I recall many years ago being unable to find my grandmother's marriage and eventually discovering she had "had" to get married - she who was somewhat religion and frowned upon such things! But a more recently found puzzle, further back in time, is online transcripts of baptisms of a children of parents who married in one church on 24 November 1872 and the baptism of their child in another church on the same day with different residential addresses although these addresses occur on other documents and later children were baptised at the same baptismal church. I'm still wondering if this is correct and I guess I need to try and send for copies of the original baptismal records [I have the marriage certificate]. Carol

The histories that you have described are wonderful and it what makes family history so interesting. It isn't just about dates but finding out how our ancestors lived and sometimes simply survived. When you see child after child dying in some families you wonder how they coped. Although infant mortality was high each one was a tragedy. I thank them all for their lives as it means I am here today! Linda in soggy Dorset. Lancs interests: WRIGHT ELY BARRON NAYLOR WHITTLE MERCER GERRARD

Hello everyone, Whilst there was no record update today on the OPC website, there was a message to say... "13 February 2014 Today is the tenth anniversary of the Lancashire Online Parish Clerks website! A big thank you to all the volunteers who have helped us to reach this milestone. We are also very appreciative of all the help, support and encouragement we have received." Congratulations and my personal thanks to everyone involved on the project who have given their time freely to co-ordinate, transcribe and provide access to the vast array of records held on the website. I don't know where my tree would be without you! Regards, Sally

That's what I told my mother, that she probably remembered what happened to her every time a man came to her bedroom!!! LOL On 13 February 2014 14:29, Stephen Thwaite <thwaite@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > > > ..........clearly she had learned from her own experience, and was just > passing on the lessons...........!! > > > Regards > Stephen Thwaite > NZ > > //// > > > ________________________________ > From: Vern Prescott <vprescott@gmail.com> > To: lancsgen@rootsweb.com > Sent: Friday, 14 February 2014 5:30 AM > Subject: Re: [LAN] Family history > > > ....[snip].... > Granny saw him and she was not amused!! > She gave Dad a stern lecture about how he was not to set foot in the > bedroom of an unmarried woman. This was probably about 1927. > > In 1971, the last of granny's children died, and it was then discovered > that granny had never married! She had given birth to 6 children, all > illegitimate!!! Mother was quite surprised, in light of the lecture that > Dad had received. > > > On 13 February 2014 09:48, Elizabeth Evers > > > Greetings from Alabama... > .....[snip].... > Turns out this instead of keeping knickers up LOL my grandfather couldn't > keep his pants zipped. > > > > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > > Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No > fees! > > The list's administrator can be contacted at LancsGen-admin@rootsweb.com > > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LANCSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Just another little story. My Grandmother was a very strong Catholic and didn't recognize my sister, my brother or myself because our mum and dad weren't married. I'll not go into the whys and wherefores of their stories but I would like to tell you about my search for my grandmother. I left her family until the last as she was a SMITH. Before I could find her, I had to get her marriage certificate to give me her fathers' name which tuned out to be John SMITH (I kid you not) I began to look for her marriage to grand dad just 9 months before my father was born (as you do) He was the eldest. I searched and searched with no luck and so I decided to start with my fathers birth and work backwards from there. I found them married just 6 days before dad was born! The reason for the delay was the fact that my grand dad wasn't 16 years old until then. Grandma was 2 years older. He was a protestant and she was a catholic and I have no idea how they ever came to talk to each other let alone do anything else. They had sex outside of marriage and grand dad wasn't old enough so it was illegal. When they had their Golden Wedding, there was a piece in the paper in Wigan where they lived, together with a photograph. My eldest half sister had a copy of the paper but it had got tatty. She asked me if I could get a copy from the History Shop in Wigan. I went and searched myself and then got help from the staff as I couldn't find the paper. Neither could they. I did look a few times after that but to no avail. I then found it while looking for something else, 12 months earlier than it should have been. Obviously they didn't want anyone to know that they 'had to get married'. Sad really. Pauline in Darwen

