Yes, I have found that it really helps to clearly articulate exactly what it is that you want to find. That way, someone may or will be able to answer you! Cheers, Kathy Cochran -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Linda Stokesbury Brennan Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 2:40 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] If you need help... Late night findings I've found that I have to put into words what it is I need -- and amazingly, occasionally I find what I'm looking for. My most wonderful example came when I was needing to find evidence that a family with a different spelling of the surname was actually part of my family. Many of my co-researchers disagreed, and said they thought it was too different to be the same family. At that point, I thought to myself, "I need to find a rosetta stone for this." It's hard to believe but within a couple of weeks, a new d-base was put online by the Library of Virginia--a listing of all the early chancery suits in Shenandoah County, VA. To my astonishment, I found a case which involved my ancestor, and it contained papers that spelled the surname in the exact two spellings I was trying to prove were the same family. It used the same two spellings to refer to my own ancestor. How cool is that? I really could never have imagined such a wonderful solution. I felt like I had won the lottery! So, from then on, I make it a point to define specifically what it is I need to obtain in my family history search. Kind Regards, Linda Linda Stokesbury Brennan, Lansing, MI & Natchitoches, LA Stokesbury DNA Project Administrator Researching: STOKESBURY (STUCHBURY), LAMARE, BABIN, DUNNING, OLINGER, ORR, PAINTER/BAINTER, BAUGHMAN, CLARK, HENINGER http://www.Stokesbury.org, http://www.artistsuccesskit.com http://www.familytreedna.com/public/stokesburyDNAproject ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2180 / Virus Database: 2437/5092 - Release Date: 06/25/12

Shelia, Don't know if you are a KRAEMER as in Kraemer, LA (Lafourche Parish), but you might want to try contacting Clif Theriot who is the archivist at Nicholls State University in Thibodaux about your questions. Try pasting this site in your browser and it should bring up his page. If that doesn't work type Nicholls State University Library in the browser and select his name from the drop down list. He is very, very nice and accommodating ... and knows so much about the documents of Lafourche and the family names and connections. I met him several years ago at the Lafourche Heritage Society annual meeting and took him with me to New Orleans this past All Saints' Day to visit the tomb of one of his great aunts' at St. Roch Cemetery where he had never been. You can mention my name and the context so he'll make the connection to me. Wish you lived closer to LA (BTW, where are you?). I live in Houma now originally from New Orleans and would love to have a genealogy buddy "down the bayou" who still is hunting. Keep in touch. There are 'beau coupe" TOUPS down here ... surely you'll find someone who know something. My bayou line is surname DUGAS . They came from France with the first ships to return to La. in 1785 (on Le Bergere). Originally to Plattenville, then down the bayou to Thibodaux. My grandfather Robert JONES moved to NO with his parents (Joseph JONES and Adeline DUGAS) in 1889. 2 generations later, there was me, born in NO. And what would have been about 2 generations later, we moved the Houma after Katrina. Let me stop now, before the group momma spanks me for using too much ban width with my prattles. Let me know if you contact Cliff and what you find. Good luck, Cate ;-} http://www.nicholls.edu/library/faculty_staff/clifton-theriot/ -----Original Message----- From: Shelia Salomone Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 6:15 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: [LAORLEAN] Thank you for information Just wanted to say thank you for the information about my gr-gr-grandfather Jean/John MORRIS/MAURICE obituary. The Terrebonne library graciously sent me the image today. It did clear up one mystery for me and gave me a couple to research. His death certificate stated that John B TOUPS gave all of the information on his death certificate. And none of us knew who he was. But, the obituary explained who he was. And it was a very nice relationship. John B TOUPS states that he was reared by my Grandfather Jean/John and had always regarded him with fatherly affection. Never knew that story. And I enjoy the stories much more than just dates and names! Even if they are so short. Is anyone out there related to John B TOUPS that might know more about this? But, now I have more mysteries. He named several children of my Grandfather that none of us ever heard of or found in any references. So, I am on the hunt for these people to see if there are any clues with them. John TOUPS may not have been too clear on all of his information though. He is the one that states my Grandfather was born in Lake Charles which no one else has ever heard. Thank you group for your help. Now I can do more searching. And thanks to Terrebonne Library for the image. Shelia KRAEMER SALOMONE ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

And I forgot to ask if the Catholic Church viewed inter-racial unions as forbidden. I thought that was a State law? Really curious? This group sure does send out some very interesting conversations. I belong to many Roots-L lists and NONE of them come close to this one. Good members! I am glad I found this group! Thank you, Shelia KRAEMER SALOMONE -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Shelia Salomone Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 5:07 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com; 'Carolyn Long' Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships - and more into modern times I thought this was a Catholic rule for years and years? Like this I have in my notes: Dispensations were not limited to blood relationships. There were also spiritual relationships. When a person married, that person became a spiritual member of the new spouse's family. A sister-in-law was, in a spiritual sense, a sister. This applied to brothers, cousins, etc. If a man wished to marry his late wife's first cousin, spiritually he would be marrying his own first cousin. This would require a dispensation for a second degree of affinity. Dispensations for affinity relationships were governed by the same guidelines as blood relationships of consanguinity. So, maybe this belief was not originate from the Catholic religion? I am not Catholic