immediate family or direct descendant to perform temple ordinances without asking for permission is not expressly stated in any of the documents I found. So for those who believe some of us are trying to bend the rules about immediate family and direct descendants, we are familiar with the previous published policies.     This really doesn't affect me personally - I'm an eighth generation member of the church.  All of my immediate family members and direct ancestors born during the past 95 years have done their own temple work.   (Although there are a couple of people who have submitted my living 102 year old grandmother for temple work in the 1990s.  Obviously, some rules were broken there by someone.) Rebecca Christensen --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Rebecca Christensen <rchristen@sbcglobal.net> wrote: From: Rebecca Christensen <rchristen@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [LDS-WC] Inappropriate entries found To: lds-ward-consultant@rootsweb.com Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 12:29 PM I was not trying to "paint various shades of gray." I guess the policy has changed??   I have copies of past policy documents that indicate you did not have to ask permission to do the work of parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents - your direct-line ancestors.   I do not see that specifically spelled out in any of the knowledge documents on newFamilySearch, but that was the policy in the past.  The rights of precedence rules have also been around for many years.  They are spelled out in the same policy manual.  I have been **teaching** the Rights of Precedence for about 20 years now as I have been involved in Family History callings.  They are not new. As I was looking at the online Knowledge Documents this morning  (after sending my e-mail), I did not find the exception for direct line ancestors spelled out.  (Is it really a policy change, or did it get left out unintentially?  I have never heard before that you couldn't do temple work for your father or mother.)  But I did find Knowledge documents indicating we are "responsible to provide temple ordinances for immediate family members and direct line ancestors (parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc. and their families.)" ("Policies for Preparing Names for Temple Work" - no knowledge document number attached.) There is also a Knowledge Document that addresses the issue addressed recently on the list about a parent's work being cleared by someone else who had not asked for permission.  The answer was to call Support. (Document ID: 106589)  Rebecca Christensen Please send the one word message SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE to LDS-WARD-CONSULTANT-L-REQUEST@ROOTSWEB.COM ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LDS-WARD-CONSULTANT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message