I have been following the comments regarding Maisie's thoughts on DNA testing and her genealogy; regarding Cliff and other's offerings, especially now that the Haplogroup R-M222 has been mentioned. I am both a long term old fashioned genealogist but a few years ago, I got involved with DNA testing to bring both proof and truth to my "paper findings". Although it has cost much money to test the many people I needed to test over these years, these tests have revealed information that I could never have gleaned from my paper trails. To this end, I have met (in person and via email) many people deeply involved in Genetic genealogy plus now administer numerous Surname projects with Family Tree DNA - all voluntarily. DNA testing (especially of the men) is so invaluable that prior to my travelling through Lanark and the Lothian areas of Scotland earlier this year seeking further paper trails/proof of my family from those areas, I asked if any male of either the RIDDLE or the RIDDELL surname would be interested in meeting with me and taking a free DNA test. There was utter silence. But that offer still holds, although it will now be by post. And so to my reason for posting this message. When I saw the interest turn to M222, I contacted my friend Susan Hedeen who has done much research on this Haplogroup (coupled with genealogy of this area of Scotland), and asked would she be willing to share her knowledge. The following is her response - for which she has given me full permission to post. (Sadly, her attachment will not come through, but if you email me, I can send it directly. I encourage this because she truly knows what she is talking about… and this is such an important issue for those who are looking at the Scottish or Irish or Viking ancestry). Kind regards Gail Riddell Dear Gail, You may forward this response in its entirety inclusive of the attachment. In regard to whether or not R-M222 had presence in England and whether or not there may have been Viking association, the answer to both questions is yes. Let's discuss the 2nd first. There was a culture in Atlantic Argyll known as the Gal Gaedhil. This culture has been thought by some to be Gaelic speaking Vikings while other historians more carefully describe them as a cooperative of both Vikings and Gaels; because they also spoke Gaelic, the term Gal Gaedhil, seemingly coined in old manuscripts of Ireland (this spelling one of several variants), literally means foreign Gael. Of course being a mix of Viking and Gaels speaking Gaelic would be considered in Ireland as foreign. Atlantic Scotland was known to be a hot bed of the Gal Gaedhil eventually coalesced in the SW Scotland area of Galloway, hence also known as Gallowglass. The Islands in the Firth of Clyde being in that hot bed of Atlantic Argyle were also in the center of the Kingdom Dal Riada. The entire area saw a mix of cultures all at the same time: Britons, Picts, Gaels, Irish, Vikings...and as mentioned, a cooperative, the Gal Gaedhil. A suspected historical reference of Viking descent and YDNA of R-M222 is entirely consistent potentially with the Gal Gaedhil, of course theoretically. For references, two recent books which discuss some of this are the first 2 volumes of the New Edinburgh History of Scotland: From Caledonia to Pictland to 795, James Fraser, University of Edinburgh and From Pictland to Alba, Alex Woolf, University of St. Albans. These books are highly referenced with citations from original manuscripts, historical reviews, archeological and linguistic studies...well researched, well written and in my opinion, a 'must read' for all those interested in the history of the Isles, in particular the populations of Scotland and its neighbors, England and Ireland. Another authority worth scouting out, is Thomas Clancey. To add a bit of flavour in tying England to this, please note a communication from a research associate, Alan Millikin, regarding this subject. I am going to insert here his entire communication regarding this (I have highlighted some particularly important aspects in red): "I have created a map tonight, which I trust illustrates visually those areas or locations that have been identified by scholars to show the earliest movements of the Gall Gaedhil in the Firth of the Clyde area into modern Galloway. The map is located at the foot of the following page, which I have placed there temporarily. _Scottish M222_ (http://regarde-bien.com/scottish-m222.htm) Firstly, you will note on the map, I have circled three distinct areas in red that preserve the highest concentration of R-M222+ Surnames with some known to have origins going back over 500 years plus. Some of these surnames may hold clues that if linked together, push the history of the R-M222+ in Scotland back to a period that pre-dates the 1100s. This however is for another email. On the map, I have highlighted that area in modern Wigtownshire identified as Na Renna, which is associated with the Vikings of Dublin. This is contrasted against that area in Kirkcudbrightshire that seems to have been in the possession of the Gall Gaedhil about the same time the Norse held Na Renna in the 11th century. It has been shown that earliest extant record that gives a firm geographical location to the Gall Gaedhil is found in the Martology of Tallaght. It refers to St. Blann of Kingarth in Bute in a marginal note, which has been dated by different Irish scholars to the 10th century. However, some date it to the mid 800s... Clancy discusses in detail the significance of this reference and its context in relation to the collapse of Dumbarton Rock, the capital of the kings of the Britons, which the Vikings sacked in 870... St. Blann of Kingarth is highlighted on the map as no. 2, and as will be noted the Island of Bute lies on the Firth of the Clyde. By 1034, we have the first clear reference to a king of the Gall Gaedhil, 'Suibne mac Cinaeda, ri Gallgaidhel', who died in that year. The extent of his kingdom is uncertain, but the evidence emerging in the first part of the 12th century suggests the territory of the Gall Gaedhil, included, the Irvine valley (no. 4) and from other sources, the district of Kyle and Carrick also in Ayrshire, 1130-41. There are