Jan, The record I have for a sacramental marriage is between one of my sets of maternal great grand parents. It is not a certified true copy, but rather just a microfilmed record of the marriage book record which I recall having gotten either at the NOPL or the state archives. It's the kind of record listed in the NOVA index pages. This is how the return service reads though it is a poor copy: "This is to Certify, That it appears from the Records of this office, that on this day, to wit: the {Sixth of January} in the year of our Lord, on thousand eight hundred and {Seventy four} and the ninety {eighth} of the Independence of the United States of America, {Jany 6th, 1874} was registered the marriage, celebrated in the city of {New Orleans} by {Rev. Durier} on the {29} day of {December 1873} between {John Heire} aged {blank} years (____years) a native of Louisiana son of {Louisa Heire and F. Heire} and {Louisa Weinberg} aged (____years) a native of {Louisiana} daughter of {Martin Weinberg and Lena Weinburg}. The celebration of the marriage was performed in the presence of the witnesses {cursive written names: Ninnie Alphonse & H. Drenn}. The License was issued on the {29th} day of {Oct 1873} by Hon {John Cain} 4th. Justice of the Peace, in the presence of the witnesses { cursive written: Anna Alphonse & Henry Drenn} {stamped with illegible name} Recorder of Births, Marriages and Deaths License returned and filed, Book No. J Folio 146" And of course I always have comments or explanations to go along with the source documents: { } - indicate items cursively hand written into the form " " - my transcription of document as I can read it. - Father Durier was pastor of Annunciation Church at the time. However, I don't know if they were married in the church proper or in the priest's parlor {sacramental blessing of a civil marriage by Justice of the Peace Cain.] This is quite possible since the license was issued two months before the marriage by the priest and I have never researched the licensing process for them since the marriage record was filed with the Recorders office. But, and as a family historian, you know there is always a but ... the old marriage license by banns or by bond is a question seems at play in your case. The Readers' Digest version of the "but", if you were a new immigrant, you almost certainly had to post a surety bond to get a license to marry. And most of the time the couples were married the same day by the JP first, even if a religious blessing was held later. If you were native born (as both John and Louisa were and lived in the church parish at the time) the clergy could get the license because he probably knew about you and there wasn't another spouse somewhere in the "old country" and he was surely more literate than most and could act as your agent rather than a needing a "bondsman" put up money on your behalf. My suggestion would be to try to locate your ancestors on the NOVA indexes and get the copy of that document ... not just the license... if it exists and was returned by the clergy or recorded by the JP. With other ancestors, I have yet to find anything but the license application and in some cases I have found neither ... only a married couple declared in a census record as proof of marriage. I figure, if it doesn't get me a big inheritance, I'm not getting in a big twit about a "legality" of more than 100 years ago, until I have solved all the other mysteries first. Even St. Anthony hasn't come through yet for some of them, but then I never promised the poor a reward either. <g> Cate ;-} PS Hope this makes sense to you. If not write me at my personal address and I'll try to think of other paths. -----Original Message----- From: Jan Delgehausen Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 7:05 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] Second Justice of the Peace question Cate, I checked my notes from the 1869 Gardner's New Orleans City Directory which lists my Christopher Dillon family living "Austerlitz, corner Live Oak(today, Constance), Jefferson City." The same address is listed as early as 1853. So, the church would have been nearby. I am not certain about their religious affiliation......the older daughters were married in the Catholic Churches in parishes other than Orleans. For your "found certificates," where did you look???? In the Orleans Parish Courthouse, maybe? Jan -----Original Message----- From: Cate Schweitzer-Toepfer Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 5:50 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] Second Justice of the Peace question Jan, I think I found your reverend and church name in the NO 1870 City Directory on Fold3 ... and yes I said my St. Anthony prayer before searching. Now you'll see he can be a powerful intercessor ... even if the target isn't Catholic! Cate ;-} City Directory - New Orleans - 1870 (can't find the publisher information ... volume starts on page 32) page 257 Goodwyn, Philo. M. Rev. pastor, Cadiz St. Methodist Church, r. Cadiz, between Laurel and Jersey, Jefferson Now for my two cents... - Cadiz and Laurel are still street in NO, Jersey is probably now Annunciation St. (check NOPL web site) - I checked Google and it is Annunciation. - Jefferson refers to the city of Jefferson which is now a part of NO (also check Library and our friend Norm H. the map and church expert) - don't know anything about the Methodist Church records, perhaps Norm can give some insight. Now at 1201 Cadiz is a church call the Historic St. Peter African Methodist Episcopal Church. - do know not all " religious officiants" were diligent in returning papers to the courts (I have some I could never find service returns on), but I don't think there was strict accountability of the documents or nullification of marriages for lack of paper work returns. Hope this helps. C. -----Original Message----- From: Jan Delgehausen Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 3:37 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: [LAORLEAN] Second Justice of the Peace question Recently, I ordered an Orleans Parish Marriage from the Justice of the Peace Index, dated 22 Nov 1870, VEC 678; pg. 355 It contained the information I was seeking. However, at the bottom of the document was a paragraph I have never seen before on any other Justice of the Peace marriage record.... and I have a few. It read: “The State of Louisiana, Parish of Orleans----City of new Orleans. License is hereby granted to the Rev’d (cannot read his name—may be P. M. Gordinn?) or any other person authorized by law to join in the Bonds of Matrimony (groom’s name) and (bride’s name) on complying with the legal Formalities; and he is required by law to return to this Court within thirty days a Certificate of the Celebration of Marriage hereby authorized, signed by himself, by the parties and three witnesses.” If there is a certificate with this information, where would I find it? I invite comments. Thanks to each of you, for your generous lookups, information and ideas, and discussions of all things New Orleans. Jan Delgehausen Baton Rouge, Louisiana ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Cate, I checked my notes from the 1869 Gardner's New Orleans City Directory which lists my Christopher Dillon family living "Austerlitz, corner Live Oak(today, Constance), Jefferson City." The same address is listed as early as 1853. So, the church would have been nearby. I am not certain about their religious affiliation......the older daughters were married in the Catholic Churches in parishes other than Orleans. For your "found certificates," where did you look???? In the Orleans Parish Courthouse, maybe? Jan -----Original Message----- From: Cate Schweitzer-Toepfer Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 5:50 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] Second Justice of the Peace question Jan, I think I found your reverend and church name in the NO 1870 City Directory on Fold3 ... and yes I said my St. Anthony prayer before searching. Now you'll see he can be a powerful intercessor ... even if the target isn't Catholic! Cate ;-} City Directory - New Orleans - 1870 (can't find the publisher information ... volume starts on page 32) page 257 