but so much of my family were, so I have done some research. And I want to learn as much as I can so this article is interesting to me, Cate! Shelia KRAEMER SALOMONE -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cate Schweitzer-Toepfer Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 4:23 PM To: Carolyn Long; laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships - and more into modern times Happened to see a British mini series from 1997 called The Wingless Bird by Catherine Cookson. Begins shortly before WWI and ending in 1949, the story deals with classism, chauvinism, and many other "isms" of that time period with a strong female lead character. Well, since Cookson is an historical romance novelist many of the themes we assign to miscegenation and similar customs and laws applied here but with a twist. The one I found most interesting is that the heroine was unable to marry her brother-in-law after the death of her husband who died shortly after WWI ended. The reason being it was illegal in England at the time as the brother in law told her after she had fallen in love with him. I suspect, though Carolyn don't shame me for publishing this without my sources in place) that this law was the result of Henry VIII's trying to get an annulment from Catherine (his brother's widow) and the Pope refusing. So when the Church of England was politicized, marrying your brother or sister in law was prohibited under the law as incest (so Henry could marry someone else and assure his heirs would ascend the throne). The couple in the book/movie lived as husband and wife on property inherited by her from her first husband, raised their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren on the estate until they could legally marry in 1949 when the law was finally changed. I think that impediments to legal marriage have never prevented work arounds driven by love regardless of race, creed, color, national origin, or sexual orientation. Just depended on how much risk the participants chose to take. Cate ;-} -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Long Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 6:25 AM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships Friends, bear with me and forgive this lengthy post. This is a subject in which I'm intensely interested. Carolyn The idea of "plaçage" is certainly the prevailing myth about interracial couples. There is indeed evidence that this happened, and that some of these arrangements took place at the "quadroon balls," but this isn't the only way in which white men and free women of color formed relationships. My thinking on this has evolved over the years, in part because of my association with scholars like Greg Osborn and Barbara Trevigne, both Creoles of Color who are descended from interracial families. I wrote in my biography of Marie Laveau (published in 2006): "In contrast to the exploitative sexual relationships between masters and slave women, white men and free women of color formed liaisons that, although unlawful, often resembled true marriages. Legally, this was termed concubinage (which refers to any domestic partnership outside of marriage regardless of the race of the parties), but in common parlance the practice was known as plaçage, from the French verb placer--to place (under a man's protection). The woman was called a plaçée. In contravention of laws forbidding whites to make donations to persons of color, the man would provide a small cottage and support his plaçée and their children for life, even if he also established a white family. The house became the property of the woman and could be passed on to her heirs." But even then I found that Marie had first been legally married to a free man of color, and it was only after she was widowed that she formed a partnership with an unmarried white man, Christophe Glapion, that lasted for the rest of his life. Of her two daughters, Heloise had children with Pierre Crocker, a free man of color who was already married; Philomene became the partner of Alexandre Legendre, a white man, only after his wife had left him and took their children to New York--this relationship lasted until he died. So none of these were cases of "plaçage." By the time I was writing my new biography of Delphine Macarty Lalaurie (published in 2012) I was finding that none of the interracial Macarty families got together through the system of plaçage, and that the women acquired their property on their own, not from their white partners, For example: Delphine's father, Louis Barthelemy Macarty, and uncle, Jean Baptiste Macarty, had relationships with free women of color after their wives died. Other Macarty men (Jean Baptiste Barthelemy, Eugene, and Augustin) were never married but had relationships with free women of color. The most interesting of these is Eulalie Mandeville de Marigny (biracial half-sister of Bernard de Marigny), who met her white partner Eugene Macarty because she allowed him to cut timber on land that she owned in St.Bernard Parish. She became a very successful business woman--see the entry on her in KnowLa, the online Louisiana Encyclopedia. Last month I gave a talk at the Worcester Art Museum in conjunction with the exhibition Julien Hudson, Free Artist of Color, which originated at the Historic New Orleans Collection. There I said that "The stereotypical narrative of the slave-holding South assumes that any mulatto child was the result of rape or coercion of the enslaved mother by a brutal white master or overseer. In New Orleans, on the other hand, a different myth prevails, of a wealthy white planter who selects a beautiful young woman of color at a so-called quadroon ball, makes an arrangement with her female relatives, establishes her in a nice cottage in the city, and visits his concubine and their children on the sly while his wife remains isolated on their rural plantation. Some interracial couples probably did meet at these elegant dances that were held for the purpose of matchmaking. But, like white couples, they also met under a variety of other circumstances." Also see this link to a lecture given at Le Musee de FPC by the Tulane University historian Emily Clark: http://www.tribunetalk.com/?features=le-musee-de-f-p-c-presents-dr-emily-cla rk ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Happened to see a British mini series from 1997 called The Wingless Bird by Catherine Cookson. Begins shortly before WWI and ending in 1949, the story deals with classism, chauvinism, and many other "isms" of that time period with a strong female lead character. Well, since Cookson is an historical