Hi Pauline, I can see a future Hollywood script in this story  :)) Cheers  Mike Morris  Toronto Canada >________________________________ > From: "phodkinson@aol.com" <phodkinson@aol.com> >To: lancsgen@rootsweb.com >Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 6:47:31 AM >Subject: Re: [LAN] family history >Just another little story. >My Grandmother was a very strong Catholic and didn't recognize my sister, my brother or myself because our mum and dad weren't married. >I'll not go into the whys and wherefores of their stories but I would like to tell you about my search for my grandmother.  I left her family until the last as she was a SMITH.  Before I could find her, I had to get her marriage certificate to give me her fathers' name which tuned out to be John SMITH (I kid you not) <snip> > >

Hi John, That's an interesting piece of family history and something you could not find in Ancestry or Find My Past. That's why people should make the effort to stay in touch with our family history group (Rootsweb). I for one have met many lovely people over the years. Love the stories and how they are so willing to help each other or new comers. I learnt a lot of family history research tips moves through the kindness and patience of our list members.  By the way, I do enjoy looking up old locations in the maps I have. It gives me a great pleasure when I can be of help. See what goes around comes around.................... I think that's how they say it :)) Hopefully our favourite List will now start picking up steam. All my best  Mike Morris  Toronto Canada Ex Manchester, England.  >________________________________ > From: John Lynch <john_the_genes@btinternet.com> >To: lancsgen@rootsweb.com >Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:44:43 PM >Subject: Re: [LAN] Family history > > >Absolutely. We should be looking for the facts--not judging people. They did >what they did. Just like we do. And sometimes there was a gap between what >they said and what they did. Just like there is with us. I did find myself >smiling, though, when politicians exhorted us to return to Victorian values. >Er...which Victorian values, exactly, Mr Major? The Queen's? Or my >great-granny's? <snip> > > >