Goodwyn, Philo. M. Rev. pastor, Cadiz St. Methodist Church, r. Cadiz, between Laurel and Jersey, Jefferson Now for my two cents... - Cadiz and Laurel are still street in NO, Jersey is probably now Annunciation St. (check NOPL web site) - I checked Google and it is Annunciation. - Jefferson refers to the city of Jefferson which is now a part of NO (also check Library and our friend Norm H. the map and church expert) - don't know anything about the Methodist Church records, perhaps Norm can give some insight. Now at 1201 Cadiz is a church call the Historic St. Peter African Methodist Episcopal Church. - do know not all " religious officiants" were diligent in returning papers to the courts (I have some I could never find service returns on), but I don't think there was strict accountability of the documents or nullification of marriages for lack of paper work returns. Hope this helps. C. -----Original Message----- From: Jan Delgehausen Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 3:37 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: [LAORLEAN] Second Justice of the Peace question Recently, I ordered an Orleans Parish Marriage from the Justice of the Peace Index, dated 22 Nov 1870, VEC 678; pg. 355 It contained the information I was seeking. However, at the bottom of the document was a paragraph I have never seen before on any other Justice of the Peace marriage record.... and I have a few. It read: “The State of Louisiana, Parish of Orleans----City of new Orleans. License is hereby granted to the Rev’d (cannot read his name—may be P. M. Gordinn?) or any other person authorized by law to join in the Bonds of Matrimony (groom’s name) and (bride’s name) on complying with the legal Formalities; and he is required by law to return to this Court within thirty days a Certificate of the Celebration of Marriage hereby authorized, signed by himself, by the parties and three witnesses.” If there is a certificate with this information, where would I find it? I invite comments. Thanks to each of you, for your generous lookups, information and ideas, and discussions of all things New Orleans. Jan Delgehausen Baton Rouge, Louisiana ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Cate, Thank you and St. Anthony. What a quick response!!! I'll print out your email and see what it leads. Very interesting. Lots of great information. Jan -----Original Message----- From: Cate Schweitzer-Toepfer Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 5:50 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] Second Justice of the Peace question Jan, I think I found your reverend and church name in the NO 1870 City Directory on Fold3 ... and yes I said my St. Anthony prayer before searching. Now you'll see he can be a powerful intercessor ... even if the target isn't Catholic! Cate ;-} City Directory - New Orleans - 1870 (can't find the publisher information ... volume starts on page 32) page 257 Goodwyn, Philo. M. Rev. pastor, Cadiz St. Methodist Church, r. Cadiz, between Laurel and Jersey, Jefferson Now for my two cents... - Cadiz and Laurel are still street in NO, Jersey is probably now Annunciation St. (check NOPL web site) - I checked Google and it is Annunciation. - Jefferson refers to the city of Jefferson which is now a part of NO (also check Library and our friend Norm H. the map and church expert) - don't know anything about the Methodist Church records, perhaps Norm can give some insight. Now at 1201 Cadiz is a church call the Historic St. Peter African Methodist Episcopal Church. - do know not all " religious officiants" were diligent in returning papers to the courts (I have some I could never find service returns on), but I don't think there was strict accountability of the documents or nullification of marriages for lack of paper work returns. Hope this helps. C. -----Original Message----- From: Jan Delgehausen Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 3:37 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: [LAORLEAN] Second Justice of the Peace question Recently, I ordered an Orleans Parish Marriage from the Justice of the Peace Index, dated 22 Nov 1870, VEC 678; pg. 355 It contained the information I was seeking. However, at the bottom of the document was a paragraph I have never seen before on any other Justice of the Peace marriage record.... and I have a few. It read: “The State of Louisiana, Parish of Orleans----City of new Orleans. License is hereby granted to the Rev’d (cannot read his name—may be P. M. Gordinn?) or any other person authorized by law to join in the Bonds of Matrimony (groom’s name) and (bride’s name) on complying with the legal Formalities; and he is required by law to return to this Court within thirty days a Certificate of the Celebration of Marriage hereby authorized, signed by himself, by the parties and three witnesses.” If there is a certificate with this information, where would I find it? I invite comments. Thanks to each of you, for your generous lookups, information and ideas, and discussions of all things New Orleans. Jan Delgehausen Baton Rouge, Louisiana ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Jan, I think I found your reverend and church name in the NO 1870 City Directory on Fold3 ... and yes I said my St. Anthony prayer before searching. Now you'll see he can be a powerful intercessor ... even if the target isn't Catholic! Cate ;-} City Directory - New Orleans - 1870 (can't find the publisher information ... volume starts on page 32) page 257 Goodwyn, Philo. M. Rev. pastor, Cadiz St. Methodist Church, r. Cadiz, between Laurel and Jersey, Jefferson Now for my two cents... - Cadiz and Laurel are still street in NO, Jersey is probably now Annunciation St. (check NOPL web site) - I checked Google and it is Annunciation. - Jefferson refers to the city of Jefferson which is now a part of NO (also check Library and our friend Norm H. the map and church expert) - don't know anything about the Methodist Church records, perhaps Norm can give some insight. Now at 1201 Cadiz is a church call the Historic St. Peter African Methodist Episcopal Church. - do know not all " religious officiants" were diligent in returning papers to the courts (I have some I could never find service returns on), but I don't think there was strict accountability of the documents or nullification of marriages for lack of paper work returns. Hope this helps. C. -----Original Message----- From: Jan Delgehausen Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 3:37 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: [LAORLEAN] Second Justice of the Peace question Recently, I ordered an Orleans Parish Marriage from the Justice of the Peace Index, dated 22 Nov 1870, VEC 678; pg. 355 It contained the information I was seeking. However, at the bottom of the document was a paragraph I have never seen before on any other Justice of the Peace marriage record.... and I have a few. It read: “The State of Louisiana, Parish of Orleans----City of new Orleans. License is hereby granted to the Rev’d (cannot read his name—may be P. M. Gordinn?) or any other person authorized by law to join in the Bonds of Matrimony (groom’s name) and (bride’s name) on complying with the legal Formalities; and he is required by law to return to this Court within thirty days a Certificate of the Celebration of Marriage hereby authorized, signed by himself, by the parties and three witnesses.” If there is a certificate with this information, where would I find it? I invite comments. Thanks to each of you, for your generous lookups, information and ideas, and discussions of all things New Orleans. Jan Delgehausen Baton Rouge, Louisiana ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Recently, I ordered an Orleans Parish Marriage from the Justice of the Peace Index, dated 22 Nov 1870, VEC 678; pg. 355 It contained the information I was seeking. However, at the bottom of the document was a paragraph I have never seen before on any other Justice of the Peace marriage record.... and I have a few. It read: “The State of Louisiana, Parish of Orleans----City of new Orleans. License is hereby granted to the Rev’d (cannot read his name—may be P. M. Gordinn?) or any other person authorized by law to join in the Bonds of Matrimony (groom’s name) and (bride’s name) on complying with the legal Formalities; and he is required by law to return to this Court within thirty days a Certificate of the Celebration of Marriage hereby authorized, signed by himself, by the parties and three witnesses.” If there is a certificate with this information, where would I find it? I invite comments. Thanks to each of you, for your generous lookups, information and ideas, and discussions of all things New Orleans. Jan Delgehausen Baton Rouge, Louisiana