romance novelist many of the themes we assign to miscegenation and similar customs and laws applied here but with a twist. The one I found most interesting is that the heroine was unable to marry her brother-in-law after the death of her husband who died shortly after WWI ended. The reason being it was illegal in England at the time as the brother in law told her after she had fallen in love with him. I suspect, though Carolyn don't shame me for publishing this without my sources in place) that this law was the result of Henry VIII's trying to get an annulment from Catherine (his brother's widow) and the Pope refusing. So when the Church of England was politicized, marrying your brother or sister in law was prohibited under the law as incest (so Henry could marry someone else and assure his heirs would ascend the throne). The couple in the book/movie lived as husband and wife on property inherited by her from her first husband, raised their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren on the estate until they could legally marry in 1949 when the law was finally changed. I think that impediments to legal marriage have never prevented work arounds driven by love regardless of race, creed, color, national origin, or sexual orientation. Just depended on how much risk the participants chose to take. Cate ;-} -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Long Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 6:25 AM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships Friends, bear with me and forgive this lengthy post. This is a subject in which I'm intensely interested. Carolyn The idea of "plaçage" is certainly the prevailing myth about interracial couples. There is indeed evidence that this happened, and that some of these arrangements took place at the "quadroon balls," but this isn't the only way in which white men and free women of color formed relationships. My thinking on this has evolved over the years, in part because of my association with scholars like Greg Osborn and Barbara Trevigne, both Creoles of Color who are descended from interracial families. I wrote in my biography of Marie Laveau (published in 2006): "In contrast to the exploitative sexual relationships between masters and slave women, white men and free women of color formed liaisons that, although unlawful, often resembled true marriages. Legally, this was termed concubinage (which refers to any domestic partnership outside of marriage regardless of the race of the parties), but in common parlance the practice was known as plaçage, from the French verb placer--to place (under a man's protection). The woman was called a plaçée. In contravention of laws forbidding whites to make donations to persons of color, the man would provide a small cottage and support his plaçée and their children for life, even if he also established a white family. The house became the property of the woman and could be passed on to her heirs." But even then I found that Marie had first been legally married to a free man of color, and it was only after she was widowed that she formed a partnership with an unmarried white man, Christophe Glapion, that lasted for the rest of his life. Of her two daughters, Heloise had children with Pierre Crocker, a free man of color who was already married; Philomene became the partner of Alexandre Legendre, a white man, only after his wife had left him and took their children to New York--this relationship lasted until he died. So none of these were cases of "plaçage." By the time I was writing my new biography of Delphine Macarty Lalaurie (published in 2012) I was finding that none of the interracial Macarty families got together through the system of plaçage, and that the women acquired their property on their own, not from their white partners, For example: Delphine's father, Louis Barthelemy Macarty, and uncle, Jean Baptiste Macarty, had relationships with free women of color after their wives died. Other Macarty men (Jean Baptiste Barthelemy, Eugene, and Augustin) were never married but had relationships with free women of color. The most interesting of these is Eulalie Mandeville de Marigny (biracial half-sister of Bernard de Marigny), who met her white partner Eugene Macarty because she allowed him to cut timber on land that she owned in St.Bernard Parish. She became a very successful business woman--see the entry on her in KnowLa, the online Louisiana Encyclopedia. Last month I gave a talk at the Worcester Art Museum in conjunction with the exhibition Julien Hudson, Free Artist of Color, which originated at the Historic New Orleans Collection. There I said that "The stereotypical narrative of the slave-holding South assumes that any mulatto child was the result of rape or coercion of the enslaved mother by a brutal white master or overseer. In New Orleans, on the other hand, a different myth prevails, of a wealthy white planter who selects a beautiful young woman of color at a so-called quadroon ball, makes an arrangement with her female relatives, establishes her in a nice cottage in the city, and visits his concubine and their children on the sly while his wife remains isolated on their rural plantation. Some interracial couples probably did meet at these elegant dances that were held for the purpose of matchmaking. But, like white couples, they also met under a variety of other circumstances." Also see this link to a lecture given at Le Musee de FPC by the Tulane University historian Emily Clark: http://www.tribunetalk.com/?features=le-musee-de-f-p-c-presents-dr-emily-clark ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I've found that I have to put into words what it is I need -- and amazingly, occasionally I find what I'm looking for. My most wonderful example came when I was needing to find evidence that a family with a different spelling of the surname was actually part of my family. Many of my co-researchers disagreed, and said they thought it was too different to be the same family. At that point, I thought to myself, "I need to find a rosetta stone for this." It's hard to believe but within a couple of weeks, a new d-base was put online by the Library of Virginia--a listing of all the early chancery suits in Shenandoah County, VA. To my astonishment, I found a case which involved my ancestor, and it contained papers that spelled the surname in the exact two spellings I was trying to prove were the same family. It used the same two spellings to refer to my own ancestor. How cool is that? I really could never have imagined such a wonderful solution. I felt like I had won the lottery! So, from then on, I make it a point to define specifically what it is I need to obtain in my family history search. Kind Regards, Linda Linda Stokesbury Brennan, Lansing, MI & Natchitoches, LA Stokesbury DNA Project Administrator Researching: STOKESBURY (STUCHBURY), LAMARE, BABIN, DUNNING, OLINGER, ORR, PAINTER/BAINTER, BAUGHMAN, CLARK, HENINGER http://www.Stokesbury.org, http://www.artistsuccesskit.com http://www.familytreedna.com/public/stokesburyDNAproject

