In early Louisiana history, there was a practice called "Placage"--- in which young women of color of varying percentages and "white" rich men freely entered. There was no written contracts, however the women's mother was usually given a piece of property in exchange for her daughter's "hand in marriage". There was a "marriage ceremony" and the couple lived as a married couple until such time as either party left. They developed their own society consisting of educated fpc. It was the custom for the man to claim all their children as his and they carried his surname. The children often were "white in color" and they moved between the white and black societies. The male children were educated and became store keepers, attorneys, professional men. Most of the time, but not always, the man was already married and had a "white family". The two families were kept strictly apart even though while they knew of the existence and residence of the "other" family. This practice continued until the end of the Civil War. At which time, the children were made to declare themselves as "black" or "white". An excellent book on this topic was written by Anne Rice - "The Feast of All Saints". It was made into a mini-series and shown on Showtime in 2001. It would strongly suggest reading this book to gain a further understanding of these relationships. Another good book is by Mary Gehman, "The Free People of Color of New Orleans". This gives you the opportunity to learn how the free people of color were integrated into LA society and became landowners in their own right. Good reading - How will our society's norms be judged by our descendants in 100 years? Eugenia Texas -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Carolyn Long Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 3:00 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships I'm so glad we've got this discussion going, and I hope those of you with stories like Carol's will pass the information on to Greg Orborn. I think research will show that men and women of different races had sexual relations and produced children for every sort of reason, sometimes an exercise of power on the part of a slave owner, sometimes an enslaved woman who saw an advantage to being the "master's" favorite, and sometimes mutual affection. And it wasn't always white men with women of color--sometimes it was the reverse. One of Marie Laveau's biracial great grandsons, Ernest Legendre, married a white women named Violet Caubert in 1910--in Orleans Parish, where interracial marriages were no longer legal. Armand and Gustave Macarty, sons of the white Jean Baptiste Barthelemy Macarty and the free woman of color CeCe Carpentier, went to New York City and married white women. Carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "carol stauder" <seestauder@hotmail.com> To: <laorlean@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 12:39 PM Subject: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships > > Hi everyone, > Just to chime in on this discussion. A brother of one of my ancestors had > a long term relationship with a free woman of color. He was Vincent > Alexis Porche II (1761-1830). She was Adelaide Carmouche (c.1779-1859). > They lived in Pointe Coupee. Before he died he had a document drawn up > and notarized where he acknowledged every one of the 12 children Adelaide > bore him and they were able to inherit what he left to them. To my > knowledge Adelaide never had another relationship after Vincent Alexis > died.. I have been in touch with Greg Osborn and he has a copy of that > document. > > Not to look through rose colored glasses, but there were relationships > like this and for sure there were "relationships" based on coersion and > rape. I also think that slaves knew that if the "master" favored them, > things would go better for them and they curried his favor. Unless we > were there, there is no way we can say for sure what the relationship was > truly like. > Carol Stauder > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Friends, bear with me and forgive this lengthy post. This is a subject in which I'm intensely interested. Carolyn The idea of "plaçage" is certainly the prevailing myth about interracial couples. There is indeed evidence that this happened, and that some of these arrangements took place at the "quadroon balls," but this isn't the only way in which white men and free women of color formed relationships. My thinking on this has evolved over the years, in part because of my association with scholars like Greg Osborn and Barbara Trevigne, both Creoles of Color who are descended from interracial families. I wrote in my biography of Marie Laveau (published in 2006): "In contrast to the exploitative sexual relationships between masters and slave women, white men and free women of color formed liaisons that, although unlawful, often resembled true marriages. Legally, this was termed concubinage (which refers to any domestic partnership outside of marriage regardless of the race of the parties), but in common parlance the practice was known as plaçage, from the French verb placer--to place (under a