Oh, yes, being retired it a joy for us genealogy addicts.... Jan S - Orlando, FL -------Original Message------- From: Cate Schweitzer-Toepfer Date: 06/25/12 23:51:47 To: LAORLEAN@rootsweb.com Subject: [LAORLEAN] Sending Merle copies of her look up This group is just too good for words. And Peggy, from one old state retiree to another, life is good when you don’t have to get up early and can do late night hunting. Cate ;-} ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Shelia, I can speak to the "donations to the church" part. Back in the late 1970's when I decided to become a Catholic, being divorced from my first husband became a problem and I had to get a dispensation, since I had remarried. I was told that the church required a sum of $ to take care of the paperwork, but that if I could not pay, I could still get the dispensation, it just might take longer Always thought that was odd, since most of the work was done by the church, but I did pay the amount. Not sure about any cost now. Jan S - Orlando, FL -------Original Message------- From: Shelia Salomone Date: 06/26/12 00:13:03 To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships - and more intomoderntimes Thank you, Cate. I have a lot of notes on this stuff but it is long and complicated so I ALWAYS have to go back to them and search it out. And these affinities were measured in degrees? Am I correct? I remember when I was young that my Aunt was marrying for the second time. She was widowed at a young age. But, she was not allowed to marry in the Catholic Church because the man she was marrying had been divorced from his first wife. I always thought that was so odd! But, after starting my genealogy and doing all the research on Catholic marriages, I see a lot of these are still in affect even in the 1970's. Not sure about now. In a conversation I had about this I was told that granting dispensations also involved money donations to the church? Not sure how true this is but I would like to know what others might know about this subject. My notes just have this as a possibility because someone once told me that. I found no references for it. I appreciate the information everyone is providing me. Thank you so much! Can you believe I hated history when I was in school but now I love it!!!! Of course that was many many many moons ago! Shelia KRAEMER SALOMONE

During the French, Spanish, and most of the American periods in Louisiana, European/Caucasion and African/Negro persons could not marry each other--although I've heard of a few such marriages during the colonial period. I can't put my hands on any examples just now. Civil marriage licenses weren't required until later, but the priest/minister knew better then to try it. One exception I found was that in 1845 Eugene Macarty (white) and Eulalie Mandeville (fwc) were married at St. Augustin's Church when they were both in their 70s (they'd been together for over 50 years and had seven children together) and Eugene was on his deathbed (thanks to Sonja MacCarthy for finding this). The priest slipped the record into the "white" book years later. From 1870 to 1894 interracial marriages were actually legal, but, as we all know, from the late nineteenth century through most of the twentieth century, Jim Crow racism prevailed. I've found that in the 1700s and the early 1800s, the Catholic Church was sympathetic to interracial couples, baptized their children, allowed the white fathers to sign the baptismal record and/or claim paternity, and the parents, who were theoretically "living in sin," were not barred from receiving communion. I don't know much about dispensations for consanguinity, because it didn't come up in the New Orleans Catholic families I've been researching. I did find several cases here in the District of Columbia where I live, where a man's wife died and left him with young children and he married his late wife's sister or cousin. When I expressed shock at this, a more seasoned local researcher said it was common. These people were most often Anglican (Episcoplaian) not Catholic. Carolyn Long

Folklore says that if you turn the picture or image of the saint upside down it will wake him up and get his attention so that he'll "work" for you. Same would probably hold true if you turned your ancestors' pictures upside down on your desk. One of my favorite quotes from the Louisiana Writers' Project interviews was with Marie Dédé, who as a child had been friends with Marie Laveau's grandchildren, especially "Memie" (Noemie Marguerite Legendre). Here's how I used it in the book, A New Orleans Voudou Priestess: "Mrs. Dédé recalled that the children would peep into the front room, which was used for services: '[Marie Laveau] had so many candles burning...I don't see how that house never caught on fire.... She had all kinds of saints' pictures and flowers on the altar.' In this room Marie also 'had a big [statue of] St. Anthony...and she would turn him upside down on his head in her yard when she had work to perform.' Then, recounted Mrs. Dédé, 'Memie would come get me and say...'Come see my grandma got St. Anthony on his head'...and [Marie Laveau]...would put us [children] out and lock the gate.'" Memie/Noemie, BTW, first had a legal marriage with a man of color named Benjamin Santanac, and later moved to Louisville, Kentucky, where she married or cohabited with a white man of German descent named John Zoller. You can find them in the census for 1910, 1920, and 1930. The family includes John Zoller, wife Noëmie, her son Alexander Santenac (from her first marriage), niece and nephew Pauline and Pierre (Frank) Legendre (her brother's children with Ernestine Llado), and several grandchildren. All were listed as white. In 1910 and 1930 Noëmie was stated to be born in Louisiana, and in 1920 her birthplace was specified as Canada. Her father's birthplace was given as France (his parents were actually white Saint-Domingue immigrants and he was born on the island of Curacao while they were enroute to New Orleans) , and her mother was supposedly born "at sea." (Her mother was actually Marie Philomene Glapion, born in New Orleans, daughter of Marie Laveau with Alexandre Legendre). Noëmie Legendre Zoller died in 1934; her father's name was recorded as "Amil Legendre and her mother's as "unknown." This all goes to show that the census and other official records aren't entirely to be trusted. I've often found that people of color who went north and "passed" tried to hide their origins in New Orleans. Carolyn Long ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie" <juliech@cox.net> To: <laorlean@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] If you need help... Late night findings > Cate, > > I sit here with a big smile on my face as I have always said the prayer to > St. Anthony when I have lost something and I have always put money in the > St. Anthony Poor Box after he comes through, but I NEVER thought to pray to > him to find lost ancestors!!!! I'll have to try that and see if it works > for me. > > Thanks for the hint! > > Julie > > -----Original Message----- > From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Cate Schweitzer-Toepfer > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 5:09 PM > To: laorlean@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] If you need help... Late night findings > > They could have been Alsatians and still been German ... just depended on > what duke, prince, king, whatever title, won the gang war/border squabble of > the week. And after all the Franks were Germans back in the day of Karl > Magnus (Charlemagne). Yes the infighting was that bad and that's why so > many came in the mid 1800s. And where their sympathies lay before arriving > in the US influenced