I thought this was a Catholic rule for years and years? Like this I have in my notes: Dispensations were not limited to blood relationships. There were also spiritual relationships. When a person married, that person became a spiritual member of the new spouse's family. A sister-in-law was, in a spiritual sense, a sister. This applied to brothers, cousins, etc. If a man wished to marry his late wife's first cousin, spiritually he would be marrying his own first cousin. This would require a dispensation for a second degree of affinity. Dispensations for affinity relationships were governed by the same guidelines as blood relationships of consanguinity. So, maybe this belief was not originate from the Catholic religion? I am not Catholic but so much of my family were, so I have done some research. And I want to learn as much as I can so this article is interesting to me, Cate! Shelia KRAEMER SALOMONE -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cate Schweitzer-Toepfer Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 4:23 PM To: Carolyn Long; laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships - and more into modern times Happened to see a British mini series from 1997 called The Wingless Bird by Catherine Cookson. Begins shortly before WWI and ending in 1949, the story deals with classism, chauvinism, and many other "isms" of that time period with a strong female lead character. Well, since Cookson is an historical romance novelist many of the themes we assign to miscegenation and similar customs and laws applied here but with a twist. The one I found most interesting is that the heroine was unable to marry her brother-in-law after the death of her husband who died shortly after WWI ended. The reason being it was illegal in England at the time as the brother in law told her after she had fallen in love with him. I suspect, though Carolyn don't shame me for publishing this without my sources in place) that this law was the result of Henry VIII's trying to get an annulment from Catherine (his brother's widow) and the Pope refusing. So when the Church of England was politicized, marrying your brother or sister in law was prohibited under the law as incest (so Henry could marry someone else and assure his heirs would ascend the throne). The couple in the book/movie lived as husband and wife on property inherited by her from her first husband, raised their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren on the estate until they could legally marry in 1949 when the law was finally changed. I think that impediments to legal marriage have never prevented work arounds driven by love regardless of race, creed, color, national origin, or sexual orientation. Just depended on how much risk the participants chose to take. Cate ;-} -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Long Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 6:25 AM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships Friends, bear with me and forgive this lengthy post. This is a subject in which I'm intensely interested. Carolyn The idea of "plaçage" is certainly the prevailing myth about interracial couples. There is indeed evidence that this happened, and that some of these arrangements took place at the "quadroon balls," but this isn't the only way in which white men and free women of color formed relationships. My thinking on this has evolved over the years, in part because of my association with scholars like Greg Osborn and Barbara Trevigne, both Creoles of Color who are descended from interracial families. I wrote in my biography of Marie Laveau (published in 2006): "In contrast to the exploitative sexual relationships between masters and slave women, white men and free women of color formed liaisons that, although unlawful, often resembled true marriages. Legally, this was termed concubinage (which refers to any domestic partnership outside of marriage regardless of the race of the parties), but in common parlance the practice was known as plaçage, from the French verb placer--to place (under a man's protection). The woman was called a plaçée. In contravention of laws forbidding whites to make donations to persons of color, the man would provide a small cottage and support his plaçée and their children for life, even if he also established a white family. The house became the property of the woman and could be passed on to her heirs." But even then I found that Marie had first been legally married to a free man of color, and it was only after she was widowed that she formed a partnership with an unmarried white man, Christophe Glapion, that lasted for the rest of his life. Of her two daughters, Heloise had children with Pierre Crocker, a free man of color who was already married; Philomene became the partner of Alexandre Legendre, a white man, only after his wife had left him and took their children to New York--this relationship lasted until he died. So none of these were cases of "plaçage." By the time I was writing my new biography of Delphine Macarty Lalaurie (published in 2012) I was finding that none of the interracial Macarty families got together through the system of plaçage, and that the women acquired their property on their own, not from their white partners, For example: Delphine's father, Louis Barthelemy Macarty, and uncle, Jean Baptiste Macarty, had relationships with free women of color after their wives died. Other Macarty men (Jean Baptiste Barthelemy, Eugene, and Augustin) were never married but had relationships with free women of color. The most interesting of these is Eulalie Mandeville de Marigny (biracial half-sister of Bernard de Marigny), who met her white partner Eugene Macarty because she allowed him to cut timber on land that she owned in St.Bernard Parish. She became a very successful business woman--see the entry on her in KnowLa, the online Louisiana Encyclopedia. Last month I gave a talk at the Worcester Art Museum in conjunction with the exhibition Julien Hudson, Free Artist of Color, which originated at the Historic New Orleans Collection. There I said that "The stereotypical narrative of the slave-holding South assumes that any mulatto child was the