Morning Maisie and everyone else, Properly used, combining DNA testing and genealogical research can be extremely beneficial. Searching the male line combined with the 37 or 67 marker test can assist in jumping the hurdle of the brick wall so many of us walk into. In Clan Sutherland we have a written genealogy covering some 25-30 generations in Scotland (depending on which branch of the family is being considered). Within the 70 or so participants thus far, one group of 14 representing 20% is already dominating the results. That group, the Moray Firth Group match at some level and 10 match at 99+% over 20-24 generations. These matches are in relation to one group member who has the full written genealogy placing him in the 25th generation since Freskyn our founder in the early 1100s. For me as Genealogist, the task is now finding out which of around a dozen men on the main tree are the hitherto unknown ancestor of each of the group members. The DNA results assist me by indicating how closely most of these men are to one another using the TIP reports which produce % likelihood of a single shared male ancestor in ranges of 4 generations. Using the results for men whom I know are related and can be demonstrated on paper, I use as a rough! guide the 4 generations after the TIP shows 67% or more. In all cases this points to a group within 8-12 or 16-20 generations. A by-product of this is that we have discovered that an entire group of Clan Douglas men are an exact match and sure enough Freskyn and Willem De Duglis, founder of the Douglas clan were cousins. If the test is done under the FTDNA project, each member gets an account and can check matches across the entire project of many thousands of participants as well as specific members of specified groups. Our dominant Sutherland group are Flemish in origins. The second most prominent group who all share ancestry based in the Parish of Clyne (the village of Brora in Sutherland) are of native Celtic stock. There are also a handful who seem to have Scandinavian/North German roots. We also have the situation that 2 men who on paper are said to be 8th cousins cannot be related in the male line at all because they have different Haplogroups which is physically impossible IF they share a common male ancestor. Broadening the range of people tested will confirm which of two has a male ancestor who received some "assistance" in producing his family. Regards, Mark -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maisie Egger Sent: 08 October 2013 03:00 To: Cliff. Johnston; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Cliff, I was contacted by a woman who is the DNA coordinator, shall we say, of Ards Peninsula, Co. Antrim/Co. Down, Northern Ireland, where she says my surname Clint has its roots. She is the one who encouraged me to have a DNA test (brother’s swab) submitted to determine my roots as she was convinced that it was of an old Irish Celtic link. I think not as I believe the name, meaning hard, rocky surface, or such like, has its roots in Denmark or elsewhere in Scandinavia. The Vikings left a huge footprint in York, where a lot of archaeological excavations have been going on for years. There is a wonderful Jorvik Viking museum/center near York Cathedral. (It was my decision to go for the lowest DNA marker, by the way, though she recommended the 37 (?) one.) When I was researching my surname in past years ago, I found that the majority by this name did indeed come from York. There were a few spread around the rest of England and a handful or so in Northern Ireland. I couldn’t find any by the name in Dublin, another Viking historical area, or the rest of the Republic of Ireland. In Scotland, the name is an endangered species, few even in Southwest Scotland where I began to trace my lot in the 1700s. Much as I have no proof (as yet), I’m almost willing to bet that my great-grandfather was “seeded” by this dastardly fellow whose father was from York who seems to have sired two children that we know of, and maybe another two, sans a ring on the finger of any of the women he seemingly seduced...or maybe he didn’t. Maybe he was so full of charm, they fell for him! The so-called Celtic connection for my name is spurious, I think, and I’m hanging on to the notion that it definitely had Danish/Scandinavian/Viking roots. Does it help any that my father, his cousin and his mother (my father’s aunt), a nephew and his son, my sister, and I to some degree, all had ginger/red hair, fresh complexions (freckles!) and blue eyes. Does this bespeak a Scandinavian bloodline? One of the Lanark listers right this minute has made a trip by train from the north of England to York, Borthwick Institute, to see if she can in any way trace this Clint family that I could possibly be related to to the “parentless” great-grandfather. She is a phenomenal researcher and has done so much to help me get to the bottom of the elusive parentage. If the Kirk Session, Edinburgh, where she is hoping to go to next, does not have a record of my great-grandfather’s parentage, then I think that is the end of the line and I may as well give up the ghost...except for DNA testing. If I