the their declared country of allegiance. > > My half Cajun grandfather's ancestors were reported in family oral history > by my grandmother (his wife who was 100% German ancestry and whose father > did not want her to "marry that Frenchman from the country") to have come > from from Alsace-Lorraine (maybe a more palatable place to her Pa because > he could have had some German ancestry) and Grandpa Bob spoke Parisian > French not "that French from the country". Not true. Can trace his > mother's Cajun lineage all the way back to the 1500's from France (Provence > area) to Acadie to St. Malo in the Grand Derangement in 1755 to NO and on > Assumption parish then down the bayou in 1785. Not even a stop over in > Paris. > > But my real brick wall is with my bayou great g/father whose name was Joseph > Jones and whose civil/church records located to date (census, marriage, > death) declare him to have been born in KY (in about 1839) with a father > named William Jones and mother Elizabeth Duren (as spelled by the French > priest at St. Joseph's in Thibodaux on his marriage certificate - but I > think it was more likely Dunham or Durham) both born in KY. Have lots of > Wm. Joneses in KY ... some even married to Elizabeths (Elizas, Lizzies, > etc), but haven't found the right time slot for his birth. Europeans kept > much better records than in the US the the old days. I suspect he came down > the Mississippi on a keel, flat or raft boat and could only afford a ticket > as far as Donaldsonville then was "disembarked" and walked the rest of the > way following Bayou Lafourche until someone offered him a job and he met > Adelina! Aaaww... thanks Joe and Adelina. > > On to the other thread about "whispering ancestors" ... this has happened to > me so much over the years, I now say a little prayer before doing some > especially intent research to ask their and a saint's help. Carolyn Long > will love my spiritual practice. I pray to St. Anthony, the lost and found > saint for you non-Catholics, that goes like this: "Tony, Tony look around > something's (or someone's) lost that must be found" (a prayer taught to me > by a coworker from Marksville many, many years ago) Than I offer him a > monetary amount for the poor box (amount usually dependent on how important > the intention is or how quickly I'd like a resolution). He nearly always > comes through and I nearly always pay up. Now I don't mean this in a > sacrilegious way. Just one of my techniques meaningful coincidences rather > and blind pigs looking for acorns. Cate ;-} > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kathy Cochran > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 1:57 PM > To: laorlean@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] If you need help... Late night findings > > I'm curious about what you found AFTER he died, that wasn't available BEFORE > he died. > > Also, some of my brick walls are living people. A 2nd cousin of mine > REFUSES to believe that our Borns came from Germany, and were German > throughout all the wars............because my grandmother and her mother had > always reported that they were from Alsace-Lorraine. I have sent her the > Declaration of Intent to Emmigrate, and birth docs, etc., but she thinks I > am being "disrespectful and dismissive of the family lore." Nonetheless, it > is apparent that since these stories were all passed down in the oral > tradition, someone (probably my grandmother) may have been told "Alzey > [Hesse-Darmstadt]" and then looked up in the Encyclopedia and found Alsace > Lorraine, and erroneously construed that this was the origin of our > ancestors. My cousin's Ancestry tree still shows "no father - no mother" > for our g-g grandfather Jacob Born. Oh well, her loss. SHE is the brick > wall! I seem to have busted through it! > > Cheers, Kathy > > -----Original Message----- > From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Alexa > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 8:35 AM > To: laorlean@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] If you need help... Late night findings > > Pat and everyone, > > If you need help, just give us a holler. Some ancestors are more difficult > to find. Some lines I can Brees (wink) through in one long sitting while > others I've worked on for decades with little luck. > > As bizarre as it sounds, I've had MAJOR breakthroughs when a family member > dies. The night my uncle died, within about 2 hours of his death, I broke > through the brickwall of his line, which is also my mother's. I'd been > searching for the people for over 30 years, and that night I found several > connections to the line and its branches that gave me tons, TONS, of new > information. The next day I made a trip to the courthouse in Donaldsonville > and found much, much more needed information. > > It's happened this way for me for my own relatives several times, as well as > for other people's lines I've worked on. When a member of their families > died, I found goldmines worth of info almost immediately. > > Who says the dead don't want to be found? Some, yes, but most want their > families to know about them - the good, the bad, and the ugly. > > > Alexa - Who Dat fan all the way > Genealogy research since 1974 > > Ancestral hauntings - I ain't afraid-a no ghosts... > > > > --- On Thu, 6/21/12, PatFreeman5@aol.com <PatFreeman5@aol.com> wrote: > > From: PatFreeman5@aol.com <PatFreeman5@aol.com> > Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] Fold 3 - Military Records > To: laorlean@rootsweb.com > Date: Thursday, June 21, 2012, 10:16 AM > > I am glad that your ancestors whisper to you, I just wish that some of > mine would whisper or even YELL. I hate it when I can't find that fact that > I need to put with an ancestor. > > > Pat > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2180 / Virus Database: 2437/5082 - Release Date: 06/20/12 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I have learned more about history since I started my genealogy research than I ever did in school.  I think it is because I don't have to remember stuff, dates, etc.  I enjoy it because I can see the history of my ancestors as they were seeing it. Helen

It's only been 6 mos but they have been WONDERFUL ones! I like the ease of night-hunting! New Orleans Proud On Jun 25, 2012, at 10:50 PM, "Cate Schweitzer-Toepfer" <voiceofshe@hotmail.com> wrote: > This group is just too good for words. And Peggy, from one old state retiree to another, life is good when you don’t have to get up early and can do late night hunting. > Cate ;-} > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This group is just too good for words. And Peggy, from one old state retiree to another, life is good when you don’t have to get up early and can do late night hunting. Cate ;-}

Merle - I will look tonight and send you anything I might find. I love being retired & being able to do this when I want;) Peggy New Orleans Proud On Jun 25, 2012, at 9:39 PM, "Merle Ann Farrington" <celticmick@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > I need help. Trying to find out what cemetery Thomas Joseph Spear (died > Feb. 1937) is buried in. He is not in St. Louis #1 with his brothers and > sister. If someone can find his obit and send to me it may tell me > something. > > Appreciate any help. > > Merle in Texas > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Kathy Cochran" <kathys_old_house@goldrush.com> > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 9:00 PM > To: <laorlean@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] If you need help... Late night findings > >> Yes, I have found that it really helps to clearly articulate exactly what >> it >> is that you want to find. That way, someone may or will be able to answer >> you! >> >> Cheers, Kathy Cochran >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] >> On Behalf Of Linda Stokesbury Brennan >> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 2:40 PM >> To: laorlean@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] If you need help... Late night findings >> >> I've found that I have to put into words what it is I need -- and >> amazingly, >> occasionally I find what I'm looking for. >> >> My most wonderful