Absolutely. We should be looking for the facts--not judging people. They did what they did. Just like we do. And sometimes there was a gap between what they said and what they did. Just like there is with us. I did find myself smiling, though, when politicians exhorted us to return to Victorian values. Er...which Victorian values, exactly, Mr Major? The Queen's? Or my great-granny's? Sometimes, though, I do judge people--as winners. Here is the story that took part of the family to Lancashire. Rosina Crawley was born in 1831 in the Workhouse in Islington, Middlesex and baptised in St Mary's Parish Church in Islington. Her mother, Louisa Crawley, was 17 at the time and unmarried. Louisa said Rosina's father was Arthur Hemp, a horse dealer from Beckenham, and the Poor Law people believed her because they made an affiliation order against Arthur under which he had to pay 2/6d per week for Rosina's upkeep. In fact, he only paid it when he was sent to jail for debt. Louisa went on to have two more children, though not straight away - they were spaced out and almost certainly had different fathers. We have to accept the possibility that Louisa was on the game. The first child after Rosina was Matthew Crawley Challenor - or that's what she said later he was called - but no such birth was ever registered. The final child was Agnes Challenor - but I have seen Agnes's birth certificate and she was registered as Agness Crawley. The name Challenor only appears three times. First, in the 1851 Census, when Louisa calls herself Louisa Challenor and claims to be a widow - but there is no sign of a wedding in the ten years before that, she was Louisa Crawley in the 1841 Census, and nor is the death of a Henry Challenor or Matthew Challenor registered. Second, when Matthew marries - on his marriage certificate he says he is the son of Matthew Challenor who is conveniently dead. And, third, when Rosina marries Henry Walters, claiming to be Rosina Challenor and, like Matthew, saying that her father is dead (although she calls him Henry and not Matthew). Frankly, I think Henry Challenor was a figment of Louisa Crawley's imagination. At 17, she was a single mother in the Islington Workhouse. On her death at the age of 63, she was living in comfort in Birkdale, which is really quite a posh area, with a son-in-law who employed eight people. My guess would be that the Walters family disapproved of a serial unmarried mother. Which does, of course, raise the question: How did Rosina land Henry Walters in the first place? How did they even meet? Well, we can't know how they met. But when they married, Henry Walters was 35 and a printer and Rosina was a 21 year old brush maker who couldn't write her own name. I'd guess that Henry was a bit of a sad old bachelor, that Rosina was a looker, and that he fell for her and her mother made sure she got him. I can hear it now: 'That's not a half crown trick, Rosina. That's a meal ticket. Land it!' It also suggests an answer to the question: Why did they leave London and move to Liverpool? My guess, once again, is that the kind of society a master printer might move in would not take kindly to Rosina and her mother, so they moved 200 miles to a city where they were not known and invented a more polite history than the one they actually had. I look back at Rosina and Louisa, and I think, "Good onyer, girls." Rosina's grandchildren, btw, were models of rectitude and pillars of society. And then there was another great-granny, Agnes Williams/?/Marsh, born in 1868 in Aspul more than a year after the man named on her birth cert as her father, Enoch Williams, had died in a roof fall in Haigh Pit and three years before her widowed mother married William Marsh. She was born in the most dire circumstances but ended up married to a Pit Deputy in County Durham--and, as they used to say in Durham pit villages, "In them days a Deputy was a Deputy." The human capacity for survival is tremendous. (If it were not, given the desperate lives our forefathers led, none of us would be here). I shall be sorry to leave this discussion for the next few days but I fly today from Riyadh to Jeddah and I can't usually get online from the hotel I use there. They do, though, have the most wonderful fish, fresh out of the Red Sea each day. I wonder what Rosina would have made of that? John Lynch Hi, John, I recognise your story, but I cannot offer any explanation. My paternal grandmother was known to my generation after she had died as being hard on her children about sex before marriage. But, she had a son by her husband to be and was pregnant with her second child when they were married. On the other side, my mother's elder sister was unbelieving when her daughter pointed out that she must have been conceived before her parents were married. The first was a Proddy lady (I am not sure that is strictly acceptable today but ...) and the other was a Cat-olic I warn people searching the Censuses, etc., not to judge people, but to determine the facts. The stories have been interesting and confirm (to me, at least) the advice I offer. Thanks to all, Jim Lancaster (Bury, Lancs.)

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: ShellieGilmor Surnames: MASON Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.england.lan.general/317.417.4215.6046/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Dale, I just came across this posting and would like to share/talk about this family. I am a descendant of Sampson Mason (8th great grandfather) and would be interested in sharing and learning more. Do you have information past his parents? Thank you in advance, Shellie Gilmor Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board. <br>

Hi, John, I recognise your story, but I cannot offer any explanation. My paternal grandmother was known to my generation after she had died as being hard on her children about sex before marriage. But, she had a son by her husband to be and was pregnant with her second child when they were married. On the other side, my mother's elder sister was unbelieving when her daughter pointed out that she must have been conceived before her parents were married. The first was a Proddy lady (I am not sure that is strictly acceptable today but ...) and the other was a Cat-olic I warn people searching the Censuses, etc., not to judge people, but to determine the facts. The stories have been interesting and confirm (to me, at least) the advice I offer. Thanks to all, Jim Lancaster (Bury, Lancs.) -----Original Message----- From: John Lynch Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 8:24 PM To: lancsgen@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAN] Family history