other interesting texts that are not quoted by Clancy in English sources. For example, the men of Galloway, the Galwegians, are called ‘ vassals’ of Malcolm III when they took part in his military campaign in northern England c.1070. This reference is found in Ailred of Rievaulx’s On the Saints of Hexham. In Ailred’s account of the Battle of the Standard in 1138, fought by King David I against the northern English, he narrates a dispute that broke out in the Scottish camp, when the king gathered ‘his earls and highest nobles of his realm’ to discuss his battle strategy. The dispute was about who would lead the vanguard with the king’s own preference being his knights and armed men. The context of the narrative clearly implies, the leaders of Galwegians were amongst the King’s earls and the highest nobles in his realm. At this meeting of earls and nobles, the Galwegians opposed the king’s plan to place his knights and armed men in the front column, saying that it was their ‘ right to fill the front line, [and] to make the first attack upon the enemy’ , a right that has puzzled some historians, since the Hiberno-Norse are believed to have been independent of the Scots. The word ’right’ suggests the Gall Gaedhil did not regard themselves as being distinct from the Scots, so much so, their appeal to the king that he ‘ grant’ them their ‘right’, points to a relationship based on some form of military obligation to the king of Scots, probably similar to that held in the time of Malcolm III. After the intervention of Malise, earl of Strathern, the king reluctantly granted the Galwegians their wish. If we are to accept the chronicles, when the Galwegians lead the attack, they joined the great cry heard from the Scottish camp, calling out ’Albani’, ‘Albani’. In the light of the revised thinking that the Gall Gaedhil in Ayrshire, Kirkcudbrightshire and Nithsdale are more likely to owe their origins to the Norse-Gaelic speaking areas in the Firth of the Clyde, the Galwegian ‘right’ in 1138 to lead the Scottish vanguard becomes believable and more realistic. The push then, is one that points directly to a southward progression out of the Bute/Cowal and Firth of the Clyde basin in southern Argyleshire, with gains probably made after the collapse of the kingdom of the Britons of Strathclyde/Cumbria in the middle of the 11th century. This picture makes sound sense, and connects not only the R-M222+ in Kirkcudbrightshire and Nithsdale with southern Argyleshire, it also draws another link with Perthshire, which raises the question, could all these M222+ clusters share a much earlier ancestry that lies in southern Argyleshire? Alan Now to further this a bit, I will attach a Report I wrote in 2012 from YDNA analysis of certain M222+ lineages from SW Scotland and Bute in comparison to a N. Ireland lineage associated with the Ui Neill R-M222. Anyone interested in R-M222 should get much better understanding of the complexities of this sub-clade, particularly the reality that it is not simply an Irish defined YDNA. See attachment. Now to the first question regarding England specifically. Recently Scotland's DNA announced confirmation of R-M222 down stream SNPs. Previous to posting James Wilson's proposed R-M222 SNP tree, let me mention that DF85 (Scotland's DNA names S675/S673--equivalents) and DF97 discovered down stream of R-M222 in 1000 genomes data by geneticist, Andrew Grierson are available for single SNP testing for $39.00 each from the advanced testing SNP catalog at FTDNA. I strongly encourage M222+ people to test at least DF85, and if positive, DF97. Due to the number of samples viewed by Andy, it is anticipated that 25% of All confirmed R-M222 may be positive for DF85, and 12.5% may be positive for both DF85 and DF97. Because of STR foot print signatures, we are confident that the McConechy/Duncan identified with Isle of Bute (see the Report attached) will be confirmed of one or both SNPs, and we are awaiting their test results now. See below James Wilson's proposed SNP tree for R-M222. Now note the English samples. He goes further to say that he is changing his mind as to the origins of R-M222, and is now speculating England, perhaps NE England as a geographical location for the man who first mutated. This is no news to me, as you know. The 2 year research project which I and Anatole Klyosov began in 2011 using the public data base results revealed the oldest ages for R-M222 among the results of English descendants who were confirmed as R-M222 in their YDNA. We have been working on a paper which is yet not published. I see Wilson's work as a validation of our research regarding the STR analyses. "Hot news from Jim Wilson today. Jim noted that initial Chomo2 results included M222+ individuals from the following backgrounds:" * tested ten men with grandfathers from NE Scotland and Scottish surnames * ten men with English grandfathers and English surnames * eight men with grandfathers from NW Ireland and Uí Néill surnames * plus a few others Jim also said S592 and some of S555-S567 may be private. Jim went on to say: ---Quote (Originally by Jim Wilson)--- As I said, what is quite exciting is that we can now split the M222 group up into 12 subgroups, at least eight of which are of substantial size, having been seen in at least two unrelated individuals! Even more interesting is the distribution across geography - I freely admit numbers are rather small at the minute - but the S568 and possibly S588 groups look to be quite enriched for Scots and the S668 group has 4 or 8 men with grandfathers from NW Ireland and Uí Néill surnames! Could this be a marker of Niall Noigiallach? All the Irish are derived for S661, whereas British examples are found in both S661, S568 and in the M222* paragroup, as yet ancestral at all subgroup markers. This could be taken as evidence for a British origin of the marker, as some have claimed. Again, numbers are far too low for any certainty at all, but these markers will allow these questions to be investigated in more detail, once large numbers have been genotyped. ---End Quote--- For more information on Chromo2, please see: http://www.scotlandsdna.com/demos/chromo2" I hope you find this helpful, Susan Hedeen