example came when I was needing to find evidence that a >> family with a different spelling of the surname was actually part of my >> family. Many of my co-researchers disagreed, and said they thought it was >> too different to be the same family. At that point, I thought to myself, >> "I >> need to find a rosetta stone for this." >> >> It's hard to believe but within a couple of weeks, a new d-base was put >> online by the Library of Virginia--a listing of all the early chancery >> suits >> in Shenandoah County, VA. >> >> To my astonishment, I found a case which involved my ancestor, and it >> contained papers that spelled the surname in the exact two spellings I was >> trying to prove were the same family. It used the same two spellings to >> refer to my own ancestor. >> >> How cool is that? I really could never have imagined such a wonderful >> solution. I felt like I had won the lottery! >> >> So, from then on, I make it a point to define specifically what it is I >> need >> to obtain in my family history search. >> >> >> Kind Regards, >> Linda >> >> Linda Stokesbury Brennan, Lansing, MI & Natchitoches, LA Stokesbury DNA >> Project Administrator >> >> Researching: STOKESBURY (STUCHBURY), LAMARE, BABIN, DUNNING, OLINGER, ORR, >> PAINTER/BAINTER, BAUGHMAN, CLARK, HENINGER http://www.Stokesbury.org, >> http://www.artistsuccesskit.com >> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/stokesburyDNAproject >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2012.0.2180 / Virus Database: 2437/5092 - Release Date: 06/25/12 >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

AMEN to THAT! I hated history in high school because I had such a boring teacher for English and History, 2 periods a day for 2 years! (We all called him "hose nose", and he talked in a monotone!) But now that I am tracing my ancestors back into Germany into the 1600s from New Orleans, most of them (so far, at least 4 lines of them..................) it suddenly becomes so meaningful, doesn't it? And now, when I remember that I was in Munich in 1973 drinking beer with my cousin who was with the US State Department at the time, I wish I had known WHERE I really was......................Oh well, what is it they say, "Too soon old, too late smart..............?????" Touché! Kathy VP, Calaveras Genealogical Society San Andreas, Calaveras County, California -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of rohling1@comcast.net Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 9:21 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships - and more into modern times I have learned more about history since I started my genealogy research than I ever did in school. I think it is because I don't have to remember stuff, dates, etc. I enjoy it because I can see the history of my ancestors as they were seeing it. Helen -------------------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2180 / Virus Database: 2437/5093 - Release Date: 06/25/12

The Catholic church dispensation list for marriage is long, long and can be very complicated or very simple. The granting of dispensations on the other hand was often quite freely given and the petitions as simple as to keep property in a family. Affinity, which is the in-law relations, that I referred to was often connected to property ... thus my example chosen (Henry VIII was dispensed by the Pope to be forced to marry his sister-in-law Catherine --- and he didn't like her because she was older and spoke Spanish --- when he took over the Church of England and was king, he made affinity-marriages illegal). My great-grand parents who were married at St. Joseph's church in Thibodaux in 1864 had a dispensation to marry because he was not Catholic and maybe because she was getting along in years (age 27 - a virtual spinster)... another dispensation petition. However, their eldest daughter married her mother's first cousin, and no dispensation is shown on their record. Maybe they just didn't mention their consanguinity ... though both Melissa's mother and Arthur's mother (sister of Melissa's grandfather) were both surnamed DUGAS and you'd think the priest might have asked if they were related. As far as I know, race or inter-racial unions per se was not a reason to have to request dispensation by the Catholic church. Marriage as a contract is a civil matter... and even sacramental marriages (Catholic church) require a civil license to be legal. And yet another reason to request dispensation is to prevent a civil union ... chasing tails again. Whew!!! Just chatting away ... love when newbies join us and infuse new or allow us to recycle topics. Cate ;-} -----Original Message----- From: Shelia Salomone Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 8:45 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com ; 'Carolyn Long' Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships - and moreinto modern times And I forgot to ask if the Catholic Church viewed inter-racial unions as forbidden. I thought that was a State law? Really curious? This group sure does send out some very interesting conversations. I belong to many Roots-L lists and NONE of them come close to this one. Good members! I am glad I found this group! Thank you, Shelia KRAEMER SALOMONE -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Shelia Salomone Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 5:07 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com; 'Carolyn Long' Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships - and more into modern times I thought this was a Catholic rule for years and years? Like this I have in my notes: Dispensations were not limited to blood relationships. There were also spiritual relationships. When a person married, that person became a spiritual member of the new spouse's family. A sister-in-law was, in a spiritual sense, a sister. This applied to brothers, cousins, etc. If a man wished to marry his late wife's first cousin, spiritually he would be marrying his own first cousin. This would require a dispensation for a second degree of affinity. Dispensations for affinity relationships were governed by the same guidelines as blood relationships of consanguinity. So, maybe this belief was not originate from the Catholic religion? I am not Catholic but so much of my family were, so I have done some research. And I want to learn as much as I can so this article is interesting to me, Cate! Shelia KRAEMER SALOMONE -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cate Schweitzer-Toepfer Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 4:23 PM To: Carolyn Long; laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships - and more into modern times Happened to see a British mini series from 1997 called The Wingless Bird by Catherine Cookson. Begins shortly before WWI and ending in 1949, the story deals with classism, chauvinism, and many other "isms" of that time period with a strong female lead character. Well, since Cookson is an historical romance novelist many of the themes we assign to miscegenation and similar customs and laws applied here but with a twist. The one I found most interesting is that the heroine was unable to marry her brother-in-law after the death of her husband who died shortly after WWI ended. The reason being it was illegal in England at the time as the brother in law told her after she had fallen in love with him. I suspect, though Carolyn don't shame me for publishing this without my sources in place) that this law was the result of Henry VIII's trying to get an annulment from Catherine (his brother's widow) and the Pope refusing. So when the Church of England was politicized, marrying your brother or sister in law was prohibited under the law as incest (so Henry could marry someone else and assure his heirs would ascend the throne). The couple in the book/movie lived as husband and wife on property inherited by her from her first husband, raised their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren on the estate until they could legally marry in 1949 when the law was finally changed. I think that impediments to legal marriage have never prevented work arounds driven by love regardless of race, creed, color, national origin, or sexual orientation. Just