There was a big change among (nominally) Protestant working class women at the beginning of the 20th century. My grandmother had eight children, 3 boys and 5 girls including my mother (born 1915--she had her 99th birthday this week). All the girls were brought up knowing that sex before marriage was utterly wrong, and all of them followed that advice. But Grandma hadn't. And nor had her mother. Or her grandmother. Or her great-grandmother. I see that pattern followed in most branches of my tree. I have often wondered where the change came from; I suspect that earlier generations operated along the lines still followed in parts of India: If I don't know this man/woman can give me children, how can I know there'll be someone to look after us when we're too old to work? But perhaps they were just uncontrollably randy. My Paddy ancestors were different. When my grandfather Lynch--born in England--married a Proddy Bedfordshire girl because she said she was pregnant (she may have thought she was, but no child appeared until they'd been married two years) he was cut off by his family and the rift was never mended. Of course, that could have been because the woman he married was as nutty as a fruitcake. And not in a nice way. John Lynch -----Original Message----- From: lancsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lancsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Vern Prescott Sent: 13 February 2014 16:31 To: lancsgen@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [LAN] Family history My mother told me that when she and my father were courting, they once stayed overnight at Dad's granny's in Liverpool. In the morning, Dad was about to go out somewhere, and stepped into the room where mother was still in bed to inform her of his plans. Granny saw him and she was not amused!! She gave Dad a stern lecture about how he was not to set foot in the bedroom of an unmarried woman. This was probably about 1927. In 1971, the last of granny's children died, and it was then discovered that granny had never married! She had given birth to 6 children, all illegitimate!!! Mother was quite surprised, in light of the lecture that Dad had received.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: SuBrouwer Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.england.lan.general/52639.2.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: One thing I found out in my family research was that if a child became orphaned, and an aunt or uncle took them in, the said aunt / uncle were called parents of the child in following census records, and the child would be called their son or daughter. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board. <br>

What a shame John, your family sounds very interesting indeed Terese On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 5:45 PM, John Lynch <john_the_genes@btinternet.com>wrote: > No, I'm afraid not. My great grandparents came (separately, as teenagers) > from County Cork to Highgate and Dartford. My line spread to Bedfordshire > and the North East but none went to Manchester. We didn't have any Davids. > And they aren't where the bastards came in--the Catholic Irish were all > married at least nine months before the birth of the first child. But those > mill girls in Lancashire and miners' daughters in County Durham--dear me > :-) > > John Lynch > > -----Original Message----- > From: lancsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lancsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of terese mcgrath > Sent: 13 February 2014 06:35 > To: lancsgen@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [LAN] Family history > > Hi John Lynch, I descend from a long line of Lynch's originally from > Ireland > but thereafter happily ensconced in Manchester. > Wondering if the names David Lynch 1794-1871 and his wife Eleanor Francis > Bab(b)ington 1798-1874 ring a bell in your line ? > Thanks > Australia > > > > > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > > Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No > fees! > > The list's administrator can be contacted at LancsGen-admin@rootsweb.com > > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LANCSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi John Lynch, I descend from a long line of Lynch's originally from Ireland but thereafter happily ensconced in Manchester. Wondering if the names David Lynch 1794-1871 and his wife Eleanor Francis Bab(b)ington 1798-1874 ring a bell in your line ? Thanks Australia On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 3:27 PM, John Lynch <john_the_genes@btinternet.com>wrote: > People look at me oddly when I say I'm descended from several long lines of > bastards, but the facts are the facts. > > John Lynch > > > >Plenty of 'ducks backside' stories in my family, which were all closely > guarded secrets. I guess before television, gossip must of been the number > 1 > form of entertainment! I have a feeling that when they came to Canada, > they > also wanted to escape the >ridged class systems that held them down in > England. > > > > > > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > > Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No > fees! > > The list's administrator can be contacted at LancsGen-admin@rootsweb.com > > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LANCSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: Sumi48 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.england.lan.general/52639.2/mb.ashx Message Board Post: >From the 1911 census Name: James Daniels Age in 1911: 50 Estimated birth year: abt 1861 Relation to Head: Head Gender: Male Birth Place: Billinge, Lancashire, England Civil Parish: St Helens County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Street address: 462 Sutton Heath Rd Thatto Heath St Helens Marital Status: Married Occupation: Coal Miner Hewer Registration district: Prescot Registration District Number: 456 Sub-registration district: St Helens ED, institution, or vessel: 40 Piece: 22794 Household Members: Name Age James Daniels 50 Ann Daniels 50 Muriel Isabell Daniels 3 Muriel isabell is down as daughter but surely James and Ann too old to be her natural parents.....adopted? They have had 3 children and still alive but can't see any connection to Harriett Taylor. A Murial I DANIELS married a Stanley BARLOW in 1934 and Murial I BARLOW with birth date 10 Dec 1907 died 1994 registered Wigan Sue Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board. <br>

:-) John Lynch John your last e mail tickled me - I can't stop giggling. Pamela PS It's nice to know that mine wasn't the only family who couldn't keep their knickers on!!!