man's protection). The woman was called a plaçée. In contravention of laws forbidding whites to make donations to persons of color, the man would provide a small cottage and support his plaçée and their children for life, even if he also established a white family. The house became the property of the woman and could be passed on to her heirs." But even then I found that Marie had first been legally married to a free man of color, and it was only after she was widowed that she formed a partnership with an unmarried white man, Christophe Glapion, that lasted for the rest of his life. Of her two daughters, Heloise had children with Pierre Crocker, a free man of color who was already married; Philomene became the partner of Alexandre Legendre, a white man, only after his wife had left him and took their children to New York--this relationship lasted until he died. So none of these were cases of "plaçage." By the time I was writing my new biography of Delphine Macarty Lalaurie (published in 2012) I was finding that none of the interracial Macarty families got together through the system of plaçage, and that the women acquired their property on their own, not from their white partners, For example: Delphine's father, Louis Barthelemy Macarty, and uncle, Jean Baptiste Macarty, had relationships with free women of color after their wives died. Other Macarty men (Jean Baptiste Barthelemy, Eugene, and Augustin) were never married but had relationships with free women of color. The most interesting of these is Eulalie Mandeville de Marigny (biracial half-sister of Bernard de Marigny), who met her white partner Eugene Macarty because she allowed him to cut timber on land that she owned in St.Bernard Parish. She became a very successful business woman--see the entry on her in KnowLa, the online Louisiana Encyclopedia. Last month I gave a talk at the Worcester Art Museum in conjunction with the exhibition Julien Hudson, Free Artist of Color, which originated at the Historic New Orleans Collection. There I said that "The stereotypical narrative of the slave-holding South assumes that any mulatto child was the result of rape or coercion of the enslaved mother by a brutal white master or overseer. In New Orleans, on the other hand, a different myth prevails, of a wealthy white planter who selects a beautiful young woman of color at a so-called quadroon ball, makes an arrangement with her female relatives, establishes her in a nice cottage in the city, and visits his concubine and their children on the sly while his wife remains isolated on their rural plantation. Some interracial couples probably did meet at these elegant dances that were held for the purpose of matchmaking. But, like white couples, they also met under a variety of other circumstances." Also see this link to a lecture given at Le Musee de FPC by the Tulane University historian Emily Clark: http://www.tribunetalk.com/?features=le-musee-de-f-p-c-presents-dr-emily-clark

Carolyn, thanks for this information & the link. Throughout the years I have also heard that the placage system was mostly a myth. I was deeply engrossed in Emily Clark's lecture when it stopped playing. Did anyone else have this problem? Also, had never heard of that "house museum" though I've been in New Orleans many, many times. Judy Vinson ----- Original Message ----- From: Carolyn Long To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 6:25 AM Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships Friends, bear with me and forgive this lengthy post. This is a subject in which I'm intensely interested. Carolyn The idea of "plaçage" is certainly the prevailing myth about interracial couples. There is indeed evidence that this happened, and that some of these arrangements took place at the "quadroon balls," but this isn't the only way in which white men and free women of color formed relationships. My thinking on this has evolved over the years, in part because of my association with scholars like Greg Osborn and Barbara Trevigne, both Creoles of Color who are descended from interracial families. I wrote in my biography of Marie Laveau (published in 2006): "In contrast to the exploitative sexual relationships between masters and slave women, white men and free women of color formed liaisons that, although unlawful, often resembled true marriages. Legally, this was termed concubinage (which refers to any domestic partnership outside of marriage regardless of the race of the parties), but in common parlance the practice was known as plaçage, from the French verb placer--to place (under a man's protection). The woman was called a plaçée. In contravention of laws forbidding whites to make donations to persons of color, the man would provide a small cottage and support his plaçée and their children for life, even if he also established a white family. The house became the property of the woman and could be passed on to her heirs." But even then I found that Marie had first been legally married to a free man of color, and it was only after she was widowed that she formed a partnership with an unmarried white man, Christophe Glapion, that lasted for the rest