depended on how much risk the participants chose to take. Cate ;-} -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Long Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 6:25 AM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships Friends, bear with me and forgive this lengthy post. This is a subject in which I'm intensely interested. Carolyn The idea of "plaçage" is certainly the prevailing myth about interracial couples. There is indeed evidence that this happened, and that some of these arrangements took place at the "quadroon balls," but this isn't the only way in which white men and free women of color formed relationships. My thinking on this has evolved over the years, in part because of my association with scholars like Greg Osborn and Barbara Trevigne, both Creoles of Color who are descended from interracial families. I wrote in my biography of Marie Laveau (published in 2006): "In contrast to the exploitative sexual relationships between masters and slave women, white men and free women of color formed liaisons that, although unlawful, often resembled true marriages. Legally, this was termed concubinage (which refers to any domestic partnership outside of marriage regardless of the race of the parties), but in common parlance the practice was known as plaçage, from the French verb placer--to place (under a man's protection). The woman was called a plaçée. In contravention of laws forbidding whites to make donations to persons of color, the man would provide a small cottage and support his plaçée and their children for life, even if he also established a white family. The house became the property of the woman and could be passed on to her heirs." But even then I found that Marie had first been legally married to a free man of color, and it was only after she was widowed that she formed a partnership with an unmarried white man, Christophe Glapion, that lasted for the rest of his life. Of her two daughters, Heloise had children with Pierre Crocker, a free man of color who was already married; Philomene became the partner of Alexandre Legendre, a white man, only after his wife had left him and took their children to New York--this relationship lasted until he died. So none of these were cases of "plaçage." By the time I was writing my new biography of Delphine Macarty Lalaurie (published in 2012) I was finding that none of the interracial Macarty families got together through the system of plaçage, and that the women acquired their property on their own, not from their white partners, For example: Delphine's father, Louis Barthelemy Macarty, and uncle, Jean Baptiste Macarty, had relationships with free women of color after their wives died. Other Macarty men (Jean Baptiste Barthelemy, Eugene, and Augustin) were never married but had relationships with free women of color. The most interesting of these is Eulalie Mandeville de Marigny (biracial half-sister of Bernard de Marigny), who met her white partner Eugene Macarty because she allowed him to cut timber on land that she owned in St.Bernard Parish. She became a very successful business woman--see the entry on her in KnowLa, the online Louisiana Encyclopedia. Last month I gave a talk at the Worcester Art Museum in conjunction with the exhibition Julien Hudson, Free Artist of Color, which originated at the Historic New Orleans Collection. There I said that "The stereotypical narrative of the slave-holding South assumes that any mulatto child was the result of rape or coercion of the enslaved mother by a brutal white master or overseer. In New Orleans, on the other hand, a different myth prevails, of a wealthy white planter who selects a beautiful young woman of color at a so-called quadroon ball, makes an arrangement with her female relatives, establishes her in a nice cottage in the city, and visits his concubine and their children on the sly while his wife remains isolated on their rural plantation. Some interracial couples probably did meet at these elegant dances that were held for the purpose of matchmaking. But, like white couples, they also met under a variety of other circumstances." Also see this link to a lecture given at Le Musee de FPC by the Tulane University historian Emily Clark: http://www.tribunetalk.com/?features=le-musee-de-f-p-c-presents-dr-emily-cla rk ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I need help. Trying to find out what cemetery Thomas Joseph Spear (died Feb. 1937) is buried in. He is not in St. Louis #1 with his brothers and sister. If someone can find his obit and send to me it may tell me something. Appreciate any help. Merle in Texas -------------------------------------------------- From: "Kathy Cochran" <kathys_old_house@goldrush.com> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 9:00 PM To: <laorlean@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] If you need help... Late night findings > Yes, I have found that it really helps to clearly articulate exactly what > it > is that you want to find. That way, someone may or will be able to answer > you! > > Cheers, Kathy Cochran > > -----Original Message----- > From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Linda Stokesbury Brennan > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 2:40 PM > To: laorlean@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] If you need help... Late night findings > > I've found that I have to put into words what it is I need -- and > amazingly, > occasionally I find what I'm looking for. > > My most wonderful example came when I was needing to find evidence that a > family with a different spelling of the surname was actually part of my > family. Many of my co-researchers disagreed, and said they thought it was > too different to be the same family. At that point, I thought to myself, > "I > need to find a rosetta stone for this." > > It's hard to believe but within a couple of weeks, a new d-base was put > online by the Library of Virginia--a listing of all the early chancery > suits > in Shenandoah County, VA. > > To my astonishment, I found a case which involved my ancestor, and it > contained papers that spelled the surname in the exact two spellings I was > trying to prove were the same family. It used the same two spellings to > refer to my own ancestor. > > How cool is that? I really could never have imagined such a wonderful > solution. I felt like I had won the lottery! > > So, from then on, I make it a point to define specifically what it is I > need > to obtain in my family history search. > > > Kind Regards, > Linda > > Linda Stokesbury Brennan, Lansing, MI & Natchitoches, LA Stokesbury DNA > Project Administrator > > Researching: STOKESBURY (STUCHBURY), LAMARE, BABIN, DUNNING, OLINGER, ORR, > PAINTER/BAINTER, BAUGHMAN, CLARK, HENINGER http://www.Stokesbury.org, > http://www.artistsuccesskit.com > http://www.familytreedna.com/public/stokesburyDNAproject > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2180 / Virus Database: 2437/5092 - Release Date: 06/25/12 > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you, Cate. I have a lot of notes on this stuff but it is long and complicated so I ALWAYS have to go back to them and search it out. And these affinities were measured in degrees? Am I correct? I remember when I was young that my Aunt was marrying for the second time. She was widowed at a young age. But, she was not allowed to marry in the Catholic Church because the man she was marrying had been divorced from his first wife. I always thought that was so odd! But, after starting my genealogy and doing all the research on Catholic marriages, I see a lot of these are still in affect even in the 1970's. Not sure about now. In a conversation I had about this I was told that granting dispensations also involved money donations to the church? Not sure how true this is but I would like to know what others might know about this subject. My notes just have this as a possibility because someone once told me that. I found no references for it. I appreciate the information everyone is providing me. Thank you so much! Can you believe I hated history when I was in school but now I love it!!!! Of course that was many many many moons ago! Shelia KRAEMER SALOMONE -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cate Schweitzer-Toepfer Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 7:52 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships - and more into modern times The Catholic church dispensation list for marriage is long, long and can be very complicated or very simple. The granting of dispensations on the other hand was often quite freely given and the petitions as simple as to keep property in a family. Affinity, which is the in-law relations, that I referred to was often connected to property ... thus my example chosen (Henry VIII was dispensed by the Pope to be forced to marry his sister-in-law Catherine --- and he didn't like her because she was older and spoke Spanish --- when he took over the Church of England and was king, he made affinity-marriages illegal). My great-grand parents who were married at St. Joseph's church in Thibodaux in 1864 had a dispensation to marry because he was not Catholic and maybe because she was getting along in years (age 27 - a virtual spinster)... another dispensation petition. However, their eldest daughter married her mother's first cousin, and no dispensation is shown on their record. Maybe they just didn't mention their consanguinity ... though both Melissa's mother and Arthur's mother (sister of Melissa's grandfather) were both surnamed DUGAS and you'd think the priest might have asked if they were related. As far as I know, race or inter-racial unions per se was not a reason to have to request dispensation by the Catholic church. Marriage as a contract is a civil matter... and even sacramental marriages (Catholic church) require a civil license to be legal. And yet another reason to request dispensation is to prevent a civil union ... chasing tails again. Whew!!! Just chatting away ... love when newbies join us and infuse new or allow us to recycle topics. Cate ;-} -----Original Message----- From: Shelia Salomone Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 8:45 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com ; 'Carolyn Long' Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships - and moreinto modern times And I forgot to ask if the Catholic Church viewed inter-racial unions as forbidden. I thought that was a State law? Really curious? This group sure does send out some very interesting conversations. I belong to many Roots-L lists and NONE of them come close to this one. Good members! I am glad I found this group! Thank you, Shelia KRAEMER SALOMONE -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Shelia Salomone Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 5:07 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com; 'Carolyn Long' Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships - and more into modern times I thought this was a Catholic rule for years and years? Like this I have in my notes: Dispensations were not limited to blood relationships. There were also spiritual relationships. When a person married, that person became a spiritual member of the new spouse's family. A sister-in-law was, in a spiritual sense, a sister. This applied to brothers, cousins, etc. If a man wished to marry his late wife's first cousin, spiritually he would be marrying his own first cousin. This would require a dispensation for a second degree of affinity. Dispensations for affinity relationships were governed by the same guidelines as blood relationships of consanguinity. So, maybe this belief was not originate from the Catholic religion? I am not Catholic but so much of my family were, so I have done some research. And I want to learn as much as I can so this article is interesting to me, Cate! Shelia KRAEMER SALOMONE -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cate Schweitzer-Toepfer Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 4:23 PM To: Carolyn Long; laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships - and more into modern times Happened to see a British mini series from 1997 called The Wingless Bird by Catherine Cookson. Begins shortly before WWI and ending in 1949, the story deals with classism, chauvinism, and many other "isms" of that time period with a strong female lead character. Well, since Cookson is an historical romance novelist many of the themes we assign to miscegenation and similar customs and laws applied here but with a twist. The one I found most interesting is that the heroine was unable to marry her brother-in-law after the death of her husband who died shortly after WWI ended. The reason being it was illegal in England at the time as the brother in law told her after she had fallen in love with him. I suspect, though Carolyn don't shame me for publishing this without my sources in place) that this law was the result of Henry VIII's trying to get an annulment from Catherine (his brother's widow) and the Pope refusing. So when the Church of England was politicized, marrying your brother or sister in law was prohibited under the law as incest (so Henry could marry someone else and assure his heirs would ascend the throne). The couple in the book/movie lived as husband and wife on property inherited by her from her first husband, raised their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren on the estate until they could legally marry in 1949 when the law was finally changed. I think that impediments to legal marriage have never prevented work arounds driven by love regardless of race, creed, color, national origin, or sexual orientation. Just depended on how much risk the participants chose to take. Cate ;-} -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Long Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 6:25 AM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] interracial relationships Friends, bear with me and forgive this lengthy post. This is a subject in which I'm intensely interested. Carolyn The idea of "plaçage" is certainly the prevailing myth about interracial couples. There is indeed evidence that this happened, and that some of these arrangements took place at the "quadroon balls," but this isn't the only way in which white men and free women of color formed relationships. My thinking on this has evolved over the years, in part because of my association with scholars like Greg Osborn and Barbara Trevigne, both Creoles of Color who are descended from interracial families. I wrote in my biography of Marie Laveau (published in 2006): "In contrast to the exploitative sexual relationships between masters and slave women, white men and free women of color formed liaisons that, although unlawful, often resembled true marriages. Legally, this was termed concubinage (which refers to any domestic partnership outside of marriage regardless of the race of the parties), but in common parlance the practice was known as plaçage, from the French verb placer--to place (under a man's protection). The woman was called a plaçée. In contravention of laws forbidding whites to make donations to persons of color, the man would provide a small cottage and support his plaçée and their children for life, even if he also established a white family. The house became the property of the woman and could be passed on to her heirs." But even then I found that Marie had first been legally married to a free man of color, and it was only after she was widowed that she formed a partnership with an unmarried white man, Christophe Glapion, that lasted for the rest of his life. Of her two daughters, Heloise had children with Pierre Crocker, a free man of color who was already married; Philomene became the partner of Alexandre Legendre, a white man, only after his wife had left him and took their children to New York--this relationship lasted until he died. So none of these were cases of "plaçage." By the time I was writing my new biography of Delphine Macarty Lalaurie (published in 2012) I was finding that none of the interracial Macarty families got together through the system of plaçage, and that the women acquired their property on their own, not from their white partners, For example: Delphine's father, Louis Barthelemy Macarty, and uncle, Jean Baptiste Macarty, had relationships with free women of color after their wives died. Other Macarty men (Jean Baptiste Barthelemy, Eugene, and