result of rape or coercion of the enslaved mother by a brutal white master or overseer. In New Orleans, on the other hand, a different myth prevails, of a wealthy white planter who selects a beautiful young woman of color at a so-called quadroon ball, makes an arrangement with her female relatives, establishes her in a nice cottage in the city, and visits his concubine and their children on the sly while his wife remains isolated on their rural plantation. Some interracial couples probably did meet at these elegant dances that were held for the purpose of matchmaking. But, like white couples, they also met under a variety of other circumstances." Also see this link to a lecture given at Le Musee de FPC by the Tulane University historian Emily Clark: http://www.tribunetalk.com/?features=le-musee-de-f-p-c-presents-dr-emily-cla rk ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Just wanted to say thank you for the information about my gr-gr-grandfather Jean/John MORRIS/MAURICE obituary. The Terrebonne library graciously sent me the image today. It did clear up one mystery for me and gave me a couple to research. His death certificate stated that John B TOUPS gave all of the information on his death certificate. And none of us knew who he was. But, the obituary explained who he was. And it was a very nice relationship. John B TOUPS states that he was reared by my Grandfather Jean/John and had always regarded him with fatherly affection. Never knew that story. And I enjoy the stories much more than just dates and names! Even if they are so short. Is anyone out there related to John B TOUPS that might know more about this? But, now I have more mysteries. He named several children of my Grandfather that none of us ever heard of or found in any references. So, I am on the hunt for these people to see if there are any clues with them. John TOUPS may not have been too clear on all of his information though. He is the one that states my Grandfather was born in Lake Charles which no one else has ever heard. Thank you group for your help. Now I can do more searching. And thanks to Terrebonne Library for the image. Shelia KRAEMER SALOMONE

Cate, I sit here with a big smile on my face as I have always said the prayer to St. Anthony when I have lost something and I have always put money in the St. Anthony Poor Box after he comes through, but I NEVER thought to pray to him to find lost ancestors!!!! I'll have to try that and see if it works for me. Thanks for the hint! Julie -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cate Schweitzer-Toepfer Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 5:09 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] If you need help... Late night findings They could have been Alsatians and still been German ... just depended on what duke, prince, king, whatever title, won the gang war/border squabble of the week. And after all the Franks were Germans back in the day of Karl Magnus (Charlemagne). Yes the infighting was that bad and that's why so many came in the mid 1800s. And where their sympathies lay before arriving in the US influenced the their declared country of allegiance. My half Cajun grandfather's ancestors were reported in family oral history by my grandmother (his wife who was 100% German ancestry and whose father did not want her to "marry that Frenchman from the country") to have come from from Alsace-Lorraine (maybe a more palatable place to her Pa because he could have had some German ancestry) and Grandpa Bob spoke Parisian French not "that French from the country". Not true. Can trace his mother's Cajun lineage all the way back to the 1500's from France (Provence area) to Acadie to St. Malo in the Grand Derangement in 1755 to NO and on Assumption parish then down the bayou in 1785. Not even a stop over in Paris. But my real brick wall is with my bayou great g/father whose name was Joseph Jones and whose civil/church records located to date (census, marriage, death) declare him to have been born in KY (in about 1839) with a father named William Jones and mother Elizabeth Duren (as spelled by the French priest at St. Joseph's in Thibodaux on his marriage certificate - but I think it was more likely Dunham or Durham) both born in KY. Have lots of Wm. Joneses in KY ... some even married to Elizabeths (Elizas, Lizzies, etc), but haven't found the right time slot for his birth. Europeans kept much better records than in the US the the old days. I suspect he came down the Mississippi on a keel, flat or raft boat and could only afford a ticket as far as Donaldsonville then was "disembarked" and walked the rest of the way following Bayou Lafourche until someone offered him a job and he met Adelina! Aaaww... thanks Joe and Adelina. On to the other thread about "whispering ancestors" ... this has happened to me so much over the years, I now say a little prayer before doing some especially intent research to ask their and a saint's help. Carolyn Long will love my spiritual practice. I pray to St. Anthony, the lost and found saint for you non-Catholics, that goes like this: "Tony, Tony look around something's (or someone's) lost that must be found" (a prayer taught to me by a coworker from Marksville many, many years ago) Than I offer him a monetary amount for the poor box (amount usually dependent on how important the intention is or how quickly I'd like a resolution). He nearly always comes through and I nearly always pay up. Now I don't mean this in a sacrilegious way. Just one of my techniques meaningful coincidences rather and blind pigs looking for acorns. Cate ;-} -----Original Message----- From: Kathy Cochran Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 1:57 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] If you need help... Late night findings I'm curious about what you found AFTER he died, that wasn't available BEFORE he died. Also, some of my brick walls are living people. A 2nd cousin of mine REFUSES to believe that our Borns came from Germany, and were German throughout all the wars............because my grandmother and her mother had always reported that they were from Alsace-Lorraine. I have sent her the Declaration of Intent to Emmigrate, and birth docs, etc., but she thinks I am being "disrespectful and dismissive of the family lore." Nonetheless, it is apparent that since these stories were all passed down in the oral tradition, someone (probably my grandmother) may have been told "Alzey [Hesse-Darmstadt]" and then looked up in the Encyclopedia and found Alsace Lorraine, and erroneously construed that this was the origin of our ancestors. My cousin's Ancestry tree