I have an 1803 marriage found ancestry records . " Lancs C of E marriages and Banns 1754-1936 " The marriage was Baptist Old Chapel , Goodshaw . I cannot find any further records for Goodshaw . Any ideas please !!! My James PIERCE mar Betty GUYE The surname has been transcribed as James PEERS and all the children have the surname PIERCE , Betty has dropped the 'E' in her surname . The actual marriage record has the surname as James PEARS and James has signed PIERS . I always thought Haslingden as the place they married . Any suggestion as to where to look . I am considering a full DNA test . There is one being undertaken by the one name PIERCE rootsweb . Shirley

Shirley, Goodshaw Chapel is in the care of English Heritage and there is a web site about its history at http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/goodshaw-chapel/history/. There is also a description at the LFHHS site at : http://www.rossendale-fhhs.org.uk/files/rawtenstall_churches/church_006.html . This suggests that the "Old" Chapel was replaced in the 1860s. And, as noted in an earlier posting on this subject ( https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/lancsgen@rootsweb.com/thread/XQMBCDQNJ4ZU6MWDIAFIRYYKNB2IRWWK/ ) a marriage in 1803 at Goodshaw Chapel would not have been a legal marriage, there would have also been a "proper" C of E marriage, and this took place in nearby Haslingden : From LOPC : Marriage: 29 Aug 1803 St James, Haslingden, Lancashire, England James Peers - this Chapelry Betty Gaye - (X), this Chapelry     Witness: Henry Rothwell; Thos. Wilding     Married by Banns by: Jas. Barnes, Curate     Register: Marriages 1794 - 1812, Page 102, Entry 322     Source: Original Parish Register at Lancashire Archives Hence the confusion. BobC On 30/04/2018 04:42, Shirley Brown wrote: > I have an 1803 marriage found ancestry records . > " Lancs C of E marriages and Banns 1754-1936 " > The marriage was Baptist Old Chapel , Goodshaw . > I cannot find any further records for Goodshaw . > Any ideas please !!! > > My James PIERCE mar Betty GUYE > The surname has been transcribed as James PEERS and all the children have > the surname PIERCE , Betty has dropped the 'E' in her surname . The > actual marriage record has the surname as James PEARS and James has signed > PIERS . > I always thought Haslingden as the place they married . > Any suggestion as to where to look . I am considering a full DNA test . > There is one being undertaken by the one name PIERCE rootsweb . > > Shirley > > _______________________________________________ > > > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > > GENUKI - a virtual reference library of genealogical information. http://www.genuki.org.uk/ > > > Contact the list administrator at LancsGen-admin@rootsweb.com > > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/lancsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Archives: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/lancsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community > > -- Bob C http://www.bccy.org.uk and http://extra.bccy.org.uk