of his life. Of her two daughters, Heloise had children with Pierre Crocker, a free man of color who was already married; Philomene became the partner of Alexandre Legendre, a white man, only after his wife had left him and took their children to New York--this relationship lasted until he died. So none of these were cases of "plaçage." By the time I was writing my new biography of Delphine Macarty Lalaurie (published in 2012) I was finding that none of the interracial Macarty families got together through the system of plaçage, and that the women acquired their property on their own, not from their white partners, For example: Delphine's father, Louis Barthelemy Macarty, and uncle, Jean Baptiste Macarty, had relationships with free women of color after their wives died. Other Macarty men (Jean Baptiste Barthelemy, Eugene, and Augustin) were never married but had relationships with free women of color. The most interesting of these is Eulalie Mandeville de Marigny (biracial half-sister of Bernard de Marigny), who met her white partner Eugene Macarty because she allowed him to cut timber on land that she owned in St.Bernard Parish. She became a very successful business woman--see the entry on her in KnowLa, the online Louisiana Encyclopedia. Last month I gave a talk at the Worcester Art Museum in conjunction with the exhibition Julien Hudson, Free Artist of Color, which originated at the Historic New Orleans Collection. There I said that "The stereotypical narrative of the slave-holding South assumes that any mulatto child was the result of rape or coercion of the enslaved mother by a brutal white master or overseer. In New Orleans, on the other hand, a different myth prevails, of a wealthy white planter who selects a beautiful young woman of color at a so-called quadroon ball, makes an arrangement with her female relatives, establishes her in a nice cottage in the city, and visits his concubine and their children on the sly while his wife remains isolated on their rural plantation. Some interracial couples probably did meet at these elegant dances that were held for the purpose of matchmaking. But, like white couples, they also met under a variety of other circumstances." Also see this link to a lecture given at Le Musee de FPC by the Tulane University historian Emily Clark: http://www.tribunetalk.com/?features=le-musee-de-f-p-c-presents-dr-emily-clark ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Happened to see a British mini series from 1997 called The Wingless Bird by Catherine Cookson. Begins shortly before WWI and ending in 1949, the story deals with classism, chauvinism, and many other "isms" of that time period with a strong female lead character. Well, since Cookson is an historical romance novelist many of the themes we assign to miscegenation and similar customs and laws applied here but with a twist. The one I found most interesting is that the heroine was unable to marry her brother-in-law after the death of her husband who died shortly after WWI ended. The reason being it was illegal in England at the time as the brother in law told her after she had fallen in love with him. I suspect, though Carolyn don't shame me for publishing this without my sources in place) that this law was the result of Henry VIII's trying to get an annulment from Catherine (his brother's widow) and the Pope refusing. So when the Church of England was politicized, marrying your brother or sister in law was prohibited under the law as incest (so Henry could marry someone else and assure his heirs would ascend the throne). The couple in the book/movie lived as husband and wife on property inherited by her from her first husband, raised their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren on the estate until they could legally marry in 1949 when the law was finally changed. I think that impediments to legal marriage have never prevented work arounds driven by love regardless of race, creed, color, national origin, or sexual orientation. Just depended on how much risk the participants chose to take. Cate ;-} -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Long Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 6:25 AM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships Friends, bear with me and forgive this lengthy post. This is a subject in which I'm intensely interested. Carolyn The idea of "plaçage" is certainly the prevailing myth about interracial couples. There is indeed evidence that this happened, and that some of these arrangements took place at the "quadroon balls," but this isn't the only way in which white men and free women of color formed relationships. My thinking on this has evolved over the years, in part because of my association with scholars like Greg Osborn and Barbara Trevigne, both Creoles of Color who are descended from interracial families. I wrote in my biography of Marie Laveau (published in 2006): "In contrast to the exploitative sexual relationships between masters and slave women, white men and free women of color formed liaisons that, although unlawful, often resembled true marriages. Legally, this was termed concubinage (which