still shows "no father - no mother" for our g-g grandfather Jacob Born. Oh well, her loss. SHE is the brick wall! I seem to have busted through it! Cheers, Kathy -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Alexa Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 8:35 AM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] If you need help... Late night findings Pat and everyone, If you need help, just give us a holler. Some ancestors are more difficult to find. Some lines I can Brees (wink) through in one long sitting while others I've worked on for decades with little luck. As bizarre as it sounds, I've had MAJOR breakthroughs when a family member dies. The night my uncle died, within about 2 hours of his death, I broke through the brickwall of his line, which is also my mother's. I'd been searching for the people for over 30 years, and that night I found several connections to the line and its branches that gave me tons, TONS, of new information. The next day I made a trip to the courthouse in Donaldsonville and found much, much more needed information. It's happened this way for me for my own relatives several times, as well as for other people's lines I've worked on. When a member of their families died, I found goldmines worth of info almost immediately. Who says the dead don't want to be found? Some, yes, but most want their families to know about them - the good, the bad, and the ugly. Alexa - Who Dat fan all the way Genealogy research since 1974 Ancestral hauntings - I ain't afraid-a no ghosts... --- On Thu, 6/21/12, PatFreeman5@aol.com <PatFreeman5@aol.com> wrote: From: PatFreeman5@aol.com <PatFreeman5@aol.com> Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] Fold 3 - Military Records To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Date: Thursday, June 21, 2012, 10:16 AM I am glad that your ancestors whisper to you, I just wish that some of mine would whisper or even YELL. I hate it when I can't find that fact that I need to put with an ancestor. Pat ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2180 / Virus Database: 2437/5082 - Release Date: 06/20/12 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have used Mocavo. It is just a search engine that sometimes gives up some 'lost' information. I haven't found anything as of yet that I didn't know, but in genealogy you never know what you are going to find. Pat In a message dated 6/25/2012 12:48:10 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jcntsmith@aol.com writes: Has anyone any experience with Mocavo? Also in city directories after some names they have "lab", what does it mean? I probably should know but I guess I'm having a senior moment. Thanks in advance for the help. NT jcntsmith@aol.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

There are several ways to hack your email. The worst is through viruses. Sometimes you can tell if you start getting a lot of bounced mail coming back to you. So always check for that as well. Shelia -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jans884@bellsouth.net Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 7:28 AM To: LAOrleans Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] Mail hacker Question Don't think you know till someone tell you... -------Original Message------- From: Nancy Wright Date: 6/22/2012 10:14:36 AM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] Mail hacker Question A question about hacking. Would one know your address has been hacked unless someone notifies you? Nancy From: <jans884@bellsouth.net> > And btw, if you are notified that your e-mail has been hacked, > changing your password usually stops the hacker. > > Jan S - Orlando, FL > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Jennifer, Do you think we might be tied to the same families? I am also trying to locate the MAURICE progenitor(s) to LA. I find them in several places (Canada, France, England, other European nations). If I find them I might be able to work backwards through them. Do you know? And do you have more information on them that might be able to help me. Shelia -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jennifer Morris Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 9:50 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] John Morris I feel your pain. My husband's grgrandfather's name was also John Morris and we've also been told that the name was originally Maurice. His family was from St. John the Baptist and later WBR Parish. Such a common name has been a pain to research. Jennifer ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I don't think this is mine. My Jean/John was born 1853, 1855, or 1856. This John would probably be too young to be his father. But, it could still be a lead if he is say a namesake to my two Jean/John's. So, every little thing helps. Thank you for the information, Barbara. Did it say he was black? I run across a lot of black MORRIS and MAURICE as well. Shelia -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Barbara Munson Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 7:24 PM To: Orleans List Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] My brick wall from the newbie Shelia, There's a John Morris in the state death index who died in Calcasieu Parish 6/9/1915 at the age of 74.  This would mean he was born c. 1840.  If you're interested in ordering his death certificate, it's Page: 16944 Volume: 5 of the 1915 statewide death records.  This may or may not be your Jean Maurice, but the death certificate would likely list his wife's name. Barbara Munson ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Though my Dictionary search for English, French, and Spanish did not yield a meaning, my Google search says there is a www.*mocavo*.com, and it is a new genealogy site. Voila. Who knows. Joan Schaefer On 6/25/2012 12:54 PM, Martha Carpenter wrote: > I believe that it means laborer. Many citie directories listed a person > occupation after their name. > > Martha > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jcntsmith@aol.com> > To: <laorlean@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 12:47 PM > Subject: [LAORLEAN] Mocavo > > >> Has anyone any experience with Mocavo? Also in city directories after >> some names they have "lab", what does it mean? I probably should know >> but I guess I'm having a senior moment. >> >> Thanks in advance for the help. >> NT >> jcntsmith@aol.com >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Has anyone any experience with Mocavo? Also in city directories after some names they have "lab", what does it mean? I probably should know but I guess I'm having a senior moment. Thanks in advance for the help. NT jcntsmith@aol.com