re GoodshawHi Shirley-have you looked at the Lancashire online Parish Clerk site?  www.lan-opc.org.uk    try searching Rossendale, there are some records for Goodshaw Fold Chapel and others, worth a look to see if any familiar names in the area. HTH,Anne On Monday, 30 April 2018, 13:46, Shirley Brown <essanjay37@gmail.com> wrote: I have an 1803 marriage found  ancestry records . "  Lancs  C of E  marriages  and Banns 1754-1936 " The marriage was Baptist Old Chapel , Goodshaw . I cannot find any further records for Goodshaw . Any ideas please !!! My James PIERCE mar Betty GUYE The surname has been transcribed as James PEERS and all the children have the surname PIERCE ,  Betty has dropped the 'E' in her surname . The actual marriage record has the surname as James PEARS and James has signed PIERS . I always thought Haslingden as the place they married . Any suggestion as to where to look . I am considering a full  DNA test  . There is one being undertaken by the one name PIERCE rootsweb . Shirley _______________________________________________ :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: GENUKI - a virtual reference library of genealogical information.  http://www.genuki.org.uk/ Contact the list administrator  at LancsGen-admin@rootsweb.com :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/lancsgen@rootsweb.com/ Archives: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/lancsgen@rootsweb.com/ Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Hi, Shirley, You ask about Goodshaw Chapel. The first place to look when looking for a church or chapel in Lancashire is the Genuki Church Database (http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/churchdb/ ) This shows four churches in Goodshaw, two of them are Baptist Chapels and were founded after 1820. If the chapels had been open at the date of interest, then it would have been worth looking at the Lancashire On-Line Parish Clerk (LanOPC) site (http://www.lan-opc.org.uk ) to see if the registers have been transcribed. The usual place of safety for church records in modern Lancashire is the Lancashire Archives in Preston. Its catalogue is online at - http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/libraries-and-archives/archives-and-record-office/our-collections/church-registers-guide/ This has some Goodshaw Baptist records (originals, not transcripts) - Goodshaw Baptist Chapel – earliest 1836 Baptisms and Burials, Marriages 1862 This does not look promising for you BUT if you look at the LanOPC site, click on Search on the menu on the left hand side, you can search all the transcripts available for James PEERS married 1803 +/- 5 years and this will produce three matches, one of which is - Marriage: 29 Aug 1803 St James, Haslingden, Lancashire, England James Peers - this Chapelry Betty Gaye - (X), this Chapelry Witness: Henry Rothwell; Thos. Wilding Married by Banns by: Jas. Barnes, Curate Register: Marriages 1794 - 1812, Page 102, Entry 322 Source: Original Parish Register at Lancashire Archives If you look at the Genuki Church Database, there is an Anglican church in Goodshaw. Following the links you will see that there are no marriage registers listed for this church in the Manchester Archives (http://www.manchester.gov.uk/directory/100/church_registers ) until 1838. This is almost certainly because, following Hardwicke's Act of 1754 St Mary, Goodshaw was not licensed for marriages. Any marriages from this area between 1754 and 1837, would take place in the Parish Church at Whalley or at a licensed Chapel of Ease – in this case it appears to be St James, Haslingden. Hope this helps, Jim Lancaster (Bury, lancs.) On 30/04/2018 04:42, Shirley Brown wrote: > I have an 1803 marriage found ancestry records . > " Lancs C of E marriages and Banns 1754-1936 " > The marriage was Baptist Old Chapel , Goodshaw . > I cannot find any further records for Goodshaw . > Any ideas please !!!

Thank you for all the interesting information regarding Goodshaw . I am still confused in that there can be a marriage in a baptist church but not legal . But guess they were the rules of the time . Do we blame Henry grgr Just hoping to pick up other family for James PEERS/PIERS/PEARS when should be PIERCE . All to do with pronunciation I suppose . I have that with a family who moved from Scotland to Lancs where the surname went from BIGGS to BEGGS in Preston , Lancs .. The GUYE/GUY family I have been able to go back a further 2 generations. So hoping when I hear from the owner of the PIERCE site gets back to me then will have a DNA test which should show something !!! I check the LancsOPC site often for all my many families but there was nothing at all on for Goodshaw . A pierce of information I had missed for many years . Kind regards to all with your replies Shirley NZ On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 3:38 AM, jim lancaster <lancaster.jim@zen.co.uk> wrote: > Hi, Shirley, > > You ask about Goodshaw Chapel. > > The first place to look when looking for a church or chapel in Lancashire > is the Genuki Church Database (http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/churchdb/ ) > This shows four churches in Goodshaw, two of them are Baptist Chapels and > were founded after 1820. If the chapels had been open at the date of > interest, then it would have been worth looking at the Lancashire On-Line > Parish Clerk (LanOPC) site (http://www.lan-opc.org.uk ) to see if the > registers have been transcribed. The usual place of safety for church > records in modern Lancashire is the Lancashire Archives in Preston. Its > catalogue is online at - http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/l > ibraries-and-archives/archives-and-record-office/our- > collections/church-registers-guide/ This has some Goodshaw Baptist > records (originals, not transcripts) - > > Goodshaw Baptist Chapel – earliest 1836 Baptisms and Burials, Marriages > 1862 > > This does not look promising for you BUT if you look at the LanOPC site, > click on Search on the menu on the left hand side, you can search all the > transcripts available for James PEERS married 1803 +/- 5 years and this > will produce three matches, one of which is - > > Marriage: 29 Aug 1803 St James, Haslingden, Lancashire, England > James Peers - this Chapelry > Betty Gaye - (X), this Chapelry > Witness: Henry Rothwell; Thos. Wilding > Married by Banns by: Jas. Barnes, Curate > Register: Marriages 1794 - 1812, Page 102, Entry 322 > Source: Original Parish Register at Lancashire Archives > > If you look at the Genuki Church Database, there is an Anglican church in > Goodshaw. Following the links you will see that there are no marriage > registers listed for this church in the Manchester Archives ( > http://www.manchester.gov.uk/directory/100/church_registers ) until > 1838. This is almost certainly because, following Hardwicke's Act of 1754 > St Mary, Goodshaw was not licensed for marriages. Any marriages from this > area between 1754 and 1837, would take place in the Parish Church at > Whalley or at a licensed Chapel of Ease – in this case it appears to be St > James, Haslingden. > > Hope this helps, > > Jim Lancaster (Bury, lancs.) > > On 30/04/2018 04:42, Shirley Brown wrote: > >> I have an 1803 marriage found ancestry records . >> " Lancs C of E marriages and Banns 1754-1936 " >> The marriage was Baptist Old Chapel , Goodshaw . >> I cannot find any further records for Goodshaw . >> Any ideas please !!! >> > > _______________________________________________ > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > > GENUKI - a virtual reference library of genealogical information. > http://www.genuki.org.uk/ > > Contact the list administrator at LancsGen-admin@rootsweb.com > > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/lancsgen > @rootsweb.com/ > > Archives: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/lancsgen > @rootsweb.com/ > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community > >