John your last e mail tickled me - I can't stop giggling. Pamela PS It's nice to know that mine wasn't the only family who couldn't keep their knickers on!!!

I forgot to mention the Bedfordshire straw plaiters. They couldn't keep their knickers on if their lives depended on it. John Lynch What a shame John, your family sounds very interesting indeed Terese On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 5:45 PM, John Lynch <john_the_genes@btinternet.com>wrote: > No, I'm afraid not. My great grandparents came (separately, as > teenagers) from County Cork to Highgate and Dartford. My line spread > to Bedfordshire and the North East but none went to Manchester. We didn't have any Davids. > And they aren't where the bastards came in--the Catholic Irish were > all married at least nine months before the birth of the first child. > But those mill girls in Lancashire and miners' daughters in County > Durham--dear me > :-) > > John Lynch >

My mother told me that when she and my father were courting, they once stayed overnight at Dad's granny's in Liverpool. In the morning, Dad was about to go out somewhere, and stepped into the room where mother was still in bed to inform her of his plans. Granny saw him and she was not amused!! She gave Dad a stern lecture about how he was not to set foot in the bedroom of an unmarried woman. This was probably about 1927. In 1971, the last of granny's children died, and it was then discovered that granny had never married! She had given birth to 6 children, all illegitimate!!! Mother was quite surprised, in light of the lecture that Dad had received. On 13 February 2014 09:48, Elizabeth Evers <elizabethevers53@gmail.com>wrote: > Greetings from Alabama... > > OK guys here's another....... > My mom had a first cousin that for years came every holiday to stay with > them. Mom and siblings loved this cousin, my grandad loved this cousin, my > grandmother tolerated this cousin. Mom and siblings couldn't understand why > their loving mother felt this way. > > Years pass and mom a teenager finds her parents arguing and like most > teenagers stays out of sight and listens. Turns out this instead of keeping > knickers up LOL my grandfather couldn't keep his pants zipped. > > Even nearly 90 years later the family want it hushed...me I am a firm > believer secrets end up destroying families so refuse to hide the good, bad > and the ugly > > I find out that my grans sister died shortly after my moms cousin was born > and before grandad married gran. So truthfully don't get the shame. > > Another story about the goings on in Lancashire. > > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 8:31 AM, John Lynch > <john_the_genes@btinternet.com>wrote: > > > :-) > > > > John Lynch > > > > > > John your last e mail tickled me - I can't stop giggling. > > Pamela > > PS It's nice to know that mine wasn't the only family who couldn't keep > > their knickers on!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > > > > Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No > > fees! > > > > The list's administrator can be contacted at LancsGen-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > LANCSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > > Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No > fees! > > The list's administrator can be contacted at LancsGen-admin@rootsweb.com > > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LANCSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

..........clearly she had learned from her own experience, and was just passing on the lessons...........!! Regards Stephen Thwaite NZ //// ________________________________ From: Vern Prescott <vprescott@gmail.com> To: lancsgen@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, 14 February 2014 5:30 AM Subject: Re: [LAN] Family history ....[snip].... Granny saw him and she was not amused!! She gave Dad a stern lecture about how he was not to set foot in the bedroom of an unmarried woman.  This was probably about 1927. In 1971, the last of granny's children died, and it was then discovered that granny had never married!  She had given birth to 6 children, all illegitimate!!!  Mother was quite surprised, in light of the lecture that Dad had received. On 13 February 2014 09:48, Elizabeth Evers > Greetings from Alabama... .....[snip].... Turns out this instead of keeping knickers up LOL my grandfather couldn't keep his pants zipped.