I believe that it means laborer. Many citie directories listed a person occupation after their name. Martha ----- Original Message ----- From: <jcntsmith@aol.com> To: <laorlean@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 12:47 PM Subject: [LAORLEAN] Mocavo > Has anyone any experience with Mocavo? Also in city directories after > some names they have "lab", what does it mean? I probably should know > but I guess I'm having a senior moment. > > Thanks in advance for the help. > NT > jcntsmith@aol.com > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

So far the only thing I've found on Mocavo are the multitude of posts that I've put online about my ancestors.  My ancestors do have very common English names, though.  There's a gentleman in my genealogy society who says he's had a lot of success using Mocavo. I should say that there is a paid version of Mocavo, but I've only tried the free site. And I agree with Martha - LAB = laborer. Barbara Munson ________________________________ From: "jcntsmith@aol.com" <jcntsmith@aol.com> To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 12:47 PM Subject: [LAORLEAN] Mocavo Has anyone any experience with Mocavo?  Also in city directories after some names they have "lab", what does it mean?  I probably should know but I guess I'm having a senior moment. Thanks in advance for the help. NT jcntsmith@aol.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I feel your pain. My husband's grgrandfather's name was also John Morris and we've also been told that the name was originally Maurice. His family was from St. John the Baptist and later WBR Parish. Such a common name has been a pain to research. Jennifer

Shelia, There's a John Morris in the state death index who died in Calcasieu Parish 6/9/1915 at the age of 74.  This would mean he was born c. 1840.  If you're interested in ordering his death certificate, it's Page: 16944 Volume: 5 of the 1915 statewide death records.  This may or may not be your Jean Maurice, but the death certificate would likely list his wife's name. Barbara Munson

I'm not sure about new resources for the 19th century, the only new resources are for the 20th century being compiled by the Terrebonne Genealogical Society and others.  Rechecking some of the old sources is always a good idea, especially online sources that keep being updated. Who was the mother of John Morris' children? Maybe his family were fairly recent immigrants when he was born, or maybe first generation in the country?  Maybe their name wasn't originally Maurice?  I found lots of interesting names:  Morice, Morrisey, Morse...various spellings of similar names. I did see several people named Jean Maurice and even more name John Morris (many black) so it's a daunting task.  Was Jean/John born in the Lafourche area where he died? I wouldn't advise researching all the MAURICE and MORRIS in Louisiana.  I would say checking out all the people named Jean Maurice and John Morris born about the same time as your two Jeans, and near the same area/s could be a start. I have to say, this line is as bad as my GEORGE line, a whole slew of people who want to remain hidden.  To make it worse, they have such common names.  MAURICE isn't so common, but it gets more so when Jean is added, especially in Louisiana.  If I had a nickel for everyone I've encountered in my research! I found these people in the Terrebonne Life Lines Index.  Twenty-five years of publishing and these are the only ones with the Maurice name: Maurice, Albertine; 5:37 Summ '86 Maurice, Charles; 8:29 Fall '89 Maurice, Etienne; 8:30 Fall '89 Maurice, Joseph; 13:41 Summ '94 Maurice, Justilien; 8:29 Fall '89 Maurice, Justillien; 10:36 Fall '91 Morris & Schaffer; 9:17 Summ '90 Morris, Antoine; 10:52 Summ '91 Morris, Barry; 9:3 Summ '90 Morris, Benjamin; 10:49 Summ '91 Morris, Calvin; 2:75 Summ '83; 4:16 Fall '85; 5:33 Wint '86 Morris, Charles; 13:57 Summ '94; 9:20 Sprg '90 Morris, Charley Jr.; 19:309 Wint '00 Morris, Charlotte; 18:222 Fall '99 Morris, David; 4:16 Wint '85 Morris, Ed. W.; 18:125 Summ '99 Morris, Edward; 18:121 Summ '99 Morris, Emile Edouard; 18:121 Summ '99 Morris, Emma Cenac; 1:66 Fall '82 Morris, Emma Claire Cenac; 4:73 Fall '85 Morris, Ephraim; 7:96 Fall '88 Morris, F. L.; 11:27 Wint '92 Morris, George; 16:254 Wint '97; 7:6 Fall '88 Morris, Ivy L.; 19:91 Summ '00 Morris, James G.; 19:58 Sprg '00 Morris, James Gardner; 19:65 Sprg '00 Morris, Joseph R.; 6:59 Summ '87 Morris, Mary A.; 18:221 Fall '99 Morris, Paul; 13:32 Fall '94 Morris, Private; 1:7 Summ '82 Morris, Raphael; 9:34 Sprg '90 Morris, Robert Lane; 16:142 Summ '97 Morris, Sidney; 18:218 Fall '99 Morris, Sylvester; 19:310 Wint '00 Morris, V.; 10:11 Wint '91 Morris, W. S. P. O.; 16:37 Sprg '97 Morris, W.; 16:262 Wint '97 Morris, W.L.P.O.; 4:38 Wint '85 Morris, W.P.L.O.; 10:47 Sprg '91 Morris, W.S.C.P.; 10:46 Sprg '91 Morris, W.S.P.O.; 10:54 Sprg '91 Morris, William; 18:121 Summ '99 Morris, Willie; 18:229 Fall '99 Morris; 14:4 Sprg '95; 3:17 Wint '84; 4:70 Sprg '85; 4:74 Summ '85 Alexa --- On Sat, 6/23/12, Shelia Salomone <salomos@comcast.net> wrote: From: Shelia Salomone <salomos@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] My brick wall from the newbie To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Date: Saturday, June 23, 2012, 5:17 AM I agree with your logic. But, unfortunately I can't do this with this couple. The only information I have is their son Jean's family. And he would not talk about his family so even this couples grandchildren did not know anything about their grandparents or even Aunts or Uncles or cousins. We don't know if their son Jean had siblings even. So, there is no where to go with the extended family. But, I think I will just start putting together all of the MAURICE families in LA and see if something pops! I have searched all of Father HEBERT's books, Diocese of Baton Rouge, Diocese of New Orleans, and several books. Also, Roots Web, familysearch, and ancestry. What would you suggest as more sources in LA where I might get lucky? Like I said earlier many of my LA family have done research over the last 40+ years with no luck and they had access to many of the resources there. Is there any newer sources that they might not have searched? I estimate this couple was probably born around 1830s but is only a guess. Thank you, Shelia -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Alexa Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 1:23 AM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] My brick wall from the newbie Another thing I do is track people with the same surname in the same locality.  