Hi, Shirley, I am still confused in that there can be a marriage in a baptist church but not legal . But guess they were the rules of the time . Do we blame Henry grgr [endquote] This all depends on our understanding of the meaning of 'marriage'. In mediaeval times, betrothal (the agreement to marry) was very important and the church ceremony was seen as sanctifying that agreement. Our concern about informed agreement is not new. Around 1700 there was concern about marriages taking place outside the 'system', for instance, under age marriages without the consent of parents. These marriages often took place away from the family parish so as to avoid notice and there was an 'industry' of clandestine marriages in some places. As a result, in 1754, Parliament passed Hardwicke's Act “for the better prevention of clandestine marriages”. This required all marriages to be solemnised in the parish church of the Established religion where one of the couple lived and it had to be performed by an authorised minister, and also laid down other regulations. This Act applied to all with only two small exceptions – Quakers and Jews. The exceptions were because these two groups had a different understanding of Church, were closely knit, and kept good records. Everyone else had to have the Anglican ceremony. Christians outside the Anglican community could have their own religious ceremony as well is they so chose, but it was not recognised in law. The legal aspects were relevant if inheritance was involved, particularly land – if you were not married in the Anglican church, your children could not inherit – or, at the other end of the social scale, if you needed parish relief, you may have had difficulty getting help. The use of two ceremonies was a way Non-Conformists of all kinds met the requirements of the law and of their religious beliefs. By the early 1800s, there was concern that non-Anglicans were using the Anglican service less frequently. This, and the development of industrial communities away from the traditional Parish churches, ultimately led to the civil registration of marriages in 1837. This allowed those outside the Anglican community to have their own religious service, provided the Registrar was present, and if they did not want a religious ceremony, they could be married in the Registrar's Office. This means that Henry is NOT to blame! Hope this helps, Jim Lancaster (Bury, Lancs.) On 30/04/2018 20:58, Shirley Brown wrote: > Thank you for all the interesting information regarding Goodshaw .

Shirley, In my earlier reply I may have given the impression that a Baptist marriage was not "legal".  That wasn't my intent, simply that it needed a C of E marriage to be recognised by the relevant authorities as otherwise the children would be regarded as illegitimate under Ecclesiastical law which governed matters of inheritance.    I don't know the rites and ceremonies of the Baptist Church but it is possible that the record you have located for Goodshaw Chapel was not the record of a marriage which took place there but a record showing that two members of the Church had been married (elsewhere) and that they were regarded by the Baptists as being Husband and Wife. You say in your original posting that "Theactual marriage record has the surname as James PEARS and James has signedPIERS ." The idea that James would have signed a marriage record in 1803 seems a little odd, even if he had been able to write his name most records back then did not have any provision for those involved to sign. It was only with the advent of Civil Registrations that signing the records was introduced as the norm. Have you seen an image of the record you refer to or are you relying on a transcript for this statement ? I'm not sure what you think we aught to blame Henry for, nor am I sure which Henry you wanted to blame - it was James who married Betty after all ! .Jim has fully explained the situation regarding the need for two services where non-conformists were involved and how this came about. BobC On 30/04/2018 20:58, Shirley Brown wrote: > Thank you for all the interesting information regarding Goodshaw . I am > still confused in that there can be a marriage in a baptist church but not > legal . But guess they were the rules of the time . Do we blame Henry > grgr Just hoping to pick up other family for James > PEERS/PIERS/PEARS when should be PIERCE . All to do with pronunciation I > suppose . I have that with a family who moved from Scotland to Lancs where > the surname went from BIGGS to BEGGS in Preston , Lancs .. The GUYE/GUY > family I have been able to go back a further 2 generations. > So hoping when I hear from the owner of the PIERCE site gets back to me > then will have a DNA test which should show something !!! I check the > LancsOPC site often for all my many families but there was nothing at all > on for Goodshaw . A pierce of information I had missed for many years . > > Kind regards to all with your replies > > Shirley NZ > > -- Bob C http://www.bccy.org.uk and http://extra.bccy.org.uk