refers to any domestic partnership outside of marriage regardless of the race of the parties), but in common parlance the practice was known as plaçage, from the French verb placer--to place (under a man's protection). The woman was called a plaçée. In contravention of laws forbidding whites to make donations to persons of color, the man would provide a small cottage and support his plaçée and their children for life, even if he also established a white family. The house became the property of the woman and could be passed on to her heirs." But even then I found that Marie had first been legally married to a free man of color, and it was only after she was widowed that she formed a partnership with an unmarried white man, Christophe Glapion, that lasted for the rest of his life. Of her two daughters, Heloise had children with Pierre Crocker, a free man of color who was already married; Philomene became the partner of Alexandre Legendre, a white man, only after his wife had left him and took their children to New York--this relationship lasted until he died. So none of these were cases of "plaçage." By the time I was writing my new biography of Delphine Macarty Lalaurie (published in 2012) I was finding that none of the interracial Macarty families got together through the system of plaçage, and that the women acquired their property on their own, not from their white partners, For example: Delphine's father, Louis Barthelemy Macarty, and uncle, Jean Baptiste Macarty, had relationships with free women of color after their wives died. Other Macarty men (Jean Baptiste Barthelemy, Eugene, and Augustin) were never married but had relationships with free women of color. The most interesting of these is Eulalie Mandeville de Marigny (biracial half-sister of Bernard de Marigny), who met her white partner Eugene Macarty because she allowed him to cut timber on land that she owned in St.Bernard Parish. She became a very successful business woman--see the entry on her in KnowLa, the online Louisiana Encyclopedia. Last month I gave a talk at the Worcester Art Museum in conjunction with the exhibition Julien Hudson, Free Artist of Color, which originated at the Historic New Orleans Collection. There I said that "The stereotypical narrative of the slave-holding South assumes that any mulatto child was the result of rape or coercion of the enslaved mother by a brutal white master or overseer. In New Orleans, on the other hand, a different myth prevails, of a wealthy white planter who selects a beautiful young woman of color at a so-called quadroon ball, makes an arrangement with her female relatives, establishes her in a nice cottage in the city, and visits his concubine and their children on the sly while his wife remains isolated on their rural plantation. Some interracial couples probably did meet at these elegant dances that were held for the purpose of matchmaking. But, like white couples, they also met under a variety of other circumstances." Also see this link to a lecture given at Le Musee de FPC by the Tulane University historian Emily Clark: http://www.tribunetalk.com/?features=le-musee-de-f-p-c-presents-dr-emily-clark ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I thought this was a Catholic rule for years and years? Like this I have in my notes: Dispensations were not limited to blood relationships. There were also spiritual relationships. When a person married, that person became a spiritual member of the new spouse's family. A sister-in-law was, in a spiritual sense, a sister. This applied to brothers, cousins, etc. If a man wished to marry his late wife's first cousin, spiritually he would be marrying his own first cousin. This would require a dispensation for a second degree of affinity. Dispensations for affinity relationships were governed by the same guidelines as blood relationships of consanguinity. So, maybe this belief was not originate from the Catholic religion? I am not Catholic but so much of my family were, so I have done some research. And I want to learn as much as I can so this article is interesting to me, Cate! Shelia KRAEMER SALOMONE -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cate Schweitzer-Toepfer Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 4:23 PM To: Carolyn Long; laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships - and more into modern times Happened to see a British mini series from 1997 called The Wingless Bird by Catherine Cookson. Begins shortly before WWI and ending in 1949, the story deals with classism, chauvinism, and many other "isms" of that time period with a strong female lead character. Well, since Cookson is an historical romance novelist many of the themes we assign to miscegenation and similar customs and laws applied here but with a twist. The one I found most interesting is that the heroine was unable to marry her brother-in-law after the death of her husband who died shortly after WWI ended. The reason being it was illegal in England at the time as the brother in law told her after she had fallen in love with him. I suspect, though Carolyn don't shame me for publishing this without my sources