win the lottery...then Cliff you would have to interpret the results for me as I am as thick as a plank in this regard. Unfortunately, the Kirk Session records in Edinburgh are not online and one would require to go in person or hire someone to do research for you. Maisie ------------------------------------------------ Maisie, It sounds as if you may have tested as Celtic or even Anglo-Saxon, although my money is on Celtic. Some of the Celtic lines in the Isles are a nightmare of a puzzle to sort out as so many of them adopted the surnames of others, and in addition they were very mobile. This accounts for the mubblie-jumblie list that you received with no surnames matching yours. I've seen this before. Of course I only hear about the difficult ones to sort out, and I hasten to add that I can do almost nothing to help in these instances. I've got my hands full as it is with my own line. Don't give up on the one down in York. Follow up. You may receive a great treat. Then you'll be glad that you had your family Y-DNA tested :-) As for further Y-DNA test upgrades - probably not worthwhile at this point unless you received a list with a lot matches with no mutations. What is a lot? That depends upon the size of your pocketbook. I certainly would consider an upgrade to 32 markers, but I wouldn't go for any more than that. That will sort out some of the 12-markers matches and leave you with a meaty fillet to chew on :-) Good hunting, Cliff. From: Maisie Egger <[email protected]> To: Cliff. Johnston <[email protected]>; [email protected] Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Cliff, How I admire your “smarts” to untangle the different levels of DNA testing! I can talk the hind legs off a donkey, but my brain freezes at trying to unscramble the different levels of DNA testing, though you did your best to give a clear understanding. DNA testing is really not essential to me: there is no huge heritance among relatives in contention or the birthright of this or that human, and so on, so as I remarked, I’ll just stick with the “tree” plunking names/relatives*** on the different branches as they are found. I subscribed to the 12-marker at the “bargain price” of $39, but should have saved my money as all I’ve got out of it so far are lists of meaningless names, not one of which shares my surname. Thanks for taking the time to explain this to such as I who does not know which end is up where DNA testing is concerned. ***HOWEVER, there is one instance where DNA would be very useful where there is a possible family connection with its roots in York, one of whose descendants is still living in southwest Scotland (a direct descendant) and then my own male relatives in Lanarkshire whose DNA could be checked to see if one is from the other, but I am too inept about following through on this, plus the expense. I’d rather use the money to hire someone to paint the bathroom! Maisie ---------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cliff. Johnston Maisie, We get what we pay for with Y-DNA testing, only the testing companies do not tell us that ;-) As I have said elsewhere many times, the only company worth testing with is FTDNA. They have the largest and best support system. Period. Here is my take on the different tests available (my opinion only): 12-markers test: just whets your appetite for more testing. About the only ones who get useful information from this test are National Geographic and the I haplogroup Johnston/es [said tongue-in-cheek as we do have a very distinctive Y-DNA signature - I can tell if you are kin by looking at the first 4 markers - the others are a bonus ;-) ] Not worth the effort to take, IMO, for genealogical purposes. 25-markers test: about as useless as the old saying that my grandfather used about bulls, teats and how worthless they were on a bull ;-) 32-markers test: helpful to eliminate more distant connections and reaffirm closer connections. A decent test, but has too many gaps. 67-markers test: the best test to take initially as it will put you on a family branch if enough have tested in your haplogroup for branches to start showing up. 111-markers test: we are still working out the value of this upgrade. So far it appears to be very useful for sorting close kin, say within 2-6 generations. If enough have this number of markers tested in your haplogroup it is very helpful. Should you test with any other company than FTDNA, you need to be aware that the alternative-company tests do not include all of the same markers as those done by FTDNA. This means that in order for one to compare an alternative-source company's Y-DNA results to that of FTDNA's results one will have to buy an additional make-up test from FTDNA in order to make a valid comparison. This takes more time in addition to more money. Good hunting, Cliff. From: Maisie Egger [email protected] I subscribed to the cheapest offering for DNA testing for my side, with my brother giving the sample. I don't really know what I expected, but was disappointed that all I got was a list of names from all over the shop, with not one sharing my surname.... ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message