Hm. Time to take a look at the register images on Ancestry. Which seem to deepen the mystery! The Ancestry image is from "Lancashire, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1936" and it's indexed by Name: James Peers Gender: Male Event Type: Marriage Event Date: 29 Aug 1803 Parish: Haslingden, Lancashire, England and Name: Betty Guye Gender: Female Event Type: Marriage Event Date: 29 Aug 1803 Parish: Haslingden, Lancashire, England The image is there, quite clear, and it states that they were married "in this chapel" (Haslingden chapel of ease I presume). (Yes, James does sign - the marriage format from 1754 on has spaces for the signatures (or marks) of bride, groom and witnesses). There is, at this point, **no** mention of Goodshaw. If, however, you go to image 1 on the film of 143, at the very top of the page, over the first marriage, it says "At Goodshaw Chapel, in the Chapelry of Haslingden". It is completely unclear to me whether the note is meant to apply to the first marriage (John Burton & Ann Cropper 20 Oct 1794) or the full page. At the very top of page 3, it says "At ye par: chapel of Haslingden". And to make it clear which register this is, there is a stamped record office id, "PR 3016 1/13" - which is Haslingden St. James according to my PDF of the LRO Yellow Pages. Now, I haven't looked at more than a handful of those pages but Goodshaw is there on that first page and not on any others that I've seen. **Assuming** that Goodshaw means the Baptist chapel, that page 1 annotation is odd in the extreme as no marriage done by a CofE minister should take place outside the CofE church / chapel. Whether Goodshaw is a later annotation, an incorrect annotation or the name was used by more than one place I have no idea. But there is no reason to suppose that James and Betty's marriage took place anywhere other than Haslingden, St. James. Adrian

Usual trick - hit "Send" and think of something else. As Jim pointed out, there was another Goodshaw Chapel - http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Goodshaw/StMaryandAllSaints - Church of England. GENUKI alleges it was founded before 1542. The Lancs RO Yellow Pages show just one marriage there in 1699, recorded in the BTs, and no other marriages (this was how I found there was another Goodshaw to the Baptist). Otherwise baptisms and burials (only) are in the PRs from 1732 onwards. So maybe one or more of the marriages recorded at the start of the Haslingden, St. James marriage register, took place at the chapel of St Mary & All Saints in Goodshaw but were recorded in the Haslingden book. Maybe they hadn't painted Haslingden up in time! Adrian

Now I see - the Church where they were married is the one now known as St Mary and All Saints, Goodshaw.   It is located at Goldshaw Booth in a Hamlet known as GOODSHAW CHAPEL (perhaps after the baptist Chapel that was also located there, but possibly because the C of E Church was known as a Chapel in earlier times..   This becomes clear after looking at old O.S. maps of the area where the church is shown as "Goodshaw Per."(perpetual) "Curacy".    These maps date back only to the 1840s So they may have married at Goodshaw Chapel (the Hamlet) depending on whether the note at the top of page 3 of the image referred to the whole page or just to one entry; but not at the Baptist Chapel there but at the C of E Church (which was probably technically a Chapel of Ease) BobC On 02/05/2018 12:02, Adrian Bruce wrote: > Usual trick - hit "Send" and think of something else. > > As Jim pointed out, there was another Goodshaw Chapel - > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Goodshaw/StMaryandAllSaints - Church > of England. GENUKI alleges it was founded before 1542. The Lancs RO Yellow > Pages show just one marriage there in 1699, recorded in the BTs, and no > other marriages (this was how I found there was another Goodshaw to the > Baptist). Otherwise baptisms and burials (only) are in the PRs from 1732 > onwards. > > So maybe one or more of the marriages recorded at the start of the > Haslingden, St. James marriage register, took place at the chapel of St > Mary & All Saints in Goodshaw but were recorded in the Haslingden book. > Maybe they hadn't painted Haslingden up in time! > > > Adrian > > -- Bob C http://www.bccy.org.uk and http://extra.bccy.org.uk