in place) that this law was the result of Henry VIII's trying to get an annulment from Catherine (his brother's widow) and the Pope refusing. So when the Church of England was politicized, marrying your brother or sister in law was prohibited under the law as incest (so Henry could marry someone else and assure his heirs would ascend the throne). The couple in the book/movie lived as husband and wife on property inherited by her from her first husband, raised their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren on the estate until they could legally marry in 1949 when the law was finally changed. I think that impediments to legal marriage have never prevented work arounds driven by love regardless of race, creed, color, national origin, or sexual orientation. Just depended on how much risk the participants chose to take. Cate ;-} -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Long Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 6:25 AM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships Friends, bear with me and forgive this lengthy post. This is a subject in which I'm intensely interested. Carolyn The idea of "plaçage" is certainly the prevailing myth about interracial couples. There is indeed evidence that this happened, and that some of these arrangements took place at the "quadroon balls," but this isn't the only way in which white men and free women of color formed relationships. My thinking on this has evolved over the years, in part because of my association with scholars like Greg Osborn and Barbara Trevigne, both Creoles of Color who are descended from interracial families. I wrote in my biography of Marie Laveau (published in 2006): "In contrast to the exploitative sexual relationships between masters and slave women, white men and free women of color formed liaisons that, although unlawful, often resembled true marriages. Legally, this was termed concubinage (which refers to any domestic partnership outside of marriage regardless of the race of the parties), but in common parlance the practice was known as plaçage, from the French verb placer--to place (under a man's protection). The woman was called a plaçée. In contravention of laws forbidding whites to make donations to persons of color, the man would provide a small cottage and support his plaçée and their children for life, even if he also established a white family. The house became the property of the woman and could be passed on to her heirs." But even then I found that Marie had first been legally married to a free man of color, and it was only after she was widowed that she formed a partnership with an unmarried white man, Christophe Glapion, that lasted for the rest of his life. Of her two daughters, Heloise had children with Pierre Crocker, a free man of color who was already married; Philomene became the partner of Alexandre Legendre, a white man, only after his wife had left him and took their children to New York--this relationship lasted until he died. So none of these were cases of "plaçage." By the time I was writing my new biography of Delphine Macarty Lalaurie (published in 2012) I was finding that none of the interracial Macarty families got together through the system of plaçage, and that the women acquired their property on their own, not from their white partners, For example: Delphine's father, Louis Barthelemy Macarty, and uncle, Jean Baptiste Macarty, had relationships with free women of color after their wives died. Other Macarty men (Jean Baptiste Barthelemy, Eugene, and Augustin) were never married but had relationships with free women of color. The most interesting of these is Eulalie Mandeville de Marigny (biracial half-sister of Bernard de Marigny), who met her white partner Eugene Macarty because she allowed him to cut timber on land that she owned in St.Bernard Parish. She became a very successful business woman--see the entry on her in KnowLa, the online Louisiana Encyclopedia. Last month I gave a talk at the Worcester Art Museum in conjunction with the exhibition Julien Hudson, Free Artist of Color, which originated at the Historic New Orleans Collection. There I said that "The stereotypical narrative of the slave-holding South assumes that any mulatto child was the result of rape or coercion of the enslaved mother by a brutal white master or overseer. In New Orleans, on the other hand, a different myth prevails, of a wealthy white planter who selects a beautiful young woman of color at a so-called quadroon ball, makes an arrangement with her female relatives, establishes her in a nice cottage in the city, and visits his concubine and their children on the sly while his wife remains isolated on their rural plantation. Some interracial couples probably did meet at these elegant dances that were held for the purpose of matchmaking. But, like white couples, they also met under a variety of other circumstances." Also see this link to a lecture given at Le Musee de FPC by the Tulane University historian Emily Clark: http://www.tribunetalk.com/?features=le-musee-de-f-p-c-presents-dr-emily-cla rk ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message