Augustin) were never married but had relationships with free women of color. The most interesting of these is Eulalie Mandeville de Marigny (biracial half-sister of Bernard de Marigny), who met her white partner Eugene Macarty because she allowed him to cut timber on land that she owned in St.Bernard Parish. She became a very successful business woman--see the entry on her in KnowLa, the online Louisiana Encyclopedia. Last month I gave a talk at the Worcester Art Museum in conjunction with the exhibition Julien Hudson, Free Artist of Color, which originated at the Historic New Orleans Collection. There I said that "The stereotypical narrative of the slave-holding South assumes that any mulatto child was the result of rape or coercion of the enslaved mother by a brutal white master or overseer. In New Orleans, on the other hand, a different myth prevails, of a wealthy white planter who selects a beautiful young woman of color at a so-called quadroon ball, makes an arrangement with her female relatives, establishes her in a nice cottage in the city, and visits his concubine and their children on the sly while his wife remains isolated on their rural plantation. Some interracial couples probably did meet at these elegant dances that were held for the purpose of matchmaking. But, like white couples, they also met under a variety of other circumstances." Also see this link to a lecture given at Le Musee de FPC by the Tulane University historian Emily Clark: http://www.tribunetalk.com/?features=le-musee-de-f-p-c-presents-dr-emily-cla rk ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

He was listed as being buried in St. Louis number 3 on Esplanade Avenue. Hope this helps you. --- On Mon, 6/25/12, Merle Ann Farrington <celticmick@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > From: Merle Ann Farrington <celticmick@sbcglobal.net> > Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] If you need help... La te night findings > To: laorlean@rootsweb.com > Date: Monday, June 25, 2012, 9:39 PM > I need help.  Trying to find out > what cemetery Thomas Joseph Spear (died > Feb. 1937) is buried in.  He is not in St. Louis #1 > with his brothers and > sister.  If someone can find his obit and send to me it > may tell me > something. > > Appreciate any help. > > Merle in Texas > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Kathy Cochran" <kathys_old_house@goldrush.com> > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 9:00 PM > To: <laorlean@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] If you need help... Late night > findings > > > Yes, I have found that it really helps to clearly > articulate exactly what > > it > > is that you want to find.  That way, someone may > or will be able to answer > > you! > > > > Cheers,  Kathy Cochran > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] > > On Behalf Of Linda Stokesbury Brennan > > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 2:40 PM > > To: laorlean@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] If you need help... Late night > findings > > > > I've found that I have to put into words what it is I > need -- and > > amazingly, > > occasionally I find what I'm looking for. > > > > My most wonderful example came when I was needing to > find evidence that a > > family with a different spelling of the surname was > actually part of my > > family. Many of my co-researchers disagreed, and said > they thought it was > > too different to be the same family. At that point, I > thought to myself, > > "I > > need to find a rosetta stone for this." > > > > It's hard to believe but within a couple of weeks, a > new d-base was put > > online by the Library of Virginia--a listing of all the > early chancery > > suits > > in Shenandoah County, VA. > > > > To my astonishment, I found a case which involved my > ancestor, and it > > contained papers that spelled the surname in the exact > two spellings I was > > trying to prove were the same family. It used the same > two spellings to > > refer to my own ancestor. > > > > How cool is that? I really could never have imagined > such a wonderful > > solution. I felt like I had won the lottery! > > > > So, from then on, I make it a point to define > specifically what it is I > > need > > to obtain in my family history search. > > > > > > Kind Regards, > > Linda > > > > Linda Stokesbury Brennan, Lansing, MI & > Natchitoches, LA Stokesbury DNA > > Project Administrator > > > > Researching: STOKESBURY (STUCHBURY), LAMARE, BABIN, > DUNNING, OLINGER, ORR, > > PAINTER/BAINTER, BAUGHMAN, CLARK, HENINGER http://www.Stokesbury.org, > > http://www.artistsuccesskit.com > > http://www.familytreedna.com/public/stokesburyDNAproject > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes > > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2012.0.2180 / Virus Database: 2437/5092 - > Release Date: 06/25/12 > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message >

"Lab" refers to laborer. Many people would do several jobs (seasonal or otherwise) as the demand existed. -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jcntsmith@aol.com Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 10:47 AM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: [LAORLEAN] Mocavo Has anyone any experience with Mocavo? Also in city directories after some names they have "lab", what does it mean? I probably should know but I guess I'm having a senior moment. Thanks in advance for the help. NT jcntsmith@aol.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'll weigh in on this "psychic" genealogy issue. Whenever I'm stuck, I do some indexing for the FamilySeach.org and perform some random acts of genealogical kindness. When I return to my own research I am amazed at the things that I find. https://www.familysearch.org/volunteer/indexing -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kathy Cochran Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 7:01 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] If you need help... Late night findings Yes, I have found that it really helps to clearly articulate exactly what it is that you want to find. That way, someone may or will be able to answer you! Cheers, Kathy Cochran -----Original Message----- From: laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:laorlean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Linda Stokesbury Brennan Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 2:40 PM To: laorlean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAORLEAN] If you need help... Late night findings I've found that I have to put into words what it is I need -- and amazingly, occasionally I find what I'm looking for. My most wonderful example came when I was needing to find evidence that a family with a different spelling of the surname was actually part of my family. Many of my co-researchers disagreed, and said they thought it was too different to be the same family. At that point, I thought to myself, "I need to find a rosetta stone for this." It's hard to believe but within a couple of weeks, a new d-base was put online by the Library of Virginia--a listing of all the early chancery suits in Shenandoah County, VA. To my astonishment, I found a case which involved my ancestor, and it contained papers that spelled the surname in the exact two spellings I was trying to prove were the same family. It used the same two spellings to refer to my own ancestor. How cool is that? I really could never have imagined such a wonderful solution. I felt like I had won the lottery! So, from then on, I make it a point to define specifically what it is I need to obtain in my family history search. Kind Regards, Linda Linda Stokesbury Brennan, Lansing, MI & Natchitoches, LA Stokesbury DNA Project Administrator Researching: STOKESBURY (STUCHBURY), LAMARE, BABIN, DUNNING, OLINGER, ORR, PAINTER/BAINTER, BAUGHMAN, CLARK, HENINGER http://www.Stokesbury.org, http://www.artistsuccesskit.com http://www.familytreedna.com/public/stokesburyDNAproject ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2180 / Virus Database: 2437/5092 - Release Date: 06/25/12 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LAORLEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message