I track their extended families, too.  Most times I've found a relationship connection to my original person. Another trick is to research thoroughly all of the people related to the original person, even people related to spouses of siblings, cousins, etc.  Can't tell you how many times those extended "relatives" have given me clues and solved mysteries. Obituaries and society marriage notices are extremely helpful. Don't forget cemeteries.  Many times family members are buried in the same cemetery, in the same tomb, or sometimes in the same area of a cemetery.  Copy the names and research them, too. Alexa   --- On Fri, 6/22/12, jans884@bellsouth.net <jans884@bellsouth.net> wrote: From: jans884@bellsouth.net <jans884@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] My brick wall from the newbie To: "LAOrleans" <laorlean@rootsweb.com> Date: Friday, June 22, 2012, 9:10 AM As a matter of fact I did this with two parts of my family from Louisiana I collected all the HEPP and the POTTIER/POTIER/POTHIER folks in trees and then began to put them together.  That and tons of suggestions from Christophe Landry and Creole KCat finally figured out my group.  Works great and then can be merged when you figure it all out. Jan S - Orlando, FL -------Original Message------- From: Shelia Salomone Date: 6/22/2012 4:36:56 AM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] My brick wall from the newbie I forgot to ask another question regarding this query/help request. Does anyone know who the MAURICE and SEMOUR/SYMOURE progenitors were? I might try to work backwards. And another thing I thought about doing was to list all MAURICE names that can be found in LA.  (Just do genealogy trees with this name.). And then try to group them into families. Has anyone ever done this kind of strategy and been successful with finding their long lost brick wall ancestor? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Carolyn, thanks for this information & the link. Throughout the years I have also heard that the placage system was mostly a myth. I was deeply engrossed in Emily Clark's lecture when it stopped playing. Did anyone else have this problem? Also, had never heard of that "house museum" though I've been in New Orleans many, many times. Judy Vinson ----- Original Message ----- From: Carolyn Long To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 6:25 AM Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships Friends, bear with me and forgive this lengthy post. This is a subject in which I'm intensely interested. Carolyn The idea of "plaçage" is certainly the prevailing myth about interracial couples. There is indeed evidence that this happened, and that some of these arrangements took place at the "quadroon balls," but this isn't the only way in which white men and free women of color formed relationships. My thinking on this has evolved over the years, in part because of my association with scholars like Greg Osborn and Barbara Trevigne, both Creoles of Color who are descended from interracial families. I wrote in my biography of Marie Laveau (published in 2006): "In contrast to the exploitative sexual relationships between masters and slave women, white men and free women of color formed liaisons that, although unlawful, often resembled true marriages. Legally, this was termed concubinage (which refers to any domestic partnership outside of marriage regardless of the race of the parties), but in common parlance the practice was known as plaçage, from the French verb placer--to place (under a man's protection). The woman was called a plaçée. In contravention of laws forbidding whites to make donations to persons of color, the man would provide a small cottage and support his plaçée and their children for life, even if he also established a white family. The house became the property of the woman and could be passed on to her heirs." But even then I found that Marie had first been legally married to a free man of color, and it was only after she was widowed that she formed a partnership with an unmarried white man, Christophe Glapion, that lasted for the rest of his life. Of her two daughters, Heloise had children with Pierre Crocker, a free man of color who was already married; Philomene became the partner of Alexandre Legendre, a white man, only after his wife had left him and took their children to New York--this relationship lasted until he died. So none of these were cases of "plaçage." By the time I was writing my new biography of Delphine Macarty Lalaurie (published in 2012) I was finding that none of the interracial Macarty families got together through the system of plaçage, and that the women acquired their property on their own, not from their white partners, For example: Delphine's father, Louis Barthelemy Macarty, and uncle, Jean Baptiste Macarty, had relationships with free women of color after their wives died. Other Macarty men (Jean Baptiste Barthelemy, Eugene, and Augustin) were never married but had relationships with free women of color. The most interesting of these is Eulalie Mandeville de Marigny (biracial half-sister of Bernard de Marigny), who met her white partner Eugene Macarty because she allowed him to cut timber on land that she owned in St.Bernard Parish. She became a very successful business woman--see the entry on her in KnowLa, the online Louisiana Encyclopedia. Last month I gave a talk at the Worcester Art Museum in conjunction with the exhibition Julien Hudson, Free Artist of Color, which originated at the Historic New Orleans Collection. There I said that "The stereotypical narrative of the slave-holding South assumes that any mulatto child was the result of rape or coercion of the enslaved mother by a brutal white master or overseer. In New Orleans, on the other hand, a different myth prevails, of a wealthy white planter who selects a beautiful young woman of color at a so-called quadroon ball, makes an arrangement with her female relatives, establishes her in a nice cottage in the city, and visits his concubine and their children on the sly while his wife remains isolated on their rural plantation. Some interracial couples probably did meet at these elegant dances that were held for the purpose of matchmaking. But, like white couples, they also met under a variety of other circumstances." Also see this link to a lecture given at Le Musee de FPC by the Tulane University historian Emily Clark: http://www.tribunetalk.com/?features=le-musee-de-f-p-c-presents-dr-emily-clark ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message